Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: River ice and Discharge  (Read 3500 times)

Aluminium

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 578
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 475
  • Likes Given: 339
River ice and Discharge
« on: April 09, 2020, 02:10:19 PM »
River ice was mentioned several times and probably has some importance for the Arctic. Also it's beautiful.

For a start, the Abakan (the Yenisei basin).

« Last Edit: May 23, 2020, 11:55:23 AM by oren »

grixm

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 245
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 154
  • Likes Given: 51
Re: River ice
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2020, 02:26:37 PM »
When rivers start to flow like that, is the water above 0C, despite there being ice on top? In other words would the water contribute to sea ice melt once it reaches the arctic sea?

blumenkraft

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3907
  • Fans of Hans Ø Club - circa 2018
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1361
  • Likes Given: 2139
Re: River ice
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2020, 02:38:45 PM »
Great thread idea, Aluminium!
CEO of bitcoin & Antifa

Aluminium

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 578
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 475
  • Likes Given: 339
Re: River ice
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2020, 02:50:42 PM »
When rivers start to flow like that, is the water above 0C, despite there being ice on top? In other words would the water contribute to sea ice melt once it reaches the arctic sea?
Main source of water is melting snow this time of year. Ice protects water from sunlight. I think, contribution may be actually positive for Arctic ice. On the other hand, early melting have certain albedo effect.

Stephan

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1165
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 481
  • Likes Given: 200
Re: River ice
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2020, 02:55:27 PM »
Great thread idea, aluminium.
We should also discuss here dates of river flow start in spring in comparison with former years. I remember some McKenzie River discussions from last year, but I can't remember, in which thread they had been posted.
It is too late just to be concerned about Climate Change

Aluminium

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 578
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 475
  • Likes Given: 339
Re: River ice
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2020, 10:01:59 PM »
As for old averages, I found this map. Hard to see but better than nothing. Dates was calculated in 1995.

Aluminium

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 578
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 475
  • Likes Given: 339
Re: River ice
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2020, 03:08:17 AM »
A webcam is located near the Lena River in Ust-Kut.


Tor Bejnar

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3374
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 607
  • Likes Given: 279
Re: River ice
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2020, 06:35:09 AM »
Somebody's gotta mention the Nenana Ice Classic.



The following is from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nenana_Ice_Classic
Quote
The Nenana Ice Classic is an annual ice pool contest held in Nenana, Alaska. It is an event in which individuals attempt to guess the exact time the Tanana River ice will break up at Nenana.[1] Tickets are on sale from February 1 through April 5 of each year throughout Alaska. The Nenana Ice Classic is a non-profit charitable gaming organization. As such, the proceeds benefit many volunteer and non-profit organizations.

Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

grixm

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 245
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 154
  • Likes Given: 51
Re: River ice
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2020, 05:41:46 PM »
Meanwhile I've been following the Yenisei river on worldview, and the melt is well underway. Here is a timelapse of the last two weeks.

oren

  • Moderator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5209
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1451
  • Likes Given: 1475
Re: River ice
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2020, 07:17:30 PM »
Nice animation. For some reason only worked for me when I right-clicked open image in new tab.
Consider optimizing it in Ezgif and/or making it artificially wider at 701 pixels so it will require clicking to play.

Niall Dollard

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 679
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 252
  • Likes Given: 54
Re: River ice
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2020, 12:36:23 AM »
Various observation reports on river ice in Alaska can be viewed at this site. Updates each day.

https://www.weather.gov/aprfc/riverNotes

Niall Dollard

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 679
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 252
  • Likes Given: 54
Re: River ice
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2020, 01:14:34 AM »
Riding an ice floe on the River Tom (River Ob tributary) in SW Siberia.


Freegrass

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 738
  • Envy is the thief of joy
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 286
  • Likes Given: 355
Re: River ice
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2020, 01:24:04 AM »
Riding an ice floe on the River Tom (River Ob tributary) in SW Siberia.
That's insane...  ;D
How do they get off?
Great minds discuss ideas
Average minds discuss events
Small minds discuss people

Niall Dollard

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 679
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 252
  • Likes Given: 54
Re: River ice
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2020, 01:27:47 AM »
Riding an ice floe on the River Tom (River Ob tributary) in SW Siberia.
That's insane...  ;D
How do they get off?

More here :

Author of the video Alexander told The Siberian Times that he went outside as soon as he saw that ice on River Tom started to move. 

'We always go out to enjoy the sight of the ice breaking and beginning to move. Riding on ice floes is a typical kind of fun for our children and teens.

'They do it every year. They get bored in quarantine, not everyone has a computer.

'I saw these guys jumping off that ice floe safely and walking away to find a new one

Aluminium

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 578
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 475
  • Likes Given: 339
Re: River ice
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2020, 01:39:27 PM »
A webcam is located near the Lena River in Ust-Kut.
A week after first movement, more floes go to the Arctic. Water level rises observably last hours.

