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ShortBrutishNasty

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #50 on: August 29, 2019, 09:17:45 PM »
Well, let me jump back into the fray.  In some limited order:

1.  To Renerpho, Blumenkraft:  I am not Aspie myself nor am I a mental health professional.  I consider myself a well-read layperson.  And neurotypical.

2.  I love the kid to death.  Just precious.  Innocent as the day is long.  I don't think you can get a more dedicated and focused activist.  Great to see her safely across the pond!

3.  My chief complaint stems from the fact that PEOPLE WHO DRIVE 5 MILLION USD SAILBOATS ARE NOT THE GOOD GUYS.  Never were.  Never will be.  Google 'controlled opposition.'  AND AT SOME POINT, GRETA WILL FIGURE THIS OUT. 

4.  I don't know how climate activism first germinated in her brain. I don't know the machinations of how she first stood in front of the Swedish Parliament or was thrown on stage a year ago.  Wikipedia offers one account.  I don't know the machinations of how she got thrown on that boat.  I don't know any further details of her parent-child relationship. But we do know that her father and chief handler was on board.

5.  Upthread, someone asked why she is not already aware of this manipulation if she's so brilliant?  Response:  If you've never before seen a Rembrandt or been in the Rijksmuseum, you will have great difficulty forming an opinion about The Night Watch.  I don't know who her favorite blogger is or what she reads or to what extent her parents have sheltered her.  It's all a matter of exposure and subsequent learning curve.

6.  Upthread, I described her and Asperger's folks generally as lacking an emotional filter.  I don't know exactly where she is on the spectrum.  There haven't been many details of her diagnosis disclosed.  I don't know if she has meltdowns.  At a minimum, all the videos I've seen of her and the Wiki- conclude she's very blunt.  So I conclude, once again, that when she realizes she's being co-opted, she will refuse to play along and you won't see her anymore.



rboyd

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #51 on: August 29, 2019, 09:19:38 PM »
The people here speculating about Greta being manipulated are pathetic.

If you bothered to watch her interviews and have capacity to understand peoples motives then you would know she is doing this because she believes in what she is doing and rather than being manipulated she is influencing the people around her.

I call you all pathetic because this young girl is actually making a difference and your here wining that building the yacht that she's sailing on had some carbon emissions. Really, she made the best choice she could about how to travel to the US where she probably will make even more a of an impact and all you can do is whine about this.

This seems like the denialist bullshit that doesn't gets past Neven's moderation for very long.

NevB I am glad you said this; perhaps you said it better than myself.  I do not like to post negative comments on this forum, however I believe this is one time it is justified.  The pathetic losers who are saying disparaging things about Greta need to crawl back down the holes they came up from.  There is no room on this forum for such pathetic losers who cannot get over seeing someone, in this case Greta, making a huge difference bringing forth the critical climate message that needs to be delivered to policy makers.  Greta is a bright light in the gathering darkness.  She has my full support for what she says and for her actions.  Go Greta, you go girl, go!

Get over yourselves, and quit the ad hominem attacks on other contributors which have no place in this forum. You can disagree with another's point of view but not attack them personally. That is one of the things what makes this forum one of the best (and kudos to Neven for keeping it that way).

The issue is not Greta personally, but the power structure which works to co-opt such individuals and celebrate spectacles of change to remove any momentum from real fundamental change. The powers that be listen, publicly celebrate the individuals energy and earnestness, then go on as before. Unfortunately the elites have become extremely good at this (a bit like the Roman elites with "Bread and Circuses") aided greatly by the media saturation and small attention spans these days.

I was in 350.org for a while until I realized that all the marching etc. may have provided "feel good" feelings but did not make any real difference. These organizations tend to burn people out after a few years when they see that nothing is being achieved. If they get truly threatening then the state will attempt very violently to shut them down, as with Occupy Wall Street and the anti-globalization demonstrations around the beginning of this century (9/11 and the resulting "war on terror" helped greatly in the state's shutdown of the latter). I wish it were different, but until we get a large scale crisis (economic crash or climate escalation) the state will be able to continue on business as usual.

"First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. And then they attack you and want to burn you. And then they build monuments to you." (Nicholas Klein, US union organizer in early 1990's, many times misattributed to Ghandi who never said any such thing). None of this applies to Greta, who certainly has not been ignored from day 1 nor mocked by the elites, a good sign of co-option and elite usefulness. Greta may wake up to this, as she seems to be quite an intelligent person, but if she then goes "off message" too many times she will quickly be disappeared from the media spotlight.

