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kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #100 on: May 06, 2020, 01:53:52 PM »
Technically you can get rid of the gas connection and associated costs but at a cost. They charge about 600 to remove it so that only pays of after 5 years or so.

This would be fine if you are the owner and plan to stay for a while or if you made it a gasless house on purpose.

In this case there might be more people in the building with some maybe using gas?

The entry that surprised me most was the actual ´voorschot gas´. Did you change energy providers recently?
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nanning

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #101 on: May 07, 2020, 04:39:47 AM »
Thanks for the replies.
kassy is right about the disconnection costs. As I understand it, my provider, and I think they're not an exception, cannot charge me for 0 m3 gas use but they have to charge me a minimum usage amount in order for their computersystem to make me pay the transport costs which is compulsory when you have a connection. It is not allowed to disconnect because these appartments don't have any other means of heating. And as kassy stated, even if it would be allowed it is too expensive for me as a poor renter.

I posted it to show that The Netherlands is in no way progressive with handling individual 'green behaviour'. It is preposterous that I have to pay for stuff I don't use at all!
This is an incentive in reverse, it is a barrier: Lower CO2 emissions = higher price per unit of energy, & Lower energy use = higher price per unit of energy.
So much for 'policies and solutions' in The Netherlands.


Another thing that's happening here is that our government plans on giving 2-4b euro's to the air line KLM. 2-4b euro's go to a very large carbon footprint generator in private hands.
I scratch my head and think "for that money we could have nationalised KLM and have complete control over it.
The same should happen with all public transport otherwise you cannot make 'green' policy without handing large amounts of money to private companies.

It's as if there still is no long-term view but just stumbling along over every unanticipated bump and pothole. Reactionary and chaotic. Dear governments, it is high time you stopped listening/submitting to the rich old families behind the scenes.

The metaphoric (ingrown) neo-liberal iron ball around the ankles of policy makers: Can the ball be cut loose and give us free rein to lower our collective carbon footprints in time?
Perhaps start with making it a criminal offence to externalise costs. Take the whole picture of all consequences.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
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kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #102 on: May 07, 2020, 02:56:33 PM »
They have a rather crappy system if that is the case.

It is preposterous that I have to pay for stuff I don't use at all!

Not really, that is what taxes are for. Although of course you pay very little tax.
Some things i pay for which i am not using: education (no kids), health care (did not need it so far this year), roads between towns (i cycle), bijstand (did not need it so far this year). And yes that is a bit of a charged way of putting it to underscore the general principle.

Of course you only need a little patience since the gaslines will be removed eventually.

As for KLM not sure if you could nationalize it for that amount or should want to but basically carbon costs should be priced into flights but that cannot be done at a country level.
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nanning

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #103 on: May 07, 2020, 04:33:29 PM »
Dear kassy, I don't get my (virtual) gas from the government but from a private corporation. I don't use their product. Therefore it is preposterous that I should pay for it. The only tax that applies here, as it says on my bill, is BTW. But I don't use any product. The bill states gas costs but I use no gas.
I understand what taxes are for.

Regarding the KLM, our oldest air line, the future looks bleak (emissions) and cuts will have to be made in air travel. Therefore it is better to have control over our future, especially if you're giving away (our tax money) 2-4 billion euro's.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #104 on: June 10, 2020, 03:11:19 PM »
There is a new advice on nitrogen policy from the specialist group looking at the nitrogen problem.

The report is called ´Not everything can be done everywhere´ which is a surprisingly short and to the point title.

Some key finds:
1) We have a 5 billion euro 10 year buyout for farmers which is not ambitious enough. This will result in a 26% reduction by 2030 while at least 50% is needed.

2) The governments proposals so far not only lack ambition but they lack commitment.

Remkes: often i read ´the governemnet strives to´ The commitments should be put into a law. ´We do not want an obligation to try but an obligation for results.´.

Goals should be set at provincial level and the provinces can handle it from there.

3) Most important is that agriculture as 40% emitter should be reduced more. The proposed plan for voluntary reductions is not enough.
What is needed is aimed buy outs of farms close to the Natura 2000 areas.

These measures actually work together. Lets say some farmer quits because he has no heirs is not sure of the near and long term future but he is in an area with lots of room. A farmer that is near a nature area but who wants to keep on farming could move to the other farm and go on there.

4) Shipping needs to be greener

5) Peak emitters heavy industry or Rotterdam Harbor, Schiphol Airport also need extra measures.

6) Temporary emission rights can be used for stuck infrastructure projects if above is realized in a goal driven way.

From AD paper 9th june. Italics my comment.

Basically Johan Remkes´role is to play a devils advocate to the government to make sure they don´t stall to much and he is doing a good job.


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kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #105 on: June 24, 2020, 03:01:01 PM »
So by 2030 we should have green energy.

The country has been divided in 30 energy regions. The idea is that they work out the local measures. The first round of plans has been completed and here are some trends.
Goal is 35 TWh of solar and wind (which is only 30% of what we use).

1) The regions prefer solar to wind which is much more expensive adding a billion of costs.
Solar is more expensice then wind and it requires more investment in the grid.

There is much more resistance to wind parks from people. Solar roofs should be a big gain mainly for urban areas.

Wind:Solar is now 60:40 and with the plans shifts to 20:80.

2) Wind yields three times as much energy for same installed power.

3) One reason for the choices is that the regions don´t feel the costs or efficiency of the overall system so they mainly decide on what is popular with the people and how they think about using public space. Last sentence is a literal translation and it is obtuse in dutch too. Just reads like no windmills in our backyard, frontyard or general vicinity used twice.

