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Tom_Mazanec

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Masks
« on: March 25, 2020, 12:41:01 PM »
Rodius, this thread is for discussing masks preventing covid infection.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2020, 08:57:01 PM by Tom_Mazanec »
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Archimid

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Re: Masks
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2020, 04:18:29 PM »
Just in case people come here for information:
, not government propaganda.

I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

gandul

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Re: Masks
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2020, 04:33:45 PM »
Pretty desert thread where this is buried.
Wow, I find this issue so important but for others it's bullcrap.
Thanks for the video. Archmid.
Everybody wear masks, please, especially in the food stores / markets.

Archimid

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Re: Masks
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2020, 06:29:06 PM »
The power of propaganda and the power of authority. People are willing to face a respiratory disease without masks because of the government,  suddenly and without any scientific backing whatsoever decided to make people believe that masks would harm them. I'm glad you have decided to wear them. Anyone that absolutely needs to go out should wear a mask. I sure as heck am.


I agree with neven. The argument is fucking stupid. I shouldn't be wasting my time debunking such blatant misinformation. But someone has to do it. Most people will just trust the authorities instead of science. They have been trained to do so all their lives. It's not really their fault.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

etienne

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Re: Masks
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2020, 06:50:14 PM »
Here is the way mask production is recommended in Germany. I would add some layers of vacuum cleaner bag in the middle and it could be ok.
https://media.essen.de/media/wwwessende/aemter/0115_1/pressereferat/Mund-Nasen-Schutz__Naehanleitung_2020_Feuerwehr_Essen.pdf
 

blumenkraft

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Re: Masks
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2020, 06:56:38 PM »
Thanks for the link, Etienne.

It clearly states masks are not a measure of self-protection.

Quote
Der BMNS soll die Verbreitung von Tropfchen durch den Trager reduzieren (Patentschutz/Umkehrisolierung). Er stellt somit keinen Eigenschutz dar und ist in seiner Wirksamkeit abhangig von der Dichte des verwendeten Stoffs.

etienne

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Re: Masks
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2020, 07:00:21 PM »
I agree, this is why I talked about adding some vacuum cleaner bags in the middle, just that I don't know how good they support being washed.

The concept is easy to build, if you do it yourself, maybe you can adapt it to your face. I didn't try it yet, but I guess I will try during the weekend.

I just wonder if I should turn the vacuum cleaner bag inside out or not.

gandul

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Re: Masks
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2020, 07:03:44 PM »
Thanks for the link, Etienne.

It clearly states masks are not a measure of self-protection.

Quote
Der BMNS soll die Verbreitung von Tropfchen durch den Trager reduzieren (Patentschutz/Umkehrisolierung). Er stellt somit keinen Eigenschutz dar und ist in seiner Wirksamkeit abhangig von der Dichte des verwendeten Stoffs.

Yeah, great, but what document is this or what authority? Sorry I don’t speak German.

(note that the most important task of a mask in this droplet-transmitted disease is not to protect you as much as to protect others in case you’re sick and you don’t know.)

blumenkraft

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Re: Masks
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2020, 07:09:10 PM »
It's from the local fire department (City of Essen).

BTW, it agrees with me on the points i made earlier in the other thread.

It looks to me as if they asked experts.

gandul

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Re: Masks
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2020, 07:30:40 PM »
It's from the local fire department (City of Essen).

BTW, it agrees with me on the points i made earlier in the other thread.

It looks to me as if they asked experts.

I agree I won’t have self-protection with a simple mask, but I will know l won’t be spreading the COVID if I got it, I still don’t know it, and then I sneeze/cough in the grocery store; I will be doing a great service to the community and saving lives.
I wear a bandana and gloves too, but will be upgrading to DIY mask very soon.

It is a fact a simple surgical mask stops the spreading of small droplets when coughing or sneezing. That’s why surgeons use it.

Anything flawed in my logic up to this point?

To stop this we have to think on the community, not in ourselves.

blumenkraft

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Re: Masks
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2020, 07:35:17 PM »
Anything flawed in my logic up to this point?