The Dark Side of Globalization: Why Seattle's 1999 Protesters Were Right

Quote
In 1999, my friend moved to Seattle, where he was hit with rubber bullets, tear-gassed in the face, and nearly arrested by police. He had joined the famous protests of the WTO Ministerial Conference, widely known as the Seattle Protests. The Occupy Wall Street of their time, they focused on globalization rather than the excesses of finance. And, quite like the Occupy Wall Street of their time, they were often mocked by critics as silly, aimless, and overly hand-wringy about the future.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/01/the-dark-side-of-globalization-why-seattles-1999-protesters-were-right/282831/

The shocking truth about the crackdown on Occupy

Quote
So, when you connect the dots, properly understood, what happened this week is the first battle in a civil war; a civil war in which, for now, only one side is choosing violence. It is a battle in which members of Congress, with the collusion of the American president, sent violent, organised suppression against the people they are supposed to represent. Occupy has touched the third rail: personal congressional profits streams. Even though they are, as yet, unaware of what the implications of their movement are, those threatened by the stirrings of their dreams of reform are not.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/nov/25/shocking-truth-about-crackdown-occupy

« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 09:37:02 PM by rboyd »

rboyd

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #52 on: August 29, 2019, 09:40:35 PM »
So I conclude, once again, that when she realizes she's being co-opted, she will refuse to play along and you won't see her anymore.

Exactly.

blumenkraft

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #53 on: August 29, 2019, 09:53:11 PM »
ShortBrutishNasty, your post is riddled with made-up premises and wrong assumptions. It's only in your head.
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #54 on: August 29, 2019, 10:14:36 PM »
Greta Thunberg made it to New York emissions-free – but the ocean doesn’t yet hold the key to low-carbon travel
https://theconversation.com/greta-thunberg-made-it-to-new-york-emissions-free-but-the-ocean-doesnt-yet-hold-the-key-to-low-carbon-travel-122518
Quote
Until then, journey time will remain the primary barrier to low-carbon ocean travel. For now, the only answer for most of us wanting to minimise our impact on the planet is to minimise how much we travel across it – especially when it comes to crossing vast expanses of water.
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

rboyd

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #55 on: August 29, 2019, 10:30:05 PM »
Greta Thunberg made it to New York emissions-free – but the ocean doesn’t yet hold the key to low-carbon travel
https://theconversation.com/greta-thunberg-made-it-to-new-york-emissions-free-but-the-ocean-doesnt-yet-hold-the-key-to-low-carbon-travel-122518
Quote
Until then, journey time will remain the primary barrier to low-carbon ocean travel. For now, the only answer for most of us wanting to minimise our impact on the planet is to minimise how much we travel across it – especially when it comes to crossing vast expanses of water.

It wasn't really until the 1960s that the majority of the population started to consider such travel as normal. It now seems to be embedded in our culture that flying all the way to Thailand etc. from Europe of North America is something that people should do. Then of course, we have the rapidly expanding Chinese affluent looking to copy their western counterparts. I remember a documentary about a German couple attempting to be carbon neutral - giving up the annual vacation to a faraway place was the hardest thing for them.

TerryM

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #56 on: August 30, 2019, 01:42:20 AM »
Do any recall Marjoe Gortner, his early upbringing - and the havoc created when he broke his leash?


She's a child, and deserved a chance to live as a child.
I wish her the best.
Terry

VaughnAn

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #57 on: August 30, 2019, 05:47:33 AM »
The people here speculating about Greta being manipulated are pathetic.

If you bothered to watch her interviews and have capacity to understand peoples motives then you would know she is doing this because she believes in what she is doing and rather than being manipulated she is influencing the people around her.

I call you all pathetic because this young girl is actually making a difference and your here wining that building the yacht that she's sailing on had some carbon emissions. Really, she made the best choice she could about how to travel to the US where she probably will make even more a of an impact and all you can do is whine about this.

This seems like the denialist bullshit that doesn't gets past Neven's moderation for very long.

NevB I am glad you said this; perhaps you said it better than myself.  I do not like to post negative comments on this forum, however I believe this is one time it is justified.  The pathetic losers who are saying disparaging things about Greta need to crawl back down the holes they came up from.  There is no room on this forum for such pathetic losers who cannot get over seeing someone, in this case Greta, making a huge difference bringing forth the critical climate message that needs to be delivered to policy makers.  Greta is a bright light in the gathering darkness.  She has my full support for what she says and for her actions.  Go Greta, you go girl, go!

Get over yourselves, and quit the ad hominem attacks on other contributors which have no place in this forum. You can disagree with another's point of view but not attack them personally. That is one of the things what makes this forum one of the best (and kudos to Neven for keeping it that way).

snippage---

I agree that attacks on on other contributors are not okay, so to help preserve this forum I edited my previous post in question here.  Normally, IMHO there are three categories of people where being blunt with them is justified: convicted criminals, corrupt politicians, and those who say disparaging things about someone who is doing great things.  This is an example of the latter.  Normally calling someone a name means you are actually saying what you think you called that person about yourself.  So, for example, if person "A" calls person "B" a dolt, then person "A" is actually calling himself or herself a dolt.  If you want to discuss this further post in the "Decorum" thread and I will respond there and that's all I'm going to say about that.

