Masks

[wehappyfew]

I have not been to China, but I have been to Japan and Korea.

Air pollution in those two countries might be somewhat less than in Hubei, but it was quite noticeable when the wind blew from the West. Pollution in Beijing and the industrial provinces nearby were responsible.

I am basing my logic on media and video reports from Wuhan, not direct experience.

Off-topic anecdote:
I lived in coastal Oregon for a few years. It was the cleanest air I had ever experienced, being from the east coast. I moved away for a few decades, China became a coal burning industrial powerhouse, and then I returned to Washington and Oregon for a vacation. The air is no longer the cleanest in the lower 48, it smells exactly like the pollution wafting across the Yellow Sea to Korea from coal burning in China. I was a bit miffed.

[gandul]

Almost nobody wore them.

Again, in Chinas megacities (i.e. Wuhan), due to air pollution, almost everyone was wearing masks by default even before the virus was a thing. It is a common thing there. It is common all over in Asia.

I do not want an endless discussion

Me neither, but you keep making this point. So if you have a point, you should be able to argue for it. Don't chicken out now when someone has a counterargument.

Again, if masks were able to contain this virus, it should have happened in Wuhan. It didn't though. And this begs the question: Why?

Thankfully, wehappyfew answered to you.

I told you I was In Shanghai and Beijing two years ago, and I saw few masks (not zero but few).

I don't lie Blumenkraft, you can believe me (except if I am joking, that I'll let know)

[blumenkraft]

Not calling you a liar, Gandul. Sorry if i made that impression.

I've not been to China (Bejing), but i met a bunch professionally over some years' time. And a recurring topic that was brought up was that they were happy about the clean air here and how they don't need to wear a mask.

[Tom_Mazanec]

Kind of, Happy. Thank you.

You are confirming mask-wearing due to air pollution is kinda common there, but not to the extend i thought.

I think this weakens my argument, but it does not diminish it.

Out of curiosity, have you been to China?

Blu, how can you “weaken” an argument without “diminishing” it?

[blumenkraft]

Well, an argument can be valid, or valid depending on the situation, or invalid.

A complex question rarely gives you absolute arguments. The mask question is a complex topic.

[GrauerMausling]

Again, if masks were able to contain this virus, it should have happened in Wuhan. It didn't though. And this begs the question: Why?

I honestly think that you are making things up.

In the whole discussion, I have not seen a single person claiming that masks are the one and only solution to the problem.

BUT for me it is an important part to get that bloody R-factor below 1! Masks, aside with a lot of other measures, will make it more difficult for the virus to spread. And this is what it is all about.

I haven't seen a single argument against masks which, in my opinion, is valid.

Examples:

- The argument that you touch your face more often with a mask compared to without a mask is certainly not true for me and also for others. In a German TV show the moderator also stated that he he touched his face less (!) often when wearing a mask.
- Currently it seems that it is kind of undisputed that infected people spread fewer droplets when wearing a mask. And droplets seem to be the main path for spreading the virus. The reason for making all people wearing a mask is that we don't know, and will not know for quite some time, who is infected.
- Funny enough this is actually not necessarily true for the FFP3 masks because quite of few have an outlet which allows droplets to get out. So those should only be used by medical personnel who need to protect themselves. Here we have the difference between protecting yourself or protecting others!
- Some claim that you can infect yourself when taking of the mask in the wrong way and it is contaminated with the virus. This of course can be true, but I'm completely lost how the mask can get contaminated while at the same time you wouldn't get infected by NOT wearing a mask. If a droplet containing the virus is caught by the mask and the mask gets contaminated my view is that a person without a mask would have inhaled it and would certainly get infected. What is my mistake here? Or to put it in another way, how can I contaminate a mask but would not get infected in the same environment when not wearing a mask - and no, I don't want to here the 'you touch your face more often' argument.

[oren]

Well said G.M., masks can help reduce contagiousness and don't have many downsides.

