Greta Thunberg's Atlantic crossing

[nanning]

^^
Ah, the times past, the-age-of-reason, when civilisation humans still had critical thoughts, courage and empathy.

[TerryM]

^^
There was a time when Greed was viewed as a reprehensible sin.
Poverty has taken Greed's place as the worst financial sin one can commit.


Committing the Sin of Poverty is acting directly in defiance of all that the West's values.
Poverty must be punished, not subsidized.


But if Poverty must be perpetuated for the greater good of sustaining Greed, then the impoverished must be hidden.


Hew down them tents my council
With all the speed ye may.
I, with two beside me
Will hold them bums at bay.


In yon encampment thousands
May well be stopped by three
Now who will stand
On either hand
and keep the peace with me?


Then out spake Studley Larry
From Ramparts, Proud was he.
Yo! I will stand at yer right hand
An' keep the peace with thee.


And out spake Dirty Harry
of Eastwood Blood was he.
"I will abide on thy left side
An' keep the peace with thee.


Apologies to all
Terry

[nanning]

If thou hast many belongings
from not sharing any things
Mammon shall shine on thee

the blinding light
of spreading plight
believe you me

because now wrong is right

nanning


Apologies to no-one

[rboyd]

The Greta et al seems to have been a lot more prevalent, as a Facebook glitch showed who was actually making the updates on Greta's page. Some damage limitation was attempted, but perhaps some of the rose colour has been wiped off some progressives' proverbial glasses.

Greta is a product, just like "green capitalism" and "eco-modernism" to sell a continued BAU covered by a veneer of greenwashing. Just like at the end of the Yellow Brick Road, we always have to remember to look behind the curtain. I am not blaming here, my problem is with the shit-hole adults around her.

We cannot cut emissions by 7% a year (what even the highly conservative UN is saying is required) by growing more trees (the research pretty much debunks that idea anyway) or playing at the economic edges. We will get massive (and massively profitable) geo-engineering instead blessed by Greta (or her dad, or that guy in India) and XR. The rich are already starting to reorient their invetsments toward "greentech".

[oren]

Rboyd, while I highly value your contributions in other threads on this forum, I strongly dislike your very strong negative language about Greta. I think Greta is doing a great service and is actually calling for very drastic measures. If they're not being implemented it's not for her lack of trying.
Calling her a product, throwing in greenwashing as well, is IMHO offensive.

[rboyd]

Oren, we can agree to disagree. This Bloomberg article about Greta puts the "establishment" view so well - making us (the elite) feel a little uncomfortable is ok, but no real radicalism please Greta! When I see the MSM actually start to get really upset and much less photo-ops with fake environmentalist elites and the WEF, then I will see the Greta phenom. in a different light.

Currently she is being used for greenwashing by many with the photo-ops with politicians, business people, WEF etc. who have no intention of making any real progress. This may change, maybe she throws off the minders and elite "helpers", we will see (we have certainly seen a little bit of exasperation at the reality of no real change) . Life for her will get a lot harder really fast if she does, the elite and their MSM are brutal will anyone they see as a real threat.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-10-09/planet-earth-will-pay-the-price-for-greta-thunberg-s-radicalism

To paraphrase an early twentieth-century trades unionist (and no its was not Gandhi - that is one of the worst quote attributions around):

- At first they try and dismiss you/make fun of you (or also co-opt you?)
- Then they try to burn you
- Then they erect (or murals and Time front pages?) statues to you

You can't start at step 3, it means you were never seen as a real threat to the status quo.

[gerontocrat]

Greta is just one person, and we can see the usual bunch of arse-lickers trying to turn her unique self and uniquely powerful message into a band-wagon they can jump upon.

I just hope she has that inner strength to remain herself and not be twisted into a caricature of herself by the Spin Factory.

[Neven]

Like Gerontocrat says, it can both be true: Greta is a sincere young person with a positive influence on collective consciousness, and there are forces behind her and around her that are trying to divert energy away from real systemic changes.

It would be something if Greta would call for a cap on personal wealth, but she is too young to connect all the dots. And she would lose support and attention very, very quickly.