This thread, I believe, is for supporting Greta and celebrating her success.  Greta is doing things others aren't doing and needs our undivided attention and support.  So, Greta, keep it up, tell it like it is, and don't give up.

etienne

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #58 on: August 30, 2019, 07:17:44 AM »
I'd like to hear what the people who are so much against Greta see as solution for climate change.
Le monde has an article that I find really unfair
https://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2019/08/28/greta-thunberg-devrait-renoncer-a-precher-une-inaccessible-saintete-climatique_5503861_3232.html
They say more or less that Greta asks things that would make the developpment of poor countries impossible because only developped technical countries could have a low carbon footprint, the Mazilla being an example of zero carbon solution. They say that without airplanes and our consuption many countries would be lost and couldn't invest in low carb technologies.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 07:23:44 AM by etienne »

NevB

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #59 on: August 30, 2019, 12:44:49 PM »
So I conclude, once again, that when she realizes she's being co-opted, she will refuse to play along and you won't see her anymore.

Exactly.

If apparently she is being used and one day will wake up and go away and not be heard again, then what's the point of any protest at all?

The implication is the only people who are heard are those useful for the so called "elites", therefore anyone who is getting publicity should just shut up because their being used.

This leaves no possible avenue for any protest to be legitimate (oh how convenient), this leaves me very suspicious of the motives of people who say this.

Also the crew of the boat are doing whatever their doing in any case Greta has zero affect on what they do or don't do. Tying her to their issues also raises my suspicion.

PS Thanks to Vaughan for the kind comments

Rodius

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #60 on: August 30, 2019, 01:40:13 PM »
ShortBrutishNasty.... you really know very little about Aspergers.

Even your concept of people with Aspergers having more meltdowns and having less control over emotions than nuerotypical people is wrong. Even as a generality it is wrong.

I am Aspergers, and I have always been cool, calm and collected, probably less meltdowns than neurotypical kids and definitely adults.

Please stop talking about it, you really do not know what you are talking about in regards to Aspergers.

Next thing you will be saying is it is a scale or some such nonsense.
Let me be clear.
You either have it or you dont.
That scale that people go on about... as in high functioning or low functioning.... is utter bullshit that tends to come mostly from people who know very little about the topic.

Please stop mentioning it, you have no authority to and nowhere near enough knowledge about it.

The best you could do is think of aspergers as a different way of thinking with different levels of sensory input to most people. And leave it at that.

etienne

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #61 on: August 30, 2019, 02:51:01 PM »
I don't think that she was coopted, she was the only one there. Being alone, many people hope a lot of her, and at the press conference arriving in New York, I found that she was not trying get more people to follow her, but trying to get people to do something. We schould be fellows and not followers.

etienne

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #62 on: August 30, 2019, 04:48:02 PM »
The NYTimes has an opinion saying that she doesn't act in a democratic way.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/02/opinion/climate-change-greta-thunberg.html
I also believe that this is unfair.

blumenkraft

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #63 on: August 30, 2019, 05:01:04 PM »
Reminder: The NYTimes is also the rag called David Koch a philanthrope.

If you have a subscription, you might act now! Stop supporting corporate propaganda.

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”

TerryM

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #64 on: August 30, 2019, 05:04:32 PM »
The NYTimes has an opinion saying that she doesn't act in a democratic way.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/02/opinion/climate-change-greta-thunberg.html
I also believe that this is unfair.
We can't expect good publicity from that source apparently.


NYT usually supports the DNC - the ones who shied away from debating climate change.


I wonder if Greta could hold a televised meeting with some of the Democratic Candidates who won't be allowed to participate in the official debate. They could discuss their vision for the future with no preconditions regarding subject matter.
 
Perhaps in the same time slot?
Terry

rboyd

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #65 on: August 30, 2019, 05:07:54 PM »
This thread, I believe, is for supporting Greta and celebrating her success.  Greta is doing things others aren't doing and needs our undivided attention and support.  So, Greta, keep it up, tell it like it is, and don't give up.

All threads are for open discussion of the topic at hand, positive and negative or otherwise. This isn't a "fan" site. I have started threads where people challenge my statements, sometimes in quite blunt terms, and am more than happy with that. Being challenged is how we develop a deeper and more nuanced understanding of a subject.

blumenkraft

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #66 on: August 30, 2019, 05:09:19 PM »
Please stop talking about it, you really do not know what you are talking about in regards to Aspergers.

+1

Also, please stop talking about things you know little about in general. This is a scientific forum, not Facebook.
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etienne

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #67 on: August 30, 2019, 05:18:26 PM »

I wonder if Greta could hold a televised meeting with some of the Democratic Candidates who won't be allowed to participate in the official debate. They could discuss their vision for the future with no preconditions regarding subject matter.
 