[Tom_Mazanec]

Well said G.M., masks can help reduce contagiousness and don't have many downsides.

Except availability.
My cousin/guardian has some he got in the ebola scare of 2014 but they are outdated and he can't come here to Twinsburg from Port Clinton anyway.

[oren]

Tom, you can also use a heavy scarf or any clothing item that can fit around your head, as long as it covers your mouth and nose. It's far from perfect but it would reduce your risk from others and your risk to others significantly. I used such a piece for a while.

[blumenkraft]

Nations debate over usage of face masks

[gandul]

'we don't have data to recommend one way or another' is such a weak argument.

No wonder East Asian countries look at us and think, with justice, that we must be idiots.
In Spain more and more people in the supermarkets with mask, most of them DIY. We are so much ahead of our pathetic officials. People are so fed up with government for their weak response all the time. Always behind. Always timid. Always erring in the do-nothing side. Always with. excuses. It is the kind of left that will tilt many to vote the neo-fascists.

[blumenkraft]

'we don't have data to recommend one way or another'

It's just the truth, not an argument.

[sigma_squared]

Good review of studies and current thinking:

https://www.vox.com/2020/3/31/21198132/coronavirus-covid-face-masks-n95-respirator-ppe-shortage

The evidence for everyone wearing masks, explained

There is some evidence that the public should wear masks. But let doctors and nurses get them first.

He mentions the face touching argument:

There’s also a risk of improper use actually exposing people to more illness. If people don’t put on the masks correctly, they won’t be as protective (though some barrier is likely better than none). If people touch the front of their masks and then touch other parts of their face, they can infect themselves with droplets their mask caught. If people reuse masks, they can breathe in virus-containing droplets from the masks while putting them on or taking them off.

Recommended solution:

Experts also offered some advice for proper mask use: Wash your hands before and after taking off a mask — before to avoid getting anything on your face and mask, and after to get rid of anything that was on your mask. Don’t fidget with your mask while it’s on. If possible, throw away masks after using them. And if you can’t throw a mask away, make sure to thoroughly disinfect it with ultraviolet light sterilizers — not something most people have around — or, if using a cloth product, soap and water.

Conclusion:

Based on the evidence, masks appear to help both the wearer and other people. The latter is particularly important for the coronavirus, since the disease can spread from those with few to no symptoms. So whether it’s for selfish or altruistic reasons, there could be a benefit to everyone, even the asymptomatic, wearing masks — as is standard and recommended by public officials in many Asian countries (including Taiwan and South Korea, both of which have done a better job containing Covid-19 than the US).

George Gao, director general of the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention, said as much in an interview with Science magazine:

The big mistake in the US and Europe, in my opinion, is that people aren’t wearing masks. This virus is transmitted by droplets and close contact. Droplets play a very important role — you’ve got to wear a mask, because when you speak, there are always droplets coming out of your mouth. Many people have asymptomatic or presymptomatic infections. If they are wearing face masks, it can prevent droplets that carry the virus from escaping and infecting others.

   
But part of persuading people to wear masks in these countries was simply more people wearing masks in public, removing the stigma that only sick people wear masks and making masks more socially acceptable. That’s an argument for everyone wearing a cloth mask now — and medical masks once supply shortages are fixed — when we go out. Not only could that help protect ourselves and those around us, it might help instill a healthier norm for the rest of society too.

[gandul]

 it’s not rocket science. In Western countries we can do it as well as in East Asian countries!

It’s clear people feel less awkward to wear them in Spain given the gravity of the situation and how much everyone wants to flatten the curve, and those not wearing are probably starting to feel, lets say, ‘naked’ and a bit guilty. Good!

[etienne]

Looks like the end of the lockdown will be with masks for everybody in the western countries. Since a few days, the authorities (WHO...) seem to change their mind and start to recommend it.