So maybe there should be a little more central planning (it´s a small country anyway) but we will get to that hopefully.

From Regio´s verkiezen due zonne-energie boven wind NRC 15 july 2020 paper edition. Story was not free on their web edition.
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kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #106 on: July 03, 2020, 02:30:32 PM »
Schouten houdt vast aan veevoerplan voor stikstofreductie

https://www.nu.nl/politiek/6062049/schouten-houdt-vast-aan-veevoerplan-voor-stikstofreductie.html

Dutch minister of Agriculture plans to regulate by law the amount of protein that can be added as animal feed. The farmers hate this but they did not come up with workable plans to reduce nitrogen pollution in time.

They are protesting now but there are no options left: We need the reduction to be able to build houses and roads the minister said.

Reducing proteins in the animal feed reduces the amount om ammonia in urine and feces.
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nanning

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #107 on: July 11, 2020, 09:11:47 AM »
https://www.omropfryslan.nl/nijs/975605-flylan-wekket-tefolle-enerzjy-op-stroom-moat-oars-brukt-wurde

In Friesland in the North we have a very shallow sea, the Wadden sea, and a series of small islands.
On the island of Vlieland (ca. 30Km from the coast) there is so much renewable energy generated that it overloads the cable connecting it to the main land.

The, privatised, electrical infrastructure company "Liander" says it will cost too much (€15 million) to upgrade the cable. They even say that the tax payer has to pay for that. Then why hasn't the cable been upgraded already?

This is the same company that is responsible for many black-out's lately. Also through incompetence and/or cost cutting imo.

One would expect an (monopoly) infrastructure organisation to plan long-term and be aware of developments. The amount of electrical energy generated on that island is not happening all of a sudden but they did not see this coming and there is apparently no oversight and coordinated planning. Another example of incompetence imo. The reason is likely cost cutting or in other words: profit maximisation. Cost cutting leads to lack of maintenance, lack of redundancy, lack of long term vision and planning and less professional/scientific thinking and incompetence. No doubt the board room is filled with rich people.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #108 on: July 11, 2020, 06:19:32 PM »
Upgrading the grid should be tackled at a national level and we will get there eventually just not soon enough.
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nanning

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #109 on: July 12, 2020, 07:38:54 AM »
You are right kassy, but the problem with privitisations is that this in no longer in the governments' hands. Government has no control over 'national level' and apparantly didn't have long term planning and oversight either.

They have lost control with the privitisations and now have to talk to and hand over loads of our money to the privatised infrastructure companies. The same situation applies to e.g. the busses where you can't make them all electric if that is government policy because they there is no government control and it has to hand over loads of taxpayer money to the individual companies.

I presume that re-nationalisation of infrastructure is out of the question in all the neo-liberal countries.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

blumenkraft

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #110 on: July 12, 2020, 09:36:30 AM »
IMHO, everything that is public infrastructure should be in public, not private hands.

This is something to fight for in the EU! Please vote accordingly (i.e. no neoliberals or conservatives).

kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #111 on: July 14, 2020, 05:10:37 PM »
NETHERLANDS STILL PUSHING €8 BILLION INTO FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY ANNUALLY: ENVIRONMENTAL ORGANIZATIONS

...

The over 8 billion euros in state aid to the fossil fuel industry listed in the report includes direct subsidies, but also tax advantages and price support. The largest part, almost 5 billion euros per year, goes to aviation and shipping, industry, power plants and agriculture.

42 percent of the total amount is for the aviation sector - airlines receive billions of euros in benefits. And this excludes coronavirus support. There is no VAT on kerosene, which means there is no tax on airline tickets. Because there is VAT on all other forms of transport, this leads to an uneven playing field, the environmental organizations said. "It is absurd that you pay more VAT for your tram ticket than for a plane ticket to Bali."

According to the organizations, the government also indirectly supports fossil energy projects abroad. For example, Dutch companies receive government support for building refineries in Oman and oil platforms in Mexico. "The Netherlands exports the climate crisis through our fossil support," they said. "Poor countries in particular become more dependent on oil and gas." And it is the people in these countries that are hit hardest by the climate crisis.

The industry also enjoys major tax advantages. "The big polluters from heavy industry receive millions in tax benefits, which are coughed up by households and small entrepreneurs," Milieudefensie director Donald Pols said.

...

https://nltimes.nl/2020/07/14/netherlands-still-pushing-eu8-billion-fossil-fuel-industry-annually-environmental

So on the the upside there is plenty of money to liberate for the transition.
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gerontocrat

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #112 on: July 14, 2020, 09:46:40 PM »
You are right kassy, but the problem with privitisations is that this in no longer in the governments' hands. Government has no control over 'national level' and apparantly didn't have long term planning and oversight either.
Is there a regulator?
Privatisations of Government owned utilities usually required legislation.

If you want anything to happen you have to do your homework & find out what levers Government have over these greedy arseholes.

Then you have to embarass your National & Local elected representatives with the aim of threatening their prospects for reelection. And the regulator can always be made to feel uncomfortable.

& to do this you have to give yourself a time budget. Three times I have had to launch a campaign on behalf of myself and some friends to fight injustice. I gave myself 2 hours a day to start with and then just 1 hour a day to make the scumbags life a little less pleasant. A strict time limit avoids getting obsessed.

