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cesium62

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Off Topic
« on: September 25, 2019, 06:23:51 AM »
This is the thread where one should discuss whether or not a posting to an Arctic Sea Ice thread is off topic.  Please remain on topic in this thread.  However, if you do go off topic, this is the thread to discuss that.

sidd

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2019, 07:22:54 AM »
Does the barber shave himself ? What is the class of all classes that do not belong to themselves ? All Cretans are liars ....


sidd

pleun

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2019, 08:09:12 AM »
Think that has nothing to do with the topic Sidd.

Neven

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2019, 10:23:18 AM »
Didn't we already have the meaningless chatter thread for this? Maybe I should sticky it?
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

sark

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2019, 10:26:06 AM »
We should make it so anyone can change the topic
I am not a scientist

be cause

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2019, 11:57:17 AM »
but not on Wednesdays .. :)
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 
 (phew)

echoughton

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2019, 12:36:34 PM »
Any ice that is left over from summer and then re-freezes is multi year ice. I keep hearing that MYI is almost gone. Well, how in HAITI does 4 million sq km of ice ...mostly in the CAB...which seems to go year upon year at NOT MELTING....be considered NOT MYI?? Does it export around and disappear in different places during the summer? I am really confused

be cause

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2019, 01:46:24 PM »
how can the ice which formed during the last winter/spring be called multi-year ice before it is even 12 months old ? Most of the ice surviving atm fits this description . Ice undre 2 years old is also not multi-year  . Multi is usually understood to mean many . 1 and 2 are not usually considered to be many
  There is of course older ice which we can all agree is multi-year .. but it forms a small proportion of the ice currently remaining . .. b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 
 (phew)

binntho

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2019, 03:59:47 PM »
how can the ice which formed during the last winter/spring be called multi-year ice before it is even 12 months old ? Most of the ice surviving atm fits this description . Ice undre 2 years old is also not multi-year  . Multi is usually understood to mean many . 1 and 2 are not usually considered to be many
  There is of course older ice which we can all agree is multi-year .. but it forms a small proportion of the ice currently remaining . .. b.c.

Perhaps it's like with plants - annuals, biennials, and perennials.
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

gandul

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2019, 04:19:55 PM »
MYI is ice that has survived two melting seasons at least.
The rest is second year ice and forming now is first year ice

Any ice that is left over from summer and then re-freezes is multi year ice. I keep hearing that MYI is almost gone. Well, how in HAITI does 4 million sq km of ice ...mostly in the CAB...which seems to go year upon year at NOT MELTING....be considered NOT MYI?? Does it export around and disappear in different places during the summer? I am really confused

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2019, 04:32:27 PM »
Any ice that is left over from summer and then re-freezes is multi year ice. I keep hearing that MYI is almost gone. Well, how in HAITI does 4 million sq km of ice ...mostly in the CAB...which seems to go year upon year at NOT MELTING....be considered NOT MYI?? Does it export around and disappear in different places during the summer? I am really confused

Per the work of A-Team in the Test space thread (May 23, 2019), we can see that the ice around the North Pole in May 2019 was near the Chukchi 6 months earlier.  Some of that ice had just formed ('born' between September and November 2018) or formed the year before.  (The ice has continued to move since May, but not as much, I think.)  Therefore, most of the ice at the North Pole today is 1st or 2nd year ice, and not MYI, per Wikipedia, or FYI and MYI, per NSIDC.
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

vox_mundi

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2019, 05:01:05 PM »
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 05:06:58 PM by vox_mundi »
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

kassy

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2019, 11:07:49 PM »
Long ago i walked the Camino de Santiago. From St.Jean in France straight into the alps. Then it takes about a month to go all the way. Then we took the train back from Santiago and the train crosses the trail at many points so in an hour and a half you see last week, three hours is two weeks ago and in the late afternoon you are almost a month back.

It really made me appreciate how the world was different when the horse was the quickest way of travel.

I have also been watching the ice for a while. Back in the early 2000 days the best graph was Hycom and you would see the old ice move around.

Now most of that is gone and that is just over a period i actually lived in and remember.

That video gets me every time i watch it.

Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Rodius

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2019, 04:47:23 AM »
Does the barber shave himself ? What is the class of all classes that do not belong to themselves ? All Cretans are liars ....


sidd

Are you a Cretan?

