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Sebastian Jones

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Re: The off topic off topic thread
« Reply #100 on: October 15, 2020, 05:46:11 AM »
I have discovered a fundamental rule of living nature:

           If you kill a lifeform on purpose, you have to eat it.
'Discovered' or invented?

nanning

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Re: The off topic off topic thread
« Reply #101 on: October 15, 2020, 09:26:53 AM »
What do you mean by that?
I do not like your response to a major discovery of mine. Perhaps you don't understand it but then you shouldn' react like this.
Is this because you think you are 'higher' than me? Or a better scientist?

Are you a bully perchance?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
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Sebastian Jones

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Re: The off topic off topic thread
« Reply #102 on: October 16, 2020, 06:11:50 AM »
What do you mean by that?
I do not like your response to a major discovery of mine. Perhaps you don't understand it but then you shouldn' react like this.
Is this because you think you are 'higher' than me? Or a better scientist?

Are you a bully perchance?
Oh, I'm terribly sorry Nanning, I really meant no offence. I could perhaps have inserted a wink emoji to indicate I was not being very serious.
Perhaps I did not really understand your post, in which case I should have said so.
As it happens, I think the rule you describe is more aspirational than fundamental.

nanning

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Re: The off topic off topic thread
« Reply #103 on: October 16, 2020, 09:41:08 AM »
Please respect my expertise in this Sebastian. And please find a contradiction or counter example if you've been 'thinking' about it. That would be helpful :).
I am a scientist and do my science and thinking outside. For more than 5 years now.
It must be comfortable to be able to put away my findings just like that. But hey, I am used to it. No hard feelings.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

SimonF92

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Re: The off topic off topic thread
« Reply #104 on: October 16, 2020, 10:31:49 AM »
Infanticide happens in certain large predator species. Orcas are also recorded to "torture" seals to death and then not eat them. Chimps engage in deadly tribal warfare without eating each other. Even certain corvidae birds will intentionally kill each other over territorial disputes
Bunch of small python Arctic Apps:
https://github.com/SimonF92/Arctic

nanning

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Re: The off topic off topic thread
« Reply #105 on: October 16, 2020, 10:37:08 AM »
Thanks for engaging SimonF92. Interesting.
Could you please provide some links?
I want to be able to see how much of the interpretations are suffering from civilisation bias/anthropomorphism and include the possibility of sick/crazy animals or otherwise out-of-bounds. I further accept that in the current very degraded ecosystems and pollution, other factors may be at play.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

SimonF92

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Re: The off topic off topic thread
« Reply #106 on: October 16, 2020, 11:03:15 AM »
No problem! I studied a bit of ecology at undergraduate before moving to genetics. Though the two are inherently related, I find animals more interesting than nucleotides.

Infanticide:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/3873026?seq=1

Orcas:
(Cant find an article on this but there are anecdotes and videos- dont like posting non-articles)

Chimps:
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature13727

Corvidae:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272420132_Magpie_interactions_with_other_birds_in_New_Zealand_Results_from_a_literature_review_and_public_survey

(this one is even more disturbing because quote:

"
This study indicates that magpies can attack a wide range of species but fails to determine why (no one explanation satisfies all cases)
"
Bunch of small python Arctic Apps:
https://github.com/SimonF92/Arctic

kassy

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Re: The off topic off topic thread
« Reply #107 on: October 16, 2020, 06:46:35 PM »
Infanticide happens in certain large predator species. Orcas are also recorded to "torture" seals to death and then not eat them. Chimps engage in deadly tribal warfare without eating each other. Even certain corvidae birds will intentionally kill each other over territorial disputes

And cats will bring you all kinds of stuff.

Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

nanning

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Re: The off topic off topic thread
« Reply #108 on: October 17, 2020, 12:06:16 PM »
Thank you very much SimonF92, I'll read those links. Nice.


kassy, if you mean domesticated cats, those are not living nature. That's exactly the bias I mentioned above.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Sebastian Jones

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Re: The off topic off topic thread
« Reply #109 on: October 17, 2020, 06:16:26 PM »
Thank you very much SimonF92, I'll read those links. Nice.


kassy, if you mean domesticated cats, those are not living nature. That's exactly the bias I mentioned above.