Perhaps in the same time slot?
Terry

I wouldn't push her too much in political debates. She is very good at saying that we have to move, but I believe that she is not qualified to define what has to be done, excepted that fossil fuels have to stay in the ground. Discussing solutions is the best way to loose your credibility because solutions are local and not universals. I'm sure she has no problem with flying for firefighting.

blumenkraft

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #68 on: August 30, 2019, 05:22:24 PM »
Being challenged is how we develop a deeper and more nuanced understanding of a subject.

If you really want to develop a deeper and more nuanced understanding of a subject it might be a great idea to stop acting on assumptions. Your whole argument about Greta is based on an assumption you pulled out of your arse - there is no evidence for it whatsoever.
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”

blumenkraft

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #69 on: August 30, 2019, 05:28:03 PM »
I believe that she is not qualified to define what has to be done

Etienne, 30 years ago i was 16. If the world had listened to me back then, we wouldn't be in such a deep shit today.

Kinder an die Macht! (All power to the kids)

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etienne

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #70 on: August 30, 2019, 05:42:43 PM »
I believe that she is not qualified to define what has to be done

Etienne, 30 years ago i was 16. If the world had listened to me back then, we wouldn't be in such a deep shit today.

Kinder an die Macht! (All power to the kids)



The problem I see is that solutions are not the same everywhere. A gas cooker will save the forest in Haiti, but EU and US should go 100% renewable. Solutions should be discussed localy and I find that youth should keep the pressure to make sure that something happens. If you suggest something, there will always be a case where it is impossible.

etienne

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #71 on: August 30, 2019, 05:45:54 PM »
Of course youth and adults have to suggest together solutions, but I wonder what Alaska and Florida have in common excepted industrial products.

nanning

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #72 on: August 30, 2019, 06:04:13 PM »
Thanks blumenkraft.
Children are born as real humans everywhere because they are still without cultural programming.

This is from my expertise and on topic because it's about youth:
Youth should stop forcing themselves to join grown-up culture, because it's these days a very destructive hierarchical accumulation fantasy culture with low morality. I am not a grown-up in the sense that I consciously don't join that bad and simple way of living your life. You don't need to join.

The grown-ups killed and are still further killing your future.
They (grown-up consumerists) are trying every which way to dodge any guilt, to find other interpretations of the situation, follow ELSD news, finding other people to point to.
Just to not have to change themselves and to not have to face the danger of losing their addiction to the hierarchical accumulation culture; losing all their precious 'stuff' and their fantasy 'status'. They are afraid the modern 'dream' of progression will end because they don't see any alternative and are deeply addicted.

But the 'dream' of progression, is, of course, not real. Look at the real consequences.

ELSD=Erring on the Least Side of Drama.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell

TerryM

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #73 on: August 30, 2019, 06:06:07 PM »
Of course youth and adults have to suggest together solutions, but I wonder what Alaska and Florida have in common excepted industrial products.
Bad governance?
Terry

nanning

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #74 on: August 30, 2019, 06:27:53 PM »
^^
 ;D  :-\  :'(
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell

blumenkraft

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #75 on: August 30, 2019, 06:30:19 PM »
Of course youth and adults have to suggest together solutions, but I wonder what Alaska and Florida have in common excepted industrial products.
Bad governance?
Terry

Yes, that.  ;D

And a lag of a $150 carbon tax!
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rboyd

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #76 on: August 30, 2019, 06:39:14 PM »
Being challenged is how we develop a deeper and more nuanced understanding of a subject.

If you really want to develop a deeper and more nuanced understanding of a subject it might be a great idea to stop acting on assumptions. Your whole argument about Greta is based on an assumption you pulled out of your arse - there is no evidence for it whatsoever.

Once again the reaction of someone who does not like the message - attack the messenger. I already provided evidence of what happened to two movements that truly threatened elite interests, plus my own experience in 350.org.

The co-option and reorientation of the Greens toward neoliberalism in Germany is a good example - very sad. The same with the Labour Party in the UK, Margaret Thatcher's greatest legacy was Tony Blair. Its why Corbyn is constantly attacked and disparaged as he tries to take Labour back to its roots (the same with Bernie, Ocaz, Omar and Gabbard in the US). Many environmental groups have been co-opted through corporate and foundation (Ford foundation etc.) money, like giving green credits and endorsements to minor or even greenwashing corporate initiatives (the WWF is a good example, sadly even Greenpeace in some cases). Its really hard not to get co-opted as elite groups are very well funded, and very experienced at co-opting oppositional organizations (there is a whole literature on the co-option of NGOs by corporations, governments and foundations)..

Also look at the treatment of the burgeoning left movement in the US in the early C20th through the use of the WW1 espionage act and red scares. Same post-WW2 to shutdown non-elite interests (start with the McCarthy hearings and the DNC stealing of the VP nomination from the progressive Henry Wallace when it was obvious that Roosevelt was dying). Then of course Assange, Obama's record of locking up more whistleblowers than any other President ...

