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Author Topic: River ice and Discharge  (Read 6367 times)

Aluminium

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2020, 11:01:05 AM »
I did not find way but saved one graph in 2019.

Another source shows graphs for 2017-2020, 13-years average, min and max.

+10 metres in one day. It sounds dangerous.

gerontocrat

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2020, 02:11:49 PM »
I did not find way but saved one graph in 2019.

Another source shows graphs for 2017-2020, 13-years average, min and max.

+10 metres in one day. It sounds dangerous.
And is normal!

That site (e.g. https://allrivers.info/gauge/lena-gms-dzhardzhan )  is magic. I access using google. Google asks me if I want to translate. I click English, then on each page I access after a few seconds the english arrives.

Just had a quick look, but could get lost in it for hours. e.g. first iage.

And attached is some graphed flow data from an old science paper (2006)
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paolo

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2020, 02:41:14 PM »
Gerontocrat,
No translation, but clicking around...
It seems to me that this year is exceptional, below the picture with the years 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019 and 2020 ...

paolo

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #53 on: May 27, 2020, 09:38:24 AM »
update

grixm

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #54 on: May 27, 2020, 12:23:57 PM »
The ice in the Gulf of Ob seems to have shattered, meaning that essentially the Ob river is free flowing all the way to the arctic ocean.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 12:36:34 PM by grixm »

Aluminium

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #55 on: May 27, 2020, 01:13:48 PM »
allrivers.info shows current water temperature sometimes. For example, a station in the Lena delta got 0.2°C. 1.5°C was in Karaul (north of Dudinka). 2.0°C was in Chersky (on the Kolyma River).

blumenkraft

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #56 on: May 28, 2020, 09:17:31 PM »
Lena Delta

Jim Hunt

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #57 on: May 29, 2020, 11:06:32 AM »
Lena Delta

How did it manage that?

I've waiting for the clouds to clear on WorldView for days without any luck :(
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blumenkraft

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #58 on: May 29, 2020, 12:40:37 PM »
Well, since Sentinel 2 is so damn hi-res, even a small hole in the clouds can give you a good peek, Jim. ;)

Aluminium

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #59 on: May 29, 2020, 11:20:11 PM »
Water level reached 2622 cm in Kyusyur. It's not too far from the highest in 13 years. 2803 cm was in 2014 with daily discharge 173000 m3/s.

Aluminium

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #60 on: May 31, 2020, 11:34:39 PM »
2789 cm. Ice Queen of rivers is just 14 cm below the highest level in 13 years.

uniquorn

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #61 on: June 03, 2020, 09:58:40 AM »
Probably ridging near the ice edge preventing most surface meltwater reaching the sea. One arc of meltwater to the west looks like it is refreezing as it reaches the ice edge. Does meltwater pass under the ice as well? According to Hugh French in 'The Periglacial Environment', yes. Not sure whether that applies to that area of the delta though.
edit: took the coastline out to make it easier to see which parts of the delta have melted.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 03:58:51 PM by uniquorn »

Aluminium

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #62 on: June 03, 2020, 03:17:07 PM »
May 24 - June 3. Dry land near the delta is flooded with river ice.

oren

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #63 on: June 03, 2020, 09:27:27 PM »
For some reason the gif is not playing for me.

Aluminium

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #64 on: June 03, 2020, 10:27:13 PM »
For some reason the gif is not playing for me.
I have no idea why. Sometimes I need to download an attached image manually and open it.

oren

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #65 on: June 03, 2020, 10:44:31 PM »
It does work in Chrome but not in MS Edge. Whatever...

grixm

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2020, 11:44:33 AM »
Not that it mattered much at this point, but the final ice of the Yenisei Gulf has broken up, meaning that there is free surface flow in the entire Yenisei river into the ocean.

blumenkraft

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #67 on: June 05, 2020, 01:58:27 PM »
Lena Delta (middle), 2019 vs. 2020

JayW

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #68 on: June 12, 2020, 11:12:31 AM »
Shortwave infrared bands on VIIRS shows the Lena river is now flowing into the Laptev, albeit in one little spot.

Contrast boosted for detail, click to run.
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blumenkraft

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #69 on: June 12, 2020, 11:38:00 AM »
Wow, that's amazing! Great job spotting it, Jay!

grixm

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #70 on: June 12, 2020, 02:19:42 PM »
You can see it clearly on worldview too:

binntho

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #71 on: June 13, 2020, 06:57:39 AM »
Perhaps the most interesting aspect of this discharge is the strong current along the coast - could it be wind driven?

