Who would like to take over the ASIF?

[KiwiGriff]

I have seen a blog destroyed by overzealous moderation.
There are  a few on my personal block list that would not necessarily mean i want to see those commentators banned just because I don't see the point in their contributions. 
The three names put forward have my support providing they each moderate the extremes of the others personalty's and reach a comprise before taking drastic actions.
An echo chamber is pointless it is beneficial to have a diversity of views.

[uniquorn]

My suggestion. Let others administrate the political side and give it another name. Concentrate what little spare time you have on the ice that you love. The job will be much easier and maybe more scientists will come back.

[Pmt111500]

My suggestion. Let others administrate the political side and give it another name. Concentrate what little spare time you have on the ice that you love. The job will be much easier and maybe more scientists will come back.

+1
I'd nominate <sleepy> as a moderator but he got fed up with politics and left. Maybe he reads still, but doesn't discuss anymore. And why discuss when the other side says it's solely on the individual and the other says this is an ethical thing. Moral fibers are so flexible or possibly even non-existent in some individuals (take one fstate fleader, f.e. the name of whom I won't say) that it's rather pointless to have political arguments over whose King is the best king. People have gone to wars over that.

[gandul]

Just as Neven never allowed climate change denialism from respective websites. We all can agree that anthropomorphic climate change is happening, right? People who deny this were never welcome here.

This is not good. There are a few denialists around of which I enjoy the back and forth, or their irony, or how wrong they always turn out to be (like the weather dude hehe). Why banning every denier?. I would ban the typical 99% of WUWT irrational and insulting posters but there's that one percent not so irrational and not insulting...
BK this is not black and white, there are greys

[passenger66]

For those who say whoever should not mod because of something from the past is it not worth considering that people are capable of learning from the past? Learning from mistakes is not impossible - I hope growing is always possible.

[grixm]

Define  "offensive," "defamation," "harassment," "obscene," "racist" and "discriminatory" ?

Really, as they are perceived in a common sense. Don't insult people, don't hate on minorities, don't discriminate.

I have already posted an example of you defining racism in a way I completely disagree with. He didn't hate on minorities and yet you practically called him a nazi and said you wish he weren't allowed to post here. Can you comment on that? Will that be the definition you would use while moderating?

I have seen a blog destroyed by overzealous moderation.

So have I. Well, a subreddit, not a blog, but it really sucks and I pray this will not happen here.

[uniquorn]

Who would like to take over the ASIF?
Arctic Sea Ice Forum.
Why isn't the discussion about ICE?

[Phoenix]

My $.02 as a lurker.

1) The primary asset of this forum are the regular content contributors. Gerontocrat, Wipneus, Juan Garcia, Uniquorn, Abrupt SLR, Aluminum, Paolo & Baking, Vox_Mundi, Oren, Blumenkraft, etc, etc.  In order for the site to continue to thrive, those people need to feel good about continuing to post here and should be given a MUCH larger voice in determining the future leadership of the forum.

I would ask Neven to determine who those high value contributors are and solicit their feedback.

2) Leadership and vision are important as is passion and availability to lead. Oren has the respect of many here, but isn't asking for the job. Blumenkraft clearly has the passion and availability and is volunteering for the job and I would support that. His decision to temporarily leave the site was a highly principled protest. He clearly cares and has a morality standard.

There will be people who object to BL as there were people who objected to Neven. There's no perfect person on an internet forum.

3) ASIF is an asset to scientific discourse and discussion and also a rare community where people can feel comfortable discussing dark topics like human extinction w/o stigma. It's a mental health resource for some. It should continue and evolve.

[Archimid]

My suggestion. Let others administrate the political side and give it another name. Concentrate what little spare time you have on the ice that you love. The job will be much easier and maybe more scientists will come back.

Yep +1.

[Paul]

I guess this means it's the end of the Arctic sea ice blog also which would be a great shame(although understandable) unless someone can take over from it? It's been a useful way of learning and not only that interesting to read as it's unbiased and educational.