Nope.

You need to be self-disciplined enough to not touch your face while wearing it and to wash your hands efficiently before taking it off. Then you are in the clear.

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Masks
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2020, 08:26:14 PM »
... and after you take the mask off.
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

blumenkraft

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Re: Masks
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2020, 08:29:58 PM »
Correct, Tor! Thanks for the addition.

etienne

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Re: Masks
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2020, 08:57:56 PM »
It is produced with 100% cotton so that you can cook it  in boiling water after use. Thes also say that if you put some felt between the layers, it improves efficiency.

gandul

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Re: Masks
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2020, 11:30:15 PM »
Anything flawed in my logic up to this point?

Nope.

You need to be self-disciplined enough to not touch your face while wearing it and to wash your hands efficiently before taking it off. Then you are in the clear.

Thanks for the advice. Ja, I'll pull all the self-discipline that my Mediterranean-self allows! ! We are being told by Germany, Austria, Finland and the Netherlands to be disciplined fiscally in the middle of this catastrophe (Titanic's First Class is demanding the Third Class lazies to step out of the safe boats), I'll add the mask procedure to the list!!

Archimid

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Re: Masks
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2020, 11:39:08 PM »

I agree I won’t have self-protection with a simple mask,

You will have a level of protection, but very low. If there is nothing else available it is better than nothing. From the low level of protection than a simple mask can offer you can increase the protection by adding layers of material to the mask and adding safe practices. The more safe practices you add and the better the materials and mask design the better the protection.


It is completely false that simple masks offer no protection even against true airborne bugs. When talking about faux airborne like covid (microdroplets are not true airborne) the protection simple masks offer increase substantially.


Any way you cut it, universal mask use will be necessary to get away from this mess. It does not matter how afraid the people are of using them. It doesn't matter the limited protection they offer. We are going to need to close the entry and exit points of the virus.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Masks
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2020, 11:59:35 PM »
Saw my first mask today. But she got it last month. I just could keep distance.
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gandul

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Re: Masks
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2020, 12:53:48 AM »

I agree I won’t have self-protection with a simple mask,

You will have a level of protection, but very low. If there is nothing else available it is better than nothing. From the low level of protection than a simple mask can offer you can increase the protection by adding layers of material to the mask and adding safe practices. The more safe practices you add and the better the materials and mask design the better the protection.


It is completely false that simple masks offer no protection even against true airborne bugs. When talking about faux airborne like covid (microdroplets are not true airborne) the protection simple masks offer increase substantially.


Any way you cut it, universal mask use will be necessary to get away from this mess. It does not matter how afraid the people are of using them. It doesn't matter the limited protection they offer. We are going to need to close the entry and exit points of the virus.
Yeah, eventually citizens will be asked to wear mask as soon as governments can provide as many (probably from China which will end up making huge benefits of this crisis), they will give all kinds of science about it (the right science I believe) and will make you feel very bad if you don't wear it, even fine them (as they do in S. Korea) and maybe enforce strongly (China). As soon as MSM are given the OK, we'll see it on TV "wear the fucking mask!", any country, does not matter.

The WHO is ultimately responsible of this irresponsible situation, of course, but WHO just is a servant of other powers.

gandul

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Re: Masks
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2020, 06:14:44 PM »
Anything flawed in my logic up to this point?

Nope.

You need to be self-disciplined enough to not touch your face while wearing it and to wash your hands efficiently before taking it off. Then you are in the clear.

Bam. Changes on the way. Your experts will be advising soon what they should have long ago. Me thinks China back on production, exporting masks like crazy


blumenkraft

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Re: Masks
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2020, 06:26:48 PM »
Isn't the CDC doing what Trump wants them to do?

Ein Schelm, der böses dabei denkt. (Evil to him who evil thinks.)

Just kidding. No one will kill anyone.

gandul

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Re: Masks
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2020, 06:33:48 PM »
Isn't the CDC doing what Trump wants them to do?