I also share Gerontocrat's hope that Greta comes out of this unscathed. She deserves that.

[Tor Bejnar]

My fingers crossed hoping she goes back to school to primarily get a solid education, and that, when asked, she says, "Listen to X, Y, and Z, scientists who understand what is happening.  Here's their latest paper," (handing out a copy) in line with what she has done ever so many times before.

I, too, wish her well.

[blumenkraft]

geo-engineering instead blessed by Greta

Any link on that or did you make that one up too?

[rboyd]

Greta and XR etc. have all stated that what they want is the climate issue "dealt with" as a matter of urgency and a reduction in CO2 emissions (net or gross). This opens up the answer of "yes we hear you and take you seriously" followed by Solar Radiation Management (to reduce temperatures) and large scale negative emissions through whatever technologies can be made to work profitably (Bio-energy carbon capture and storage (BECCS), direct air capture of CO2 (DACS), reforestation financialized through offset credits etc.), plus "sometime in the future" plans for industry to go carbon neutral.

Basically an eco-modernist stop-gap to keep the status quo growth and economic structure wheels turning as long as possible. But it can be presented as giving Greta and XR exactly what they want, very hard for them not to praise those providing such an "urgent" solution. Greta's support has already been given (by whomever made the decision to do so) to the plant more trees stuff, which is deeply flawed scientifically.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/sep/19/greta-thunberg-we-are-ignoring-natural-climate-solutions

https://www.wired.com/story/trees-regenerative-agriculture-climate-change/

350.org (with start up funding from the big-elite Rockefeller Brothers Foundation) got largely co-opted when they worked with CERES ("a sustainability nonprofit organization working with the most influential investors and companies to build leadership and drive solutions throughout the economy" - i.e. big business and finance) to spend so much time on their disinvestment campaigns which are to all intents and purposes useless. Lots of activist energy wasted, including my own. Same with the climate marches - make lots of spiffy banners, come along, march around (even weld yourself to something and get arrested), feel good, then go home (or jail for a short time). This is the circus part of what the Romans called "Bread and Circuses" to keep the "rabble" general population compliant. Compare that to the treatment doled out indigenous people's explicitly blocking pipeline and other oil and gas infrastructure (like those at Standing Rock), or OWS when it was decided to shut them down (under the Obama presidency).

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/29/standing-rock-protest-north-dakota-shutdown-evacuation

Al Gore is running a large "sustainable" investment fund with pals from Goldman Sachs etc., pushing the market as the solution to climate change.

https://www.ft.com/content/1757dc40-486f-11e8-8ee8-cae73aab7ccb

Stating a reality that you may not like is not making stuff up, and tossing slurs and insults does not befit you. Skepticism is healthy, especially when someone rises magically from nowhere and is so thoroughly embraced by the groups that are the source of the problem. I do research, try doing some yourself.

[blumenkraft]

So, Greta is actually not advocating for geoengineering, right Rboyd?

[oren]

The politicians and the corporate elite will of course try to sideline and ignore Greta and her messages, just as they have done to countless other message bearers for decades. But when the silent majority finally rises maybe things will change.
Greta is only a schoolgirl who brought huge awareness to the climate crisis and affected the opinions of (tens? hundreds?) millions of people. She deserves all the praise she can get. If her messages are ignored you should put the blame where it belongs, on the politicians and corporate elite. Have your own messages been received and executed upon? I think not. So why diss her? Have you affected such numbers of people? I think not. At least she did.
She is not a product, she is just one person, lacking the power to make or cause a change by herself.
Maybe she will be beaten and give up later, maybe even sell herself somehow. This is understandable when facing impossible odds. That she hasn't done so yet tells a lot about her.
Praise, not unjustified criticism, is her due.

[nanning]

Greta Thunberg listens to scientist and I know that Kevin Anderson and others are saying "Yes, investigate geo-engineering but be very careful before applying it on a huge scale". All methods must be looked at to lower the future temperature rises, including geo-engineering.
I think she will stay to the core of the messages of scientists and, like XR, not be political (apart from perhaps calling out climate criminals).