As for the moderating side of things then if anyone on this forum is a moderator on other forums(regardless of topic) then maybe they should come forward as experience will help. I'm not one and nor will I apply to be one but in theory, if we act like adults and accept people's opinions then the job should be easier.

I wish Nevan all the best and hopefully we can see his posts in here from time to time during the melt season.

[etienne]

Thank you very much Neven. I didn't imagine you could do all that work alone. To burn out is a dangerous thing that should be avoided at any cost, because once the point is reached, everything breaks anyway.

I'm not sure that we need to regulate what can be published, common sense should be enough and Neven is a good example of how it should work. But I believe that we need rules to say how the forum is managed.

From what I read here, I would imagine a team of moderators, each one would manage one or more of the 12 main categories depending of their interests (from "Arctic sea ice" to "The forum").
To block a user (including a moderator), a majority of the moderators should agree.
The first group of moderators could be selected by Neven, and in the future a majority of moderator would be needed to select a new one.

Once again, thank you Neven for the work. I also learned a lot here.

Etienne

[Neven]

The problem with rules is that they make things rigid, and before you know it, everybody loses, except the lawyers. I've always made an effort to keep a couple of members on who went against the grain, just to keep the juices flowing. Not always easy, and usually ending with me banning some of them too late.

I want to thank everyone for their input. I think that three moderators, one for each section, would go a long way (and maybe someone to ban spambots). I could remain admin in the background.

The biggest problem, as mentioned by others, are the political discussions. Many times I've considered shutting them down (I actually swore I would close them if Sanders would successfully be swindled out of the Democratic nomination), but as Gerontocrat says, everything is political, especially AGW. And so these discussions would inevitably erupt in the more science-minded threads. Maybe it would be a good idea to create a special Politics subforum under The Rest, but the problem of moderation remains.

I'm going to sleep on this some more and report back tomorrow. Thanks again for all the input.

[johnm33]

Thanks for all you've done Neven, I did pause after your comment 'But what does concentrated wealth want?' best wishes for renewed vigour and happier times.
 Sad day, but all things change, glad Oren's on board, always seems fair and knows when enoughs enough.
What about a team of 5 not too big, enough to spread the load? Elected? Self nomination, 5 votes each in order of preference. Personally I'm for benign dictatorship and 'my house my rules' otherwise the meaning of meaning debates get protracted but if it has to be a commitee then they should set their own guidelines and each should comment on each others autonomous decisions at least for a while. Maybe a sin bin to dump comments with guidance for reconsideration?

[Neven]

Thank you very much Neven. I didn't imagine you could do all that work alone. To burn out is a dangerous thing that should be avoided at any cost, because once the point is reached, everything breaks anyway.

I fear the point was reached a couple of years ago already, but as I've always been self-employed, there was an incentive to suppress (and I have an Internet/information addiction). My father's demise may have been catalytic. I don't know, I'll probably know later.

I'm not saying this to worry anyone. I'm doing reasonably well, just tired and missing direction.

I guess this means it's the end of the Arctic sea ice blog also which would be a great shame(although understandable) unless someone can take over from it?

It's still my hope/illusion that I will take up blogging about Arctic sea ice again at some point. As an experience, it has been more enriching and educative than I could have imagined.

[Tor Bejnar]

I have been sensing something like this was in the air for about six months.  (I'm only 18 months off!  That's a factor of 3 - akin to how far off many of my ice-related projections are!)

Thank you for all the inspiration you've been, Neven!  To demonstrate my appreciation, I've sent in a donation, which I have done several times over the years.  [For others:  ASIB right column, top link in the circle.  Or here.]

I'm wondering what our most prodigious posters (and especially our prodigious sciene-focused posters) have to say.  In practice, they have set much of the tone in recent months.  I expect some PMs are in order.  I'd sure like to see a few former (sciency) posters return.  What would bring them back?  B_'s rules?  Don't know.

[bluice]

Many thanks for everything Neven. Sad to hear you’ve had too much but at the same time I want to congratulate for having the guts to call it a day, it probably isn’t easy.