Ein Schelm, der böses dabei denkt. (Evil to him who evil thinks.)

Just kidding. No one will kill anyone.

Of course. Trump wants to resume activity ASAP. So this measure is needed to avoid people spread it (not saying what Trump wants is good)

gandul

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Re: Masks
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2020, 06:39:44 PM »
Isn't the CDC doing what Trump wants them to do?

Ein Schelm, der böses dabei denkt. (Evil to him who evil thinks.)

Just kidding. No one will kill anyone.

And BTW, I am not sure the measure will be successful if you put everyone back at work without a minimum of disease containment prior to it. In that situation, it won't work with many people infected, mask or not. It will help though to slow it down

sigma_squared

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Re: Masks
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2020, 10:20:45 AM »
Washington Post, March 28 2020
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/03/28/masks-all-coronavirus/

Quote
Simple DIY masks could help flatten the curve. We should all wear them in public.

By  Jeremy Howard

Jeremy Howard is a distinguished research scientist at the University of San Francisco, founding researcher at fast.ai and a member of the World Economic Forum's Global AI Council.

When historians tally up the many missteps policymakers have made in response to the coronavirus pandemic, the senseless and unscientific push for the general public to avoid wearing masks should be near the top.

The evidence not only fails to support the push, it also contradicts it. It can take a while for official recommendations to catch up with scientific thinking. In this case, such delays might be deadly and economically disastrous. It’s time to make masks a key part of our fight to contain, then defeat, this pandemic. Masks effective at “flattening the curve” can be made at home with nothing more than a T-shirt and a pair of scissors. We should all wear masks — store-bought or homemade — whenever we’re out in public.
...
My data-focused research institute, fast.ai, has found 34 scientific papers indicating basic masks can be effective in reducing virus transmission in public — and not a single paper that shows clear evidence that they cannot.
...
The reasons the WHO cites for its anti-mask advice are based not on science but on three spurious policy arguments. First, there are not enough masks for hospital workers. Second, masks may themselves become contaminated and pass on an infection to the people wearing them. Third, masks could encourage people to engage in more risky behavior.

None of these is a good reason to avoid wearing a mask in public.


blumenkraft

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Re: Masks
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2020, 11:14:10 AM »
Sigma_squared, may i ask if this is representing your personal opinion also?

What do you say to the 'masks increase your risk due to unintentional face touching' argument?

GrauerMausling

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Re: Masks
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2020, 11:58:47 AM »
Sigma_squared, may i ask if this is representing your personal opinion also?

What do you say to the 'masks increase your risk due to unintentional face touching' argument?

That this argument is, by personal experience, total BS. I'm wearing a mask when I do my shopping for some time now, and it is clear that I touch my face FAR LESS when I wear the mask than without the mask. There are two items:
1. you can't touch the critical parts like mouth and nose as they are covered
2. you are far more aware that it is not a good idea to touch your face at all

As I'm also wearing glasses also the eyes are far more difficult to reach - the mask ends up right below the glasses so it covers the gap.

I noticed that I didn't touch my nose even when it was itching - this would not happened without the mask on.

So yes, I'm wearing the mask to protect others, but it will also protect me from touching my face while I can't always avoid touching critical surfaces, e.g. while shopping.

Your are completely wrong here - as with so many other things regarding corona!

 

blumenkraft

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Re: Masks
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2020, 12:04:42 PM »
I was about to believe you GM, but then i read your last sentence, and now i think you might only say that to oppose me.

Also, you are not Sigma_squared.

sigma_squared

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Re: Masks
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2020, 12:29:04 PM »
Sigma_squared, may i ask if this is representing your personal opinion also?

What do you say to the 'masks increase your risk due to unintentional face touching' argument?

If I could find a mask, I'd wear one in the grocery store. I'm taking my high-risk father to a doctor's appointment in a week, and if I could find a mask, I'd recommend he wear it. I haven't got to the level of making my own yet, but I might.