& you may well get absolutely nowhere. I got one success, one failure and one 50-50, and got very tired.
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nanning

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #113 on: July 15, 2020, 06:29:39 AM »
You really are a great fighter for the good cause gero imo.

Thanks for the tips for engaging and setting a self-protecting time limit on ones efforts. I love self discipline.

I gather that this has to be done via the media, preferably national media, and I have no idea how to start that because I am alone without any credentials or contacts. And I don't have money to spend on it.

I am a long time member of the Socialistische Partij SP. Perhaps I can use that channel but all things that smell of socialism are not high up on our media's priorities and our neo-liberal dominated politics. Socialism has been effectively demonized.

Perhaps an organisation that fights for our environment would have more chance, such as the "milieudefensie" organisation kassy mentioned. I'll have to think about it. It has to have a massive reach for it to be effective. Perhaps kassy has some further ideas...

edit: change "discipline" into "self discipline"
« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 04:24:02 PM by nanning »
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #114 on: August 19, 2020, 03:38:38 PM »
Schouten houdt vast aan veevoerplan voor stikstofreductie

https://www.nu.nl/politiek/6062049/schouten-houdt-vast-aan-veevoerplan-voor-stikstofreductie.html

Dutch minister of Agriculture plans to regulate by law the amount of protein that can be added as animal feed. The farmers hate this but they did not come up with workable plans to reduce nitrogen pollution in time.

They are protesting now but there are no options left: We need the reduction to be able to build houses and roads the minister said.

Reducing proteins in the animal feed reduces the amount om ammonia in urine and feces.

A couple of month later.

https://www.nu.nl/politiek/6071851/minister-schouten-schrapt-veevoermaatregel-vanwege-beperkte-stikstofreductie.html

Skipping the dutch quote but basically they cancelled it.

The reason is that it would not reproduce enough reductions. Of course that means the whole reduction gap will still need to be plugged but there are elections coming up so they will kick that can fully up the road even though that is basically contrary to the outcome of the lawsuit.

Maybe they figure there will be no further litigation or that they can at least hide behind covid. Practically it´s up to the next government.

A more practical background: one big problem was that the additional feed comes on top of grass but the yield for grass has been exceptionally low because it was so sunny which took out a big part of the budget. The yield was estimated from 2018 which is a recent warm year so that does not bode well for the future.
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kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #115 on: August 27, 2020, 07:21:04 PM »
Anderhalve dag per week thuiswerken kan 3 miljard autokilometers besparen

https://www.nu.nl/economie/6073497/anderhalve-dag-per-week-thuiswerken-kan-3-miljard-autokilometers-besparen.html

Not policy yet but we could use this:

Quote
Working from home 1.5 days a week could safe 3 billion car travel kms


If 1 in 8 employees works from home for 1.5 day per week its saves 3 billion car travel kms and
353.600 tons of CO2.

The number is based on two thirds travelling by car.

Other savings 632 tons of nitrogen and 11 tons of fine particulate matter.

It would save 1,7 billion euros of costs. 78 million hours of travel saved , more productivity and less pollution costs.

Savings for less maintenance needed for infrastructure is not included in this number.
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Sciguy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #116 on: February 03, 2021, 12:53:49 AM »
A greenhouse nursery using geothermal heating to save more than 25,000 tons of CO2 won the EZK Energy Award in 2020.  Other nominees included a farm producing renewable natural gas from cattle manure and a technique to recycle Styrofoam into building insulation.

https://www.thinkgeoenergy.com/greenhouse-operator-utilising-geothermal-wins-prestigious-government-sustainability-award-in-the-netherlands/

Quote
Greenhouse operator utilising geothermal wins prestigious government sustainability award in the Netherlands
Alexander Richter
29 Jan 2021

Dutch greenhouse nursery company Amerlaan wins prestigious EZK Energy Award 2020 by the Netherland's Ministry of Economic Affairs and Climate (EZK). The company was awarded for its sustainability efforts saving more than 25,000 tons of CO2 annually by using geothermal energy in its greenhouses.

Quote
The following three companies have been nominated by the jury for the EZK Energy Award 2020:

- Dairy farm Stokman Koudum – The Stokman family business produces green gas by fermenting cattle manure. With this, homes in the Koudum are heated sustainably.
- PolyStryreneLoop BV – PolyStyreneLoop develops a sustainable recycling technique with which polystyrene foam can be used as an insulation material in construction.
- Kwekerij Ammerlaan – Kwekerij Ammerlaan saves more than 25,000 tons of CO2 annually by using geothermal energy in its greenhouses. Ammerlaan was chosen as the winner by the jury because of the connecting role that the company has played in the region. In addition to its own greenhouses, 24 other growers, apartments in Pijnacker-Noord, Stanislas College, a sports center and a swimming pool make use of geothermal energy.

kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #117 on: February 26, 2021, 10:20:48 PM »
Some findings from our pilot to make homes gas free.

At this early stage there are some areas where homeowners can get subsidies to get of the gas net. You can choose not to participate either because you do not want to or because you want to but the costs don´t add up.

https://www.nu.nl/wonen/6118382/aardgasvrij-maken-van-proefwijken-legt-volgens-planbureau-knelpunten-bloot.html

The first pilot projects for making homes gas free revealed some structural problems which made it harder to speed up the procees according to the PBL (Planbureau voor de Leefomgeving or Planning Bureau for the Environment where environment is the human one).

The way we do it now the process needs a lot of detailed tailoring. Every house is different.
There are no standards for cost sharing and it is also unclear who is responsible.