Moderation should be strict enough to remove the obvious trolls from ruining the threads, but tolerant enough to allow free exchange of ideas, also the sometimes annoying ones.

Moderators should be able to cool the heated discussions and keep emotional distance. FWIW I recommend first and foremost Oren to lead the future team..

If unsure, you should probably let the content contributing science posters decide.

As Gerontocrat, one of the most valuable posters here, pointed out all things AGW are political. Please keep the political section because otherwise politics will pollute and poison the ice and agw threads which are the bread and butter of this forum

[uniquorn]

As an experience, it has been more enriching and educative than I could have imagined.

Me too. See you in the black
and never say bye when you're drunk    

[Wherestheice]

I am not sure how many people moderate now, or if it is just Neven.

My pitch is we elect a a group of moderators. 3-4 individuals or so. Each moderator would have his/her own task, and this would lighten the load on everyone.

This life is short, and with climate change and environmental collapse it always has the potential of being shorter. I do think you should take a break Neven if it is bugging you. We have built a strong community on this forum, and I think we can all be thankful for that.

[VaughnAn]

Firstly, Neven, thank you for your tireless support for this ASIF and your generous gift of your time towards its continued existence.  I have learned many things from the immense collective knowledge of the people posting herein.  Per my estimation, I have read about 30-40% of everything posted on the ASIF since you initiated it even though I do not post very often.  I have similar gratitude for the ASIB as well and probably have read over 90% of everything posted there.  I know I am not alone in my gratitude and learning from your wonderful gift to the world.

My pitch is we elect a a group of moderators. 3-4 individuals or so. Each moderator would have his/her own task, and this would lighten the load on everyone.

This life is short, and with climate change and environmental collapse it always has the potential of being shorter. I do think you should take a break Neven if it is bugging you. We have built a strong community on this forum, and I think we can all be thankful for that.

It sounds like 3 posters have volunteered to moderate this forum.  I agree this is a good number and I hope each of the moderators Neven approves to take over this valuable Forum can divide up the work and keep the ASIF on track.  I would also like to see one more moderator have the job of monitoring the political section of this forum.  This has been suggested by Wherestheice and other posters as well.

As Wherestheice says, it is critical we stay informed about environmental effects that could make our lives much shorter. For that, plus a place to come together and stay somewhat sane we need the ASIF to continue to be a decisive voice in the fog of others uncertainty and even sometimes our own.  Thank you, Neven.

[interstitial]

Thanks Neven for all the work you have done. While I was not a denier this forum has helped me see just how urgent global warming is. Your passion and dedication to this topic have not only affected those who read the blogs but also the wider world. 


IMO I think one person should be in charge and they can run the forum how they see fit. Any committee of people can lead to endless discussions on how to do things and make it that much more work to run the forum. If they want to delegate they can or not depending on their preferences. While the wrong moderator will ruin the forum a committee and voting will likely do the same thing. As an example if someone gets censured they may start politicking trying to gather support. That would probably lead to people leaving as well.

[P-maker]

Neven,

Please let me me add my sincere thanks for your great efforts over the years.

After yet another horrifying (but time comsuming) look at the COVID19 thread, I started to reflect on the type of people who can produce 105 pages of both interesting and readable stuff in such a short time.

My impression is that this forum consists of mainly 50+ males concerned about their own health and Ultimate risk of dying. In order to pursue our own all-encompassing global risk assessment, we are all into numbers, facts, evidence and noise reduction.

In order to ease the future burden on moderators to be, please let me suggest a simple system of "triage" for the globe, as is known from the medical world. A simple system of rating the subjects/topics to be discussed could be based on their immediate threat to the lives of forum members and those we care for. This system of rating should replace the silly "like" system introduced some years ago.

A simple three colour system (red, yellow, green) could be administered by forum members on our own on a daily basis (replacing those stupid polls on dates, extents and # of deaths ). Having two extra categories reserved for the moderators ( Black if subject has to die, and White if untidy contributors should go home in self isolation for a limited time period ) might make the moderation job easier.