The patterns keep repeating.

Maybe you should remove your head from your arse and do some real research before making such intellectually lazy and personally abusive statements.

EDIT: How could I forget the Yellow Vests in France (brutally put down by police using such things as hand grenades and illegal detention against civilians), and the massive protests in Brazil against Bolsonaro's neoliberal policies? Oh yes, nearly complete western media blackout. But we get wall-to-wall Hong Kong protest coverage.

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/08/17/media-blackout-brazils-anti-bolsonaro-protests

https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/12/12/blacking-out-the-yellow-vests-on-cable-news-corporate-media-doing-its-job/
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 07:20:09 PM by rboyd »

oren

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #77 on: August 30, 2019, 06:49:05 PM »
So I conclude, once again, that when she realizes she's being co-opted, she will refuse to play along and you won't see her anymore.

Exactly.

If apparently she is being used and one day will wake up and go away and not be heard again, then what's the point of any protest at all?

The implication is the only people who are heard are those useful for the so called "elites", therefore anyone who is getting publicity should just shut up because their being used.

This leaves no possible avenue for any protest to be legitimate (oh how convenient), this leaves me very suspicious of the motives of people who say this.

Also the crew of the boat are doing whatever their doing in any case Greta has zero affect on what they do or don't do. Tying her to their issues also raises my suspicion.

PS Thanks to Vaughan for the kind comments
What NevB said.
I think the co-opting thing is nonsense. I personally know people who have been affected by Greta, people who never cared about environmentalism before. Co-opting shmo-opting, she is getting a message out. Nobody can make real change and big change - otherwise it would have happened a long time ago. So blaming Greta she is not pure and all-achieving is just stupid. Sorry.

blumenkraft

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #78 on: August 30, 2019, 06:54:18 PM »
Rboyd, here is not much in this statement i would generally disagree with.

But what has anything of that to do with that:

So I conclude, once again, that when she realizes she's being co-opted, she will refuse to play along and you won't see her anymore.

Exactly.

The narrative you guys spread is that Greta is somehow co-opted. There is no evidence for that. And there is no connection between Gretas motivation and your worldview. If anything there is evidence for the fact that she has her own brain.

So you either give us evidence for this bogus claim or take your social critique, which is not wrong, to another thread, please.
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”

rboyd

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #79 on: August 30, 2019, 07:01:43 PM »
Its called the "Manufacturing of Consent", Herman & Chomsky did a great book on it - and that was before the concentration of radio and tv, then google, facebook, twitter etc. (with content control by the NATO-affiliated Atlantic Council). How to steer the public towards the policies the elites are pushing ("Green Growth" with continued economic growth, fossil fuel use and massively profitable geo-engineering and other technology initiatives).

Greta and Extinction Rebellion just say "fix it" they don't make any statements about how, or much about the economic distributional impacts of proposed solutions. Perfect for the elites to come up with their solutions and claim "fixed" after burning out people's protest energy, then onto the latest Kardashion story ... The UN IPCC fulfils the same "keep the masses quiet while not taking any real action role" - a Western University (Canada) professor, Radoslav Dimitrov, wrote a good account of this:

https://mafiadoc.com/decoy-institutions-r-dimitrov_5c6ef8e7097c476f7b8b4585.html

The book:

https://www.amazon.com/Manufacturing-Consent-Political-Economy-Media/dp/0375714499/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=manufacturing+consent&qid=1567184402&s=gateway&sr=8-1

A free version:

https://archive.org/stream/pdfy-NekqfnoWIEuYgdZl/Manufacturing+Consent+%5BThe+Political+Economy+Of+The+Mass+Media%5D_djvu.txt

The documentary:



« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 07:12:53 PM by rboyd »

etienne

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #80 on: August 30, 2019, 07:30:33 PM »
So I conclude, once again, that when she realizes she's being co-opted, she will refuse to play along and you won't see her anymore.

Exactly.
Of course she is coopted to talk for example in Davos or in the UN, but it looks like she doesn't forget her aims. As long as school strikes continue, she will continue to be coopted because it's a way to limit contestation. From my experience, being coopted is an opportunity if you can stay free.

VaughnAn

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #81 on: August 31, 2019, 07:58:25 AM »
This thread, I believe, is for supporting Greta and celebrating her success.  Greta is doing things others aren't doing and needs our undivided attention and support.  So, Greta, keep it up, tell it like it is, and don't give up.

All threads are for open discussion of the topic at hand, positive and negative or otherwise. This isn't a "fan" site. I have started threads where people challenge my statements, sometimes in quite blunt terms, and am more than happy with that. Being challenged is how we develop a deeper and more nuanced understanding of a subject.

