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Author Topic: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences  (Read 91387 times)

The Walrus

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1100 on: December 27, 2020, 02:45:39 PM »
“Policy response. This decisively shapes the recovery path and is a clear silver lining of the Covid recession. The speed, feasibility, and effectiveness of fiscal policy has been demonstrated, above all in the U.S. There remains a common misperception that virus caseloads and Covid deaths are strict determinants of economic performance. In reality, the correlation is weak — precisely because a strong economic policy response effectively bridges some of the economic damage from less successful virus control efforts. Think of how U.S. efforts at virus control largely failed relative to other rich nations —  in Europe, for example — yet U.S. real growth has still come out ahead. The much bolder U.S. policy effort explains that outcome. Yet, the ultimate impact of policy is to prevent a different type of contagion — household and firm bankruptcies and a wobbly banking system — and this is where structural damage comes in.”

hbr.org/amp/2020/11/why-the-global-economy-is-recovering-faster-than-expected

This says to me that if the economy isn't affected by the spread of the virus, then the extra thousands and thousands of dead people arent important.... economy number one.

The additional thousands of deaths amount to 0.07% of the population, (in 2019, 0.87% of the population died, and estimated 2020 totals will reach 0.94%).  Additionally, 75% of the deaths are people over 65.  That is not to say they are not important, but that their numbers are an extremely small percentage of the total population.  The fear of the virus likely has a bigger impact.

I am fairly sure all those people that wouldn't have died from Covid would disagree with you. Clearly, you are on the side that the health of the economy is worth killing people without a reason.

What the fuck is wrong with people?

How did you come to that ridiculous conclusion?  That would be akin to me saying that you do not care about the poor as long as the rich old guys stay healthy. 

Those are false dichotomies, and have no business in a reasonable debate.

etienne

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1101 on: December 27, 2020, 03:12:34 PM »
If you add the positive cases, the quarantine cases and the "at risk" cases, you get a few % of the population reducing their consumption, enough to have an economic slow down.
So you can add all the people who lost part of their incomes and you get a bad situation, with or without lockdown. A lockdown might allow a quicker return to normality.

The Walrus

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1102 on: December 27, 2020, 04:24:47 PM »
If you add the positive cases, the quarantine cases and the "at risk" cases, you get a few % of the population reducing their consumption, enough to have an economic slow down.
So you can add all the people who lost part of their incomes and you get a bad situation, with or without lockdown. A lockdown might allow a quicker return to normality.

That is the theory at least.  The only real question is how much the lockdown hurt the economy.  Does bigger pain over a shorter term outweigh smaller pain over a larger term?  How many businesses were forced into bankruptcy that may have been able to weather a lesser recession?  We will probably never truly know.

kassy

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1103 on: December 27, 2020, 09:00:11 PM »
Quote
the health of the economy is worth killing people without a reason.
Actually that is our standard mode of operations. Year after year traffic kills people next to the road but it does so slowly and it is mostly the poor so no biggy. See the economic inequality thread for a bunch of other mostly US examples. Then there are things like specialist laws being pre written by special interests (crap standards for the oil industry, big chem, ridiculous exemptions etc).
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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1104 on: December 27, 2020, 10:54:28 PM »
If you add the positive cases, the quarantine cases and the "at risk" cases, you get a few % of the population reducing their consumption, enough to have an economic slow down.
So you can add all the people who lost part of their incomes and you get a bad situation, with or without lockdown. A lockdown might allow a quicker return to normality.

That is the theory at least.  The only real question is how much the lockdown hurt the economy.  Does bigger pain over a shorter term outweigh smaller pain over a larger term?  How many businesses were forced into bankruptcy that may have been able to weather a lesser recession?  We will probably never truly know.
If something this pandemic has proven is that the capitalist belief of “the economy must grow to be healthy” is dead wrong. The economy can survive not two but ten lockdown so long as a just and fair redistribution is in place.

But if the first thing governments do is to rescue the top 0.1%, well, we are in for a slaughter.

etienne

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1105 on: December 27, 2020, 10:57:28 PM »
If you add the positive cases, the quarantine cases and the "at risk" cases, you get a few % of the population reducing their consumption, enough to have an economic slow down.
So you can add all the people who lost part of their incomes and you get a bad situation, with or without lockdown. A lockdown might allow a quicker return to normality.

That is the theory at least.  The only real question is how much the lockdown hurt the economy.  Does bigger pain over a shorter term outweigh smaller pain over a larger term?  How many businesses were forced into bankruptcy that may have been able to weather a lesser recession?  We will probably never truly know.
Well, I wonder if the impact of covid-19 is not anecdotal compared to the one of AGW. Maybe this is a one in a lifetime opportunity to look for another economic system.

Rodius

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1106 on: December 28, 2020, 01:17:40 AM »
If you add the positive cases, the quarantine cases and the "at risk" cases, you get a few % of the population reducing their consumption, enough to have an economic slow down.
So you can add all the people who lost part of their incomes and you get a bad situation, with or without lockdown. A lockdown might allow a quicker return to normality.

That is the theory at least.  The only real question is how much the lockdown hurt the economy.  Does bigger pain over a shorter term outweigh smaller pain over a larger term?  How many businesses were forced into bankruptcy that may have been able to weather a lesser recession?  We will probably never truly know.
Well, I wonder if the impact of covid-19 is not anecdotal compared to the one of AGW. Maybe this is a one in a lifetime opportunity to look for another economic system.

There are several excellent economic system options. But those in wealth and power would have to... sacrifice something.... and that isn't going to happen easily.

Rodius

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1107 on: December 28, 2020, 01:26:38 AM »
“Policy response. This decisively shapes the recovery path and is a clear silver lining of the Covid recession. The speed, feasibility, and effectiveness of fiscal policy has been demonstrated, above all in the U.S. There remains a common misperception that virus caseloads and Covid deaths are strict determinants of economic performance. In reality, the correlation is weak — precisely because a strong economic policy response effectively bridges some of the economic damage from less successful virus control efforts. Think of how U.S. efforts at virus control largely failed relative to other rich nations —  in Europe, for example — yet U.S. real growth has still come out ahead. The much bolder U.S. policy effort explains that outcome. Yet, the ultimate impact of policy is to prevent a different type of contagion — household and firm bankruptcies and a wobbly banking system — and this is where structural damage comes in.”

hbr.org/amp/2020/11/why-the-global-economy-is-recovering-faster-than-expected

This says to me that if the economy isn't affected by the spread of the virus, then the extra thousands and thousands of dead people arent important.... economy number one.

The additional thousands of deaths amount to 0.07% of the population, (in 2019, 0.87% of the population died, and estimated 2020 totals will reach 0.94%).  Additionally, 75% of the deaths are people over 65.  That is not to say they are not important, but that their numbers are an extremely small percentage of the total population.  The fear of the virus likely has a bigger impact.