I don't believe it's a cure-all, but if it helps, why not? Kind of like wearing a seat belt. I've been in two car accidents that totalled my car, but I was fine because of the seat belt. If this pandemic continues for six to eighteen months and I avoid or delay a few exposures (either me getting it or passing it on), it would be worth the cost and the embarrassment of wearing a mask, again, provided I could find one.

Here's what the article says about the face touching argument (not directly, but I think it's implied):

Quote
It’s true that masks can become contaminated. But better a mask gets contaminated than the person who is wearing it. It is not hard to wash or dispose of a mask at the end of the day and then wash hands thoroughly to prevent a contaminated mask from spreading infection.

Finally, the idea that masks encourage risky behavior is nonsensical. We give cars anti-lock brakes and seat belts despite the possibility that people might drive more riskily knowing the safety equipment is there. Construction workers wear hard hats even though the hats presumably could encourage less attention to safety. If any risky behavior does occur, societies have the power to make laws against it.

Also, thanks for the greeting in the other thread. I've been following the ASI blog since at least 2012 and the forum for about a year.

blumenkraft

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Re: Masks
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2020, 12:44:57 PM »
OK, thanks a lot for your answer, Sigma_squared.

gandul

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Re: Masks
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2020, 03:20:26 PM »
Washington Post, March 28 2020
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/03/28/masks-all-coronavirus/

Quote
Simple DIY masks could help flatten the curve. We should all wear them in public.

By  Jeremy Howard

Jeremy Howard is a distinguished research scientist at the University of San Francisco, founding researcher at fast.ai and a member of the World Economic Forum's Global AI Council.

When historians tally up the many missteps policymakers have made in response to the coronavirus pandemic, the senseless and unscientific push for the general public to avoid wearing masks should be near the top.

The evidence not only fails to support the push, it also contradicts it. It can take a while for official recommendations to catch up with scientific thinking. In this case, such delays might be deadly and economically disastrous. It’s time to make masks a key part of our fight to contain, then defeat, this pandemic. Masks effective at “flattening the curve” can be made at home with nothing more than a T-shirt and a pair of scissors. We should all wear masks — store-bought or homemade — whenever we’re out in public.
...
My data-focused research institute, fast.ai, has found 34 scientific papers indicating basic masks can be effective in reducing virus transmission in public — and not a single paper that shows clear evidence that they cannot.
...
The reasons the WHO cites for its anti-mask advice are based not on science but on three spurious policy arguments. First, there are not enough masks for hospital workers. Second, masks may themselves become contaminated and pass on an infection to the people wearing them. Third, masks could encourage people to engage in more risky behavior.

None of these is a good reason to avoid wearing a mask in public.


No less than the WaPo jumps into the wagon "masks are not so bad in fact...", soon the MSM will sing unison.

Thanks for the info

gandul

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Re: Masks
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2020, 07:56:55 PM »
Seems the experts are suddenly experiencing a flash conversion.
Now the NY posts experts join those of the rival WaPo

https://bit.ly/2UuJyvj

blumenkraft

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Re: Masks
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2020, 08:28:33 PM »
Now the NY posts experts join those of the rival WaPo

Or is it the MSM is following the great dictator?

Sebastian Jones

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Re: Masks
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2020, 02:48:42 AM »
It's changing all over.

TerryM

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Re: Masks
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2020, 03:56:53 AM »
It's changing all over.
Sebastian
Have you secured a few reusable masks for yourself and your family?
Just the sight of one being worn will keep others at bay.


I fear this will get much worse before it gets any better.
I've noticed that the Canadian Government has been buying plenty of commercials on TV - The advice they offered is good.
Terry

Ken Feldman

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Re: Masks
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2020, 11:21:37 PM »
There's growing evidence that Covid-19 can be transmitted by aerosols, not just droplets, so face masks would make a difference.