To clarify: I was attempting to refer to supporting her mission.  I was not able to find a mission statement for her, however, she does explain her mission fairly well here as well as sharing a few things about her life on the Ted Talk:

https://www.ted.com/talks/greta_thunberg_the_disarming_case_to_act_right_now_on_climate

Supporting her mission means having critical discussions about what she says as well as discussions about data that she uses to make her points.  Showing cause and effects by comparing newly available data with older data is critical to her discussions.  This forum can help her determine better ways to explain this data.  That's what I am talking about. 

Also, just knowing that there are other people on a similar page as she is can be a great help as well.

SATire

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #82 on: August 31, 2019, 02:49:43 PM »
To clarify: I was attempting to refer to supporting her mission.  I was not able to find a mission statement for her, however, she does explain her mission fairly well here as well as sharing a few things about her life on the Ted Talk:

https://www.ted.com/talks/greta_thunberg_the_disarming_case_to_act_right_now_on_climate

Supporting her mission means having critical discussions about what she says as well as discussions about data that she uses to make her points.  Showing cause and effects by comparing newly available data with older data is critical to her discussions.  This forum can help her determine better ways to explain this data.  That's what I am talking about. 

Also, just knowing that there are other people on a similar page as she is can be a great help as well.
You are so right VaughnAn. Greta's emotions are fed by science and reason and without any filter those emotions go straight inside me. That is her simple magic. Let us do what she does: Unite behind the science! Act. If someone wants to criticize her or anything which one may see behind her (What could be behind her other than science and panic? She is visually open without any filter due to Asperger...): Act better first, please.

Now I hope she gets viral in the Americas like she did in Europe. In Europe she politicized the young people like nobody else. "The Climate Crisis is solved - now start to act".

Her mission statement could be "Our house is on fire. I want you to panic. And act" - as she told us in Davos:
« Last Edit: August 31, 2019, 02:59:13 PM by SATire »

etienne

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #83 on: August 31, 2019, 08:05:44 PM »
This time an article I like in lemonde. It explains why the argents against Greta are not valid.

https://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2019/08/31/climat-les-habits-neufs-du-scepticisme_5504773_3232.html

rboyd

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #84 on: August 31, 2019, 09:06:59 PM »
This time an article I like in lemonde. It explains why the argents against Greta are not valid.

https://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2019/08/31/climat-les-habits-neufs-du-scepticisme_5504773_3232.html

Thank god for google translate! Labelling all those that question the Greta phenomenon as climate deniers is classic scapegoating propaganda. Not surprising given the source (Le Monde). Given away very early in the article.

Quote
It is no longer arguments against global warming that are attacked, but the personalities who embody and carry the mobilization denounces, in his column, Stephane Foucart, journalist at the "World".

Quote
Yet, in spite of the more than tangible character of the change underway, public conversation is always invaded by new forms of denial.

Florifulgurator

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #85 on: August 31, 2019, 09:16:29 PM »
Labelling all those that question the Greta phenomenon as climate deniers
Pray tell, how else to label? (Perhaps conspiracy theorists? But these are also climate deniers...)

rboyd

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #86 on: August 31, 2019, 10:17:50 PM »
Labelling all those that question the Greta phenomenon as climate deniers
Pray tell, how else to label? (Perhaps conspiracy theorists? But these are also climate deniers...)

1. Hard Climate Deniers: "natural cycles", "sun spots", "lying self-serving scientists" blah, blah, blah. - Trump administration, right-wing groups such as La Pen in France, Saudi Arabia, Russia

2. Soft Deniers: "climate change is happening, but we still have time to to fix it with eco-modernist and engineering solutions (including fanciful future technologies) and we don't need to stop exponential growth and we can still expand fossil fuel production (Tar Sands, fracking etc.). UN IPCC, WEF, Western European, Chinese, Indian, Canadian etc. governments, plus Obama administration and large corporations (including the media conglomerates who live off consumption-related advertising revenues).
- All the people unconditionally celebrating Greta.

3. Eco-Socialist / Realist: The rich have to drastically cut consumption (top 10-20% are the majority of the emissions - including all those WEF attendees and media moguls celebrating Greta) and costs should not be dumped on the poor/less powerful (like the French diesel taxes while at the same time cutting taxes for the rich, or the poor of Africa and India not having electricity).
- Kevin Anderson is a great example, and you certainly CANNOT call him a climate denier.





Charles Eisenstein - A Message to Greta Thunberg and the Youth Climate Strikers

Quote
And I would caution that there are powerful forces that would like to co-opt that energy and divert it onto things that actually don’t disrupt the status quo too much. This is not just some technical matter of finding alternative energy sources to keep civilization-as-it-is running to maintain business as usual. We live on a planet that is alive.

We could cut emissions to zero and if we continue to degrade the organs of this living being - the forests, the wetlands, the whales, the elephants, the fish, all of the beings on Earth, all of the ecosystems - then the Earth will still die a death of a million cuts. Even if we cut emissions to zero.