I am fairly sure all those people that wouldn't have died from Covid would disagree with you. Clearly, you are on the side that the health of the economy is worth killing people without a reason.

What the fuck is wrong with people?

How did you come to that ridiculous conclusion?  That would be akin to me saying that you do not care about the poor as long as the rich old guys stay healthy. 

Those are false dichotomies, and have no business in a reasonable debate.

Actually, you have been quite adamant about making sure you point out how few people have died with your percentages.... as if it isn't really all that bad.

Like this... The additional thousands of deaths amount to 0.07% of the population, (in 2019, 0.87% of the population died, and estimated 2020 totals will reach 0.94%).  ....

Hardly a small deal when an extra 9ish% of deaths happen.
And of course, my favorite, it is mostly people over 65. Clearly they don't count.

And lets not worry about the ongoing organ damage and problems Covid is producing.

The main thing by you is the economy isn't affect regardless of lockdown or not..... this is in spite of multiple countries doing lockdowns and recovering better than the likes of the US and Europe who are losing a lot of people.... and if you honestly believe the economies in those countries are doing mostly okay in spite of the rampant virus, then I am not sure you have any idea of what is actually happening.

Dozens and dozens of articles from multiple sources have been shared displaying the increased hunger, dislocation of people, potential mass evictions coming, job loses, no health care etc etc etc clearly haven't made a dent in your thinking that Covid is causing a lot of pain and misery because of the deliverate mishandling of the who event from day one by the Trump administration.

But... the rich are fine, lets move and keep finding ways to make it look like a nothing thing... just call it the flu or common cold enough and people will believe it.
Just bring up numbers that make it look smaller than it is to those who don't understand numbers.... they will believe it if you say it often enough.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1108 on: December 28, 2020, 11:54:22 AM »
Covid Recession Hurting State And Local Budgets, And The Economy
https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardmcgahey/2020/12/26/covid-recession-hurting-state-and-local-budgets-and-the-economy/
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We are halfway through fiscal year 2021 for states, which for almost all of them began on July 1.  The National Association of State Budget Officers (NASBO) tells us this is the first year since the Great Recession where state general fund spending is declining, “1.1 percent compared to fiscal 2020 and…5.5 percent compared to governors’ budgets proposed before the pandemic.”

U.N. Estimates Many In Afghanistan Are Suffering From Hunger
https://www.npr.org/2020/12/28/950724150/u-n-estimates-many-in-afghanistan-are-suffering-from-hunger
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As the U.S. withdraws from Afghanistan after 20 years of involvement, it leaves behind a desperate, hungry country made worse by the pandemic

How the pandemic brought a rising tide of hunger to Europe
https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/28/world/europe-hunger-food-poverty-intl/index.html
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The charity -- which gives out food to those in need on top of providing other services including housing and legal assistance -- said it saw a 925% surge in demand during the early stages of the pandemic.

Food banks sound alarm on child hunger as Covid crisis drags on
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/food-banks-sound-alarm-child-hunger-covid-crisis-drags-n1252368
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One county in Massachusetts has experienced a projected 168 percent increase in child hunger since 2018.

Order preventing evictions expected to expire at the end of the year
https://www.wkyt.com/2020/12/27/order-preventing-evictions-expected-to-expire-at-the-end-of-the-year/
Quote
The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s order preventing evictions from happening during the pandemic is set to expire at the end of the year.
Governor Andy Beshear has made the state’s executive order on evictions to reflect the CDC’s moratorium on residential evictions through Dec. 31.

Housing Advocates Rally in SF Against Hotel Evictions
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/making-it-in-the-bay/housing-advocates-rally-in-sf-against-hotel-evictions/2432149/
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Housing advocates gathered at San Francisco’s Union Square to call for an end to hotel evictions for those without homes after the board of supervisors recently voted to end the program that offered hotel rooms to some in need during the pandemic.

Evictions taking place in SC despite moratorium still in effect
https://www.live5news.com/2020/12/27/evictions-taking-place-sc-despite-moratorium-still-effect/
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More than 21,000 eviction cases have been filed across five of the state’s most populous counties, including Charleston County, despite a federal moratorium that remains in effect.
Of those 21,000 cases filed in Charleston, Horry, Richland, Lexington and Greenville Counties, about 10% of those cases resulted in a “write of ejectment,” meaning their cases advanced far enough in court that those renters and their families could be ordered to leave by authorities, according to an examination of court records by The Sun News and The State newspapers.
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

The Walrus

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1109 on: December 28, 2020, 02:49:44 PM »
.

I think you are confusing compassion with objectivity.  Death can be tragic, but that does not mean that we should drop everything we are doing to prevent it.  Death is inevitable.  It is part of living.  We must not give up living, just to delay dying.

Trying to dismiss my posts by passionate pleas for the dying or false claims of ignorance only diminishes your own post.  The truth cares not whether you believe it or not.  I understand that you have your own beliefs and opinions, but when they contrast with the data presented by well-respected references, I am not swayed.  You seem to believe that a full and total lockdown is the only answer, even though the hard data shows otherwise. 

Claiming that you know more than others, when you make posts like you have, does not give yourself much credit.  When you appeal to ignorance, you only reveal your own.  For your own sake, I suggest that you read more than just that which supports your own beliefs.  They are the ones saying it so often, that it is all you are willing to believe.

Hunger could become a major factor, due to covid.  But it is not a direct result of the virus.  Rather, it is a result of the lockdown, as funding and supply chains have been interrupted. 

https://unglobalcompact.org/take-action/20th-anniversary-campaign/covid-related%20hunger-could-kill-more-people-than-the-virus

But you are free to support this action, if you feel that it is in the best interest of the rich, who you claim are doing fine.  Sure, who cares about the poor children in Africa, as long as the wealthy, old people in the West can enjoy their years in the sun?  (Yes, this was sarcasm, but understand the unintended consequences of these actions).
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 05:06:21 PM by kassy »

Rodius

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1110 on: December 29, 2020, 03:15:12 AM »
Walrus.... the hard data you have must be weird.

Australia did a hard lockdown. We lost a few people and it is now under control barring the unstoppable new clusters that require minimal lockdowns to contain and beat. The economy is doing a good recovery, hardly any died, and we can go to the hospital to get normal treatments as if Coivd didn't exist.

The US, by contrast, has multiple thousands of deaths per DAY (Australia has a grand total of 900ish), the case counts is high and increasing, meaning the situation is a few weeks will be at least the same if not worse.
Just upthread are a whole list of articles and information demostrating the hardships of people in terms of going hungry, lose of jobs, food banks in trouble, evictions an ongoing concern that is only prevented because of Govt intervention when they feel like. The situation is ongoing and it isn't improving.