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-03-29/coronavirus-choir-outbreak

Quote
A choir decided to go ahead with rehearsal. Now dozens of members have COVID-19 and two are dead


By Richard ReadSeattle Bureau Chief
March 29, 2020
7:34 PM
MOUNT VERNON, Wash. —

With the coronavirus quickly spreading in Washington state in early March, leaders of the Skagit Valley Chorale debated whether to go ahead with weekly rehearsal.

The virus was already killing people in the Seattle area, about an hour’s drive to the south.

But Skagit County hadn’t reported any cases, schools and businesses remained open, and prohibitions on large gatherings had yet to be announced.

On March 6, Adam Burdick, the choir’s conductor, informed the 121 members in an email that amid the “stress and strain of concerns about the virus,” practice would proceed as scheduled at Mount Vernon Presbyterian Church.

Quote
Sixty singers showed up. A greeter offered hand sanitizer at the door, and members refrained from the usual hugs and handshakes.

“It seemed like a normal rehearsal, except that choirs are huggy places,” Burdick recalled. “We were making music and trying to keep a certain distance between each other.”

After 2½ hours, the singers parted ways at 9 p.m.

Nearly three weeks later, 45 have been diagnosed with COVID-19 or ill with the symptoms, at least three have been hospitalized, and two are dead.

The outbreak has stunned county health officials, who have concluded that the virus was almost certainly transmitted through the air from one or more people without symptoms.

Quote
Experts said the choir outbreak is consistent with a growing body of evidence that the virus can be transmitted through aerosols — particles smaller than 5 micrometers that can float in the air for minutes or longer.

Quote
But a study published March 17 in the New England Journal of Medicine found that when the virus was suspended in a mist under laboratory conditions it remained “viable and infectious” for three hours — though researchers have said that time period would probably be no more than a half-hour in real-world conditions.

One of the authors of that study, Jamie Lloyd-Smith, a UCLA infectious disease researcher, said it’s possible that the forceful breathing action of singing dispersed viral particles in the church room that were widely inhaled.

Ken Feldman

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Re: Masks
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2020, 12:29:58 AM »
While current mask makers are ramping up production and other companies that previously made footwear or cars are starting to produce masks:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/30/3m-scrambles-to-meet-coronavirus-demand-for-face-masks.html

Quote
3M doubled global production to 1.1 billion per year from about 400 million per year, and the company said in late March it plans to double production again to 2 billion within 12 months.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/honeywell-further-expands-n95-face-213900946.html

Quote
New operations at existing Honeywell Aerospace site will enable Honeywell to produce a total of more than 20 million masks per month to fight COVID-19 in the U.S.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/gdc-technics-announces-commencement-of-face-mask-production-as-part-of-gdc-cares-initiative-301031791.html

Quote
FORT WORTH, Texas, March 30, 2020 /PRNewswire/ -- GDC Technics, a global aerospace company and industry leader in multiple aircraft services, announces it will begin voluntary production of N95 compliant face masks to be donated to local Fort Worth hospitals to combat the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic as part of its GDC Cares initiative.

https://www.eagletribune.com/news/merrimack_valley/new-balance-switches-to-face-mask-production/article_0c4ef8d7-2e9f-5094-9f8c-ab98195bbdfb.html

Quote
LAWRENCE — Face masks for health care workers will now be produced at the city's New Balance factory as the footwear maker shifts to making protective equipment to help fight the coronavirus pandemic.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/03/28/business/corporate-business/toyota-shifts-idled-u-s-factories-toward-face-shields-masks/#.XoJxx0plA2w

Quote
Toyota Motor Corp.’s idled manufacturing facilities in the U.S. will make much-needed face shields and masks, and the auto giant is also closing in on deals with makers of medical devices to help them boost production.

The carmaker said Friday it will start mass production of face shields early in the coming week to supply hospitals near its plants in Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan and Texas. Toyota also said it is finalizing pacts with at least two companies to make breathing ventilators and respirator hoods, and looking for partners to make protective masks. The company on Thursday extended its shutdown of North American factories for two weeks.

https://www.wnem.com/news/gm-to-start-production-on-ventilators-surgical-masks-next-week/article_a3a53b38-7050-11ea-8949-1f87c0b82da4.html

Quote
GM said it will also begin making FDA-cleared Level 1 surgical masks at it’s Warren manufacturing facility. The automaker said production will begin next week and within two weeks ramp up to 50,000 masks per day, with the potential to increase to 100,000 per day. GM said the daily mask production will be influenced by the availability of materials needed to build the masks.

