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uniquorn

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #850 on: June 12, 2020, 12:20:16 AM »
From https://twitter.com/polar_andi
Quote
https://twitter.com/uwmtrier  11 May
#MOSAiCexpedition The drift of RV POLARSTERN in context with the surrounding sea-ice dynamics in the #Arctic . Data based on https://mdpi.com/2072-4292/8/1/4
I think the black areas are cloud cover over 3 or more days.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 12:25:43 AM by uniquorn »

uniquorn

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #851 on: June 13, 2020, 05:20:47 PM »
Mosaic thermistor buoys living in interesting times. Each one with it's own story to tell.
Air temperatures on the left, snow/ice, then ocean on the right. As air temperatures have risen, the shallow gradient through the ice has made it very difficult to identify the ice ocean interface, so there are no easy to read thickness charts.
Many of the buoys have been immersed, T69 looks like it has been ridged, others (not shown) present the same almost straight line data every day. T61 was deployed on a floe 7.1m thick so has a very different profile.
Thermistors are 2cm apart.

click to play

PS distance from central observatory this morning. They were making very good speed taking advantage of favourable drifts. Slowing down a bit now.
PS      2020-Jun-13 14:00   N 82°06' E 007°42'
buoy  2020-Jun-12 08:00   N 82°40' E 009°08'   
« Last Edit: June 13, 2020, 05:48:56 PM by uniquorn »

jdallen

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #852 on: June 13, 2020, 10:53:35 PM »
Mosaic thermistor buoys living in interesting times. Each one with it's own story to tell.
<snippage>
T61 was deployed on a floe 7.1m thick so has a very different profile.


Remembering profiles from a few years ago, T61 has a temperature profile over time which matches the curve you used to see pretty much anywhere in the pack.  It is now the exception rather than the rule.

It suggests that over most of the ice, energy currently being applied to it is going directly into causing phase change rather than warming the ice up to melting temperature.

Considering the huge amount of energy phase change requires, that may not seem like much, but it translates into a change in the dynamics of the system overall, in particular the timing.  It is another piece of data that suggests the ice is becoming vulnerable to insolation weeks earlier in the melt season, effectively extending it, exactly when insolation is at its highest. 
This space for Rent.

uniquorn

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #853 on: June 14, 2020, 01:36:35 PM »
An alternative view of those charts here
PS bow radar showing the floe they are/were studying. Relative drifts are not being so kind at the moment so distance has increased a little.
Added sailwx map of PS and buoy
« Last Edit: June 14, 2020, 02:40:23 PM by uniquorn »

uniquorn

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #854 on: June 15, 2020, 02:40:50 PM »
Bow radar shows PS at the same floe as yesterday.

Polarview S1 of PS, bright dot bottom right, and rough location of the central observatory, higher contrast(gamma), top left. cffr

uniquorn

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #855 on: June 16, 2020, 10:27:49 PM »
update on IABP buoy 300434063387850   which is a  cryosphere innovation SIMB.
Bottom melt beginning to show. Some snow melt.
Location:06/16/2020   82.29N   8.84E   Last iabp air temp 0.56C
Interesting those ocean temps below -2.1C.

P204 drift update, oct10-jun16
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 11:29:14 PM by uniquorn »

blumenkraft

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #856 on: June 18, 2020, 05:20:08 PM »
Four-and-a-half months braving the Arctic ice – a leg of the expedition full of major challenges!

Interview with Torsten Kanzow

Link >> https://www.meereisportal.de/en/archive/2020-kurzmeldungen-gesamttexte/four-and-a-half-months-braving-the-arctic-ice/

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #857 on: June 20, 2020, 04:20:45 AM »
This is a really cool picture of the MOSAIC floe now that the new team has returned to home base.