Please explain how this comparison supports your thinking that more dead people is okay because it isn't that bad, not really, and lets face it, death happens so why worry about a few extra dead people when, lets face it, we are all going to die anyway so we may as well just look after those with money to ensure they keep it and, ironically, are first in line for vaccines to extend their life.

You are playing this situation down, and the information in this forum counters your beliefs at every turn but you keep on keeping on with thinking you are right. Show my how the US food banks are doing just fine, show me how people are perfectly safe in their current rental situation when they are only in a house because the Govt wont allow evictions for now.... show me where this information is wrong.

The Walrus

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1111 on: December 29, 2020, 05:20:02 AM »
More dead people is okay?  That is the most ridiculous statement you have made yet.  It is readily apparent that your mind is already made up, and you are unwilling to listen to anything that does not support your personal beliefs.  Also, why do you believe that the information in this forum is better than the data from the Harvard business review? 
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 04:44:49 PM by kassy »

Rodius

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1112 on: December 29, 2020, 07:52:31 AM »
You are the one saying more people dying isn't a big deal given your perception of small increases in death per year.... that isn't me, I am reflecting back what you are saying.

The articles shared within the last few days are valid. Dont believe them? Then ask around for yourself.
And the Harvard Business Review is one source..... where are they saying there are no problems with hunger, impending evictions, and underemployment? I had a quick look at a few of their recent articles concerning current events and they arent exactly jumping for joy about things either. Maybe I am missing something, feel free to share an article from them that says things are doing better letting the virus run rampant compared to short sharp lockdowns that remove the virus (for the most part).

Like I asked you before..... show me something that says the problems being highlighted here by myself and others are wrong or overhyped so we can have a discussion about that.

If the information here is so wrong, show the articles with the counter-argument so we can all read it and access it accordingly.

« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 04:46:13 PM by kassy »

The Walrus

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1113 on: December 29, 2020, 01:00:12 PM »
You are the one saying more people dying isn't a big deal given your perception of small increases in death per year.... that isn't me, I am reflecting back what you are saying.

The articles shared within the last few days are valid. Dont believe them? Then ask around for yourself.
And the Harvard Business Review is one source..... where are they saying there are no problems with hunger, impending evictions, and underemployment? I had a quick look at a few of their recent articles concerning current events and they arent exactly jumping for joy about things either. Maybe I am missing something, feel free to share an article from them that says things are doing better letting the virus run rampant compared to short sharp lockdowns that remove the virus (for the most part).

Like I asked you before..... show me something that says the problems being highlighted here by myself and others are wrong or overhyped so we can have a discussion about that.

If the information here is so wrong, show the articles with the counter-argument so we can all read it and access it accordingly.

The Harvard report was purely economical.  The link to the U.N. showed the problems for global hunger, and its potential increase due to the lockdowns.  Then there is the negative psychological effects associated with the lockdowns.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2020.577740/full

Sure, the lockdown was fine for those that were financially well off and could work remotely from one of their many homes.  But for those who had their factory shut down, restaurant closed, or any of a number of small businesses that depend upon physical customers, it was devastating.  Many people had real problems with a substantial loss of income, and could not simply wait for their stock portfolio to rebound. 

That is three valid sources of information; the Harvard Business Review, the United Nations Global Compact, and a review article in Frontiers of Psychology.  How many more do you need?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2020, 04:43:38 PM by kassy »

kassy

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1114 on: December 29, 2020, 05:04:28 PM »
Quote
You are the one saying more people dying isn't a big deal given your perception of small increases in death per year.

I don´t think that is his point.
Also this is the economic consequences thread so naturally that perspective comes up.

For some nuance:
What closed or opened varied wildly over the world and the results also varied wildly depending on how people behave. Japan never closed the cinemas. I don´t know what stayed open in for example Japan, SK.

Also you cannot close everything. People need food and other things too.

You cannot close schools for a year and it is also not possibly to isolate the elderly from harm. There are many here that get some sort of help with various things like getting dressed, household work, medicines etc. All the people doing that have many small encounters and possibly also have a family with younger kids. (a lot of people have this as a PT job).

Anyway if inclined to discuss details then focus on the economic stuff not on what a poster thinks.

PS: I chopped out a bunch of redundant block quotes.
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sidd

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1115 on: December 30, 2020, 07:32:10 AM »
From the streets: midwest and midatlantic USA

It's sinking in, now everyone i talk to knows someone who died and a few more who have had it. People masking up that didnt b4. People are digging in for the long winter, stocking up, hunkering down, nesting at home.

Just had another person i knew die, high nineties, had the extermination camp tatoos from a long time ago. Him and his wife didnt take it serious, kept going out to restaurants and the like ... she survived without hospitalization, he went in and died. Their daughter is in cancer therapy, no immune system to speak of, hadnt seen her parents for much of the year. She went to the hospital with her mother to see him the night before he died. Here's hoping she didnt catch it although she aint expected to survive the cancer for long.

Places are shutting down. Nobody on the roads unless they have to be. Regardless of official lockdown, more and more are making the calculation that stayin home is the best choice whether or not any stimulus checks ever show up.

Seeing a lot of vaccine resistance in the small towns and forgotten places. They watched the pharm companies kill a great many over the years with opioids, lying about them every step of the way. They watched the insurance companies jack their premiums and raise the prices of medications outta sight.  They aint sure that the vaccine will really be free, and they are damned sure that they will have to pay if they suffer side effects. Firemen and the first responders, first in line, are assenting but not enthusiastically.

sidd

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1116 on: December 30, 2020, 11:24:12 AM »
Democracy in America is absolete, it should be renamed BSA Banana States of America, they allready had one Orange Ape and now an even older one is taking over.
Have a ice day!

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1117 on: December 30, 2020, 02:42:34 PM »
I am taking a break from my immediate economic consequences to focus on a longer term one the pandemic is exacerbating...the national debt.

Opinion: Debt crisis in US will end badly for everyone
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/opinion/2020/12/14/opinion-debt-crisis-us-end-badly-everyone/6506684002/
Quote
"It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes." –Thomas Jefferson
"There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. One is by the sword. The other is by debt." – John Adams 1826.