2050 should be the end date for gas warmed houses.
So by 2030 the first 1,5 million of houses should be disconnected.
Until may 2020 8000 houses were decoupled. Targets should be 50k this year and 200k per year in 10 years time.

TNO assumes targets will not be met unless there is more national coordination. Processes are hindered by European rules for aquisition and the cities are waiting for a new law on Warmth which should help build up new types of grids.

Practical details:
Houses and wishes of occupants differ.
Every house is a case of it´s own. Even if the houses were similar initially they might end up different to what people end up doing to them.
´
In the current set up just one home owner who is not interested makes things more expensive but then agian that is obvious and only a result of the stage we are in.

One practical detail: it is easier to change naighbourhoods with lots of corporation houses (rentals).

There is a flaw in costs. Gas is too cheap because the damage is not priced in. Because it is artificially cheap it also makes the cost balance on decoupled homes look worse.

TNO came up with another plan to accelarate the program. While the cabinet aimed for changes per neighbourhood controlled by cities (who determine the order) it would make more sense to look at all types of houses build the same way. This mostly comes down to the time the houses were build but it is a much better way to coordinate it. If you do this nationally it is also clearer for home owners.

About 80 to 90% of dutch homes can be grouped like this. If you are upgrading about 15,000 houses at the same time you could even make money on it.

https://www.nu.nl/wonen/6118382/aardgasvrij-maken-van-proefwijken-legt-volgens-planbureau-knelpunten-bloot.html

In general we need to plan this on a national scale, in fact we need to do a lot of this on a national scale like changing the grid and deciding what we build where. That should be obvious but it is contrary to the trend enabled by 10 years of liberalist vandalism.
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interstitial

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #118 on: February 27, 2021, 03:56:48 AM »
I do not know much about the Netherlands but hopefully they banned new gas connections first.

kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #119 on: February 27, 2021, 03:46:05 PM »
New houses should not be connected but there is a delay from the planning stage. In 2018 about 10% build that year still had them.

https://www.nu.nl/economie/6118912/tienduizenden-extra-technici-gezocht-klimaatdoelen-lijken-anders-onhaalbaar.html

The transition also needs an extra 23000 to 28000 extra technically skilled workers.
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kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #120 on: March 12, 2021, 08:30:27 PM »
We narrowly missed the described CO2 reduction goal of 25% despite the covid lock down.

The target was 25% below 1990 and we hit 24,5%. These numbers are preliminary.
Now they might get the number down to 25% but the ruling said structural lowering which means the target is not going to be met regardless.

https://www.nu.nl/klimaat/6121382/ook-met-tijdelijke-co2-dip-door-corona-haalt-kabinet-klimaatdoel-niet.html

No idea how they are going to sort that out next year. The proposed law for the nitrogen budget was another sham which is probably going to fail but we have an election next week first.
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kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #121 on: May 27, 2021, 07:37:24 PM »
Well we had an election and then a bit of a scandal so much of the actual policy got stalled.

Nitrogen and it´s direct consequences:

Quote
Stikstof veroorzaakt op de Veluwe twee soorten natuurschade, vermesting en verzuring, zegt bodemecoloog Wim van der Putten van onderzoeksinstituut NIOO-KNAW. Door vermesting drukt een klein aantal snelgroeiende planten talloze andere soorten weg. Verzuring leidt daarnaast tot ernstige tekorten aan andere mineralen, waardoor eiken sterven en vogels verdwijnen.

Not sure how to translate the technical terms but vermesting just means a number of quickly growing plants which are not part of the ecosystem overgrow there, the acidification leads to an acute mineral shortage which kills oaks and birds.

https://www.nu.nl/klimaat/6130230/van-vogels-tot-eikenbos-stikstof-nekt-leven-op-de-veluwe.html

May 21st:
Quote
Nieuwe stikstofwet laat natuurschade nog lang toenemen
In maart werd een nieuwe stikstofwet aangenomen. Naast extra compensatie voor landbouwbedrijven, moet die wet ervoor zorgen dat in 2030 in de helft van de Nederlandse Natura 2000-gebieden de neerslag van stikstofverbindingen onder de 'kritische depositiegrens' komt.

Probleem is niet alleen dat het maar voor de helft van de gebieden geldt, maar ook dat de natuurschade overal blijft toenemen zolang we niet onder die grenswaarde zitten, zegt Bobbink. "Stikstofvervuiling is cumulatief. Zolang de uitstoot te hoog blijft, stapelen de stikstofverbindingen steeds hoger op in de bodem van natuurgebieden. Met de reductie die de regering wil, is het heel aannemelijk dat de verslechtering van de Nederlandse natuur nog lang doorgaat."

So the actually did make up a law but once again it allows the pollution to build up.

In march we got the new law, it provided extra money for farms (buyouts?)
It aims to have half of dutch Natura 2000 areas under a critical border of nitrogen deposition.

the problems are that this is only half the area and the damage adds up as long as we do not respect the border values. The damage is cumulative with nitrogen getting added to the environment.

The current law sucks again and court cases might be looming although there also seems to be a broader coalition of Environmental activists, Farmers and the building companies trying to solve this and they might come up with a more practical solution.

*

Quote
Shell moet CO2-uitstoot verlagen, Milieudefensie wint historische klimaatzaak

In de strijd tegen klimaatverandering, is Shell verplicht de CO2-uitstoot tussen 2019 en 2030 te verlagen. Dat is het oordeel van de rechtbank in Den Haag in de klimaatzaak van Milieudefensie met 17.000 mede-eisers tegen Shell. De rechter legt een rechterlijk bevel aan Shell op om netto 45 procent CO2 te reduceren voor eind 2030. Het is wereldwijd de eerste keer dat een oliebedrijf aansprakelijk wordt gesteld voor klimaatverandering.