On Thomson Reuters today I've read that Greta Thunberg has called for Siemens to abort their support and role in the development of the massive Adani coalmine in Australia.

I think Greta has a lot stronger character and integrity than many think or like to believe. She is extremely intelligent and I don't mean just abstract IQ.
I am so glad that according to her father in a recent Guardian article, she is now happy and out of depression. Dancing and laughing even. Brought tears to my eyes of happiness for her.

[P-maker]

All clever and thoughtful remarks.

In stead of focusing on one child and her successsful crossing of the Atlantic (twice), we ought to act as adults and move the focus to "Sustainable Childhood".

I was inspired today by a local radio podcast (in Danish), which made me think that children and their actions may be  the way to leverage action. There is a hell of a difference between blaiming us old folks and aspiring young folks to lead the transition towards a sustainable future for our children and grandchildren.

Our newly elected Prime Minister (Mette Frederiksen) in Denmark has made the children the crunx of her policies. Obviously she has neglected the fact that a "sustainable childhood" is the best thing we can give our children.

Let our common aspirations towards a "Sustainable Childhood" be a leading paradigm - eventually a new thread to replace this obsolet diversion from reality.

Let us not overwhelm a burden of guilt on those shaky Swedish shoulders.

[ShortBrutishNasty]

1.  What's with the jiu jitsu?  Rboyd clearly stated he is not blaming Greta--rather "the shithole adults around her."  BTW, Rboyd, "shithole" is not hyphenated.  You're welcome.

2.  And speaking of shithole adults, how 'bout this greenwashing work of art?  Makes you all warm and fuzzy inside, doesn't it?  Finally!  Something is being done!

[Florifulgurator]

I think Greta has a lot stronger character and integrity than many think or like to believe.

...or are even capable of imagining. Her integrity borders to insanity for mortal humans. (The only well-meaning criticism I heard, from my mom: "Greta is crazy")

1.  What's with the jiu jitsu?  Rboyd clearly stated he is not blaming Greta--rather "the shithole adults around her."

Which is, of course, blaming her indirectly. "Greta the puppet" is a conspiracy theory invented by shithole adults.

-----------------
Here is the above mentioned "she's happy again" interview:


------------------------
P.S.: Another interview with her father (starting 6:44) from a year earlier.  9:44 Greta's brutal logic against her mother.  And the logic that perhaps saved her life: "What is the point of feeling like this?"

[blumenkraft]

Which is, of course, blaming her indirectly. "Greta the puppet" is a conspiracy theory invented by shithole adults.

Which is, of course, the only thing ShortBrutishNasty does on this forum.

Better not feed the troll, Martin.

[ShortBrutishNasty]

Blümchen,

If I were to make a wild and unwarranted comment about your mother, that WOULD be trolling.  If, however, I were merely deliberating a point in controversy, that is NOT trolling.

https://unlcms.unl.edu/engineering/james-hanson/trolls-and-their-impact-social-media

Six months from now, you'll be going, "Hey, whatever happened to that Greta girl?"  Well, she's been quietly and efficiently co-opted.  As in co-opted.

I'm just parroting rboyd, and providing entertaining graphics to support my point--none of which was inflammatory.

And, if it helps any, my real name is:

Bob
 
P.S. And feeding trolls??  I'm certainly not the resident bot sabotaging/derailing ASIF on a daily basis with his/its extremely low-effort and largely off-topic post-bombing.  Why do people keep feeding that??

[Tom_Mazanec]

P.S. And feeding trolls??  I'm certainly not the resident bot sabotaging/derailing ASIF on a daily basis with his/its extremely low-effort and largely off-topic post-bombing.  Why do people keep feeding that??

And who would that be?

EDIT: I gave him a day to reply, and then tried to send a PM but I was blocked.
I assume he means me, but might not -
from a PM he sent me in September:

Your post-bombing has been a gross and blatant abuse of this forum's hospitality.

Effective immediately, please limit your posting to no more than three(3) posts per day.

Should you exceed this limit, further steps will be taken.

On or after thirty(30) days from now, you may petition me directly for a reconsideration of this limit.  At that time, we might discuss contributions by ASLR, Sigmetnow, and others.

