Policy and solutions in the Netherlands

[Alexander555]

Is blue algae a problem in the Netherlands ? That's also a problem of to much nutrients in the water. Over here it's already a problem today. Normaly it starts in august. Some of the recreational waters are already closing.

[kassy]

Yes, it is also discussed in the article linked in reply 246 but briefly. If you have phosphate pollution which runs into the waters you get them.

[Sigmetnow]

Eva Vlaardingerbroek ⁦‪@EvaVlaar‬⁩
🇳🇱 UPDATE - The final “negotiations” between the Dutch farmers & the Dutch government have officially failed. The government didn’t budge and is going to proceed with their totalitarian land grab. New protests are expected this summer. Let’s get ready for the fight. #DutchFarmers

6/21/23 https://twitter.com/evavlaar/status/1671438001581293570

Landmark agriculture deal collapses; Cabinet to take measures itself | NL Times

The Cabinet will take its own measures to make the agricultural sector more sustainable now that it has not been possible to reach an agreement with the farmers. "But it cannot be the case that the Cabinet automatically implements what was already agreed in the agreement," said Agriculture Minister Piet Adema after the talks broke down.

Adema said he will discuss measures to be taken with the Cabinet on Friday, including a review of its own package of measures for the farming sector. This means bad news for the entire agricultural sector, because the Cabinet will not necessarily adopt all negotiated measures. "We are going to look more at our positions from where we started," Adema said about the Cabinet's perspective. …

https://nltimes.nl/2023/06/21/landmark-agriculture-deal-collapses-cabinet-take-measures

From 2022
The Netherlands’ Farm Crisis, Explained
June 12, 2022

One in three Dutch farms may need to close. It’s the most painful consequence of the government’s plan to cut nitrogen emissions in half by 2030.

The farmers’ lobby is furious, calling the plan “unrealistic” and an attack on the countryside. Pro-farmer parties have gained in the polls at the expense of the ruling Christian Democrats and liberals.

Provincial deputies, who would need to decide on a case-by-case basis which farms can stay and which need to go, fear a backlash in regional elections in March.
…
Before the coronavirus pandemic, Rutte — who has been in power for twelve years — called the nitrogen crisis the biggest of his political career. Yet there has been little coverage of it internationally. I suspect the reason is that Dutch media tend to emphasize reduction targets that are the result of judicial rulings, which gives foreign correspondents the impression that this is a Netherlands-only problem. But when you take a step back from nitrogen pollution and look at the impact of agriculture altogether, the Dutch is not an isolated case at all. It looks more like a preview of the future of intensive animal farming globally, if intensive animal farming has a future at all. …

https://atlanticsentinel.com/2022/06/the-netherlands-farm-crisis-explained/

[kassy]

Indeed, no agreement could be reached.

https://www.nu.nl/politiek/6268918/lto-stopt-met-gesprekken-over-landbouwakkoord-flinke-domper-voor-kabinet.html

LTO felt there where too much targets for farmers but a lack of perspective. They also don´t want a hard cap on the amount of animals which is one other measure coming.

Now tweets:

The final “negotiations” between the Dutch farmers & the Dutch government have officially failed. The government didn’t budge and is going to proceed with their totalitarian land grab. New protests are expected this summer. Let’s get ready for the fight.

The negotiations were actual negotiations. Long tradition too. Lets first see if we can work something out.

Here it is not possible.
There is more legislation from the EU coming and i think the farmers are not being realistic. There is no totalitarian land grab. There is a variety of offers listed above.
The object is not the land but to remove the real intensive animal farming to take a chunk out of the nitrogen deposition.

The last article it is old since it mentions the upcoming march elections. The backlash has come and talks in at least 2 provinces also collapsed near to an agreement. Very different agreement just sharing of power and responsibility. Not sure how many province coalitions have actually formed by now.

But when you take a step back from nitrogen pollution and look at the impact of agriculture altogether, the Dutch is not an isolated case at all.

It can not be.

It is a special case because:
1) We are the biggest farming exporter after the US. Size wise this makes no sense. Money wise it does. It is just one of our recent specialties and we have ran with policies that promote more efficient big farming until recently.

2) We are the good guys. We sign on to all kind of things to help but then we go back to money making. We signed enough international treaties to show that our current policies where a odds with those agreement and that is why the government lost the court case just as anybody involved with that version of the law predicted years ago.

Then we should get to see how this is solved. Apparently it is hard.

And in general this type of intense animal farming needs to be removed. Many comment paint a picture of ´farmers´ where people think of the old type but these are nothing like the large factory type modern farms. See the post on poisons on farms above and also consider that soy from the Amazon goes into this.