Weasels are notorious for going on killing sprees, even when there is no possibility of getting to eat everything they killed. Wolves are also known to high grade the best bits from Caribou when the killing is easy. Typically, predators do eat what they kill because it is so difficult and dangerous to kill something. However, when circumstances allow, killing to excess is very common.
Lions and bears and several other species regularly commit infanticide, they do so not for food but to eliminate genetic competition or to stimulate oestrus.
In fact there are so many examples of wildlife killing for purposes other than for sustenance, that I was not serious in my initial response.
I did not know you were an expert in the field.
I admit I am not.

Alexander555

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kassy

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Re: The off topic off topic thread
« Reply #111 on: October 17, 2020, 10:50:19 PM »
That is an interesting project. I would love to see the numbers on carbon costs/savings.

As too the cats...

Well the non domestic cats will probably do that too but not bring it too you because they do not know you.

Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

nanning

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Re: The off topic off topic thread
« Reply #112 on: October 18, 2020, 09:02:19 AM »
Sebastian, I am no expert in any academic field. I am no academic although I have a Bsc physics background (without a title, without 'honours' which is my goal, see R.P.Feynman's interviews with whom I deeply agree about almost everything).

The things you state are interesting and some I have read before but never with links. Could you please provide some links?

kassy, indeed. Cats in living nature just catch and eat their prey. There is an enormous difference between domesticated animals and living nature animals. More than people assume. Animals in nature have some kind of culture; an upbringing in living nature by their living nature mother cat; not born in captivity; not fed by humans; not learned to live with this large prey animal and are part of ecosystems. Perhaps I can think of more later :).
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

kassy

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Re: The off topic off topic thread
« Reply #113 on: October 18, 2020, 01:43:24 PM »
But the point is that they still play with their food and sometimes don´t eat it.

Some predators bring harmless live prey home so the little ones can practice a bit although that is education. They also eat selectively eating only choice parts of the carcass leaving the other parts for many other animals. You can label that as ecological services but in no way do they have to eat all they kill.

Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Sebastian Jones

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Re: The off topic off topic thread
« Reply #114 on: October 18, 2020, 08:34:59 PM »
Sebastian, I am no expert in any academic field. I am no academic although I have a Bsc physics background (without a title, without 'honours' which is my goal, see R.P.Feynman's interviews with whom I deeply agree about almost everything).

The things you state are interesting and some I have read before but never with links. Could you please provide some links?

kassy, indeed. Cats in living nature just catch and eat their prey. There is an enormous difference between domesticated animals and living nature animals. More than people assume. Animals in nature have some kind of culture; an upbringing in living nature by their living nature mother cat; not born in captivity; not fed by humans; not learned to live with this large prey animal and are part of ecosystems. Perhaps I can think of more later :).

Here is a quick link, with references, to infanticide in animals. A good place to start.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide_(zoology)

nanning

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Re: The off topic off topic thread
« Reply #115 on: October 22, 2020, 09:37:42 AM »
I amended the fundamental rule. Thank you for your posts. They extended my analysis and understanding.

  If you kill a lifeform on purpose, you or your tribe have to eat at least part of it.
  i.e. Killing on purpose is for food only.

N.B.: Infants are not part of living nature yet. They are fed by others.
         Infanticide is part of evlution by natural selection.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

KiwiGriff

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Re: The off topic off topic thread
« Reply #116 on: October 22, 2020, 10:08:00 AM »
Sorry I don't eat rats, mice,  possums, or magpies.
I kill the many invasive species that infest NZ and will continue to do so  in the name of the ecology of my country. If we don't cull such animals NZ will lose many of the unique  species found here.

New Zealand  has an official policy to eliminate introduced Predator mammalian and marsupial species.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predator_Free_2050


 Your view of nature is divorced from the hash reality of the real world.
Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
Notebooks of Lazarus Long.
Robert Heinlein.

nanning

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Re: The off topic off topic thread
« Reply #117 on: October 23, 2020, 06:51:47 AM »
It is not my "view of nature". It is how living nature operates.
Your idea of what the "real world" is, is incorrect. The 'harsh reality' for living nature is civilisation's total destruction.