Luxembourg is a very good example.
Somewhere around the  10th of March : it's just a flu
16th of march lockdown, masks only for sick people
Around April 1st : masks are better than nothing.
Sometimes in a close future : masks will be mandatory in supermarkets, the only issue is where to find some, I guess this is the reason why we don't have to wear one right now.

[blumenkraft]

Masks are still highly unavailable.

Amazing how capitalism works. The market will solve those problems they told me...

[gandul]

Spanish health Minister has suggested that they possibly will set up a program to provide masks for the entire population when they eventually lift confinement measures. I'm glad to hear that, I hope they carry it cause I don't want to be confined forever.

[gandul]

Masks are still highly unavailable.

Amazing how capitalism works. The market will solve those problems they told me...

DiY blumenkraft, you should see how encouraging is to see people in Spain to wear all kinds of DiY masks, I feel we do better than the system does for us.

[Tor Bejnar]

I have a home-made mask made by a co-worker a month ago.  She commented about 2 weeks ago that when she got her design from the internet, most sites gave directions in Chinese, but that then (2 weeks ago) there were many in English.  (These may all refer to YouTube directions.)

My mask has two cotton cloth layers with a bump for the nose, with the option of placing a removable third layer in between.  I have a piece of (compressed) 1 cm thick quilt batting as the 3rd layer.  Also, I bent a paperclip to fit my nose and stitched it onto the mask, so now when I breathe, much less air shoots up around my nose, fogging my glasses.  Some temporary-plastic-name-badge elastic holds the mask to my face (via my ears).

I've worn this mask to buy groceries three times in 2½ weeks, once to the pharmacy (wife's meds) and once to take trash and recyclables to the transfer station (which I do once every 6 to 8 weeks).  Today was the first time I saw somebody else wearing a mask (one staff person in the co-op).

After hand-washing the mask after each outing (4 of them to date), I've outside-clothesline dried the mask [good UV and bad pollen ], and twice have done a final rinse in salty water.  (Actually, before I do a final wringing-it-out, I salt the outside surface, fold it over, then wring it out.)

[wehappyfew]

I've read that washing degrades the filtration efficiency by clumping the fibers together, leaving bigger pores between clumps.

A better disinfection process might be baking, dry, at 150F (65C) for an hour or two. Maybe in a covered glass baking dish to even out the temps and block IR from localized melting or charring.

[etienne]

For the piece of metal to adjust the mask to the nose, I used a piece of electric wire (copper). Works fine.

[gandul]

7-minute video focused on why everybody should wear a mask, and recommendations on what find of masks to use. Main idea: masas are not perfect but protect, and most importantly, avoid that everone infect others by becoming droplets barrier when anyone speak, sing, shout, sneeze or cough.

[SteveMDFP]

I thought this was an excellent video, using readily-available materials.  No sewing needed:

How To Make A No Sew DIY N95 Type Protective Face Mask

[etienne]

I read that you can also put a paper handkerchief inside  DIY mask to increase the efficiency. The interesting thing is that it is possible to replace it as often as required.
 

[Florifulgurator]

Here is visual evidence that even simple masks are helpful. No need to understand German. Just watch the high speed camera experiments.
 

[Tom_Mazanec]

My cousin/guardian is mailing me a few 2014 vintage masks.
Meanwhile, I ordered 50 from Amazon:

Arriving Apr 24 - May 15

[gandul]

My cousin/guardian is mailing me a few 2014 vintage masks.
Meanwhile, I ordered 50 from Amazon:

Arriving Apr 24 - May 15

Good luck with that. I finally got some surgeon-type masks and gloves from Amazon, I think I ordered when schools were being closed (a month ago!).
Maybe now is faster, China is manufacturing a lot I'm sure.

[blumenkraft]

I'm going to change the sign so the pole is horizontal and the sign is mounted on the front like a plunger, so I can carry it around like a lance to gently push people back if they try to approach.

[Tom_Mazanec]

My cousin Sandy in the dentist office might be able to get me a couple.