Aluminium

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 578
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 475
  • Likes Given: 339
Re: River ice
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2020, 09:48:19 PM »
Data. :)

The Lena River and the Arctic, 1999-2019. Trends:
Maximum discharge = MDt = 111200 + 916 * (year - 2000), m3/s.
Time of maximum discharge = TMDt = 5.7 - 0.28 * (year - 2000), days of June.
Minimum sea ice extent = MinSIEt = 5.86 - 0.107 * (year - 2000), millions km2.

I removed linear trends and took anomalies for a graph.

X = 0.0000077 * MDa + 0.06173 * TMDa
Y = MinSIEa

Maximum discharge happens with ice flow usually. The river accumulates this power to break ice jams.

Aluminium

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 578
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 475
  • Likes Given: 339
Re: River ice
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2020, 10:54:47 AM »
The Yenisei River, 1999-2019. Trends:
MDt = 134700 - 1998 * (year - 2000), m3/s.
TMDt = -0.2 + 0.16 * (year - 2000), days of June.

Graph:
X = 0.0000174 * MDa + 0.03165 * TMDa
Y = MinSIEa
« Last Edit: April 23, 2020, 11:20:39 AM by Aluminium »

Aluminium

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 578
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 475
  • Likes Given: 339
Re: River ice
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2020, 08:43:12 PM »
I repeated these calculations using sum of maximum discharges and weighted average time.

Lena+Yenisei. Trends:
MDt = 245900 - 1082 (year - 2000), m3/s.
TMDt = 2.4 - 0.03 * (year - 2000), days of June.

Graph:
X = 0.00001 * MDa + 0.0713 * TMDa
Y = MinSIEa

The maximum deviation is 2 times less than from a simple linear trend. Early and low maximum discharge in big rivers is probably a sign of strong melting season. 10000 m3/s or 1.4 days is equivalent to 100000 km2 by September.

Niall Dollard

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 679
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 252
  • Likes Given: 54
Re: River ice
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2020, 02:20:43 PM »
The Nenana Ice Classic Tripod has fallen over.

I doubt if the clock is stopped yet, however.


Aluminium

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 578
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 475
  • Likes Given: 339
Re: River ice
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2020, 12:36:52 PM »
Where is ice?

Ranman99

  • New ice
  • Posts: 37
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 11
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: River ice
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2020, 12:49:21 PM »
Wow and very clear after the clock stopped. It will be interesting to see what comes through in the next days.
Randy Fitton

grixm

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 245
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 154
  • Likes Given: 51
Re: River ice
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2020, 10:16:43 AM »
Yenisei river melt is really ramping up. At this pace it will be free of ice all the way to the arctic ocean in less than two weeks. Gif is the last four days.


Aluminium

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 578
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 475
  • Likes Given: 339
Re: River ice
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2020, 03:27:07 PM »
Wow. It's exceptionally early. In 2019 there was more ice 3 weeks later.

Aluminium

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 578
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 475
  • Likes Given: 339
Re: River ice
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2020, 10:14:42 PM »
The Yenisei River, Turukhansk, 2020. April was the warmest in 150 years of observations, 10.1°С above normal.


Aluminium

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 578
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 475
  • Likes Given: 339
Re: River ice
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2020, 03:29:29 PM »
A nuclear-powered icebreaker near Dudinka. It's an usual work to prevent ice jams and floods in vulnerable places.


Aluminium

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 578
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 475
  • Likes Given: 339
Re: River ice
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2020, 02:11:02 PM »
The Lena River, Olyokminsk. Current melting is slightly earlier than in 2019. The Yenisei River stuck for a while but the earliest breakup in Dudinka is still possible (before May 21).



There is a statue of the Lena in Olyokminsk.

Niall Dollard

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 679
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 252
  • Likes Given: 54
Re: River ice
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2020, 12:25:01 AM »
Thawing of the Lake Ice on Lake Baikal can be a slow process, however this year the end came pretty fast.

Two Worldview images, a week apart, show nearly all the ice gone now.

gerontocrat

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 8102
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2819
  • Likes Given: 24
Re: River ice
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2020, 03:51:05 PM »
Remaining Snow Water Equivalent (SWE) in Eurasia is still at least 700 GT (more than double) above average, most of which will end up in the next few weeks in the Arctic Ocean. That's a lot of water, sediment, organic matter etc.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Aluminium

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 578
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 475
  • Likes Given: 339
Re: River ice
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2020, 04:23:15 PM »
Is this anomaly for the Arctic Ocean? A big part is located on the Tibetan Plateau and Kamchatka Peninsula. A lot of red color in Siberia and northern Alaska at the same time.

gerontocrat

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 8102
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2819
  • Likes Given: 24
Re: River ice
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2020, 08:38:06 PM »
Is this anomaly for the Arctic Ocean? A big part is located on the Tibetan Plateau and Kamchatka Peninsula. A lot of red color in Siberia and northern Alaska at the same time.