Your View by Lehigh professor: Why national debt and budget deficits still matter
https://www.mcall.com/opinion/mc-opi-bipartisan-economic-policy-nation-20201204-izgufmot3vcmjomg63ywo44uwq-story.html
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From a budget perspective, significant new spending on social issues, the environment or anything else is an afterthought. The four largest parts to the federal budget are: Social Security, $1.09 trillion; Medicare/Medicaid, $1.1 trillion; defense spending, $704 billion; and interest on our current debt, $342 billion.
It is worth noting that interest rates are historically low, and a return to more normal rates would double or triple our interest payments.
Two important things to consider. First, even with deficit spending, only about a third of the federal budget is discretionary. If we account for unfunded liabilities such as Social Security and Medicare ($53 trillion) — none of the budget is really discretionary; it is all spent and then some.
Second, the national debt is now 128% of gross domestic product This means, if everything produced by the U.S. economy for an entire year was given to the federal government, it could pay off less than 80% of the existing debt. This grim statistic also suggests an important part of the solution to the debt problem — increasing the growth of the U.S. economy.

Sen. Johnson says national debt will be $29T by end of fiscal year
https://www.wsaw.com/2020/12/22/sen-johnson-say-national-debt-will-be-29t-by-end-of-fiscal-year/
Quote
“We do not have an unlimited checking account. We must spend federal dollars — money we are borrowing from future generations — more carefully and place limits on how much we are mortgaging our children’s future.”

Ken de la Bastide column: National debt spiraling out of control
https://www.heraldbulletin.com/opinion/ken-de-la-bastide-column-national-debt-spiraling-out-of-control/article_8faf9f16-45fb-11eb-9e40-e35bbd7dc9a5.html
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Will the inflation and interest rates skyrocket because the government’s printing press is running nonstop?
There has to be the concern of when the nation’s creditors call in those loans. Where will the money come from?
Senior citizens shouldn’t be concerned about paying off the debt; the bill will be handed to our children and grandchildren for generations to come.

Rep. Tom Emmer says national debt drove his opposition to $2K relief checks
https://www.startribune.com/rep-tom-emmer-says-national-debt-drove-his-opposition-to-2k-relief-checks/573498642/
Quote
U.S. Rep. Tom Emmer said Tuesday that he voted against increasing COVID relief checks to $2,000 because it would add to the national debt and because Congress didn't do enough to offset it by trimming other spending.

After the pandemic recovery, we must tackle the national debt
https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/02/perspectives/national-debt-biden-economy/index.html
Quote
Now President-elect Biden will be inheriting the second-highest debt of any American president, second to President Truman who came into office at the end of World War II, and the very worst situation if you look at where the debt is headed long term, with about $5 billion in borrowing per day.

Yes, the National Debt Is Still a Problem. Always Was.
https://www.cato.org/blog/yes-national-debt-still-problem-always-was
Quote
One person who understands this appears to be Joe Biden’s Treasury Secretary pick Janet Yellen. She is reported to have told a Bipartisan Policy Center meeting earlier this year that “The U.S. debt path is completely unsustainable under current tax and spending plans,” and that it is “something that most people don’t understand and I see very little evidence of concern about it.”

COVID-19 Pandemic Sends National Debt to Highest Level Since World War II
https://www.newsweek.com/covid-19-pandemic-sends-national-debt-highest-level-since-world-war-ii-1557077
Quote
The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimated that federal debt this year will total 102% of Gross Domestic Product (GDP)—the value of all goods and services produced in a year. But the CBO's estimate may be optimistic. Preliminary figures peg this year's federal debt at about 136% of GDP.
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kassy

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1118 on: December 30, 2020, 04:18:19 PM »
Any general US debt discussion should be held somewhere in the rest.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1119 on: December 30, 2020, 04:25:56 PM »
I am sure other countries have rising debts in this pandemic as well, but I will keep that in mind.
Thanks, kassy.
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kassy

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1120 on: December 30, 2020, 04:35:31 PM »
I bet. It is true for Europe and of course all tourist destinations miss most of that income etc.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Shared Humanity

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1121 on: December 30, 2020, 05:20:07 PM »
Democracy in America is absolete, it should be renamed BSA Banana States of America, they allready had one Orange Ape and now an even older one is taking over.

Our new president will be such a relief for Americans. With 8 years of experience in the executive branch and having already surrounded himself with a highly capable cabinet, they will get to the hard work of restoring a functional government. Having said this, Biden is facing a very difficult task. He has already stated that the pandemic will be his top priority.

Biden is the standard bearer for neoliberalism in the U.S. He will work diligently to restore the economy but we should not expect any true progressive policies to spring from this administration.

Long term, this will be a bad thing as we will continue to kick the can down the road and fail to tackle the difficult problems facing humanity.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1122 on: December 31, 2020, 06:10:20 PM »
Balancing Texas' budget is always complicated. The pandemic and recession will make it even harder in 2021.
https://www.texastribune.org/2020/12/28/texas-budget-2021/
Quote
Lawmakers could face a multibillion-dollar budget deficit due to the coronavirus pandemic and its accompanying recession. That will only compound the difficulties of balancing the budget.

As Chicagoans Continue To Face Hunger In Pandemic, New Little Village Food Pantry Aims To Help: ‘The Need Is Massive’
https://blockclubchicago.org/2020/12/31/as-chicagoans-continue-to-face-hunger-in-pandemic-new-little-village-food-pantry-aims-to-help-the-need-is-massive/
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With the help of partners and donors, New Life Centers bought the building on the corner of Lawndale Avenue and 27th Street to make way for a food pantry. It will be named El Mercado.

Allegion Gives Back to Community Hunger-Relief Efforts in Wake of Ongoing COVID-19 Pandemic
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20201231005030/en/Allegion-Gives-Back-to-Community-Hunger-Relief-Efforts-in-Wake-of-Ongoing-COVID-19-Pandemic
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DUBLIN--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Allegion plc (NYSE: ALLE), a leading global security products and solutions provider, recently made donations to hunger-relief organizations around the world amounting to more than $500,000. These one-time gifts were designated on behalf of all Allegion employees to help support the growing number of people facing food insecurity in the wake of the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic.

UK pledges an extra £47m in aid as agencies warn of ‘catastrophic hunger’
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/dec/31/uk-pledges-an-extra-47m-in-aid-as-agencies-warn-of-catastrophic-hunger
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Coronavirus, conflict and cuts to UN funding are increasing the risks of food insecurity and acute malnutrition in 2021

COVID Relief Is Coming To The Ohio Valley. But As Hunger Persists, Did It Arrive Too Late?
https://ohiovalleyresource.org/2020/12/30/covid-relief-is-coming-to-the-ohio-valley-but-as-hunger-persists-did-it-arrive-too-late/
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After months of increasing COVID-19 caseloads and deaths across the country, a second federal COVID-19 relief package was finally signed by Trump, up against a cliff of expiring unemployment benefits and other aid for millions of Americans. In months that it took for a bipartisan deal to emerge, food insecurity, unemployment, and hardship hit staggering levels in the Ohio Valley.