De rechter is van mening dat Shell een bijdrage moet leveren aan het terugdringen van klimaatopwarming. Weliswaar heeft het bedrijf duurzaamheidsdoelen geformuleerd. "Maar het beleid is nog niet concreet genoeg en het zit vol met voorbehouden", aldus de rechtbank woensdag.

Shell dreigt daarom niet te voldoen aan zijn reductieverplichting. Met het opleggen van een uitstootreductie van 45 procent ten opzichte van 2019 wil de rechter dit voorkomen. Op welke manier het bedrijf de uitstoot van CO2 terugbrengt, mag het zelf bepalen.

https://www.nu.nl/klimaat/6135292/shell-moet-co2-uitstoot-verlagen-milieudefensie-wint-historische-klimaatzaak.html

A dutch judge orders Shell to reduce CO2 45% by 2030.

It was a civil case hinging on human rights similar to the Urgenda case.

So what helped here is that the dutch government lost the Urgenda case because they were (typically) ignoring a treaty they signed. The whole case hinges on human rights.

Since the government has to commit everything else has to commit too that same idea since it overrules a lot of bs arguments. It basically spells do not steal your (grand) childrens future.

Makes sense to me although we will probably see an appeal by Shell.
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kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #122 on: June 24, 2021, 07:04:08 PM »
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Urgenda wil minder productie van groene energie in de vrije natuur

Klimaatorganisatie Urgenda presenteert donderdag een plan - een "boek" zoals ze het zelf noemt - waarin ze ervoor pleit minder zonne- en windenergie in weilanden en de vrije natuur te produceren. "Er zijn genoeg andere plekken waar dat kan", zegt directeur Marjan Minnesma tegen NU.nl. "Bovendien hebben we op land al genoeg windmolens om de klimaatdoelstellingen te halen."

Met het plan komt Urgenda tegemoet aan de verzuchtingen van veel Nederlanders die liever geen windmolens in hun buurt willen omdat die het uitzicht minder mooi maken. Daarnaast wil de organisatie vrije natuur en weilanden beschermen door windmolens voornamelijk in de zee te plaatsen en zonnepanelen vooral op bijvoorbeeld grote sporthallen.

"Er zijn genoeg daken en andere harde oppervlakken beschikbaar in Nederland om tegen 2030 de CO2-uitstoot te verminderen met 49 procent", zegt Minnesma. Dat is de doelstelling van het kabinet, in lijn met de afspraken uit het Parijse klimaatakkoord.
https://www.nu.nl/economie/6141404/urgenda-wil-minder-productie-van-groene-energie-in-de-vrije-natuur.html?redirect=1

On thursday climate orginization Urgenda revaled a plan:
-We should build less solar and wind on farming land and in nature.
-We already have enough land wind.
-Wind farms should go into the sea and solar panels should go on roofs of sports halls (and other big buildings).
-There are enough roofs and other hard surface available for solar to reduce CO2 by 49% by 2030.

So the trick is getting all that done. The politicians are in no hurry to form a new government it seems. We urgently need to change the style of the way we run things. None of the Rutte governments had a Ministry of the Environment, that needs to change, and then we need to coordinate the building and not building of things on a national scale.
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kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #123 on: October 01, 2021, 01:17:54 PM »
And we are in october. So after our march elections our politicians acted like a bunch of kids excluding all kind of parties and then they had a holiday break and now we are back to trying the original mix from our last coalition.

When the old government is still ruling after an election they are not allowed to propose laws that change things a lot (that should be set by the government now in formation) so that slows down solutions to our many problems.

Some recent articles:
The EU asks NL for a more ambitious climate target then the current one for 2030 to bring it inline with current EU targets

Our current policy for heavy industry is at odds with the EU´s overall goal. Our current fix is a mix of carbon capture and storage and blue hydrogen. The EU target is to take this straight to green hydrogen.

Our policies for electric cars and energy closure are in accordance with the Fit For 55 package.

Current dutch target is a reduction of 52% compared to 1990 emissions while this needs to be closer to 65% over the whole EU with at least a 68% reduction in the Netherlands.

https://www.nu.nl/klimaat/6158698/europa-vraagt-ook-nederland-om-een-ambitieuzer-klimaatdoel.html

The IMF requested the same but that articles has less numbers.

Current policy not on target to hit 49% reduction in 2030 and 95% in 2050 relative to 1990.

https://www.nu.nl/economie/6159507/imf-roept-nederland-op-om-meer-te-doen-tegen-klimaatverandering.html

Linked IMF report:
https://www.imf.org/en/News/Articles/2021/09/27/mcs092821-kingdom-of-the-netherlands-the-netherlands-staff-concluding-statement-2021-art-iv-mission

For the next year an extra 6,8 Billion has been reserved for climate change. The rain event of this summer surely helped highlighting climate change as a very current and local thing. Much less abstract then in the past.

It is quite a bit of money but it is mostly for plugging gaps.

For policy we must align with the EU goal as i wrote about above and we also have to match the goals we committed to earlier as forced by the URGENDA case. We came through the economic part of the pandemic quite well so our expected growth for next year is expected to be problematic (since it is not growing of green sources). And of course the coming winter better be mild.