The 700 GT excess snow refers to snow on land in Europe & Asia, which I think includes the Tibetan Plateau - but in previous years that big blue blob did not disappear from the snowmap at the end of August. Which is why I said most of the excess over & above the normal amount would end up in the Arctic ocean.

"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

oren

  • Moderator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5209
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1451
  • Likes Given: 1475
Re: River ice
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2020, 09:13:39 PM »
Eyeballing the chart it looks more like an excess of 500GT above normal. Some of the blues and purples are in Baltic drainage and in Pacific drainage. There's also a respectable amount destined for Hudson Bay drainage, supposedly this is the Arctic but in reality the effect is very different. In addition, some of the excess will sublimate or turn to vapor after melting. Some will drain into the ground. So I would hazard a very rough guess that 200-300GT will be the excess flow into the Arctic ocean.
I wonder if this can be quantified by looking at flow data of the major Arctic rivers, and their annual variability compared to SWE variability. I once posed this as a challenge to bbr when he was running wild with the repeat Younger Dryas theory, but he did not rise to the task.
If anyone is aware of downloadable flow data for some or all relevant rivers, I would appreciate any pointers.

Freegrass

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 738
  • Envy is the thief of joy
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 286
  • Likes Given: 355
Re: River ice
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2020, 09:26:39 PM »
If anyone is aware of downloadable flow data for some or all relevant rivers, I would appreciate any pointers.
I googled what I put in bold, and this came up. I hope that's what you were looking for.

https://cds.climate.copernicus.eu/cdsapp#!/dataset/cems-glofas-historical?tab=overview

Quote
This dataset contains global modelled daily data of river discharge from the Global Flood Awareness System (GloFAS), which is part of the Copernicus Emergency Management Service (CEMS). River discharge, or river flow as it is also known, is defined as the amount of water that flows through a river section at a given time.

This dataset is simulated by forcing the hydrological river routing model with modelled gridded runoff data from global reanalysis. Data availability for the historical simulation is from 1979-01-01 up to near real time.

The land surface model that produced the runoff was HTESSEL, and the river routing model component was LISFLOOD, run with a 0.1 x 0.1 degree lat-lon resolution.

More details about the products are given in the Documentation section.
Great minds discuss ideas
Average minds discuss events
Small minds discuss people

Aluminium

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 578
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 475
  • Likes Given: 339
Re: River ice
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2020, 09:28:45 PM »
If anyone is aware of downloadable flow data for some or all relevant rivers, I would appreciate any pointers.
I used this to check correlations with SIE in September.
Data. :)

grixm

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 245
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 154
  • Likes Given: 51
Re: River ice
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2020, 10:08:08 AM »
After a few days of apparent stalling, the Yenisei river melt is accelerating again, and today we got a very clear picture. Spots of open water is reaching all the way to Dudinka.


oren

  • Moderator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5209
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1451
  • Likes Given: 1475
Re: River ice
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2020, 07:37:05 PM »
Big thanks for both river discharge data sources.
And another question to the esteemed posters: Where can I find downloadable SWE numbers? Preferably detailed by regions.

gerontocrat

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 8102
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2819
  • Likes Given: 24
Re: River ice
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2020, 09:08:48 PM »
I think you might get somewhere @ https://land.copernicus.eu/global/products/swe

You will need to register with Copernicus - not a hard task.

Then you will need to figure out how to get the data. I was tired, I gave up.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Aluminium

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 578
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 475
  • Likes Given: 339
Re: River ice
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2020, 10:00:01 PM »
A movement of ice in Dudinka. The biggest Arctic river finally wakes up there. Breakup is expected in 1-2 days.

oren

  • Moderator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5209
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1451
  • Likes Given: 1475
Re: River ice
« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2020, 10:14:10 PM »
Thanks G., I already registered for Copernicus to download the river discharge data, which is taking ages. Will look for their SWE data as well.

Freegrass

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 738
  • Envy is the thief of joy
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 286
  • Likes Given: 355
Re: River ice
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2020, 10:52:08 PM »
Thanks G., I already registered for Copernicus to download the river discharge data, which is taking ages. Will look for their SWE data as well.
I'm happy you were able to find the data Oren! I just saw that this data is stored on the computers of VITO, a Flemish research organisation, and we've got good internet here in Belgium! So I'm surprised the download is taking a long time. Is it that much? Or just slow?
Great minds discuss ideas
Average minds discuss events
Small minds discuss people

oren

  • Moderator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5209
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1451
  • Likes Given: 1475
Re: River ice
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2020, 02:59:08 AM »
It requires several hours processing by Copernicus before the download link is ready.
It is about 1.2GB of data per year.
Effectively you are only allowed to select up to 5 years.
The 6GB file took 3 hours just for the actual download, which I guess is limited at the source.
But never mind, as long as the data is there.