So there are at least four others he may be referring to (ASLR, Sigmetnow, and "others").
I have an average of seven posts a day. What is "post-bombing"? Six posts a day? Five posts? Four?

"extremely low effort and largely off topic"? First, what is extremely low effort? Do we have to perform the research we post ourselves? Do we have to personally interview climate scientists? Second, I have made an effort to be on topic. That was why, when I started, I was posting climate news in 20 different threads. Neven told me to stop, and I immediately dropped it to one (and then essentially none). Neven told me to promote "interesting discussions". I have made an effort to do this. I have repeatedly checked with Neven to make sure my Forum behavior meets his approval. I am open to suggestions as to how to improve.

And BTW, that is not the sort of PM a member sends. Even if Neven was in communication with you, you do not send a PM like that unless you are an administrator and/or moderator.

[nanning]

blumenkraft I love you but I think you are sometimes a bit too outspokenly judgmental.

[blumenkraft]

Do you consider this to be a bad thing, Nanning?

[KiwiGriff]

https://www.tonyattwood.com.au/

From my clinical experience I consider that children and adults with Aspergers Syndrome have a different, not defective, way of thinking.

The person usually has a strong desire to seek knowledge, truth and perfection with a different set of priorities than would be expected with other people. There is also a different perception of situations and sensory experiences. The overriding priority may be to solve a problem rather than satisfy the social or emotional needs of others.

The person values being creative rather than co-operative.

The person with Aspergers syndrome may perceive errors that are not apparent to others, giving considerable attention to detail, rather than noticing the “big picture”.

The person is usually renowned for being direct, speaking their mind and being honest and determined and having a strong sense of social justice.

The person may actively seek and enjoy solitude, be a loyal friend and have a distinct sense of humour.

However, the person with Aspergers Syndrome can have difficulty with the management and expression of emotions.

Children and adults with Aspergers syndrome may have levels of anxiety, sadness or anger that indicate a secondary mood disorder. There may also be problems expressing the degree of love and affection expected by others. Fortunately, we now have successful psychological treatment programs to help manage and express emotions.

[Juan C. García]

https://www.tonyattwood.com.au/

From my clinical experience I consider that children and adults with Aspergers Syndrome have a different, not defective, way of thinking.

The person usually has a strong desire to seek knowledge, truth and perfection with a different set of priorities than would be expected with other people. There is also a different perception of situations and sensory experiences. The overriding priority may be to solve a problem rather than satisfy the social or emotional needs of others.

The person values being creative rather than co-operative.

The person with Aspergers syndrome may perceive errors that are not apparent to others, giving considerable attention to detail, rather than noticing the “big picture”.

The person is usually renowned for being direct, speaking their mind and being honest and determined and having a strong sense of social justice.

The person may actively seek and enjoy solitude, be a loyal friend and have a distinct sense of humour.

However, the person with Aspergers Syndrome can have difficulty with the management and expression of emotions.

Children and adults with Aspergers syndrome may have levels of anxiety, sadness or anger that indicate a secondary mood disorder. There may also be problems expressing the degree of love and affection expected by others. Fortunately, we now have successful psychological treatment programs to help manage and express emotions.

Great comment. 10 likes! (if I could give them). 

[kassy]

noticing the “big picture”

I like the quotation marks there. For a lot of people the big picture is ´do i look good here´ which is very different from problem solving.

[P-maker]

Kiwigriff,

Please make sure that you do not turn every concerned scientist into a person with Aspergers syndrome.

It is about time we call a spade a spade and not a vehichle of dung mobility...

[blumenkraft]

Please make sure that you do not turn every concerned scientist into a person with Aspergers syndrome.

You imply they did it in the first place, which didn't happen.

This was a perfectly fine assessment concerning Aspergers. Nothing more, nothing less.

[nanning]

When I see and hear the 'new' Greta these days, I cannot find anything that I don't recognize in myself, I see no syndrome, no abnormalities from the normal variations.
For some perspective: Most physicians are not scientists and in general don't have a high IQ. And psychology is not a real science yet (quote R.P.Feyman and I agree).