SteveMDFP

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2019, 03:06:36 PM »
Does the barber shave himself ? What is the class of all classes that do not belong to themselves ? All Cretans are liars ....


sidd

Are you a Cretan?

Sidd might be a Cretan, but definitely not a cretin.

johnm33

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2020, 06:06:27 PM »
A little about bathymetry and atlantification, not enough for a thread, and don't want to affect popcorn eaters on ms thread.The tides will build from today towards 03:08 but due to the low by the Faroes there's been a decent amount of Atl. waters forced north, we have a high by Kara so only the most energetic fraction will penetrate to St. Anna trough, which implies a fair bit of forcing through Fram. The Pacific side had a persistent high for long enough to evacuate maybe 20+cms of water and now a deep low is there calling all that back and more. The persistent high forced a current to establish flowing away from it towards Lomonosov that drew in Pacific waters in it's wake and the hole [in the ice cover] north of Wrangel is where this current naturally falls into the deep and by coincidence it's right by a 'pinch point' of steeper slope where the Atl. waters that have made their way around the basins detatch, maybe due to loss of inertia maybe too saline[?]. Each current will accelerate the other so are likely to persist.
The incoming through Fram will seperate according to it's energetic state, that with the most inertia will drive along the Barents shelf and here it will generate vortices which stretch vertically causing melt above and small waves below in passing. Less energetic waters will be drawn across to Greenland and Ellesmere being the easiest means by which to resupply the Pacific side and here too as it passes it'll cause vortices as it holds fast to the shelf north of Greenland/ Ellesmere if not clearing the shelf then not allowing anything to settle.
Pessimistically it seems to mean up to 45cms of water will be drawn in from the Atl. and Pac and since these flows are pulsed with the tides then the extra movement around the Basins, before waves and wind are considered, is going to 'lubricate' the rotation of the 'pack'.
Already we see that surface ice is moving towards the low rather than being dispersed.
Other 'pinch points' exist the first in the rotation being directly after Laptev, spinning water off to the far side of Lomonosov the next at approx. 160E, other things to note is the emerging divide above Gakel ridge by Laptev and that as shown by Mercator the vorticiity is not confined to the shelf side of Amundsen/Nansen.
This much forcing followed by it's opposite is going to accelerate the exchange of Atl. and Arctic waters

« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 12:37:26 PM by johnm33 »

binntho

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2020, 06:41:22 AM »
Are you just making this up John? It looks like fiction to me, the whole post. How about some real world numbers and measurements, some research to support every one of your long string of claims.
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

KiwiGriff

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2020, 07:31:13 AM »
Seems to me that heavy ice cover creates its own conditions that helps retain it .
Bottom melt results in a layer of fresh water that insulates the ice from warmer seas below.
Extensive ice cover limits the effects of wave action.
In our new regime Ice cover is not as heavy so that fresh water layer can be disrupted by wind and wave action. Once there is large gaps in the cover it allows sea state to build mixing the fresh water surface layer with warmer  salty water lower down in the water column allowing its energy  to directly contact the ice .





johnm33

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2020, 01:02:54 PM »
Binntho thanks for the affirmation that i'm not just stating the nose-bleedingly obvious, and for the grit but please collect your own rocks.
The damage done by incoming continues, on the Pacific side the flow that drops into the deep north of Wrangel appears to be turning right as it does so probably bringing up a huge amount of heat in a very concentrated area [maybe driving the low?]. It appears that once Atl passes to the Am. side of Lomonosov some moves polewards, otherwise the stirring it causes is also creating turbulence along Grakkel ridge away from Laptev, for any feature to show means very deep disturbence Grakkel is about 3000m down but the area in question is opposite St. Anna.
This image shows the tangential speed at whatever latitude, the incoming from the Pac. has about 100kph to shed by the time it reaches Wrangel so enough kinetic energy to create a bit of a stir. The second gif shows Atl. penetration 4 years apart, the most difficult thing imho for the sea to do is to overcome the inertia of the 'resident' water so my interpretation is in 16 there was very little penetration past Laptev/Lomonosov so less flow so less turbulence/vorticity.  The last gif being a not too succesful attempt to illustrate opposite vorticity approaching/retreating from the axis/pole
« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 08:25:19 PM by johnm33 »

icy voyeur2

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2020, 06:20:47 AM »
Apologies but I just tried to look for ways to block an individual user and came up shy.