One of three moderators would thus for a time period be in charge of each colour, realizing that the red colour cases will be the hardest to follow closely and moderate accordingly.

Just an idea to help us all get an easier life.

[Jim Hunt]

I guess this means it's the end of the Arctic sea ice blog also which would be a great shame(although understandable) unless someone can take over from it?

I agree, and whilst I don't wish to "take it over" in all the circumstances I am currently trying to (ab)use my moderator privileges over there.

Neven - I have created an experimental new PIOMAS article over at the ASIB. I can preview it OK, but Typepad doesn't appear to want to let me save it as a draft. Can you see any sign of it yet? If not, what do you suggest?

"Forget the idea Jim!" is of course an acceptable answer.

[Ktb]

It sounds like 3 posters have volunteered to moderate this forum. 

At least one of whom has been quite loudly opposed by several members of the forum. Perhaps the first options to present themselves in any given situation are not the best options.

A simple three colour system (red, yellow, green) could be administered by forum members on our own on a daily basis (replacing those stupid polls on dates, extents and # of deaths ). Having two extra categories reserved for the moderators ( Black if subject has to die, and White if untidy contributors should go home in self isolation for a limited time period ) might make the moderation job easier.

A coloring system sounds like additional work on top of everything. What if forum members brigade a topic? "I don't like what so and so said, time to post something so vitriolic that other members will be forced to make this red or the mod will have to make this black."

[Pmt111500]

Coloring system might sound a good idea. I'd flag all threads with any political content as red, 'rumours, bargains and lies' is inherent in those.

[Aporia_filia]

Thanks a lot for your work Neven, this has become our second home for some of us.
And I'm happy thinking you are not disappearing but relaxing on your duties.

Oren, bc, Terry, Kassy, would be great people to take over. And some others who haven't offered themselves.
As a scientific forum no other rule than the search for knowledge should be considered, IMHO.

[greylib]

I've been a member of many forums over the years. Most of them no longer exist, largely down to mistakes by the "management" - mods and admin. Sometimes they fail because of insufficient intervention leading to unpleasant and offputting infighting; mostly they fail because of too much intervention.

ASIF has evolved since its start. Nowadays the most active threads are concerned with rapidly-developing situations: hurricanes, floods, wildfires. This is regrettable, when we're supposed to be discussing events that can only be seen over decades, not hours. But very human. My bookmark to the forum is "Recent Unread Topics", leading me straight to the most active threads. I'm as much a news junkie as everyone <slaps wrist>.

This forum is a diamond. The subtitle "Interesting Discussions" applied when I joined seven years ago, and still applies today. ASIF is my first calling-point when I start an online session, and usually my last before I shut down. Somehow, Neven has managed to get the balance just right - King Log rather than King Stork:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Frogs_Who_Desired_a_King
Instead of jumping straight in with a putdown, Neven tends to leave the offender alone until it's quite clear that normal warnings by other members aren't going to work. Then, and only then, he steps in and usually manages to calm things down.

Blumenkraft, I feel, wouldn't take this approach. He administers fast slapdowns, often unfairly, and using quite a lot of obscenity (including a recent one to myself, so I'm admitting a bias here). He likes arguments, and likes to keep them going as long as he can. A forum where he had authority would be very different from the one we have now. He says

readiness to find a heated argument even where none need exist.

Guilty as charged i guess. But as a moderator, i would be aware of the responsibility and not act like i was a random forum member. A moderator needs to be neutral.

"A moderator needs to be neutral". Blum cannot be neutral. He's headstrong and passionate. This is an asset in a forum member - ASIF would be a poorer and more lonely place without him and others like him - but it's usually unwise to give authority to people like that. I have never seen anyone becoming MORE moderate when given authority. Usually they become a lot more immoderate.

[Niall Dollard]

I just want to express my thanks to Neven for all your work in guiding/leading the ASIF.

In such a big forum, moderation is needed. But I would hope that it is gentle/infrequent in nature.

And I wish all the best to whoever takes on the role(s) of guiding this good ship in the future.