Millions of U.S. renters face eviction legal battles without lawyers
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/eviction-moratorium-us-renters-face-housing-court-legal-battles-without-lawyers-covid-pandemic/
Quote
As the economic effects of the coronavirus pandemic stretch into 2021, millions of U.S. renters are bracing for the possibility of having to show up in housing court to avoid getting evicted. But unlike their landlords, only a small fraction of them will do so flanked by an attorney.
Fewer than 10 cities and counties nationwide guarantee tenants the right to a lawyer in housing-related disputes, and for people struggling to make ends meet, an attorney is beyond their means, leaving many to skip their court hearings or walk in knowing they have little chance. Unlike criminal cases, an attorney won't be assigned if someone can't afford one. Legal aid organizations and pro bono lawyers represent many renters every year, but the need outpaces what they can handle.

Holiday week eviction forces family onto streets
https://www.wcpo.com/money/consumer/dont-waste-your-money/holiday-week-evictions-forcing-families-onto-streets
Quote
Whitewter Twp. family tossed out of mobile home despite pandemic

Albany Park Residents Can’t Boot Problem Tenant Because Of Evictions Moratorium; ‘Cops Come At All Hours Of The Day’
https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2020/12/30/evictions-moratorium-albany-park/
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People living in one Albany Park apartment building said they’re living in a nightmare.
And scared for their own safety.
It’s all because of one renter who can’t be kicked out because of the eviction moratorium. But CBS 2 has found that some evictions are indeed happening.

During Maryland rent moratorium, more landlords using legal ‘loophole’ as means to evict
https://www.baltimoresun.com/business/real-estate/bs-bz-maryland-tenant-holding-over-20201230-ji4gzcz7qbe2hcks5spifdi3dq-story.html
Quote
When the coronavirus pandemic hit Maryland, Null — legally known as Anna Velicky — and several of their neighbors and friends quickly lost the ability to pay rent. In-person dining, nightlife, arts and entertainment ground to a halt, drying up incomes for millions of workers who rely on week-to-week paychecks to survive.
Null said their landlord, Charles Lankford, initially tried to contact tenants via email and memoranda. But as weeks passed and tenants still hadn’t paid rent, Lankford took some of them to what is known as tenant holding over court, through which he can circumvent both state and federal moratoriums on residential evictions for failure to pay rent.

Legal experts say many Oklahomans at risk of being evicted in next 2 months
https://kfor.com/news/local/legal-experts-say-many-oklahomans-at-risk-of-being-evicted-in-next-2-months/
Quote
The website AdvisorSmith states that 11 percent of rental households in Oklahoma are at risk of eviction in the next two months.
That percentage is more than 2 percent higher than the nationwide average, according to the website.

Eviction Tsunami
https://www.smdp.com/briefs-26/164734
Quote
The Committee For Racial Justice (CRJ) will be gathering by Zoom on Sunday, Jan. 3, at 6:30 p.m., to kick off the New Year by examining a topic that is most pressing in a number of households. During this time of unprecedented economic upheaval, numerous reports claim that one third of our country’s inhabitants will face housing insecurity in the coming months. We know that the moratorium on evictions has been extended to the end of January for most LA County residents and ends March 30 for Santa Monicans, but what then?
Most people will not be in a position to pay back all the past rent or mortgage payments due. And because the corona virus has impacted the Black and Brown communities disproportionately, it is our neighbors in these communities that are at the highest risk of losing their homes, if that hasn’t happened already due to illness and job loss.
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The Walrus

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1123 on: December 31, 2020, 07:44:49 PM »
Tom,
We need to lift the lockdown soon to alleviate hunger and poverty.  All your links come to that conclusion.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1124 on: December 31, 2020, 08:22:40 PM »
Tom,
We need to lift the lockdown soon to alleviate hunger and poverty.  All your links come to that conclusion.
And allow more risk of covid death.
It is a bit damned if you do damned if you don't.
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wili

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1125 on: December 31, 2020, 09:54:09 PM »
covid and the lockdowns are responsible for 0% of hunger and poverty.

it is blindingly obvious to anyone who doesn't have their eyes rigidly shut that poverty comes from people not having money. And people not having money is because other people have nearly all the money (and power).

I'm sure all posters who express great dismay about hunger and poverty will join me in calling for an immediate redistribution of wealth, so that the richest 1% no longer owns as much as, or more than, the entire middle class (not to mention everyone else!) :)
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1126 on: December 31, 2020, 10:50:22 PM »
wili, covid is not the sole factor, but one contributing one.
Equivalent of $1,000,000 wealth maximum sounds right.
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The Walrus

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1127 on: January 01, 2021, 12:27:07 AM »
covid and the lockdowns are responsible for 0% of hunger and poverty.


I think you are half right; COVID is responsible for 0% of hunger and poverty.  The other half is wrong; the lockdowns have had a huge effect.  The lockdowns have not affected those that can work remotely (mostly the well off), and retirees.  However, those that have been idled by business shutdowns have been majorly affected.  Loss of wages, insurance, and other benefits have had profound effects.  Read some of Tom’s links.  The fear of COVID has done more damage than the virus itself.

Regarding hunger, the West has been less affected as many countries produce a significant portion of their own food.  Those living in third world countries have been devastated, as supply chains have been disrupted.  Most people are unaware of this as most attention has been given to COVID and the lockdowns.  People in these countries have been little affected by the virus directly, but have suffered significantly from the global shutdown.  Many rely on humanitarian food shipments.  If you want to blame the lockdown on the 1% (and you will get no argument from me, if you do), then the 1% are responsible for increased poverty and hunger.  However, I feel that support for the lockdown goes well beyond the 1%.

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1128 on: January 01, 2021, 03:49:48 AM »
Tom,
We need to lift the lockdown soon to alleviate hunger and poverty.  All your links come to that conclusion.
And allow more risk of covid death.
It is a bit damned if you do damned if you don't.

Walrus... in Australia we got rid of Covid, and it is essentially business as usual barring mask wearing.
Only took a few months to get Melbourne sorted by following the advice of experts in pandemics and those who know how to deal with things like this.

The Walrus

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1129 on: January 01, 2021, 02:35:53 PM »
Tom,
We need to lift the lockdown soon to alleviate hunger and poverty.  All your links come to that conclusion.
And allow more risk of covid death.
It is a bit damned if you do damned if you don't.

Walrus... in Australia we got rid of Covid, and it is essentially business as usual barring mask wearing.
Only took a few months to get Melbourne sorted by following the advice of experts in pandemics and those who know how to deal with things like this.