So the monies:
600 million subsidy for electric cars and vans
3 billion for stimulating renewables and subsidy for CCS
750 million for upgrading old pipelines to use H2 for use in buildings
315 million for rest over heat to warm 120 thousand homes in the province of South Holland (from industry around Rotterdam probably)

A subsidy of 1000 to 2100 euro per homeowner is coming and also a program for improving isolation in homes (rentals and owned). Guess this in the 3 billion package.

https://www.nu.nl/klimaat/6158246/extra-geld-naar-klimaat-maar-onduidelijk-welk-doel-wordt-nagestreefd.html

One of the subsidy areas which a new government must look into is subsidies for solar panels.
The current idea is to decrease the amount of energy you can give back at consumer tariff from 2023 by 9% per year ending in 0% in 2030.

Currently what you generate is reduced from the overall use bill (the consumer tariff). So in the future it would reduce at a producer tariff which is a lot lower.

To reduce stress on the grid we need a mix of home batteries and EVs functioning as such.

https://www.nu.nl/wonen/6158658/zorgen-op-zonnepanelenmarkt-vanwege-onduidelijkheid-over-subsidie.html

We need some more integrated solution (a subsidy for combining the 3 things above).

We also need that in general for the whole of the country if we are to find a solution for the nitrogen problem while hitting EU targets and also building enough homes for everyone.



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kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #124 on: October 01, 2021, 09:34:45 PM »
Some more numbers.

Biomass up to 119 petajoule of energy, 10% more then last ear.
Biomass was 6% of NL energy in 2020 which made it the biggest renewable source.

54% is biomass
23% is wind
14% is solar

https://www.nu.nl/economie/6159744/gebruik-biomassa-voor-energie-blijft-maar-stijgen.html

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kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #125 on: October 09, 2021, 09:51:42 PM »
Some observations by outsiders.

https://www.nu.nl/klimaat/6160712/ziet-nederland-de-eigen-kwetsbaarheid-voor-klimaatverandering-wel-onder-ogen.html

translation of some points:

Quote
From the outside the picture of the Netherlands is clear. It is a small country which is mostly under water and as such it is vulnerable to sea level rise. In this way it´s like many small island states and other nations along river delta´s. But do the dutch see it this way?

Lasse Bech, danish anthropologist, studies the dutch response to sea level rise.
He expected more crises rhetoric in the debate but while it is there among experts it is not an issue for the public.

Simon Richter who is a german languages professor at the University of Pennsylvania notices a sort of denial which is related to the chosen self image.

"In the Nederlands they split the problem of climate change.: removing fossil fuels has a low priority while climate adaptation is seen as a business case which could make the country money by exporting expertise."

And that is why we need to project they are in control.

... some examples of bad ideas (we are maybe building a new village in the lowest point of the country and still maybe opening up a new gas field) ... we are like a patient in denial.

At 2M of sea level rise the sea walls won´t help because the salt just goes below it. At current projections we reach that level in 2100 and 50 years later it is 3 to 5 meters.

The people planning for coastal protection or water management seem to be reluctant to look beyond 2050 or 85 cm.

Another factor is that hardly anyone remembers a failure of the sea walls (last disaster was 1953).

So we keep investing in vulnerable areas. It´s a to deep to fail mentality .


But of course it will in the long run.

The splitting climate change solutions charge is very true but we do that with other things too. We say we want the dutch economy to be a knowledge economy but then we don´t invest into education in a meaningful way.
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kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #126 on: October 12, 2021, 05:28:42 PM »
The electric grid in the province of Utrecht cannot add any more solar parks, wind or rooftop solar from big roofs (industrial buildings?). The renewable sources are mostly in places with the thinnest cables. Upgrading will take some time. They are also short on specialized technicians.

https://www.nu.nl/economie/6161948/elektriciteitsnet-in-utrecht-kan-geen-nieuwe-zonne-en-windparken-meer-aan.html
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kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #127 on: October 14, 2021, 09:14:29 PM »
Same problem for the grid around Leeuwarden and Heerenveen and Harderwijk en Zaandam.

https://www.nu.nl/economie/6162317/in-steeds-meer-steden-kan-elektriciteitsnet-geen-nieuwe-groene-stroom-aan.html

Off course it was totally obvious that this problem was going to come up but practical problems are not sexy so they ignored it.
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kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #128 on: October 22, 2021, 05:07:06 PM »
However water management is a double sided coin.

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/12/can-the-netherlands-save-itself-from-rising-water-levels/

Good summery on the long term fight against water.

In the long term this is a problematic one since we are talking about 3-5 meter in a century.

In the story they mention the plans to build a town in the lowest point again while that went against the old overflow solution. It is a really stupid idea but then again that is no surprise from the current government (same party lead different coalitions for 10 years not of them had a ministry for the environment, not their thing).






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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #129 on: October 22, 2021, 07:54:33 PM »
Yes building a town there is not the cleverest is it. 

I worked in the ABN Amro datacentre building in Amstelveen.  It is a floating building designed to avoid issues with flooding.  Only it kept leaking and it took them years to get it right.

During my time I noticed a lot of new floating building designs going up.  I guess if you created the city that way, it would future proof it somewhat. But it is still not the cleverest idea.
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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #130 on: October 23, 2021, 09:38:05 AM »
The renewable sources are mostly in places with the thinnest cables. Upgrading will take some time.