Necessary machinery was delivered to Warren on March 27, with production slated to start next week. This employee-led initiative was created, planned and approved in about 48 hours, GM said.


Ken Feldman

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Re: Masks
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2020, 12:35:32 AM »
And masks can be made with 3-D printers.

https://www.geekwire.com/2020/maker-mask-launches-seattle-using-3d-printing-technology-produce-protective-gear/

Quote
A technology veteran and a 3D-printing “savant” have teamed with other members of industry, health care and government to launch Maker Mask, a Seattle nonprofit creating medically endorsed, reusable protective masks using everyday 3D printers.

Quote
With 28 3D printers running and 15 more on the way in the coming days, Maker Mask is operating 24 hours a day, with the potential to print nearly 1,000 masks per week by Friday. They hope hundreds of small-batch production sites will be operating across the U.S. as the design is available to the public and government free of charge through an open source model.

blumenkraft

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Re: Masks
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2020, 10:53:44 AM »
Relevant:


gandul

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Re: Masks
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2020, 03:37:55 PM »
Data

blumenkraft

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Re: Masks
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2020, 03:58:29 PM »
No, Gandul, interpretation of data. Biased interpretation.

This is not scientific. Not proof at all. Not even a theory.

Wear a mask if you think it's the right thing to do. Heck, promote the usage for god's sake.

But this is just manipulative.

gandul

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Re: Masks
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2020, 06:02:52 PM »
I mean, the graph speaks by itself. That's why I simply wrote Data, but we can rename it if you want "Data + two annotations"

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Re: Masks
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2020, 07:53:36 PM »
While masks help slow the spread sounds right to me that is not evidence. I am not sure one way or the other.


Looking at that graph suggest there is a problem with that theory. China required masks and they are in your no mask area.


Early and aggressive testing and contact tracing are a better explanation.

Archimid

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Re: Masks
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2020, 08:05:27 PM »
Covid-19 spread by microdroplets 

This video shows Lab experiments and simulation of microdroplets.

I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

gandul

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Re: Masks
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2020, 08:14:27 PM »
While masks help slow the spread sounds right to me that is not evidence. I am not sure one way or the other.


Looking at that graph suggest there is a problem with that theory. China required masks and they are in your no mask area.


Early and aggressive testing and contact tracing are a better explanation.

That's because China was first and things got out of control in Wuhan very fast, and thus China followed the 'damned' curve. But now it is very controlled spread, people wear masks.

The beauty of places like Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, is that they had never let the infection boom, to start with. Guess how. Halting for a short while, testing and tracing, quarantine locally, and implementing very aggressive measures of personal attire and behavior to restart activity.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2020, 08:22:28 PM by gandul »

blumenkraft

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Re: Masks
« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2020, 08:23:10 PM »
That's because China was first and got out of control in Wuhan.very fast

How could that happen in your opinion, Gandul? I mean, they were almost all wearing masks even before there was a virus. Following your premise, this huge outbreak couldn't even happen, right? Do you see there is a massive discrepancy with the premise?

gandul

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Re: Masks
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2020, 08:41:06 PM »
That's because China was first and got out of control in Wuhan.very fast

How could that happen in your opinion, Gandul? I mean, they were almost all wearing masks even before there was a virus. Following your premise, this huge outbreak couldn't even happen, right? Do you see there is a massive discrepancy with the premise?
I mean, I was in China a.couple of years ago, Shanghai and Beijing, and only few wore masks. The crisis in Wuhan exploded without previous warning (it was silenced, apparently). Almost nobody wore them.

What I mean is using masks as a reaction to the epidemics, as part of getting prepared to continue with ones' life.