Yes, Australia benefited from being densely populated and easily isolated.  Consequently, the economy down under has fared much better than Europe, and similar to the U.S.

https://www.ft.com/content/ac98dd24-9edb-4618-a9af-5ab4cf892262

Sebastian Jones

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1130 on: January 01, 2021, 07:20:21 PM »
Regarding the notion that the (half hearted, much ignored and sporadically enforced) 'lockdown' causes more harm then the virus:
358,000 dead people would probably disagree.
The millions who are likely to suffer long term disabilities would probably disagree too.
Much of the world has totally blown its response to this pandemic, mostly by conflating economic and physical health.
America is in a league of its own.
Ending all Covid spread reduction measures would probably  have little effect now that so many are sick and dying.

The Walrus

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1131 on: January 01, 2021, 07:58:23 PM »
Regarding the notion that the (half hearted, much ignored and sporadically enforced) 'lockdown' causes more harm then the virus:
358,000 dead people would probably disagree.
The millions who are likely to suffer long term disabilities would probably disagree too.
Much of the world has totally blown its response to this pandemic, mostly by conflating economic and physical health.
America is in a league of its own.
Ending all Covid spread reduction measures would probably  have little effect now that so many are sick and dying.

Yet those numbers pale in comparison to the global deaths due to hunger.

"Mark Lowcock, Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator, said that in the absence of humanitarian assistance the lives of 235 million people are at stake — a 40 per cent increase, with poverty rising for the first time in 20 years while life expectancy will fall."

"Filippo Grandi, United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, pointed out that the pandemic has left 80 million refugees and internally displaced persons particularly vulnerable to health hazards and other consequences.  Most refugees are in poor countries, a fact that requires a special focus."

https://www.un.org/press/en/2020/ga12294.doc.htm

But who cares about the poor around the world, as long as we can save the wealthy old folks in the west?  Your last line is apropos, "Ending all Covid spread reduction measures would probably  have little effect now that so many are sick and dying" now that the food distribution networks have been dismantled.  - my emphasis.

vox_mundi

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1132 on: January 01, 2021, 08:15:25 PM »
... this has cropped up in history before; others have held money above life ...

The phrase "life unworthy of life" (in German: "Lebensunwertes Leben") was a Nazi designation for the segments of the populace which according to the Nazi regime had no right to live.

The term included people with serious medical problems and those considered grossly inferior according to the racial policy of Nazi Germany. This concept formed an important component of the ideology of Nazism.

In 1920 the concept of living beings not worthy of the life they embodied gained impetus with a tract published by two university professors, Karl Binding and Alfred Hoche. Permission ,for the Destruction of Life Unworthy of Life

In Binding and Hoche's terms, they were "useless eaters" whose "ballast lives" could be tossed overboard to better balance the economic ship of state.

This shifted the burden of human existence from simply being alive to requiring an explicit justification for living. For Binding and Roche, therefore, the right to live was to he earned, not assumed.

Binding and Hoche drove home the economic argument by calculating the total cost expended in caring for such people. They concluded that this cost was "a massive capital in the form of foodstuffs, clothing and heating, which is being subtracted from the national product for entirely unproductive purposes"

“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1133 on: January 02, 2021, 01:35:03 AM »
Can anyone translate the writing on the poster?
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Shared Humanity

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1134 on: January 02, 2021, 04:41:55 PM »
Can anyone translate the writing on the poster?

Rough translation below...

This hereditary disease costs the community for life

People's comrades this is also your money

Read new people

The monthly bulletins of the Federal Bureau of Research


Basically, it is very expensive to care for the chronically ill and those who have herditary diseases (diabetes etc.)

Should a society make decisions that carry high costs (lockdowns) in order to protect the weak, old and ill (diabetes, heart disease, fat, etc.) The Germans argued there was a better approach, that societal needs should be considered before the needs of the individual. This discussion in German society was occurring in the teens and some historians have argued that it laid the foundation for the holocaust.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2021, 05:27:05 PM by Shared Humanity »

etienne

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1135 on: January 02, 2021, 05:09:52 PM »
Well, I would translate it this way :

There are two parts :

Upper part:

- 60'000  Reichmark costs this sick man to the health insurance (or Obamacare) during his life. Volksgenosse means community.

- Health insurance (or Obamacare) is also your money.

Lower part :
You should read "New People", the monthly paper written by the racial political office of the NSDAP Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2021, 06:32:08 PM by etienne »

Shared Humanity

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1136 on: January 02, 2021, 07:24:42 PM »
Did some searching on the idea of "life unworthy of life". It would appear that this idea predated the Nazi era in Germany and had proponents in other countries during the 1920's.

https://law.jrank.org/pages/1095/Euthanasia-Assisted-Suicide-modern-euthanasia-movement.html

Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, was an advocate for eugenics. In a 1921 article, she wrote that, “the most urgent problem today is how to limit and discourage the over-fertility of the mentally and physically defective.” The challenge is identifying who are "mentally and physically defective" as well as who gets to make this decision.

https://time.com/4081760/margaret-sanger-history-eugenics/

Margaret's position is certainly different than advocating the euthanazation of defective persons.

Ultimately, a society does need to address the question as to what lengths they should take to protect their most vulnerable. When should a nation decide that the cost to do so outweighs the rights of the individuals who impose this cost on a nation.

This is, in fact, one of the discussions we are having on this thread.

« Last Edit: January 02, 2021, 07:37:02 PM by Shared Humanity »

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1137 on: January 02, 2021, 08:01:22 PM »
I thougt it was impossible, but I believe this image show he realised he fucked it up, big time!

Have a ice day!

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1138 on: January 02, 2021, 09:41:01 PM »
Did some searching on the idea of "life unworthy of life". It would appear that this idea predated the Nazi era in Germany and had proponents in other countries during the 1920's.

https://law.jrank.org/pages/1095/Euthanasia-Assisted-Suicide-modern-euthanasia-movement.html

Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, was an advocate for eugenics. In a 1921 article, she wrote that, “the most urgent problem today is how to limit and discourage the over-fertility of the mentally and physically defective.” The challenge is identifying who are "mentally and physically defective" as well as who gets to make this decision.

https://time.com/4081760/margaret-sanger-history-eugenics/

Margaret's position is certainly different than advocating the euthanazation of defective persons.

Ultimately, a society does need to address the question as to what lengths they should take to protect their most vulnerable. When should a nation decide that the cost to do so outweighs the rights of the individuals who impose this cost on a nation.

This is, in fact, one of the discussions we are having on this thread.

I think you paint her too positively.  She was actually much worse.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nationalreview.com/2008/06/dark-past-jonah-goldberg/amp/

https://www.courierherald.com/letters/hitler-the-ku-klux-klan-and-margaret-sanger/

Shared Humanity

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1139 on: January 03, 2021, 12:11:26 AM »
Ultimately, a society does need to address the question as to what lengths they should take to protect their most vulnerable. When should a nation decide that the cost to do so outweighs the rights of the individuals who impose this cost on a nation.

This is, in fact, one of the discussions we are having on this thread.