However, via my "professional" blog for a change:

https://V2G.co.uk/2021/04/hyundai-announce-v2b-partnership-with-we-drive-solar/

Quote
In the presence of State Secretary Stientje van Veldhoven, Alderman Eelco Eerenberg and Representative Huib van Essen, Hyundai signed an agreement this morning with strategic partners to make Utrecht the first region in the world with a bidirectional ecosystem. In this ecosystem, the batteries of shared electric cars are used to store sustainable energy on a large scale.
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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #131 on: October 23, 2021, 09:44:07 AM »
I worked in the ABN Amro datacentre building in Amstelveen.

Intriguing! I spent quite a lot of time in Amstelveen not so very long ago. There was certainly a lot of water around!
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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #132 on: October 23, 2021, 10:16:55 AM »
I left in 2000 but I guess the main changes will be in the number of buildings.

I grew up in Lincolnshire so a totally flat area is normal to me.  Some people prefer hills.  ;D
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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #133 on: October 25, 2021, 02:01:37 PM »
Today the KNMI published the Klimaatsignaal'21 report.

They do a full report every 8 or 9 years on the changing climate and future scenarios. The full report with be published in 2023.

Most notable find is that the expected sea level rise is bigger then expected in the 2014 report.

The SLR has an upper bpund of 1,20 meters by 2100 with possibility that Antarctic ice loss takes that up to 2 meters but that part is still being discussed.

https://www.nu.nl/klimaat/6163142/knmi-zeespiegelstijging-voor-nederlandse-kust-dreigt-fors-te-versnellen.html
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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #134 on: October 25, 2021, 04:44:37 PM »
I haven't looked at the sea level rise figures in about a decade.  They have risen from 3.2mm to 3.6mm.  Apparently there was a stall for 3 years or so prompting the "it's OVER and you were WRONG" comments.  Followed by a massive jump and another small jump.

All the lower projections seem to estimate that SLR will continue at about the same level as it is today.  But this is with a massive drop in CO2 emissions.

We shall see but it does not look likely even with massive drops in CO2 emissions.

It seems to me that by 2050 we'll be well on the way to one of the other scenario's even if we do go net zero.
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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #135 on: November 13, 2021, 03:40:15 PM »
They must increase. With current forcings there will be more warming thus more melting and more thermal expansion.

It also matters where lots of ice gets lost. Greenland ice loss lowers the local sea level rise while Antarctic ice loss pushes it up so if Antarctic ice loss accelerates so will our local sea level rise.

The next story is very similar to one i posted earlier. The grid needs to be upgraded before more solar and wind can be added. The process takes years because:

Quote
Nu kan het wel tien jaar duren om een knooppunt in het hoogspanningsnet aan te passen: twee jaar om te bouwen en acht jaar om een vergunning te krijgen en juridische procedures te doorlopen.

Two years to build but eight years for procedures.

https://www.nu.nl/klimaat/6167439/nauwelijks-meer-ruimte-voor-zonneparken-op-bomvol-stroomnet.html
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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #136 on: November 27, 2021, 03:32:46 PM »
We have a fund for all kind of renewable projects related to taking houses off gas.

In Vlieland they came up with an interesting solution. It is small scale but the idea is interesting because it is so simple. They propose to dig up the sporting fields to put a 5 meter high water reservoir. It will be isolated really well. Then you put back the sports field on top of it.

Solar panels in the area are used to warm the houses  and the water is summer. The warm water is pumped back in winter months.

This method is a lot simpler and more energy efficient then pumping heat from far below the ground (and it is safer).
The solution can also be scaled well. In this case they use a field but you can do this with any big parking place next to a big building.

This is from the company that builds them:
https://hocosto.com/en/product/#voordelen

Seems an easy way to build the energy buffer for winter.   
« Last Edit: November 30, 2021, 10:53:38 PM by kassy »
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kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #137 on: November 30, 2021, 11:00:41 PM »
For a subsidy of 212,5 million euros we get to close Onyx coal power plant in Rotterdam. It was only active since 2015. It is good for 3 megatons of emissions per year. If we substitute natural gas for it that will cost 1,5 megatons per year so the gains depend on the mix of the solution.

https://www.nu.nl/economie/6170616/rotterdamse-kolencentrale-kan-sluiten-met-ruim-200-miljoen-euro-subsidie.html
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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #138 on: December 03, 2021, 04:48:20 AM »
The underground residential water reservoir as energy buffer is a really neat idea.

kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #139 on: December 03, 2021, 04:56:04 PM »
Yes nice and easy. If you are in a place where your city asks for suggestions, or there is a local group for greener building point them too this easy measure.

PS: ´you´ here is any reader out there.  :)
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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #140 on: December 07, 2021, 11:17:39 AM »
Hoge CO2-prijs bezorgt overheid miljardenmeevaller

De prijs die bedrijven moeten betalen voor de uitstoot van CO2 is maandag tot een recordniveau van 80 euro per ton gestegen. Daardoor moet de overheid miljarden minder aan subsidies voor klimaatprojecten uitkeren, schrijft de Volkskrant dinsdag.


https://www.nu.nl/economie/6171766/hoge-co2-prijs-bezorgt-overheid-miljardenmeevaller.html

So the price for emitted CO2 has risen to 80 euro´s per ton. This will save the government about 2,1 billion euros in climate subsidies. One example is the Porthos project.

More good news is that the money saved this way is still reserved for other CO2 saving projects.