Maybe Uniquorn can show us where the picture was most likely taken.  It was their most recent post. I saw it about 10 hours ago, but was busy at work so could not post it here until now.

uniquorn

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #858 on: June 21, 2020, 04:00:27 PM »
update on mosaic drift using p201 and p204, jun10-21. Some interesting periodic behaviour that may be related to tides.
Polarstern bow radar, jun19-21.
A compilation of all the thermistor buoy profiles I could find (temp_proc)

uniquorn

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #859 on: June 23, 2020, 03:50:55 PM »
drift update

uniquorn

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #860 on: June 23, 2020, 09:54:04 PM »
PS bow radar, jun19-23. The smaller image inset somewhat imitating the buoy movement above.
The grid makes it easy, if a bit tedious, to register the images to 82N 9E
Individual floes in the main image shuffling positions due to the movement. It a shame the images are 6hrs apart. They might clarify tidal vs eddies if they were hourly.

added a rammb gif of the area. It's been cloudy over their location but the ice edge gives an idea of the movement

click to play
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 10:37:32 PM by uniquorn »

uniquorn

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #861 on: June 24, 2020, 04:46:19 PM »
Here showing a wider selection of buoys using 'shadow wake' so the paths interfere less with each other. This looks like clear evidence of tidal currents 240km from nearest land. click to run
One buoy is doing something else.

oren

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #862 on: June 24, 2020, 08:37:58 PM »
Quote
One buoy is doing something else.
Interesting and weird. Is that a buoy that is on a much thicker floe, by any chance?

uniquorn

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #863 on: June 24, 2020, 10:42:23 PM »
p159. I think it has been retrieved. Maybe it was a marker for some more expensive equipment.

Leg4 team ocean won't be disappointed. mosaic buoy whoi-itp94 is already showing lower salinity and a markedly different temperature profile. Latest ocean profiler Vbuoy report was only up to jun15 but I think they are not posted so regularly.

uniquorn

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #864 on: June 28, 2020, 12:39:13 AM »
I looked more closely at p159. It only reports hourly and has a lot of missing drift speed data. The animation probably struggles to process it correctly with the other buoys.

Temperature profiles for all the buoys I could find with thermistor data. M29, t63 and t70 appear to show bottom melt. I'd welcome any expert opinion on interpreting the near surface temperatures.

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #865 on: June 28, 2020, 07:12:15 AM »
i would like to compare some buoy data on 4/15/2020 to the Hycom and Piomas model can someone direct me. I want to find measured Ice thickness on that date. As I understand it the interpretation can be a little bit tricky.

OffTheGrid

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #866 on: June 28, 2020, 10:38:33 AM »
I looked more closely at p159. It only reports hourly and has a lot of missing drift speed data. The animation probably struggles to process it correctly with the other buoys.

Temperature profiles for all the buoys I could find with thermistor data. M29, t63 and t70 appear to show bottom melt. I'd welcome any expert opinion on interpreting the near surface temperatures.

Wow Sir! :o
You may have just set a New world records for the most information anyones ever crammed into a 40 second silent video.
I'm counting  6 that are melted out or in holes full of water, possibly malfuct.
Apart from that...
Am I correct the thermistors are 2cm spacing?
If so, the rest look between about 70cm and 150cm.
With the exception of t61. The bottom of that on may be off the graph. Was that the one in a pressure ridge? There kinda looks like a bit of a flat toe right at the end, though at about minus three C. Its probably soggy with brine thats been leached down from above from there to Its ragged butt.
Theres a couple that have lumps of higher temps near their bottoms, which if not sensor failure could be the result of being freely plumbed to melt ponds and finished with their initial brine flushing cycle. Hence fresh enough for the warmer surface heated water to be denser than cold melt water, and therefore be busily engaged in burrowing for freedom.
If 61 has a longer string I'd love to see, say the last month of the whole thing. Core temp is still below top and bottom temps on that chart, though rising steadily. If Its on a ridge melt ponding probably won't confuse things, and it would be very interesting observing the dynamics of Its deep keel as it melts.