I think you paint her too positively.  She was actually much worse.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nationalreview.com/2008/06/dark-past-jonah-goldberg/amp/

https://www.courierherald.com/letters/hitler-the-ku-klux-klan-and-margaret-sanger/

My point was not to paint Margaret Sanger in a favorable or unfavorable light. The point of my comment was that this discussion of sacrificing individuals for the sake of society (in this case the weak, old and infirm to protect the economy) is not new. I thought to provide some historical context and make clear this is the conversation we are having on this thread.

This type of inquiry raises difficult questions. What aspects of society are so sacrosanct as to require the sacrifice of categories of individuals? Is it just the economy? And who decides when the costs of protecting citizens are excessive? Is it the Wall Street types who base it on the value of their portfolio or is it based on a more concrete sense of the economy, it's productive capacity, the ability to satisfy the needs of a nation's residents.  And if the economy deserves protection so that it is able to provide for the needs and wants of a nation's residents, how do we decide that one group's need to protect their portfolio, disregarding the impact on the vulnerable, outweighs another group's need to be protected from a deadly pandemic, disregarding the damage done to investments.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2021, 12:32:19 AM by Shared Humanity »

The Walrus

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1140 on: January 03, 2021, 01:30:39 AM »
SH, you raise some very important points.  I do not have the answers, but I feel that too many people are just looking at the number of deaths and not the other consequences.  I cannot help but wonder if the virus would have gotten as much attention if it was affecting the poor as much as the most affluent in the U.S.

https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/552561/fsoc-05-00047-HTML-r1/image_m/fsoc-05-00047-g001.jpg



etienne

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1141 on: January 03, 2021, 08:58:09 AM »
It's not so easy. Who said that letting Covid expand would be good for the economy? Not everybody thinks this statement is right. China seems to do better than the EU and the US.  The issue is unsettled. We also have a democratic issue, but I also don't know how to solve it. Many people live in a self imposed lockdown and they would be very happy if the others would stop moving around for a while, and others feel that they are already above what they can do and still go on holidays or have parties.

Rodius

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1142 on: January 03, 2021, 09:10:18 AM »
Yes, Australia benefited from being densely populated and easily isolated.  Consequently, the economy down under has fared much better than Europe, and similar to the U.S.

https://www.ft.com/content/ac98dd24-9edb-4618-a9af-5ab4cf892262

That makes no sense.......
Australia benefited because borders were closed, isolation was set up, testing and tracking was put into place, masks enforced, the economy half shut down, movement restricted, and more.

And only after the outbreak was totally under control was the economy opened up again..... which is why our economy is faring better than the likes of the US and Europe.

If the criteria for success was to be in a densely populated region that was "easily" isolated, then the other rich countries would be doing just fine right now. Oddly, they haven't done half of what we did to put a stop to Covid so they get to reap the rewards of that leadership.

You keep saying things that have no logic and you keep pandering the same stuff over and over again.

<Edited block quote. kassy>
« Last Edit: January 03, 2021, 05:30:16 PM by kassy »

The Walrus

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1143 on: January 03, 2021, 01:33:57 PM »
I think you are giving way too much credit to the Aussie response.  Other countries closed their borders, set up isolation, tracked and tested, and wore masks.  Australia is a less densely populated island nation, which is much easier to isolated than Europe.  That gave the country a huge advantage, and likely why the economy is faring between that Europe.  But your claim that it is doing better than the U.S. contradicts the link I posted from the financial times.  Do you have any basis for this statement or is it simply wishful thinking.

<Edited block quote. kassy>
« Last Edit: January 03, 2021, 05:30:26 PM by kassy »

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1144 on: January 03, 2021, 04:36:41 PM »
And what about business bankruptcies?

The 10 biggest retail bankruptcies of 2020
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/26/the-10-biggest-retail-bankruptcies-of-2020.html
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This year, Neiman Marcus and J.C. Penney joined the ranks of some of the biggest retail bankruptcies on record, including Sears, Toys R Us and Circuit City.
About 60% of the retailers that filed for bankruptcy in 2020 through August listed more than $100 million in assets, compared with 50% of filings during the same period in 2019 and 36% in 2018, a BDO analysis found.
The new year will bring more turmoil for retailers that didn’t have a strong holiday season.

The coming wave of COVID-19 bankruptcies and how to mitigate them
https://mitsloan.mit.edu/ideas-made-to-matter/coming-wave-covid-19-bankruptcies-and-how-to-mitigate-them
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Too many firms declaring bankruptcy simultaneously can overtax bankruptcy courts and sink many small businesses for good. Accommodations can help.

The World's Biggest Bankruptcies 2020
https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/economic-data/worlds-biggest-bankruptcies
Quote
The global pandemic pushed many shaky companies over the edge into bankruptcy, but some of them will emerge stronger and more profitable in the long run as a result.

US bankruptcies surpass 600 in 2020 as coronavirus-era filings keep climbing
https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-news-headlines/us-bankruptcies-surpass-600-in-2020-as-coronavirus-era-filings-keep-climbing-61734090
Quote
U.S. corporate bankruptcy filings continue to increase during the coronavirus crisis as 18 new companies joined the list of 2020 bankruptcies in the last two weeks, according to an S&P Global Market Intelligence analysis.
There have been 610 bankruptcies this year through Dec. 13, exceeding the number of filings seen in any year since 2012. The 18 new filings match the number of bankruptcies reported during the prior two-week period, continuing a slowdown from earlier in the crisis.

30 retailers, restaurant chains that filed for bankruptcy in 2020
https://abc7news.com/bankruptcy-store-closings-which-stores-declared-in-2020-covid/8742960/
Quote
There's no way to sugarcoat it: 2020 was a brutal year for restaurants and stores. The pandemic, massive amounts of debt and a shift in shopping as well as dining habits created a lethal cocktail of bankruptcies and closures.
New data from Coresight Research reveals American retailers have announced 8,400 closures this year. Ascena Retail closed the most locations, at nearly 1,200. Coresight anticipates closures will snowball and set a new record this year, breaking the 2019 record of 9,302 closures tracked by the firm.

COVID, oil glut behind many small trucking companies’ bankruptcies in 2020
https://www.freightwaves.com/news/covid-oil-glut-behind-many-small-trucking-companies-bankruptcies-in-2020
Quote
As the demand for essential goods soared amid the COVID-19 pandemic, larger trucking companies were able to pivot faster than smaller fleets that didn’t have the necessary equipment, finances or drivers.

Retail Bankruptcies in 2020: How the Fallout Will Play Out
https://commercialobserver.com/2020/12/retail-bankruptcies-2020-retailers-covid/
Quote
“The past 12 months have been a bloodbath,” said James Famularo, president of Meridian Retail Leasing. “[For brands like] Modell’s and True Religion, the writing was on the wall. But Neiman Marcus, J.Crew, Brooks Brothers — these companies are iconic. They’ve been around for generations. It’s mind-blowing.”