[Jim Hunt]

I have never seen anyone becoming MORE moderate when given authority.

Now that you come to mention it, neither have I.

Usually they become a lot more immoderate.

Quite so.

[be cause]

my role will be to moderate BL .. .. b.c.

[Aluminium]

I would suggest oren from this list.

What about re-election after a certain time? Time will show if our choice was lucky.

[KiwiGriff]

I was hoping oren would do that BC.
Your much appreciated humor added to the mix would be  the sealing of the deal for me at least.

[The Walrus]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Frogs_Who_Desired_a_King
Instead of jumping straight in with a putdown, Neven tends to leave the offender alone until it's quite clear that normal warnings by other members aren't going to work. Then, and only then, he steps in and usually manages to calm things down.

Blumenkraft, I feel, wouldn't take this approach. He administers fast slapdowns, often unfairly, and using quite a lot of obscenity (including a recent one to myself, so I'm admitting a bias here). He likes arguments, and likes to keep them going as long as he can. A forum where he had authority would be very different from the one we have now. He says

readiness to find a heated argument even where none need exist.

Guilty as charged i guess. But as a moderator, i would be aware of the responsibility and not act like i was a random forum member. A moderator needs to be neutral.

"A moderator needs to be neutral". Blum cannot be neutral. He's headstrong and passionate. This is an asset in a forum member - ASIF would be a poorer and more lonely place without him and others like him - but it's usually unwise to give authority to people like that. I have never seen anyone becoming MORE moderate when given authority. Usually they become a lot more immoderate.

Very few posters here are neutral.  Neven was a passionate Bernie supporter, and made it known.  He has done a good job here, but he was not neutral.  This forum is not known for neutrality, and most posters have strong opinions.  It would be very difficult to find a truly neutral moderate from this group.  The only issue is whether the moderator(s) would allow dissenting opinions.

[blumenkraft]

I was hoping oren would do that BC.

Both will. And Kassy too. And i will listen.

[Gerous]

Hello Neven,

i am lurker sinds 2010 on the ASIB and i am member number 16 on this forum.

I just want to use this thread to say: thank you for all your work and contributions.

I would feel enlightened if you stay as admin in the background to slap some moderators hands if needed.

[SimonF92]

Thanks for all your efforts keeping this place going Neven, you deserve a medal, its a pretty amazing achievement.

Hope to still see your input from time to time and best wishes.

[Pmt111500]

As long as the elected moderator is aware of the very large difference between European and American moderates, he/she can probably adjust his/her expectations of persons online... I'm of course still of the opinion that if a member admits being a republican or a member of another science-denying party, the moderators should have the opportunity to save us other members of anti-science drivel and general maladjusted BS. Sadly, I know this is not what Neven wants of this forum (I think there was a dispute way back about this, which resulted in me leaving the forum for couple of months) and hopefully there is some educational value here, even for religious science-denying zealots. I doubt it, but miracles happen daily, they say...

[Jim Hunt]

Neven was a passionate Bernie supporter, and made it known.

In case the significance escapes you perhaps I should point out the "passion" to which you refer was in the "Politics" section of the ASIF? Not in the "Arctic sea ice science" section!

[Neven]

Very few posters here are neutral.  Neven was a passionate Bernie supporter, and made it known.  He has done a good job here, but he was not neutral.

Quite right, I was far from neutral. Blumenkraft will monitor and moderate the Off-topic category, and I'm quite confident he will do a good job. I hope the job will help him shape his views, as it did mine. Be cause will help out as well, because it's the most difficult category to moderate. Oren will take care of the Cryosphere section, and kassy will keep an eye on the AGW in general category.

I would feel enlightened if you stay as admin in the background to slap some moderators hands if needed.

I will stay admin and support the moderators wherever I can.

That's how things stand right now. I will start to implement things later today.

[Ktb]

If it is not too late, I think there should be some diversity in the moderators. Age, sex, region, etc.

Edit: Just as Sanders was the best person for president, if the best moderators all happen to be 55 year old white men, so be it. But a diverse pool of people would be nice.