Overall most of them seem about 1m thick, and probably melting both top and bottom. FollowMosaic site has been listing -1.5 or -1.6 water temps this last week. Which is about 0.3C above melting at local salinity. So the ice bottom temp is clamped at about minus 1.8, and the top of the ice at about 0C.
61 could actually be melting at -3C in Its Briney nether regions, and for that matter quite probable that dips below -1.8C in the cores of any the rest is due result to brine pockets chewing their innards into honeycomb ice. Rather than not yet being at thermal equilibrium as some may assume. One to two days above melting point is sufficient for that in such thin and young ice.
Around 1m thick agrees with Hycoms chart in that region. The "fortress" and PS are about 100km into the pack, directly nth of Svalbard by my guestimascione right now. Not sure how widely spread the buoys are. 1 degrees latitude is a smidge over 110km up there (just over 111 near the equator). Longitude much less and less again further north of course.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 11:05:53 AM by OffTheGrid »

uniquorn

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #867 on: June 28, 2020, 01:24:31 PM »
i would like to compare some buoy data on 4/15/2020 to the Hycom and Piomas model can someone direct me. I want to find measured Ice thickness on that date. As I understand it the interpretation can be a little bit tricky.
https://www.cryosphereinnovation.com/386840
https://www.cryosphereinnovation.com/387850
These are the only 2 buoys providing measured thickness that I am aware of. Help with 'home brew' attempts from mosaic buoys might be available on https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,3013.0.html

uniquorn

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #868 on: June 28, 2020, 01:48:54 PM »
If 61 has a longer string I'd love to see, say the last month of the whole thing

uniquorn

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #869 on: June 28, 2020, 02:12:41 PM »
drift update from p201
tidal current or gps problem?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 02:18:07 PM by uniquorn »

uniquorn

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #870 on: June 29, 2020, 10:51:10 AM »
PS bow radar getting more agitated, jun19-29. 5.9MB

blumenkraft

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #871 on: June 29, 2020, 06:35:25 PM »
S94 snow almost gone. The negative readings of S96 i don't understand. Click to play.

blumenkraft

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #872 on: June 29, 2020, 06:41:03 PM »
Here is a R11&12 update.

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #873 on: June 29, 2020, 06:41:37 PM »
thanks Uniquorn :D

uniquorn

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #874 on: June 29, 2020, 11:02:25 PM »
S94 snow almost gone. The negative readings of S96 i don't understand. Click to play.
We missed S93 which also has a deployment photo. Some data is supplied on the deployment which may give a clue to negative readings. There are 4 sensors, maybe the support is not quite level or ..
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 11:09:17 PM by uniquorn »

ajouis

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #875 on: June 30, 2020, 05:17:10 AM »
If the data is accurate, it is very worrisome to have only a meter thick ice that far up north, especially with the current extreme weather pattern, there is a very real chance of a sizeable clearout, even at 85-90, where ice is supposedly safe, by the end of the season
After a thousand steps on the ice, it cracked.
The Man looked down at the infinite blue of the sea.
On the horizon, standing still, the polar bear had just scented his next meal.

 Less than 3000 cubic kilometers this Piomas minimum.

oren

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #876 on: June 30, 2020, 08:24:12 AM »
I think 1m was the thickness during deployment, in October.

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #877 on: June 30, 2020, 08:55:22 AM »

uniquorn

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #878 on: July 02, 2020, 11:17:35 PM »
update on cryosphere innovation 387850 which is now showing significant bottom melt, all the snow has gone and that looks like top melt or melt pond.
Also an mp4 of its 192 sensor digital temperature chain, similar to the thermistor buoys, oct6 to jul2.
hopefully got the datetime right

uniquorn

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #879 on: July 03, 2020, 01:39:55 PM »
Following up on 387850 and looking more closely at -4C to +4C since may24. Note that the melt pond (or submerged pond) temperature rises above zero, probably during high insolation, and during jun30-jul1 remains above zero even when air temperatures drop below zero at 'night'.
best viewed at half speed or slower

uniquorn

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #880 on: July 06, 2020, 03:28:01 PM »
PS showing open water (black areas) opening up as the thinner ice (light grey) melts or the nearby floes are dispersed (or both)

kassy

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #881 on: July 06, 2020, 07:33:59 PM »
The latest findings on the MOSAiC floe