[blumenkraft]

Effectiveness of Surgical and Cotton Masks in Blocking SARS–CoV-2: A Controlled Comparison in 4 Patients

In conclusion, both surgical and cotton masks seem to be ineffective in preventing the dissemination of SARS–CoV-2 from the coughs of patients with COVID-19 to the environment and external mask surface.

Link >> https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764367/effectiveness-surgical-cotton-masks-blocking-sars-cov-2-controlled-comparison

[gandul]

Perhaps these types of masks are not perfect, but they get closer to ideal.

[Archimid]

Ok then.

Effectiveness of Surgical and Cotton Masks in Blocking SARS–CoV-2: A Controlled Comparison in 4 Patients

In conclusion, both surgical and cotton masks seem to be ineffective in preventing the dissemination of SARS–CoV-2 from the coughs of patients with COVID-19 to the environment and external mask surface.

Link >> https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764367/effectiveness-surgical-cotton-masks-blocking-sars-cov-2-controlled-comparison

The results of this experiment prove that the cotton mask show an order of magnitude improvement over no mask or even a surgical mask. One order of magnitude less virus means faster deactivation of the virus and lesser infections.


I have no clue why would the authors of that experiment obtain an order of magnitude reduction of viral load yet claim that masks are not effective. I believe it is because of the lack of perfection.  An order of magnitude less viable virus is not ZERO virus, thus the authors think of it as not good.

The perfect is the enemy of the good.

Furthermore, the authors only tested at 20cm from the face. Look at the image above. At 20cm there is plenty of disruption. At 50 cm mask use should be much more beneficial.

The conclusions of that paper do not match the results, at all.

[blumenkraft]

What part of "ineffective" don't you understand?

Don't forget, you are the guy who said:

Masks can be seen as temporary vaccines. With good mask use, most social tasks can resume with minimal risk.

[Sigmetnow]

“In Eastern cultures people wear masks during flu season to protect others and then they come here and it’s startling and horrible to them that we don’t.”
The Ethics of Mask-Wearing During the Coronavirus Pandemic
https://time.com/5815299/coronavirus-face-mask-ethics/


To a person of color in the U.S., wearing a mask can mean choosing to risk dying from a knife or gun, instead of coronavirus.
Why some people of color say they won't wear homemade masks
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/07/us/face-masks-ethnicity-coronavirus-cdc-trnd/index.html

[Archimid]

What part of "ineffective" don't you understand?

The part where their own data shows effectiveness. The order of magnitude of reduction across all masks is not insignificant. However, someone looking for perfection might dismiss this very real advantage.

Don't forget, you are the guy who said:

Masks can be seen as temporary vaccines. With good mask use, most social tasks can resume with minimal risk.

And it was true then and it continues to be true now. While wearing masks, susceptible people become partially immune, thus they are temporary vaccines that work only while you wear them.

[Perezoso]

Dear All,

I have been reading you for the last 4 years, since the summer of 2016. It has been a pleasure for me reading you and I have learn a lot. I do not think I can say anything about ice in the arctic, but yes about masks.

There are two main reasons why masks are not mandatory in western world (Europe and US).

The first one is that we do not have masks. But this will be solve in a few weeks, masks are going to be produces in terms of billions per day.

The second one is that mask to be effective must be combined with all the classical methods, i.e. washing hands and social distancing.

I am sure when available it will be compulsory to wear them.

Take a look to the following paper in the British Medical Journal it is a review on the subject published in 2007.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2190272/

[Archimid]

A few videos in the link and a bonus video by the great Dr. Campbell.