I do not want an endless discussion, Blumenkraft. I am just posing my opinions based on other countries experience, peacefully.

sigma_squared

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Re: Masks
« Reply #45 on: March 31, 2020, 08:42:43 PM »
Looks like we hit the trifecta today:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-reviews-guidance-on-masks-to-fight-coronavirus-as-europe-embraces-their-use-11585676543
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U.S. Reviews Guidance on Masks to Fight Coronavirus as Europe Embraces Their Use
New evidence of asymptomatic transmission supports Asian practice: To make infected people wear masks, make everybody wear one

U.S. public-health authorities are reviewing recommendations for wearing face masks and a wave of European governments have ordered citizens to use them outside the home, signaling a shift among Western governments on a contentious issue in the coronavirus pandemic.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/cdc-considering-recommending-general-public-wear-face-coverings-in-public/2020/03/30/6a3e495c-7280-11ea-87da-77a8136c1a6d_story.html
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CDC considering recommending general public wear face coverings in public
Should we all be wearing masks? That simple question is under review by officials in the U.S. government and has sparked a grass-roots pro-mask movement. But there’s still no consensus on whether widespread use of facial coverings would make a significant difference, and some infectious disease experts worry that masks could lull people into a false sense of security and make them less disciplined about social distancing.

In recent days, more people have taken to covering their faces, although it remains a scattershot strategy driven by personal choice. The government does not recommend it.

That may change. Officials at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention are considering altering the official guidance to encourage people to take measures to cover their faces amid the coronavirus pandemic, according to a federal official who spoke on the condition of anonymity because it is an ongoing matter of internal discussion and nothing has been finalized.


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/31/opinion/coronavirus-n95-mask.html
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It’s Time to Make Your Own Face Mask
Here’s how to do it.

It shouldn’t have come to this, but here we are. The world is running out of face masks for health care workers, which is one reason American officials, including the surgeon general, have warned members of the public against buying their own masks for protection against the coronavirus.

But that doesn’t mean face masks for the public are a bad idea, if we had enough masks. Contrary to what American officials told us, many studies show that widespread mask-wearing might be a very effective complement to hand-washing, social-distancing and other measures to mitigate the pandemic. Health officials in China, Hong Kong, Singapore and Japan suggest that people wear masks in certain situations — if they’re symptomatic, for instance, or if they’re in crowded, not-very-well-ventilated places, like airplanes. Studies have also shown that mask-wearing (in conjunction with hand-washing) reduces the spread of infection within households or other shared living spaces, like residence halls.

But how to get your hands on a mask, when there are no masks? The internet has a plan: Make your own.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2020, 09:06:52 PM by sigma_squared »

blumenkraft

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Re: Masks
« Reply #46 on: March 31, 2020, 09:09:12 PM »
Almost nobody wore them.

Again, in Chinas megacities (i.e. Wuhan), due to air pollution, almost everyone was wearing masks by default even before the virus was a thing. It is a common thing there. It is common all over in Asia.

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I do not want an endless discussion

Me neither, but you keep making this point. So if you have a point, you should be able to argue for it. Don't chicken out now when someone has a counterargument. :P

Again, if masks were able to contain this virus, it should have happened in Wuhan. It didn't though. And this begs the question: Why?

wehappyfew

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Re: Masks
« Reply #47 on: March 31, 2020, 09:29:33 PM »
Blu,

Wuhanites who wore masks pre-covid to reduce pollution wore then outside, where the pollution is. And not every location in Hubei was polluted every day, so there must have been plenty of times when public mask wearing was limited to those who felt ill.

Inside, around family, friends , neighbors, coworkers, etc, they did not wear masks unless feeling ill.

No one wore masks while eating in public.


After covid, everyone wears masks outside, same as before , but even more so, even if pollution is low. No one eats in public anymore, and no one works at the remaining essential jobs without a mask, gloves and plentiful hand sanitizer.