None of this is responsible farming, just farming as we do it now.

We know that globally we can´t keep doing what we do either. As so many things farming must be made sustainable but many profit from the non sustainable side so they will fight that. 

[Sigmetnow]

Thanks for the details, kassy.

[kassy]

A 100 days have passed since provincial elections and so far only 5 provinces have a coalition agreement. 7 to go.

Last election we had 9 by this date.

https://www.nu.nl/politiek/6269123/honderd-dagen-na-de-verkiezingen-zijn-pas-vijf-provincies-klaar-met-formeren.html

On the large scale the government in The Hague now has to come up with an actual national policy which will be problematic. CDA sort of wants to wiggle out of the commitments already to look like a better alternative to the BBB in coming national elections but well if they are next week they will still get decimated.

I bet they will talk until summer recess...

Edit: they will. A plan based on most what had nearly been agreed will come in september.

https://www.nu.nl/politiek/6269357/kabinet-komt-in-september-met-eigen-plan-voor-de-landbouwsector.html

[kassy]

https://www.nu.nl/economie/6271349/klimaatfonds-van-34-miljard-euro-krijgt-groen-licht-van-tweede-kamer.html

The 34 Billion climate fund has gotten enough support to be created.

And in other developments the cabinet dissolved over yet another crisis (changes to asylum laws).
Next election will be November. CDA will probably get decimated, BBB should become pretty big.

[kiwichick16]

 @  Kassy .... am i right in thinking the BBB is fighting against the plan to reduce pollution via intensive farming   

.....and just to be clear my partner has worked in the NZ dairy industry for 40 years ..... and still does ..... and is frustrated we have not done enough here to reduce ghg emissions from NZ agriculture.

We  ( the dairy industry ) are working on breeding low methane emitting cows but the low methane emitting bulls ( to mate the cows) probably won't be available until 2026 .

[kassy]

They don´t like the way it is done. And i bet they are 100% against disowning farmers.
But if they get elected they still need to hit the same targets and more because there is extra legislation from the EU in the next few years.

I have no clue what will happen but nothing will happen until next election...

We  ( the dairy industry ) are working on breeding low methane emitting cows but the low methane emitting bulls ( to mate the cows) probably won't be available until 2026 .


How much of the emissions are you targeting to reduce per cow in percentages? 

[kiwichick16]

@  kassy  re methane trial

https://www.lic.co.nz/news/bull-burps-could-hold-answer-breed-climate-friendly-cows/#:~:text=The%20pilot%20trial%2C%20by%20artificial,of%20New%20Zealand%27s%20dairy%20cows.

[kiwichick16]

@ kassy  more on low methane bulls

https://www.lic.co.nz/news/farmers-are-one-step-closer-to-breeding-more-climate-friendly-cows/


as per the text the lowest methane emitters are 15 - 20 % less than the average ...... obviously with breeding it can be cumulative over the generations .

The LIC has over the years bred both cross bred bulls and Short Gestation Bulls  ...... so that the cows calve earlier than if they were mated to bulls which would produce a normal gestation period .....as the vast majority od NZ herds are spring calving to coincide with spring grass growth.

[kassy]

Some updates on back ground developments.

There is a new report out on the kbw. That is the kritische depositiewaardeor critical deposition value for nitrogen in specific soils. This means that the budget is getting even stricter then it was because these official values are used in court cases.

https://www.nu.nl/binnenland/6278888/stikstofeisen-worden-strenger-natuur-is-gevoeliger-voor-stikstof-dan-gedacht.html

Of course some politicians are thinking about changing things so policy can be based on emissions instead of this value. That would lead to more time wasting and another round of court cases which they will lose over exactly the same point.

[kassy]

A new count of fossil fuel subsidies says it is 37,5 billion euros per year.

If we reduce them for 2025 (so now...) then we would easily make all the 2030 goals.
Main beneficiaries are shipping and planes.

https://www.nu.nl/economie/6279384/milieuclubs-nederland-besteedt-elk-jaar-375-miljard-aan-fossiele-subsidies.html

Bit more digging:
shipping (€6,7 miljard)
airplanes (€2,4)
fossil electricity (€5,4 miljard)
Oil processing  industry (€2,4 miljard)

The 2025 deadline is something we actually have committed to as a country (EU thing i guess, never heard about this).

https://www.somo.nl/nl/nog-meer-belastinggeld-naar-grote-vervuilers-dan-gedacht-375-miljard-aan-fossiele-subsidies/

[kassy]

And subsidies are fun so here is more:

12 out of 34 of the active subsidies from the ministry of Agriculture harm nature and biodiversity.
They are aimed at increasing scale so more animals per farmer and intensification so that takes more inputs such as fertilizer. 

https://nos.nl/artikel/2489391-onderzoek-deel-subsidieregelingen-voor-de-landbouw-kan-natuur-schaden

Most of these subsidies are relics from when EU was stimulating food production. They were never removed.