So be careful about getting diverted onto these, and used, to promote these technical solutions such as geoengineering, such as bleaching the sky a paler shade of blue with sulphur aerosols that reflect sunlight. Problem solved! If you’re going to keep the issue to a narrow matter of global warming, problem solved. Business as usual can continue and we’ve saved the world.

https://charleseisenstein.org/video/a-message-to-greta-thunberg-and-the-youth-climate-strikers/

My mixed feelings are put quite well by this woman, her comments about the Obama photo op. are very insightful. fyi: I do eat organic fish and meat, but I do agree with respect to industrialized agriculture and animal husbandry.



Can we please stop the bullshit labelling/ad hominems, and actually discuss points of view now?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2019, 10:37:46 PM by rboyd »

Florifulgurator

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #87 on: August 31, 2019, 11:44:08 PM »
Labelling all those that question the Greta phenomenon as climate deniers
Pray tell, how else to label? (Perhaps conspiracy theorists? But these are also climate deniers...)

1. Hard Climate Deniers: [...]
So you seem to agree: Greta deniers are climate deniers. (Roughly said. Beware the nuances.)

Can't watch video at the moment (slow connection). But from your quote it seems that Charles Eisenstein thinks Greta is stupid (or, doesn't have sufficient grasp of the whole climate picture, being just a school girl). Nope, Greta is of a different league (not a neurotypical with an intellect clouded by ego neuroses.)  What makes her different is exactly that she doesn't need such trivial advice.

Hmmm, reminds of my own theory of Greta hate: Greta is a public threat to the intellectually impotent elderly (40+) white male.
(I have seen it not just from right wingnuts, but even from hardcore hippies. Now I need to analyse Mr. Eisenstein...)

Apropos Kevin Anderson: On Twitter (4. Dec 2018) he says:
Quote
On climate change @GretaThunberg demonstrates more clarity & leadership in one speech than a quarter of a century of the combined contributions of so called world leaders. Wilful ignorance & lies have overseen a 65% rise in CO2 since 1990. Time to hand over the baton.
https://twitter.com/kevinclimate/status/1069993545023528960

rboyd

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #88 on: September 01, 2019, 12:32:31 AM »
Florifulgurator:
Quote
Greta is a public threat to the intellectually impotent elderly (40+) white male.


So much for an open intellectual discussion. Such puerile idiocy is astounding, and once again insulting the messenger. What can I say: you are welcome to your fantasy bubble. I will stop wasting my time dealing with such childishly idiotic statements and name calling from you.

Florifulgurator

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #89 on: September 01, 2019, 12:43:52 AM »
Hmm. Maybe I should have read the thread first... :) Haven't seen Greta-is-a-puppet theorists before who aren't also climate deniers...

Even your concept of people with Aspergers having more meltdowns and having less control over emotions than nuerotypical people is wrong. Even as a generality it is wrong.
Yes. Thank you!
And Greta seems a great example. I'm not very good at face reading (possibly due to mild Aspergers :) ) - but it sure looks like Greta has great control over her emotions: In her early speeches I have seen something mightily scared - but she didn't shit her pants, as the present moment of speech was more important. And I have seen her want to cry, on the spot, but the present moment of speech was more important to her. Methinks her emotional control is heroic.

This makes it even less plausible (and more ridiculous) to think that Greta would be handled or manipulated by anybody.

SATire

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #90 on: September 01, 2019, 12:53:37 AM »
People who criticized Greta were usually proven wrong. That is easy to understand since she is just pointing to the science. E.g. the liberal politician in Germany who told her to let the professionals do the job was told by >1000 scientists (the professionals) in public the she was right and he not.

Finally critics was about her outfit or that she would be responsible for the CO2 caused by a ship or that other people fly - just as if you would be responsible for a 100 mio jet and the car of the pilot in case you buy a ticket for an airplane...

So - we got though the bullshit here since a year. Act better than Greta or let her do her fantastic job without nasty noises! Let your children do school strike - school is futile without future anyway.

 

sark

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #91 on: September 01, 2019, 03:25:58 AM »
She's telling a fucked up story but it's true.  IN Sweden, and all over northern Europe and Britain they have been dealing with it, and now it has become perpetual, persistent, catastrophic climate variability starting, for them, around 2005.  Many people have been flipped by the experience of their own climate flipping away from them.  Similar to the way farms were ruined in Northern Europe, the US Corn Belt just suffered the same crop preventing rains.  Too wet and then extremely dry?  We are already basically fucked

Greta Thunberg got on a racing sail boat at the age of 16 and crossed the Atlantic, in this climate, to speak for the whole world.  She is completely glorious and a huge win for the human race & indeed, for all life on Earth.  already proven

There is to be expected trolling and Circustry around such an event.  We're sick.  People are rooting for collapse.  It's already visible outside of any window.  "How did it get this bad?"

Because we're unfit.

But I saw a young woman conquer the Atlantic on a little sail boat to speak to the world...
I am not a scientist

ShortBrutishNasty

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #92 on: September 01, 2019, 05:08:52 AM »
Hey, rboyd!  Tough crowd tonight, eh??!! 