Does that answer your question?

blumenkraft

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Re: Masks
« Reply #48 on: March 31, 2020, 09:43:03 PM »
Kind of, Happy. Thank you.

You are confirming mask-wearing due to air pollution is kinda common there, but not to the extend i thought.

I think this weakens my argument, but it does not diminish it.

Out of curiosity, have you been to China?

Ken Feldman

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Re: Masks
« Reply #49 on: March 31, 2020, 10:05:14 PM »
Relevant:



While a somewhat interesting video, it's statement that you can't 3D print N95 masks is wrong.  The narrator claims that the masks wont fit.  While individual fit must be evaluated, at least 30% of people can use 3D N95 masks currently being printed.  This has been shown in the trials at Children's Hospital that I linked to above and in the following trial at George Washington University Hospital.

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Rapid Prototyping of Reusable 3D-Printed N95 Equivalent Respirators at the George
Washington University
Destie Provenzano MS* 1, Yuan James Rao MD* 2, Konstantin Mitic1, Sofian N. Obaid1, Dominique Pierce4, James Huckenpahler5, Jeffrey Berger MD3, Sharad Goyal MD2, Murray H. Loew PhD1
March 28, 2020

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Abstract:
The 2019 Novel Coronavirus (COVID-19) has caused an acute reduction in world supplies of personal protective equipment (PPE) due to increased demand. To combat the impending shortage of equipment including N95 masks, the George Washington University Hospital (GWUH) developed a 3D printed reusable N95 comparable respirator that can be used with multiple filtration units. We evaluated several candidate prototype respirator models, 3D printer
filaments, and filtration units detailed here. Our most recent working model was based on a respirator found on an open source maker website and was developed with PLA (printer filament), a removable cap, a removable filtration unit consisting of two layers of MERV 16 sandwiched between MERV 13, and removable elastic bands to secure the mask. Our candidate mask passed our own suction test protocol to evaluate leakage and passed a qualitative Bitrix N95 fit test at employee health at GWUH. Further efforts are directed at improving the current model for seal against face, comfort, and sizing. The 3D model is available upon request and in the supplement of this paper. We welcome collaboration with other institutions and suggest other facilities consider mask fit for their own population when exploring this concept.

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4.0 Discussion:
This study produced a 3D printed reusable respirator that was able to pass hospital Bitrix fit test for the N95 mask. The advantages of this method are the respirators are easy to produce, easy to clean, can be individually fit to an individual, and can be cleaned with UV, light heat, alcohol, or soap and water between each use. The filtration packets made of MERV 16 and MERV 13 material can be sterilized of COVID-19 and reused. As the filtration materials are used in furnaces, they can sterilized through heat or UV light without additional damage. Three masks can be produced roughly every three hours on the larger printers, as such scaling to production of 70 - 100 masks a day on local printers at the George Washington University Hospital is feasible. These masks would provide a viable alternative should supplies run out as 1,000+ filter cartridges can be produced from a single MERV 16 air filter. Each mask costs between $2 - 4 USD depending on source materials and can be reused multiple times assuming adequate cleaning. The disadvantages of this method are the masks, similar to the N95 mask, have to be individually fit. Users that could not pass the suction test reported difficult fitting the mask around the nose and cheeks. Mask can be heated to mold to a users’ face, so if protocols are not put in place to safely do this, individuals could burn themselves or have other adverse effects. This device could also function as a surgical mask, however for N95 feasibility fit needs to be ensured to users face through suction test and fit test before use. Extra thought into fit of the mask to an end user’s population should be considered before this prototype is placed into mass production. The filtration qualities of the MERV material as stated by the manufacturer have not been independently validated at this time and this in particular requires additional investigation. Further research will evaluate if a 3D printed mask could provide an airtight fit to the majority of users through modification of design. Future efforts will focus on printing masks in three different suggested sizes. Additional research into use of rubber around the edges or other sealant could produce a better fit for all faces from generalized masks. Using a medical safe coating is also recommended to account for differences in mask creation such as the porous mask we developed on the Stratasys printer.