The cost of CO2 emissions are related to the gas prices but even if those go down again the price will remain higher because less emission rights are coming to the market.
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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #141 on: December 08, 2021, 07:45:03 PM »
Rechtbank kraakt nationaal stikstofbeleid in besluit over Amercentrale

"Dweilen met de kraan open," zo oordeelt de rechtbank in Den Bosch over de de nieuwe Wet stikstofreductie en natuurverbetering. Ze komt tot dat oordeel in een vonnis over de stikstofuitstoot van de Amercentrale. De rechter vindt het onwenselijk dat de wet het mogelijk maakt dat ooit vergunde stikstofrechten "lukraak" worden ingezet. Dat is volgens de rechter gebeurd bij de Amercentrale, reden waarom die vergunning woensdag is vernietigd. De provincie Noord-Brabant krijgt zes maanden de tijd om tot een nieuw besluit te komen. In de tussentijd mag de centrale maar beperkt biomassa verstoken.

https://www.nu.nl/binnenland/6172107/rechtbank-kraakt-nationaal-stikstofbeleid-in-besluit-over-amercentrale.html

This story is about our nitrogen problem but the consequences are interesting.

For a long time our government preferred a paper solution for nitrogen right but that legislation was shot down in court some years ago (as many predicted). The government came up with new legislation which was better but they had to put in a back door.

The new law allows the use of latent rights which is rights which were granted before (with no check) to be used for new projects. The court ruled the old rights were not valid because they should have been rescinded so the total effect of biomass burning at the Amer plant needs to be checked.

The judges ruling we do not live in a paper reality helps a lot.
Maybe they will never find the margin for large scale biomass burning which would be great.
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kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #142 on: December 17, 2021, 10:37:08 AM »
Ook met nieuwe doelen blijft Nederlandse uitstoot hoger dan EU-gemiddelde

https://www.nu.nl/klimaat/6172353/ook-met-nieuwe-doelen-blijft-nederlandse-uitstoot-hoger-dan-eu-gemiddelde.html

Even with the two new climate targets which should make the Netherlands a front runner in Europe our emissions will still be 26-11% above the EU average.

The targets are a 55% reduction in 2030 compared to the 1990s emissions officially while unofficially we will aim for 60%

In 2020 the average emission per person is 9,4T of green house gasses so this would be 5,4 or 4,72 in 2030 but the EU average will go from 6,6 to 4,2T over that time frame.
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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #143 on: December 17, 2021, 08:22:51 PM »
Thanks for the info Kassy. I appreciate the information about the Netherlands even if I do not add to the conversation.

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #144 on: December 20, 2021, 12:09:58 PM »
I've read that the Netherlands plan to build two new nuclear reactors. Given their COVID policy, I'm not surprised they opt for another technofix.
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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #145 on: December 20, 2021, 04:40:34 PM »
Oh technofixes R Us and layers of money eating management that adds nothing but cost too.

I actually have not heard anything about that. Any idea were it came from?

Possibly from the agreement of the new (same as the old) coalition...but i scanned a newspaper article about that and it is not mentioned.
In the debate there are always voices that say we need those too because solar and wind are not enough. It would be interesting to who claimed that (preferably a link but if it is from paper then at least the name of who claimed that would be interesting). 
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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #146 on: December 21, 2021, 06:31:22 PM »
So it turns out it was actually in the agreement of the new government. It was not reported in the paper in the parts about climate or energy.

Today there was a letter today from Silvio Erkens , VVD member arguing we have to start building them right away.  He claims there is a majority for this in the 2nd chamber and nearly two third of the population are in favor.

I doubt that last claim. People think wind is fine but off coast if you live in the middle of the country. Not in your backyard. If they ever make it real a lot of people will figure out that we are a small country and it is their backyard so the support will plummet.

It was put in the agreement as a trade for VVD/CDA since they had to do a lot of concessions to their usual agenda. People will try to get it built but it will be fought so good luck with that.
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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #147 on: December 21, 2021, 07:18:52 PM »
Fighting it will be labelled anti-science, just like fighting vaccination mandates is. No QR code for you if you do anything to prevent lucrative technofixes.
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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #148 on: December 21, 2021, 10:04:35 PM »
But the stakes are different just as the perceived threats.

Any fix we will use is a technofix since there is no interest in an energy diet.

And there are failures in the system such as local municipalities approving Facebook/Meta data centers which gobble up tons of energy destroying privacy. We need to define a clear goal and a path to there which might include declining wasteful energy use.

Some of the plans of our new old government:

35billion euros for the next ten years. 22 of that is for making industry greener and improving infrastructure.

40% of our green house gas emissions are from 15 big companies.

Actually reading through the article it should be fair to note they do mention the nuclear plants, just missed it skim reading. 5 billion euro´s for that but not expected before 2035.

Some plan and funding for improving homes.

Coming 2030 there will be a new road tax. Details to be hammered out. The proposal is ages old. Originally it was meant to tax use and be more expensive in rush hour but it never got a majority. Now the move to EVs is eroding earnings from fuel taxes it´s back but as a generic tax. EVs do get a better rate then fuel cars.

Still missing:
 
Actually coordinating the change. We will have more ministers for housing and the nitrogen thing but it needs a bigger reshuffle. Just as we need to rethink were we keep our farms or remove them we need to plan for the whole country. Don´t add bs data centers. Hire enough people to upgrade the grid way before 2030 etc etc.
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kassy

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Re: Policy and solutions in the Netherlands
« Reply #149 on: December 29, 2021, 04:57:51 PM »
Renewable energy in NL grew 12,5% this year. Mostly from wind power from the sea.

It should be 16% in 2023 and we are on course for that target.

https://www.nu.nl/economie/6175586/windparken-op-zee-stuwen-productie-hernieuwbare-energie.html
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