What this article does not say is that no one looked at it since 2019 as a possible solution to the nitrogen crises. Oh and this report is also the result of some EU thing from 2011 or so. So they were in no rush.

[kassy]

A new count of fossil fuel subsidies says it is 37,5 billion euros per year.

So because of all publicity the ministry who runs this shit actually delved into their numbers and they calculate about 39,7 to 46,4 billion euros per year. Slightly higher.

https://www.nu.nl/klimaat/6281087/fossiele-sector-krijgt-nog-meer-subsidie-dan-gedacht-40-tot-46-miljard-euro.html

Essentially part of our capitalist ´forever growth´ tax is making these things cheaper so removing them is also going to slow growth which you then have to compensate or you have to make do with less but that is hard.

Of course at some point the subsidies will do their work and contribute to Thwaites going down and sea levels going up which will take decades of our future. But that is another election cycle...

[Sigmetnow]

WHY THO?
 

Finding some surprises while cleaning the canals of Amsterdam.
9/18/23, 12:19 PM. https://x.com/fasc1nate/status/1703805855890858036
 
➡️ pic.twitter.com/QsEJgj5GHM  2 min. Claw-like excavator pulls BICYCLES out of the muck at bottom of a canal — and has filled a whole barge with them!

[kassy]

That is just dutch city folklore. We have the same canals (in fact all the canal scenes from Amsterdamned were filmed in Utrecht because it was cheaper plus it just looks better) and we occasionally fill a barge too.

It´s probably mostly drunk people throwing them in and apparently our canals are deep enough that you can throw in a lot of them before it hinders traffic.

[Neven]

Back in the days, I may have thrown one or two bikes in the canal because it was cheaper than to have them repaired. I was also drunk and stupid, thoroughly brainwashed by consumer culture. I did pick up cans off the street, however, because I don't like trash.

[Sigmetnow]

Thanks for the replies. 

China has you beat by a mile — they blame it on bike-sharing efforts causing a lack of respect and repairs.

[kassy]

You start something without thinking it through. Same thing happened in France but on a smaller scale. We don´t really have that problem because we lack space already.

Broken bikes into the canal yeah that was another thing. I actually watched them filling up a barge at the Drift way back. It´s still an impressive amount of bike wrecks. Both in the barge and in the grabber. And it was continuous. Six to ten wrecks every time.

Most of the bikes where not very valuable. Student wrecks.

[kassy]

The Porthos CO2 capture project is officially on. Big companies in the Rotterdam harbour including Shell and ExxonMobil will capture CO2 which will then be put in an empty gas field 20 kms out in the in the North Sea. The fields are at 3 to 4 KM depth.

The aim is to capture 2,5 megaton of CO2 for 15 years. So about 37 MT total.

It will take at least 3 years to build so it will not start operating until 2026/2027.

https://www.nu.nl/economie/6285825/eerste-co2-opslagproject-van-nederland-definitief-van-start.html

[kassy]

The electricity grid is almost at full capacity. Many regions cannot add big users. About 6000 are on a wait list. In North Holland the wait list is closed.

There is space for households but it will run out in 2026 in Flevoland, Gelderland and Utrecht around 2026. We also need to build several hundred thousands of homes soon, preferably in the same time frame although that is also severely delayed. For Utrecht city alone we are looking at adding well over 10000 houses in one redevelopment area.

From 2025 on 8 billion euros will be spend on upgrading by the companies that run the nets.
The government want to help speed things up by streamlining the permit process. The projects will be designated very important to society. So that probably means less court cases to slow things down.

We also need to train an extra 13000 people for the work. 



at het kabinet juridische procedures en het verlenen van vergunningen versnellen. "Dat kan bijvoorbeeld door bepaalde uitbreidingen van het net als 'zwaarwegend maatschappelijk belang' aan te merken om zo de procedure met anderhalf jaar te verkorten", stelt Jetten.