If there's contributor whose posts I don't want to see, XYZ, how to a block their posts? Thanks much.

oren

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2020, 06:23:51 AM »
Profile - buddies/ignore list - edit ignore list.
Never tried it myself.

icy voyeur2

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2020, 07:43:00 AM »
Profile - buddies/ignore list - edit ignore list.
Never tried it myself.

Thanks, in more detail. in the normal view, find and click on profile to open a new window. Then after opening a new window via profile,via "modify profile" drop down within the menu item "modify profile" select "buddies/ignorelist ..." 

From there you can select the nym of someone you might wish to ignore, if that's the way you roll. 
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 07:44:05 AM by oren »

be cause

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2020, 09:55:11 AM »
Funny .. for the 1st time in 7 years I really would like to block someone too .. b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 
 (phew)

uniquorn

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2020, 01:53:20 PM »
for any feature to show means very deep disturbence Grakkel is about 3000m down but the area in question is opposite St. Anna.
Not dismissing the idea out of hand but it is a big ask from 3000m down. It's possible that there is turbulence along the Lomonosov anyway due to a (modelled) convergence of currents. Mosaic buoys saw evidence of turbulence further south.
Perhaps more likely is that the low concentration is caused by wind on the FYI/SYI boundary with the first year ice 'racing' ahead.

It's not clear what you were trying to show in the last ani. btw I hadn't realised we were travelling at the speed of sound.

johnm33

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2020, 03:23:39 PM »
I suspected that as the Atl. water begins it's return from the ESS shelf it may be assisted by the vortices moving east along the shelf, and thought that perhaps they could be seen in the model. Also I thought it worthwhile to look for something similar both sides of Lomonosov.
 There's broad band of blue[ish] on the 'exp uhamsr2' gif1  opposite St. Anna which is more or less directly above Gakkel, surprised me, so I'm guessing either a disturbence as a vortex [the flow down S.A. is moving directly to the axis] or possibly a clash with a reflected wave from Lomonosov forcing some action in the upper layers to the surface as they pass Gr.-As. and back?
 The general thrust being that the Atl. waters have overcome the inertia of the Arctic ocean and now rather than 'shouting from outside the auditorium' and their energy being lost in the void they're 'on stage', and set to resonate the place. You more or less said the same in pointing out that the Atl. waters have found a return path.
Speed is always a matter of frame of reference and kinetic energy totally mutable.

johnm33

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2020, 04:36:54 PM »
So if you look above at the tangential speed graphic you'll see that at the Faroes gap the speed is about 500mph/800kph, to push north involves moving the incumbent water, no single tide or weather system will do that, and whilst there's ice cover on Barentz any movement across the shelf will be suppressed creating a cacophony of motion enough to limit any residual currents both between tides and particularly between seasons. Once melted the flow will ratchet up in small random increments forcing more Atl. water ever deeper, as attested by the now more coherent salinity model. The inertia available to move that water so far has to be accumulated and can only do what is possible given the constraints of the waters qualities, that is it'll stop before the Chukchi plateau being too dense or slow to ascend, so for now that's the limit of penetration. Whatever amount flows in must be balanced by outflow that has not been evident in ice loss through Fram so there must have been an increase in water outflow. If you look back at uniquorns ascat series then you'll see two streams which flow towards Fram[eventually] one north of Wrangel and one north of NSI. these are establishing currents that complete the circuit [for now] for Atl. waters. one of uniquorns gifs here   LARGE!
edit, switched gif for optional ext. link
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 12:09:19 AM by johnm33 »

binntho

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2020, 05:38:56 PM »
A graphic showing wind-driven ice movement, and suddenly there is a "Faroes gap" and speeds exceeding that of commercial jetliners. What is it that is moving so fast, and why can't you just dig up some graphics that show the actual currents in the Atlantic and the Arctic as have been measured over decades by tons of scientists.
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

glennbuck

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2020, 08:03:41 PM »
I am surprised they are drilling in the summer already is this just exploration at the moment? What year are they expecting the Kara Sea to be ice free all year round?