Back in the 80s, I did some stand-up. I had some Reagan bits that killed!!  And hecklers??!!  Oh, yeah!!  That's character building!!!!  I would do it again.  Wait!-- Florifulgurator and I have a room tonite after the show.  I'm going to show her my etchings.... the denialist ones......  hahahaha!

It's this thing about being entertaining.  Putting a smile on the world's face.......  Ah, yeah.......  Most assuredly, about 90% of the crowd is really pulling for you!!  That's nice!!

And I have some collapse material that would make George Carlin blush!!!!

Monster thanks for being there, rboyd.  Take care.

Sincerely,

Short, Brutish and, dang!-- what was that third one????


VaughnAn

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #93 on: September 01, 2019, 06:32:44 AM »
Quote
"Our house is on fire. I want you to panic. And act"

Sounds like a great mission statement to me; as such, I hope she adopts it as her official mission statement.

blumenkraft

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #94 on: September 01, 2019, 08:51:07 AM »
Florifulgurator:
Quote
Greta is a public threat to the intellectually impotent elderly (40+) white male.


So much for an open intellectual discussion. Such puerile idiocy is astounding, and once again insulting the messenger. What can I say: you are welcome to your fantasy bubble. I will stop wasting my time dealing with such childishly idiotic statements and name calling from you.

Why do you find this insulting? It's an objective and correct statement not directly aimed at you. Or is it? 

Quote
Time to hand over the baton.

Saying kind of the same. Did you went on Twitter and told him this is a personal attack on you?
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”

Aporia_filia

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #95 on: September 01, 2019, 11:19:25 AM »
Sorry if I'm a bit persistent about asking you to think of human species as something different to human individuals. (I'll try to post a doc showing the difference between a bee hive and a bee as an individual).
It doesn't matters if you're wrong or right, but at certain  point we all love arguing about the sex of the Angels. When we all know they don't exist!!!
It is a social, very deeply attached, characteristic of us humans. The nicer speech (this involves a lot of speech's characteristics) will win social acceptation, giving a higher social status to the person who made it, even if he was just defending that all angels are female.
Greta is not as affected as the rest of us about this social behavioral primate's constriction. She wouldn't waist her time discussing Angel's sex. She's just telling what's important without a lot of the emotional restrictions the rest of us have.
Don't argue about angels and ACT!!!

SATire

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #96 on: September 01, 2019, 11:56:01 AM »



Can we please stop the bullshit labelling/ad hominems, and actually discuss points of view now?
I agree to your last sentence and would like to give it back to the people like the obviously good-willing woman in your video - I watched her 30 min whining with quite a few misunderstandings.

Greta is not telling the politicians what to do. She is telling politicians to do what they promised (e.g. 1990 in Rio and 2015 in Paris) and to do what the sciences worked out what should be done.
Of course the politicians benefit from meeting her since they get a picture which is interesting for the world. But Greta also benefits since she can impact a decision maker and possible distributor. And much more.
Judge by yourself, another 40 sec at Davos:

And at this press conference in Brussels Greta explains a bit why some people criticize FFF and say they would be puppets: To change subject away from climate crisis.

If you are "real progressives" please contribute with action and do not work against people who act. 1990 was the time to discuss what do do - emission trade or CO2 tax, 0 CO2 emission or carbon removal or mitigation. That time is over and we have 5 past 12. Now we have to do all of those things at once and fast. It is time to start action. So act. Do not stand in the way of people who are acting.

« Last Edit: September 01, 2019, 06:35:23 PM by SATire »

SATire

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #97 on: September 01, 2019, 04:50:02 PM »
Quote
"Our house is on fire. I want you to panic. And act"

Sounds like a great mission statement to me; as such, I hope she adopts it as her official mission statement.
Since those are her words in her <3 min pitch at the world economy forum in Davos your hope came true it seem. Watch and judge yourself:

VaughnAn

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #98 on: September 01, 2019, 07:13:53 PM »
Quote
Since those are her words in her <3 min pitch at the world economy forum in Davos your hope came true it seem. Watch and judge yourself:

Yes, Greta is on a mission.  I hope now more people listen.  Thanks for the video.

ShortBrutishNasty

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing
« Reply #99 on: September 01, 2019, 07:49:33 PM »
"Greta Thunberg, the green teen from Sweden who sailed on a racing yacht from Europe to New York City because she refuses to fly on a plane, did not speak on Friday at a “climate strike” protest at the United Nation’s headquarters. She marched with the few dozen young people that showed up but sat silently as protesters chanted and gave speeches."  Emphasis added.

Well, that didn't take very long, did it??  Smart girl.  Just can't stay on script.

Here she is, sitting silently, pondering how ridiculously ineffective that 15-day sailboat stunt was....  See the handler there to Greta's left?