Voor de uitbreiding van het elektriciteitsnet zijn de komende jaren dertienduizend nieuwe mensen nodig, terwijl de technieksector al kampt met een groot personeelstekort. "Op dit moment hebben we die mensen nog niet, dus de uitbreiding kan vertraging oplopen", zegt voorzitter Maarten Otto van Netbeheer Nederland.

https://www.nu.nl/politiek/6285846/stroomnet-overal-zo-goed-als-vol-kabinet-trekt-miljarden-uit-voor-uitbreiding.html

[Bart Vreeken]

Large parts of the Netherlands are already 2 to 5 meters below sea level. There is a long tradition of protecting the land from the sea. The country can also cope with a further sea level rise of a few meters, but with enormous adjustments and investments. One of the problems is the discharge of river water from the Rhine and the Meuse. If the coast is closed, it will have to be disposed of with huge pumping stations. A new report shows that it is achievable.

Previously, it was thought that 2 meters was the maximum that the land can handle.

The message below is in Dutch, please use Google Translate

https://nos.nl/collectie/13871/artikel/2497163-rapport-met-hogere-dijken-kan-nederland-3-meter-zeespiegelstijging-aan

https://www.h2owaternetwerk.nl/h2o-actueel/tussenbalans-kennisprogramma-technisch-kan-nederland-een-zeespiegelstijging-tot-3-meter-aan#:~:text=Als%20we%20verder%20gaan%20met,zeespiegelstijging%20te%20beschermen%20tegen%20overstromingen.

[kassy]

New report: The Netherlands can cope with three metres of sea level rise.

Can technically cope with three metres is not the same as being able to pay for that. There are also background changes such as decline in snow cover feeding the rivers which causes big salt problems way in land because the rivers get weaker relative to the oceans. The same problem happens with sea level rise. The salt just comes up from below especially if you add another meter to sea level.

[Alexander55]

Large parts of the Netherlands are already 2 to 5 meters below sea level. There is a long tradition of protecting the land from the sea. The country can also cope with a further sea level rise of a few meters, but with enormous adjustments and investments. One of the problems is the discharge of river water from the Rhine and the Meuse. If the coast is closed, it will have to be disposed of with huge pumping stations. A new report shows that it is achievable.

Previously, it was thought that 2 meters was the maximum that the land can handle.

The message below is in Dutch, please use Google Translate

https://nos.nl/collectie/13871/artikel/2497163-rapport-met-hogere-dijken-kan-nederland-3-meter-zeespiegelstijging-aan

https://www.h2owaternetwerk.nl/h2o-actueel/tussenbalans-kennisprogramma-technisch-kan-nederland-een-zeespiegelstijging-tot-3-meter-aan#:~:text=Als%20we%20verder%20gaan%20met,zeespiegelstijging%20te%20beschermen%20tegen%20overstromingen.

There is a canal system that starts from Luik ( Belgium), on the Meuse. I think today the volume is very low. Just to bring the boats to a lower/ higher elevation. If it would have the possebility to have the water run free when needed, it could probably handle much higher volumes. Not sure if it would be better, that would move the water to the port of Antwerp. Sometimes there is a special high tide,  at that point the water is almost at street level. But that's just a few hours.

[Freegrass]

Does the Netherlands (Lowlands) include Belgium (Flanders (not the neighbor of the Simpsons))?

Staalbedrijf ArcelorMittal opent biokoolcentrale van 35 miljoen in haven van Gent

https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/12/19/staalbedrijf-arcelormittal-opent-biokoolcentrale-van-35-miljoen/

Het staalbedrijf ArcelorMittal is verantwoordelijk voor een aanzienlijk deel van de luchtvervuiling rond Gent. Dat bleek recent nog uit een rapport van de Vlaamse Milieumaatschappij. Het bedrijf doet inspanningen om te vergroenen. De ambities zijn hoog: het staalbedrijf wil tegen 2050 klimaatneutraal zijn. De installatie Torero, die afvalhout omzet in biokool, kadert in dat plan.

De installatie werkt met afvalhout, legt Kenneth Toch uit: "Dat vinden we op containerparken. Kasten en dergelijke en dat recycleren we. Dat hout wordt vermalen en komt in een reactor terecht. Dat is een cilinder van zo'n 3 meter hoog en 10 meter lang. We brengen dat op een temperatuur van 300 tot 400 graden. Dan gaan alle lijm en teer als gas ontsnappen uit het hout. Wat resteert op de bodem van de reactor zijn de biokolen. De gassen die ontsnappen, worden verbrand en de energie daarvan wordt weer gerecycleerd om het hout te drogen en op temperatuur te houden." De biokool is dus een vorm van houtskool. "Daarmee kan je het 't beste vergelijken, houtskool zoals van de barbecue, maar met andere eigenschappen." 