The New Siberian Islands were the birthplace of the MOSAiC floe: the sea ice in which the research vessel Polarstern is now drifting through the Arctic was formed off the coast of the archipelago, which separates the East Siberian Sea and the Laptev Sea to the north of Siberia, in December 2018. Sediments, and even small pebbles and bivalves, were incorporated into the ice during the freezing process, which the ongoing melting process has brought to light on the surface of the MOSAiC floe. This is an increasingly rare phenomenon as today, most "dirty ice" melts before it even arrives in the Central Arctic. These are among the main findings of a study that MOSAiC experts have published now in the journal The Cryosphere, and which will provide the basis for numerous upcoming scientific assessments.

...

The MOSAiC floe had already drifted over 1200 nautical miles in a meandering course when the research icebreaker Polarstern moored to it on 4 October 2019, at the coordinates 85° North and 137° East, and began to drift with it through the Arctic Ocean. While the current expedition team is busy taking readings in the Arctic, their colleagues back at home are analyzing the data gathered. The precise analysis confirms the first impressions from the beginning of the expedition: "Our assessment shows that the entire region in which the two ships looked for suitable floes was characterized by unusually thin ice," reports Dr. Thomas Krumpen, a sea-ice physicist at the Alfred Wegener Institute, Helmholtz Center for Polar and Marine Research (AWI).

for details:
https://phys.org/news/2020-07-latest-mosaic-floe.html

The MOSAiC ice floe: sediment-laden survivor from the Siberian shelf
https://tc.copernicus.org/articles/14/2173/2020/
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

uniquorn

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #882 on: July 08, 2020, 10:41:35 AM »
mosaic buoy P201, mostly zonal drift since jul1

ajouis

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #883 on: July 09, 2020, 11:15:56 PM »
polastern's trajectory
After a thousand steps on the ice, it cracked.
The Man looked down at the infinite blue of the sea.
On the horizon, standing still, the polar bear had just scented his next meal.

 Less than 3000 cubic kilometers this Piomas minimum.

uniquorn

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #884 on: July 10, 2020, 09:13:43 PM »

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #885 on: July 12, 2020, 08:49:25 PM »
The phys.org article contains a stunning picture from June 30. Click for higher res.

igs

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #886 on: July 12, 2020, 10:16:15 PM »
The phys.org article contains a stunning picture from June 30. Click for higher res.

How thick is the ice at their location, that's what I'd like to know since long because that would allow for a better assessment of the various models, i.e PIOMAS and HYCOM.

At least one measured and confirmend value, perhaps even many more with all the buoeys.

uniquorn

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #887 on: July 12, 2020, 10:36:16 PM »
Buoy data is here but you have to do some work or wait till 2023

igs

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #888 on: July 12, 2020, 10:39:02 PM »
Thanks for the link and the job  ;)

Very much appreciated.


The value I was looking for is about 120cm, will check more of them for a bigger picture.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 11:10:11 PM by igs »

uniquorn

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #889 on: July 12, 2020, 10:52:21 PM »
How thick is the ice at their location, that's what I'd like to know
well, there is one mosaic buoy that is measuring thickness. Perhaps igs will keep an eye on it for us. Location is not far from PS
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 10:59:32 PM by uniquorn »

igs

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #890 on: July 12, 2020, 11:11:16 PM »
How thick is the ice at their location, that's what I'd like to know
well, there is one mosaic buoy that is measuring thickness. Perhaps igs will keep an eye on it for us. Location is not far from PS

Nice ninja post, see the edit above yours, thanks again will have a few more looks ;)

This one shows around 80cm, that's less than I was hoping.