Turbulent Gas Clouds and Respiratory Pathogen Emissions

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2763852

Turbulent gas cloud dynamics should influence the design and recommended use of surgical and other masks. These masks can be used both for source control (ie, reducing spread from an infected person) and for protection of the wearer (ie, preventing spread to an unaffected person). The protective efficacy of N95 masks depends on their ability to filter incoming air from aerosolized droplet nuclei. However, these masks are only designed for a certain range of environmental and local conditions and a limited duration of usage.9 Mask efficacy as source control depends on the ability of the mask to trap or alter the high-momentum gas cloud emission with its pathogenic payload. Peak exhalation speeds can reach up to 33 to 100 feet per second (10-30 m/s), creating a cloud that can span approximately 23 to 27 feet (7-8 m). Protective and source control masks, as well as other protective equipment, should have the ability to repeatedly withstand the kind of high-momentum multiphase turbulent gas cloud that may be ejected during a sneeze or a cough and the exposure from them. Currently used surgical and N95 masks are not tested for these potential characteristics of respiratory emissions.

[Florifulgurator]

The results of this experiment prove that the cotton mask show an order of magnitude improvement over no mask or even a surgical mask. One order of magnitude less virus means faster deactivation of the virus and lesser infections.


I have no clue why would the authors of that experiment obtain an order of magnitude reduction of viral load yet claim that masks are not effective.

Mathematical/statistical cluelessness is amazingly widespread in medicine and biology. Even some virologists have problems. Yesterday I had to shout at a mask denialist with a PhD in entomology. She is a virtuoso at the electron microscope but has no grasp of exponential growth. Alas these are the "experts" people listen to.

It can already make a huge difference if people with mask infect only 2 instead of 3 without it.


(My posts can come with long delay due to censorship. See German mask video above.)

[Tor Bejnar]

 Last week I saw one or two other person with a mask.  Today, all but one of the staff members of the food co-op, and all but one of the customers (about 5 of us), was wearing a mask.

[gandul]

Dear All,

I have been reading you for the last 4 years, since the summer of 2016. It has been a pleasure for me reading you and I have learn a lot. I do not think I can say anything about ice in the arctic, but yes about masks.

There are two main reasons why masks are not mandatory in western world (Europe and US).

The first one is that we do not have masks. But this will be solve in a few weeks, masks are going to be produces in terms of billions per day.

The second one is that mask to be effective must be combined with all the classical methods, i.e. washing hands and social distancing.

I am sure when available it will be compulsory to wear them.

Take a look to the following paper in the British Medical Journal it is a review on the subject published in 2007.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2190272/

Hello synonymous,
I agree with you that's what's gonna happen.
But I was able to get surgical masks from Amazon very recently after 1 month of wait. I expect they will be more readily available now.
Surgical masks protect a minimum which is much better than nothing and if everyone wears them, contagions are avoided. Same with a piece of cloth.
The ffp2 or N95 are impossible, I think, to find, at least in Spain, for obvious reasons.

[Archimid]

Welcome Perezoso. Allow me to be annoying:

The first one is that we do not have masks. But this will be solve in a few weeks, masks are going to be produces in terms of billions per day.

The truth of this statement depends on how you define masks. If you define masks as Surgical masks or higher grade products, then yes. But if you define a mask as an object used to block particles from entering or leaving the mouth and nose, like a bandana, then there is no shortage of masks. 

The second one is that mask to be effective must be combined with all the classical methods, i.e. washing hands and social distancing.

Masks are somewhat effective, even if misused. Any good masking habit adds to the effectiveness of the mask. This might seem like a trivial detail, but it is not. In an epidemic, every small efficiency gets multiplied.

[kassy]

FWIW i have to work, masks not allowed.

We do the social distancing thing + hand washing. The first is enforced sort of, the second is up to the individuals because you simply cannot check this.

In the netherlands masks are uncommon but distancing seems to work in supermarkets which are probably the most dangerous places i venture into.

The thing i reallly hate are these people not getting it.

In the early phase just before the country went proper lockdown it was still cold so many people with the usual sniffles or Covid. No way to know. The last day the AD/UN paper ran a headline with tips on the new guidance. Things like if you have any symptoms resembling cold/flu and you are not doing critical work stay home. I showed that paper to some people with the simple suggestion that they phoned there bosses about it. About 2 in 3 turned.