Er hebben de voorbije maanden 70 mensen aan Torero gewerkt. Onderzoekscentra uit Oostenrijk en Zweden waren betrokken, Europa betaalde mee. De installatie is klaar en moet elk jaar bijna 90.000 ton afvalhout omzetten in zo'n 40.000 ton biokool. Ze vervangt deels de fossiele kool die nu gebruikt wordt. Die brandstof zal gebruikt worden in de hoogovens en biogas opleveren. Dat gas kan omgezet worden in ethanol, een grondstof voor cosmetische producten en kleren.

Het staalbedrijf maakt zich sterk dat de nieuwe installatie helpt in de ambities om de CO₂-uitstoot te verlagen. Het bedrijf wil in 2030 al ruim een derde minder uitstoten. Tegen 2050 moet de uitstoot tot nul herleid zijn. Torero zou al goed zijn voor een vermindering van 112.500 ton per jaar.

[kassy]

Not really but Gent is close enough. They better monitor what they burn. If it is all waste wood from container parks that is fine.

[Freegrass]

Not really but Gent is close enough. They better monitor what they burn. If it is all waste wood from container parks that is fine.

See how you are? They're not "burning" anything....

[kassy]

They burn waste wood. If that stream is enough to provide 90 thousand tons per year then that is fine but if that dries up they are going to look for other wood products to burn. It´s a very badly regulated market which kills forests if no one cares as in the Drax example.

This application is superior to using wood to just burn it for energy because they have optimized bio coal and use that as a direct substitute for fossil fuel. They burn that too i bet.

If it is all waste wood it is fine. No idea how much of that we have in a year. Probably enough but their sourcing sounded weird. If there was some deal to just send the whole waste stream of discarded furniture and old doors their way that would sound more reassuring. We will see.

They also did not give us numbers for the actual reduction. It´s probably not a 1 on 1 substitute.

[kassy]

Spring update...

We had elections which so far have not resulted in a government. This means that not much new things are happening. We withdrew support from the new EU climate law but that did not change the outcome in the EU.

From this year our farmers get to spread less manure on their land because the derogation ended. We were allowed to spread more then other countries in the EU but that ended because the improvements promised to Brussels never happened.

https://www.nu.nl/stikstof/6301498/er-mag-veel-minder-mest-het-land-op-en-dat-zorgt-voor-een-penibele-situatie.html

the BBB (the farmers party, sort of) proposed to ask for more time outs from the EU but we used them all up in the last decade or so.

The grid needs much more investments but that is all moving really slowly.

In one debate the best thing they could come up with was to build 4 instead of  nuclear reactors. There is a tiny problem though. There is only room for one extra by 2035.

https://www.nu.nl/klimaat/6303390/ook-voor-twee-nieuwe-kerncentrales-is-niet-zomaar-ruimte-op-het-stroomnet.html

The rest of the capacity is needed for the off shore wind projects.

There are lots of problems to find enough capacity for planned new housing projects and industrial users in many areas. So this is a problem for at least the next decade or so.

[kassy]

In 2023 Tata Steel in IJmuiden was the biggest CO2 emitter with 8,5 million tonnes. 4,5 from production and 4,0 from electricity production using the residual gasses from production.

This is more then our 4 coal powered plants combined. Tata was 24% down but that was just a half year of maintenance so it will rise again this year.

Oil refinery Shell is second. The top ten has 3 more refineries and some chemical companies.

...

Dutch emissions from these sources (big companies in the Emission Trade System) dropped 13% vs 15,5% for Europe.

https://www.nu.nl/klimaat/6298724/ook-huishoudens-krijgen-last-van-overvol-stroomnet-flinke-ingrepen-nodig.html

[trm1958]

Oil giant Shell wins appeal against landmark Dutch climate ruling to slash emissions
Story by Sam Meredith • 1h • 4 min read

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/oil-giant-shell-wins-appeal-against-landmark-dutch-climate-ruling-to-slash-emissions/ar-AA1tVFCE?ocid=BingNewsSerp

[kassy]

In the earlier case a judge ordered them to reduce emissions by 45%.  This was overruled. So Shell should be in line with the Paris goals but a judge cannot set a target because the fossil fuels would then simply be provided by another company.

There is still one round of appeals but this might hold.

Litigating against the state is easier because they committed to all kinds of things and then ignored them. This works a lot better with our government then in the US because they don´t sign onto things that commit them to do things on others terms.