Freegrass

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 738
  • Envy is the thief of joy
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 286
  • Likes Given: 355
Re: River ice
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2020, 03:06:39 AM »
That's a whole lot of data...  :o
Great minds discuss ideas
Average minds discuss events
Small minds discuss people

oren

  • Moderator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5209
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1451
  • Likes Given: 1475
Re: River ice
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2020, 04:53:18 AM »
Turns out to have been a huge overkill. A gridded NetCDF file for every single day, which I can't use, lacking the tools and the processing power.
The SWE data is the same, a large gridded file for each single day.

All I want is one number - total discharge - per day for each of the Arctic rivers. It's available in the other data source in exactly the right format, but a lot of the days are missing for some reason. Maybe I'll use that anyway, with some interpolation.
As to the SWE data, I'm looking for total SWE per region / drainage basin over time. Will keep on looking.

Freegrass

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 738
  • Envy is the thief of joy
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 286
  • Likes Given: 355
Re: River ice
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2020, 05:07:02 AM »
Turns out to have been a huge overkill. A gridded NetCDF file for every single day, which I can't use, lacking the tools and the processing power.
The SWE data is the same, a large gridded file for each single day.

All I want is one number - total discharge - per day for each of the Arctic rivers. It's available in the other data source in exactly the right format, but a lot of the days are missing for some reason. Maybe I'll use that anyway, with some interpolation.
As to the SWE data, I'm looking for total SWE per region / drainage basin over time. Will keep on looking.
That's a bummer... Have you gone through the search results on Google to see if you can find something there? That's how I was able to find that Copernicus link. Maybe you can find other websites in those results that have what you need?

Or you could write an email to VITO or Copernicus to ask them if they know where you can find what you are looking for? That would only take a few minutes, and I'm sure they'll help you if they can.


Edit: That first result in the google search results has a few links that should work.

Quote
Can anyone tell me of a free portal to download river discharge data?
I need time series river discharge data for rainfall runoff modelling. If I can get the location of those stations as long-lat it would be more helpful.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 05:13:01 AM by Freegrass »
Great minds discuss ideas
Average minds discuss events
Small minds discuss people

Aluminium

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 578
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 475
  • Likes Given: 339
Re: River ice
« Reply #43 on: May 15, 2020, 11:47:10 PM »
The Siege of the North, May 15. The Yenisei River broke up ice in Dudinka. 21 days earlier compared to 2019. 6 days earlier than ever. Broken ice retreats to the Arctic Ocean. This reinforcement is not huge but it still requires energy to melt and keeps water cold. Sometimes the river delivered high quality 1.5...2 meter thick ice. 10+ meter high mountains was built and destroyed and built again in just seconds. This year the ice looks much thinner.


Aluminium

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 578
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 475
  • Likes Given: 339
Re: River ice
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2020, 11:47:38 AM »
2019.05.23 - 2020.05.19, the Lena River near the delta.

blumenkraft

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3907
  • Fans of Hans Ø Club - circa 2018
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1361
  • Likes Given: 2139
Re: River ice
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2020, 12:08:44 PM »
Apropos Lena River, Rammb-Slider having a nice cloud-free picture today. Compared it with an image from the 14th.

The darker the blue, the wetter the ice/snow.
CEO of bitcoin & Antifa

Aluminium

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 578
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 475
  • Likes Given: 339
Re: River ice
« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2020, 01:37:28 PM »
May 18-21, active movement in the Lena River near the Arctic Circle. North is down.

blumenkraft

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3907
  • Fans of Hans Ø Club - circa 2018
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1361
  • Likes Given: 2139
Re: River ice
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2020, 01:30:23 PM »
Lena River.
CEO of bitcoin & Antifa

Aluminium

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 578
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 475
  • Likes Given: 339
Re: River ice
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2020, 02:57:00 PM »
How it looks from eye level. Ice floes on the bank of the Lena River after flood.

https://ru-ru.facebook.com/topyktru/videos/547884109237260/
« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 03:02:21 PM by Aluminium »

oren

  • Moderator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5209
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1451
  • Likes Given: 1475
Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2020, 04:09:03 AM »
Some Lena information. Water level in Kusur, about 200km upstream of the Arctic Ocean, have risen sharply in the last few days. I do not have data to compare it with other years. As can be seen, serious discharge usually starts in June.




One of our Russian-reading users could perhaps crack this website to find if there is more information on current discharge and temperatures, and comparison with other years.
http://gis.vodinfo.ru/