I did that tying to stay away as fa as practical , basically that 1,5 m limit.

It usually works but you still have people that think that it does not happen to them then you have people getting up close because they are deaf but too proud to get a hearing aid etc.

Some people just do not see lines saying do not cross unless they look back and then they are within a meter of you and ask why there is a line while speaking with consumption.

The argument for Asia was that if only sick had to wear a mask that would stigmatize them so if everyone wore one that would remove that. The same is true with our anti-authorian slant. IF they just made everyone wear some type of low level mask and not wearing one would be worthy of a fine that would take the edge of.

And the reasoning is actually simple. It might not stop 100% but whatever it stops is a gain for R0. It also stops people with no sense for lines, posters or the general news from sneezing on you.

PS; The supermarkets now have these plexiglass things at the counter This works boths ways. A couple of years ago i went into a line which was pretty short and had my favorite check out girl. Soon i was up and all went fine until she had this explosive sneeze straight into my face. She apologized and there is nothing she could have done (she did not look sick at all) but i was in bad next day.

Some solutions are simple and basically no one loses if you put on make shift mask.

[TerryM]

^^
Ramen!!

"no one loses if you put on a make shift mask."

When masks are prevalent, wearing them will rapidly become mandatory.
Terry

PS
An employer that won't allow masks in the workplace is asking for litigation. I'm amazed that your boss takes risks like that with his employee's health & his company's funds.

[gandul]

Yeah, but employees of essential businesses are scared of losing employment with so much reason (remember the guy at Amazon in Staten Island, he was gutted mercilessly) so most shut up and eat employer's conditions. It is a bad situation.

[blumenkraft]

Preliminary results and conclusions of the COVID-19 Case Cluster Study (Gangelt municipality)

Prof. Dr. Hendrik Streeck (Institute for Virology)

I saw an interesting interview with the main author last week on the German ZDF. What struck me most, was that he explained that they checked all kinds of surfaces for the virus (including mobile phones, remotes, door knobs and even pets) and found that it was very hard for the virus to be transmitted that way. He literally said: Someone with the virus would have to cough in their hand, immediately after that touch a door knob, and not too long after that, someone else would have to touch that same door knob.

This contradicts that study that was widely circulated a few weeks ago about the virus being able to survive on plastic for X days, cardboard for Y days, etc. Is it because the study was conducted in a lab environment, and in the real world the virus isn't able to survive as long on surfaces?

If these new findings turn out to be correct i recede my skepticism regarding masks because an infection via droplet transmission looks more unlikely and aerosol transmission more likely.

[Tom_Mazanec]

Tried one of the masks my cousin/guardian Jim sent me yesterday.
Made my glasses fog up.
Supposed to be disposable but I will reuse it once or twice, at least till I get more (I just have three). And just when I have to "go" somewhere, not just taking a walk.
When I get the masks from Amazon I'll wear them more.

[etienne]

Hello,

Just a link to a comment made by Sam before the Mask topic was separated of the Covid19 topic.

It's about how to use a mask.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2996.msg255277.html#msg255277

Regards,

Etienne

[gandul]

They are distributing masks in public transport hubs in Spain.

[gandul]

[Florifulgurator]

Tried one of the masks my cousin/guardian Jim sent me yesterday.
Made my glasses fog up.
Supposed to be disposable but I will reuse it once or twice, at least till I get more (I just have three). And just when I have to "go" somewhere, not just taking a walk.
When I get the masks from Amazon I'll wear them more.

Easiest: Put them in the washing machine (60°C +).
Better: Dip in water (ideally: salt water) and put in oven at 70°C until dry and/or for at leasr half an hour. If the mask has no metal parts, you can use the microwave.

Strong salting might even improve the efficiency of the mask: When the salty aerosol dries up, the virus likely gets killed. This is at least proven for flu virus.