14 of the biggest bankruptcies of 2020—and who might be next in 2021
https://fortune.com/2020/12/21/retail-bankruptcies-2020-department-stores-retailers-energy-hospitals/
Quote
Retail, in particular, is likely in for additional pain. As November's soft consumer spending numbers show, Americans are quick to hold back in the absence of support for the millions without work, or in the presence of new restrictions. And mass vaccinations, which may alleviate the situation, are still months away.
The ratings agencies are keeping a close eye on companies they consider distressed to see how they fare in 2021. On the retail side, that means businesses such as Jo-Ann Stores, Rite-Aid, Party City, and Belk; in the restaurant sector, they include Potbelly and Noodles & Co.

Energy sector leads record wave of bankruptcies in 2020
https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/Energy-sector-leads-record-wave-of-bankruptcies-15840761.php
Quote
Through the first 11 months of the year, 1,656 companies filed for bankruptcy protection in Texas, a tally from the Texas Lawbook shows. That compares with 610 in the year-ago period. The Lawbook highlighted 76 complex Chapter 11 filings of $250 million or more by companies based in or filing in Texas. Energy companies accounted for the vast majority of those filings.
Retailers, already battered by the increase in e-commerce, were dealt another blow when the pandemic hit and brick-and-mortar shopping for a while came to a complete standstill. Ten major Texas retailers sought protection from the bankruptcy courts, and not all will reorganize.

The 30 retailers and restaurant chains that filed for bankruptcy in 2020
https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/12/business/retailers-restaurants-bankrupt-2020/index.html
Quote
New data from Coresight Research reveals American retailers have announced 8,400 closures this year. Ascena Retail closed the most locations, at nearly 1,200. Coresight anticipates closures will snowball and set a new record this year, breaking the 2019 record of 9,302 closures tracked by the firm.
Business is equally bleak for the US restaurant industry. About 17% of the country's restaurants — roughly 110,000 — have permanently closed this year, with thousands more on the brink according to a recent National Restaurant Association report.

Bankruptcies are expected to ramp up as COVID-19 continues
https://www.ocregister.com/2020/12/30/bankruptcies-are-expected-to-ramp-up-as-covid-19-continues/
Quote
COVID-19 has already wreaked havoc with the nation’s economy, but a Los Angeles attorney says a flood of pandemic-related bankruptcies will eventually be headed our way to make things even worse.
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

kassy

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1145 on: January 03, 2021, 06:35:38 PM »
Quote
The point of my comment was that this discussion of sacrificing individuals for the sake of society (in this case the weak, old and infirm to protect the economy) is not new. I thought to provide some historical context and make clear this is the conversation we are having on this thread.

This is an over focus on the deaths.

We already sacrifice individuals. If you are poor in an urban environment you are much more likely to grow up next to some big motorway with all kinds of associated health problem up to and including death. Lots of them from early on so if you factor in loss of quality of life.

Then there are also practical considerations. How do you protect all weak, old and infirm?

It can only be done up to a certain level and that depends on what your country wants to pay for health care and especially actual hands.

If you old and infirm but still live at home you get visiting caretakers. These will all visit multiple persons. They might also have families etc. Same goes for those working in the homes for the elderly.

It all started a while ago when we had reports showing the US and EU being oh so prepared for pandemics and when it started they did not stop air travel and figured only persons with a fever were a risk. And then it did not take long.

Individuals were already sacrificed then.

Another thing is the way we do lockdowns in the west. A bit here and there with lots of leeway.
It´s an emergency but it really should not inconvenience you that much. They closed the restaurants but there was still a persistent community transfer possibly related to people getting together in homes.

(The west here is NW Europe + US, Spain and Italy were much more stringent).

We do a consumerist/capitalist version of lockdown. Trying to get away with the least effort possible and that does not work.

There is probably a lesson in there somewhere...

Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1146 on: January 03, 2021, 09:51:26 PM »
Have a ice day!

kassy

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1147 on: January 03, 2021, 11:27:13 PM »
But is that about supply issues or general politics. If the latter then post it in the rest/politics.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Rodius

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1148 on: January 04, 2021, 02:54:28 AM »
I think you are giving way too much credit to the Aussie response.  Other countries closed their borders, set up isolation, tracked and tested, and wore masks.  Australia is a less densely populated island nation, which is much easier to isolated than Europe.  That gave the country a huge advantage, and likely why the economy is faring between that Europe.  But your claim that it is doing better than the U.S. contradicts the link I posted from the financial times.  Do you have any basis for this statement or is it simply wishful thinking.

<Edited block quote. kassy>

First you say our advantage was high density and how you say it is low density..... which is it?

There are links abound sowing the hardship  of people in the USA..... go read them. Australia is not in that position, we are much the same as pre covid whereas the US is getting worse by the week.

I couldn't read the FT article as I don't pay the subscription. And one article from one economically biased newspaper is hardly evidence anyway.

The Walrus

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Re: Global recession, supply issues and other COVID-19 consequences
« Reply #1149 on: January 04, 2021, 01:55:14 PM »
I think you are giving way too much credit to the Aussie response.  Other countries closed their borders, set up isolation, tracked and tested, and wore masks.  Australia is a less densely populated island nation, which is much easier to isolated than Europe.  That gave the country a huge advantage, and likely why the economy is faring between that Europe.  But your claim that it is doing better than the U.S. contradicts the link I posted from the financial times.  Do you have any basis for this statement or is it simply wishful thinking.

<Edited block quote. kassy>

First you say our advantage was high density and how you say it is low density..... which is it?

There are links abound sowing the hardship  of people in the USA..... go read them. Australia is not in that position, we are much the same as pre covid whereas the US is getting worse by the week.

I couldn't read the FT article as I don't pay the subscription. And one article from one economically biased newspaper is hardly evidence anyway.

Sorry, my origin response was in error.  I meant to say low density, which was an obvious mistake.  I think you will agree that Australia has a low population density compared to Europe. 

Regarding the recession and recovery, all areas experienced a severe decline in the second quarter.  The U.S. and Australia had seen similar quarters (the FT articles shows exact numbers for both the recession and recovery), while Europe has lagged significantly in its recovery.  Why do you believe that the economic numbers are biased?  I am open to links to other sources.

I read all the links, the problem is the lockdown and the hardships that it has enacted on the people.  This seems rather consistent in the first world countries around the globe, but a bigger hardship on the poorer nations.  Still, the U.S. and Australia appear to be on similar tracks and far ahead of Europe in the rebound.  Whether this continues this year, I cannot say.