Ice thickness''   : 77-83 cm
Snow thickness : 7 cm
Freeboard'        : 5 cm

Under current conditions that does not look promising for the ice at this specific location:

https://www.google.es/maps/place/81%C2%B031'39.4%22N+0%C2%B058'26.9%22E/@79.1099209,0.9741395,4z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d81.5276!4d0.974145?hl=en&authuser=0
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 11:40:51 PM by igs »

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #891 on: July 13, 2020, 12:41:46 AM »
The surprise to me is that the ice in that general area of the Mosaic floe didn't look that bad on Worldview on June 30 when that helicopter picture of the Polarstern was taken.  With the clear skies over so much of the Arctic recently, it now looks like vast areas in worse shape than this, at least to the untrained eye.

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #892 on: July 13, 2020, 12:56:54 AM »
It has been so frustrating that the scientists on board MOSAIC have not done a better job of showing us what they are seeing!

I like all of the scientists that participated. I understand they want some time to publish their findings and they are entitled to that.

But, the BS pics of people in the pool or the lunch room, instead of showing the ice has really ticked me off! They could have been providing us with pictures and temperatures and ice thickness measurements this whole time, and it would not have impacted their ability to be first to publish.

i have lost a lot of respect for some of the scientists on this mission because of the way they refused to provide basic data that would not have in anyway impacted their ability to be first to publish.




FishOutofWater

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #893 on: July 13, 2020, 02:19:45 AM »
The system does not encourage scientists to interact with the public. In many cases it discourages it. They didn't need an expensive helicopter to get good images for public consumption. A drone with a video camera would have provided lots of good visuals for the public and maybe even some good information for science. It's pointless to get angry with the scientists but I agree with you that lunchroom photos are annoying unless you are a friend or family.

Rod

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #894 on: July 13, 2020, 02:43:55 AM »
I was once an academic researcher, and I agree my comments were too hard on them.

They are where they are. But, they still could have thrown us a few bones concerning the melting season this year!

Rod

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #895 on: July 13, 2020, 02:47:37 AM »
In fact, the more I think about your post, the more I become pissed at them!

We don’t have much time to get AGW under control. I would think the scientists studying it would give us the data to convince people it is a problem!

FishOutofWater

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #896 on: July 13, 2020, 03:21:07 AM »
I, too, am frustrated, Rod with the level of communication of climate science research to the public. My research career cannot be described as brilliant but I learned a lot about the politics of science. I developed nuclear waste safety research programs and managed them with national labs and universities. I approved and oversaw research grants with universities. When Newt Gingrich & the GOP took over congress in 1994 all of our nuclear waste safety research was closed down.

Perhaps EU scientists don't have to deal with such crazy political wind shifts as U.S. scientists, but there are systemic reasons why scientists are not engaging very well with the public.

Rod

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #897 on: July 13, 2020, 03:41:13 AM »
We thank you for what you have done to make this world a better place  FOW!

I have great respect for you! I fight polluters every day and it pisses me off!

I have three kids and I worry about their future because of AGW. I guess we all have our weak spots, mine is my children. Sorry if I get overly emotional sometimes.

blumenkraft

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #898 on: July 13, 2020, 08:09:15 AM »
But, the BS pics of people in the pool or the lunch room, instead of showing the ice has really ticked me off! They could have been providing us with pictures and temperatures and ice thickness measurements this whole time, and it would not have impacted their ability to be first to publish.

I oftentimes felt the same.

The thing though is, we are ice nerds. I bet the majority of people looking at that site aren't. The PR team is hoping to attract more people to the project. You would scare away Average Joe with 'boring' data. Nutella-breakfast pictures are for the masses. We are not the masses.

blumenkraft

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Re: MOSAiC news
« Reply #899 on: July 13, 2020, 08:12:23 AM »
I have great respect for you!

+1