The 'world context' is the context of living nature, not the context of humans. Civilisation humans exhibit absolute supremacy, domination and control over all other life...    even over their own females

"in the name of ecology"
yes of course, the ecology of how humans want living nature to be. Killing other lifeforms not for food but to 'correct' errors humans made, having degraded it themselves by bringing the invasive species in the first place. And still new invasive species are brought in. You call that sanity?


A conseqence of forementioned rule and of concern to humans is:

  Omnivore prey animals don't purposely kill a predator that's larger than them

So to e.g. kill a bear for its skin is not living nature behaviour, i.e. not sane.
We should have gone south when it got cold.


I have to be careful to differentiate between humans and civilisation humans. Together they are humanity
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

PragmaticAntithesis

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Re: The off topic off topic thread
« Reply #118 on: October 24, 2020, 09:51:20 PM »
I just found blumenkraft on reddit. Fun times were had!
A single seed in the right place can sprout an entire forest.

oren

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Re: The off topic off topic thread
« Reply #119 on: October 25, 2020, 02:01:06 AM »
Blumenkraft - wish you were here.

nanning

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Re: The off topic off topic thread
« Reply #120 on: October 25, 2020, 08:29:39 AM »
Thanks PragmaticAntithesis :). Very good to read that he's had fun times.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

nanning

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Re: The off topic off topic thread
« Reply #121 on: November 02, 2020, 09:23:37 AM »
As a follow-up on my previous posts in this context.

Reformulation.

All prey species behave as prey. Prey do not purposely kill 'their' predators.
A predator will not purposely kill another predator except perhaps for territorial disputes or if one is prey to the other.

&

Observation: Birds can have some inter species communication. That is really something totally unexpected and mind boggling.

&

If life form = Plantae

"Killing a life form on purpose and not eat it"-rule doesn't seem to hold for 'it' being plants, e.g. elephants pushing over living trees in Africa.

If someone has anything to add or comment, please do.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Ranman99

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Re: The off topic off topic thread
« Reply #122 on: November 02, 2020, 11:32:44 AM »
I don't know there is a little bit of cat in a lot of mammals. The thrill of the hunt and the strange excitement of the slow torture. Long drawn out game.

This seems a little blanket to me. Plus whatever is, is the way it now is. Can't go back in time. As Sagan used to say if you want to now make an apple pie from scratch first you have to create this universe ;-) Well he did not say it quite that way. But that's how he meant it. ;-)

So on that note what we have here is what we could call the "development". Getting out of it would be great but seems nigh impossible. One could better postulate how will the mammals all go extinct and in what order.

Most of what I see these days seems to forget that the hundreds of nuke plants are likely to mostly melt down at some point.

Anyway. It's raining here ;-) Can't go out and play! Peace :-*
Randy Fitton

nanning

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Re: The off topic off topic thread
« Reply #123 on: November 02, 2020, 12:29:07 PM »
Interesting Ranman99.

  "Anyway. It's raining here ;-) Can't go out and play!"

Why not? What's wrong with rain? ;)

Could you please explain what you mean by "getting out of 'development'"?


And re: postulate how and in what order the mammals will (all) go extinct. That seems morbid and detached to me. Perhaps I misunderstood.

You could also start with postulating how and in what order all the poor humans will die from the rich countries' Climate Change and callous consumption. Perhaps enjoy yourselves with a nice poll. ;)


All the ice may melt but the hearts of rich people remain frozen.
They'd rather have poor people and non-iconic wildlife die than make deep personal sacrifices to their consumption.
(o no no no it's the governments that need to change first... Ah. Nice. Kicking the can down the road of personal responsibility.)
Am I coming through?... I seem to be having a bad connection. Any advise on that?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

nanning

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Re: The off topic off topic thread
« Reply #124 on: November 03, 2020, 05:11:38 AM »
A consequence of forementioned fundamental rule of living nature, regarding:

           WASPS


IF YOU PURPOSELY KILL A WASP, YOU HAVE TO EAT IT


You may think that you are attacked, but in reality you aren't.

Being inconvenienced and/or irrationally fearful is not the same as being attacked. And your life is not in danger.

A wasp can't kill you and a wasp will never attack you if it's not attacked first.

Bon Appétit :)

P.S. This also goes for mosquitoes etc.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?