[kassy]

I will stay admin and support the moderators wherever I can.

That is great to hear. I think this is important to keep the style.

Een hoop handen maken licht werk. 

[El Cid]

... I'm of course still of the opinion that if a member admits being a republican or a member of another science-denying party, the moderators should have the opportunity to save us other members of anti-science drivel and general maladjusted BS.

WOW. So if someone belongs to some group you would automatically ban them. Liberalism at its best! I am starting to worry about the future after Neven...

[The Walrus]

... I'm of course still of the opinion that if a member admits being a republican or a member of another science-denying party, the moderators should have the opportunity to save us other members of anti-science drivel and general maladjusted BS.

WOW. So if someone belongs to some group you would automatically ban them. Liberalism at its best! I am starting to worry about the future after Neven...

Yeah, I would to see it come to that.  The last thing we need is a close-knit ideological site that does not accept anything or anyone that is new or different.   

[Pmt111500]

... I'm of course still of the opinion that if a member admits being a republican or a member of another science-denying party, the moderators should have the opportunity to save us other members of anti-science drivel and general maladjusted BS.

WOW. So if someone belongs to some group you would automatically ban them. Liberalism at its best! I am starting to worry about the future after Neven...

Yep, not all in the left are liberal. Tolerance has tolerances. On a bad day I could be way worse than BK. But I've said no, partly for just that.
http://theconversation.com/the-difference-between-left-and-liberal-and-why-voters-need-to-know-120273

Rather simple, actually, if you don't accept science, you don't get to say your opinion on it. Now, reasoned opinion is another matter, and that, I'm sorry, does not include 'I don't like it.' Add to that, if you don't accept science, by banning I'd be helping you to stay focused to what ever garbage you want to be focused on.

[kassy]

El Cid in case you missed it Neven is staying on.

[gandul]

Very few posters here are neutral.  Neven was a passionate Bernie supporter, and made it known.  He has done a good job here, but he was not neutral.

Quite right, I was far from neutral. Blumenkraft will monitor and moderate the Off-topic category, and I'm quite confident he will do a good job. I hope the job will help him shape his views, as it did mine. Be cause will help out as well, because it's the most difficult category to moderate. Oren will take care of the Cryosphere section, and kassy will keep an eye on the AGW in general category.

I would feel enlightened if you stay as admin in the background to slap some moderators hands if needed.

I will stay admin and support the moderators wherever I can.

That's how things stand right now. I will start to implement things later today.

Sounds really good to me. Thanks Neven for keeping this place alive and well

[KiwiGriff]

Reality has a liberal bias.

[Phoenix]

Congrats on the decision to evolve.  Now that a decision has been made, perhaps this thread can be locked and relevant discussion can move to Forum Decorum ??

[Juan C. García]

Quite right, I was far from neutral. Blumenkraft will monitor and moderate the Off-topic category, and I'm quite confident he will do a good job. I hope the job will help him shape his views, as it did mine. Be cause will help out as well, because it's the most difficult category to moderate. Oren will take care of the Cryosphere section, and kassy will keep an eye on the AGW in general category.

I will stay admin and support the moderators wherever I can.

Seems that at the end, ASIF is going to be stronger than before.

Great Neven. Feel free to take a holiday, as long as you like. I just have to say that we have this subjects in our blood*. I had tried to leave them, only to realize that I cannot do it. AGW is very important, so important, that we can not leave this knowledge to the politicians. So, I hope that ASIF will have more future years! And we will have you back when there is something important to say.

Thank you: Blumenkraft, Be Cause, Oren and Kassy for accepting new tasks on the ASIF!

Edit: *Maybe is just a Mexican expression. It means that is part of our life.

[Thomas Barlow]

Sorry to hear about your father.

Managing these forums seems like an impossible job. No-one knows how you kept up.
Thanks for all of this. Good luck.

[BeeKnees]

Give the job to two/ three people you trust. 

Those who jump at the chance tend to be the wrong people for the job.

Better to have quiet, gentle moderation by consensus than someone wanting to make a name for themself.