I was in this youngsters group where we were supposed to be 'highly gifted' and they all went around wallowing in that label, to the effect that when something was wrong or they didn't behave correct or didn't perform or anything like that, it was put down to that label of being 'highly gifted'. No more thinking and diversification. That is a barrier of your own making that hinders you to further naturally develop.

Perhaps Greta is 'cured'. Why not? A new diagnosis would be important to maybe get rid of the label. All those labels, and sweeping everybody with that label into the very same box, is not doing humans a favour in my opinion. No offence intended.


edit: changed "not very intelligent" to "in general don't have a high IQ" to remove the possible interpretation that physicians are not intelligent.

[Florifulgurator]

When I see and hear the 'new' Greta these days, I cannot find anything that I don't recognize in myself, I see no syndrome, no abnormalities from the normal variations.

Same here. The only "abnormality" I see is her stunted growth, perhaps due to her prior eating disorder?

However she might have simply learned to pretend to be "normal". Whatever, I regard her "condition" a gift - perhaps the next step in human evolution, as Dr Tony Attwood said. Attwood is the leading expert on Aspergers. E.g. he explains that Aspie girls are quite different to Aspie boys.

[KiwiGriff]

Nanning do this .
https://rdos.net/eng/Aspie-quiz.php
Pay head to the questions they have been  selected over many iterations  because they are highly correlated with the difference between Aspie and neural typical behavior.

Then consider if you want to be "cured" of being your self and how it makes you feel when someone suggests it ?

[kassy]

There are many kind of people and then there is the question of what you classify as ´diseases´or ´normal´. Or different behaviour types and then what you throw at that as a cure because even back in the early nineties DSM-III included a lot of shady BS mainly aimed at pill pushing.

Her thesis makes more sense then our current fossil fuel subsidy so who is crazy now?

[blumenkraft]

Right, Kassy. It's not a disease, it's a condition.

[nanning]

Thank you guys. Nice of you. I have had contact with blumenkraft earlier about this. I know I'm quite different seeing my life choices, courage, independency and intelligence (I don't mean IQ).
Nice suggestions. I will do the quiz KiwiGriff posted later.

My doubts increase when I read from Florifulgurator's post that girls with Asperger syndrome are quite different from boys with the syndrome. As a scientist I think that means that it is not a clear diagnose, but that there are several deeper factors involved. These deep factors are more fundamental and need to be found to call the diagnose scientific.

Re: Stunted growth.

I recognize that. Because of traumatic experiences I stopped growing from age 11-16, not only because I didn't eat a lot. At age 16 I was 1m45 (4 ft 9") and still with a child's voice (I had the emotional make-up of an 11yo until I was 36).

Just like Greta, I am black-and-white when it comes to AGW-supporting bad behaviour and took radical measures to not have ANY bad behaviour anymore (starting with carbon footprint etc). I chose not to be a grown-up because of the bad and unnatural behaviour of the grown-up groupsystem when I recognized it. I know of no other people who made such life determining completely independent choices.
I am outside group behaviour and observe in Greta the same. I haven't seen that in any Asperger or Autistic people I have met in my life. Most of them fly into abstractions and miss a lot of non-verbal communication. I really think Greta has changed a lot in the past couple of years. I restarted my physical growing after I had found a life goal and friends.

Up until now I haven't recognized myself in all criteria (some of them apply to many high IQ people I think and don't signify a 'condition') and I'm very reluctant to push myself in it to have a label and belong to a group according to a non-scientific academic discipline. Did R.P. Feynman have Aspergers Syndrome? I recognize a lot of myself in him.
Perhaps I'm a condition all by itself .

[Tor Bejnar]

Perhaps I'm a condition all by itself .

Of course, we are each in our own 'condition', all by our self, even if we're an identical twin, etc.

[be cause]

lovely how the truth is short , sweet and beautiful . ( Always   ) . b.c.

[Tor Bejnar]

from high school memory:  "All animals are equal, but pigs are more equal."
And we're all pigs, every one of us.  (And "us" includes every plant, animal and grain of sand.)

[nanning]

^^
My view and agreement:
There are no such things as worth and value in reality. It is a (civilisation) human concept.
Every lifeform is different and every lifeform is unimportant.