One of the world’s biggest heavy loads vessel on 17th June sailed into the Kola Bay with two rigs on board. A week later, the “Xin Guang Hua” left the Russian Arctic city, and by the 29th June it was located off the coast of Norway’s Lofoten islands with course or the Netherlands, ship traffic data show.

https://www.rcinet.ca/eye-on-the-arctic/2020/06/29/two-chinese-rigs-prepare-for-drilling-in-russian-arctic-waters/
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 08:51:56 PM by glennbuck »

uniquorn

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2020, 09:57:09 PM »
A graphic showing wind-driven ice movement
Ascat shows ice movement. It doesn't necessarily have to be wind driven. Fram Strait is a clear example.

binntho

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2020, 06:03:20 AM »
A graphic showing wind-driven ice movement
Ascat shows ice movement. It doesn't necessarily have to be wind driven. Fram Strait is a clear example.
Indeed, movement is movement and the causes are not visible from above. But even in the Fram Strait, where we know that there is an underlying south-heading current, the ice movement is strongly influenced by wind, which happens to generally blow in the same direction as the current. But when the wind reverses in the Fram Strait, export stops and can even go in reverse.

John thinks that the tides somehow move vast amounts of water all over the place twice daily. The physics of course is that the tidal effect is caused by expansion of water in the deep ocean at lower latitudes, with minimal actual movement of water except where coastal obstruction creates a local height/gravity imbalance (a fancy way of saying "downward slope").

Anybody who has been at sea knows that the tides have no effect whatsoever on the movement of ships except in coastal waters. But the well known and extensively mapped ocean currents have a very big effect on the movement of ships.  What goes for ships goes for other floating things, including sea ice.

Which reminds me of another of my bug-bears: Bathymetry has no effect on the movement of ships unless the depth is a very low multiple of the draft (i.e. 0 - 2). When 0, the ship grounds, and while less than around 2 there is a measurable resistance as the water has reduced freedom of movement away from the hull.

And so bathymetry cannot have any direct influence on the movement of ice. There is no direct causal connection between bathymetry and ice movement and position, unless the depth is within 0-2 times the draft of the individual floes.
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

KiwiGriff

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2020, 08:05:44 AM »
As this is off topic some totally useless information for any land lubber.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squat_effect
The squat effect is the hydrodynamic phenomenon by which a vessel moving quickly through shallow water creates an area of lowered pressure that causes the ship to be closer to the seabed than would otherwise be expected. This phenomenon is caused when water that should normally flow under the hull encounters resistance due to the close proximity of the hull to the seabed. Leonardo's law causes the water to move faster in water level (where section is smaller); according to Bernoulli's principle, the increasing velocity causes low pressure, such that the ship is pulled down. Squat effect from a combination of vertical sinkage and a change of trim may cause the vessel to dip towards the stern or towards the bow.[1]

Squat effect is approximately proportional to the square of the speed of the ship. Thus, by reducing speed by half, the squat effect is reduced by a factor of four.[2] Squat effect is usually felt more when the depth/draft ratio is less than four[2] or when sailing close to a bank. It can lead to unexpected groundings and handling difficulties.



binntho

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2020, 08:52:51 AM »
Interesting. Reminds me of reading, in "The Museum of Innoncence" by Orhan Pamuk of how once, as a boy, he woke up to a constant low-level earthquake shaking the whole of Istanbul. In the morning he learned that one of the biggest Soviet warships in the Black Sea had sailed under the Bosphorus bridge at full speed, and the throbbing of the engines was what woke him.

Although no explanation was given, a similar and well-explained "full speed under the bridge" event took place shortly after I read the book.

The Bosphorus is around 60 m deep at the site of the old bridge, rising up to 40 m at it's shallowest point near the Horn. A typical warship of the Black Sea fleet would not have had a draft of over 10 m so I'm not sure if the increased speed would have lowered the ship in the water or if that was the point, possibly the "full speed" of Orhan's memory had more to do with cold-war shenanigans.
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
St. Augustine, Confessions V, 6

glennbuck

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Re: Off Topic
« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2020, 02:18:20 PM »
Arctic sea ice area for July 31st,  3,688.341 km^2. NSIDC Daily Area.

lowests minimum: 2.241 (2012), 2.477 (2016)

Graph by Nico Sun, https://cryospherecomputing.tk/


« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 02:30:05 PM by glennbuck »