---

Earlier KiwiGriff posted an Aspie quiz test and ordered me to take it . I took it but was unable to send the results by PM attachment (it (almost) never works).
I post it here and ask your forgiveness.

[Tor Bejnar]

When I learned about the "Autism Spectrum" I latched on to the 'fact' it is a spectrum that we all fall into - one end or the other or somewhere in-between.  So I was indeed curious and took the quiz.  My Aspie score was 64.

Is this where we get to say, "I'm more [fill in the blank] than you!"? 
Thanks, KiwiGriff, for the quiz link.

[KiwiGriff]

Is this where we get to say, "I'm more [fill in the blank] than you!"? 
Griff about 136 Aspie.
Nothing to get too excited about I am still well within the category functioning  human .
Like IQ it is only a limited  dimensional measurement of the far more complex  human condition

[Florifulgurator]

Like IQ it is only a limited  dimensional measurement of the far more complex  human condition

The more IQ the more stupid one can make up. You can have Down syndrome and still be wiser than the average city neurotic. Now I also need to take the test...

[etienne]

The weird thing these days is that humans need to be classified, and that "anomalies" seem worse that 40 years ago. Maybe I missed something, but I wonder if the IT doesn't make everything worse. Like if communication using computers wouldn't develop social feelings.

[nanning]

Good observation in my view etienne.

Since it is an Autism 'Spectrum', why not use it as if it were wavelengths. Then I'm more blue than Tor, or Tor is more red than me, and KiwiGriff is more red than Tor  .

[be cause]

my result appears as an almost perfect circle .. I am perfectly abnormal ..   b.c.

[etienne]

I was not far from the middle, but on the normal side. I'm not sure that such a test is anything worth.

[Tom_Mazanec]

I was not far from the middle, but on the normal side. I'm not sure that such a test is anything worth.

I’m pretty sure it’s not worth much. That is why I did not bother taking it.

[gerontocrat]

my result appears as an almost perfect circle .. I am perfectly abnormal ..   b.c.

I remember a job interview from very long time ago. During the day long process I was sent to HR to have my personality assessed. If you were a "perfectly balanced / normal person" the result would be a circle. Mine wasn't - mountains and canyons registering deviations from the "norm".

The HR man pulled me from the interview. He quoth "See that spike - it says you do not suffer fools gladly - and that is who they really want, just someone to distribute the computer printouts". Lucky me - events proved he was right.

That's Greta's problem. A bunch mostly of plump, self-satisfied very well off middle-aged men do not take kindly to being called to account by a kid - a female kid - especially as they know she is right.

[nanning]

Tom, how the hell do you know it's not worth much if you haven't seen the questions and analysed them?
I would have taken it just out of curiosity.

Dear gero, R.P.Feynman had a description for such people: "Pompous Fools".
My father was not happy with being called to account by 11yo me. He was older and wiser he said, so he was right because of that.. Let's just say I'm glad Greta's dad is not like that or like those pompous fools. Otherwise we would not have a 'Greta'. Many kudo's to Svante  .

[Tom_Mazanec]

Well, for what it's worth:

Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 139 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 58 of 200
You are very likely neurodiverse (Aspie)

I have a big bulge 1 oclock to 3 oclock, and a narrow spike at 5 oclock.
And I figured it's worthless because I figure all such do-it-yourself tests are, in a science that is still mostly art.

[nanning]

Then you should remove the diagram I think.

When I think something like this is worthless, I will have some arguments for that conclusion. Arguments from myself, from analysing.
Do you have arguments for your conclusion?

I'll stop my constructive criticism now, sorry.

[etienne]

 Well, I think that the main problems of these tests is that they are subjective (what does it means to be shy?), conceived in a specific cultural context (being shy might be different in Tokio and in Paris), and that for some questions the link with the result of the test is too obvious.
When I was looking for my first job, these tests were quite trendy so I bought a book about it. There were liar detection questions asking for example if you have already been speeding on a highway, but they didn't ask how long you had the driver license. In my case, I had the university degree before the driver license, so these questions were very annoying.