EDIT: Having taken a closer look, it's clear that the current is to the west at beginning, but reversing towards the end of the animation. Could this be tidal movement?  :-X
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JayW

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #72 on: June 13, 2020, 01:12:14 PM »
Perhaps the most interesting aspect of this discharge is the strong current along the coast - could it be wind driven?

EDIT: Having taken a closer look, it's clear that the current is to the west at beginning, but reversing towards the end of the animation. Could this be tidal movement?  :-X
As soon as we have consecutive cloud free days in the area, I'll post a loop.  I'm not sure the animation I posted is long enough to be too sure.
  Initial thoughts would be ocean driven current that's modulated by tides.  Not sure there's quite enough open water for wind driven currents yet,  but I can't say with any certainty.
Edit: having said that,  a westerly wind at the ice edge there could be creating this effect.  I won't speculate further until we see more of it.
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JayW

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2020, 09:13:23 AM »
Edit: forgot to say it's the Lena river delta, in case it wasn't clear.
Roughly 84 hour loop.  Contrast boosted.  I'll speculate further.  Looks to me like the ocean current is the main driver, especially with more ice cover.  I do see what looks like a small tidal influence, but it's not driving things.  However as the ice melts and/or gets pushed out, the winds are playing an increasing role.  As theopen water expands, I'll zoom out to see how the water is spreading into the Laptev.  One last note, and this is highly speculative, but the sediment rich water spilling out appears to warm with the heating of the sun.

Click to animate.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 09:54:51 AM by JayW »
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oren

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2020, 09:41:32 AM »
JayW - this animation is simply amazing. Thanks.

binntho

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #75 on: June 20, 2020, 01:35:48 PM »
JayW - this animation is simply amazing. Thanks.
Second that!
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
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Phoenix

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Re: The 2020 melting season
« Reply #76 on: July 19, 2020, 08:43:31 PM »
Attaching a research paper regarding the delayed July 2012 release of the Mackenzie River contents. A very influential event in the 2012 record which 2020 is chasing.

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/2013GL058956
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 09:10:20 PM by oren »

oren

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #77 on: November 09, 2020, 02:45:24 AM »
Cross-posting a very interesting paper from the freezing season thread.

It is complicated.

https://hess.copernicus.org/preprints/hess-2016-254/hess-2016-254.pdf

Enjoy...

The water temperature characteristics of the Lena River at basin
outlet in the summer period

oren

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #78 on: November 09, 2020, 03:54:35 AM »
Water temps at the head of the delta are quite high. During peak discharge (end-May to early June) temps are around 5C, and later in the season temps reach 10C and beyond. As the paper notes water temps are correlated with air temps, so one can only imagine the values reached this year during the Siberian heat wave. Thus it is no wonder that river discharge plays a significant role in sea ice melting.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 04:01:01 AM by oren »

Glen Koehler

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #79 on: November 09, 2020, 05:13:17 AM »
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339766641_Wind-Driven_Coastal_Upwelling_Near_Large_River_Deltas_in_the_Laptev_and_East-Siberian_Seas

“The Lena, Kolyma, and Indigirka rivers are among the largest rivers that inflow to the Arctic Ocean. Their discharges form a freshened surface water mass over a wide area in the Laptev and East-Siberian seas and govern many local physical, geochemical, and biological processes. In this study we report coastal upwelling events that are regularly manifested on satellite imagery by increased sea surface turbidity and decreased sea surface temperature at certain areas adjacent to the Lena Delta in the Laptev Sea and the Kolyma and Indigirka deltas in the East-Siberian Sea. These events are formed under strong easterly and southeasterly wind forcing and are estimated to occur during up to 10%–30% of ice-free periods at the study region. Coastal upwelling events induce intense mixing of the Lena, Kolyma, and Indigirka plumes with subjacent saline sea. These plumes are significantly transformed and diluted while spreading over the upwelling areas; therefore, their salinity and depths abruptly increase, while stratification abruptly decreases in the vicinity of their sources. This feature strongly affects the structure of the freshened surface layer during ice-free periods and, therefore, influences circulation, ice formation, and many other processes at the Laptev and East-Siberian seas.”
    There was another 2020 journal article 'somewhere' (maybe not ASIF) that discussed Siberian river heat discharge warming the Arctic Ocean.  I've tried finding that other article without success.  A link to it would be much appreciated. 
« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 06:57:38 AM by Glen Koehler »

vox_mundi

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #80 on: November 09, 2020, 10:30:43 AM »
A new study shows that increased heat from Arctic rivers is melting sea ice in the Arctic Ocean and warming the atmosphere.

According to the research, major Arctic rivers contribute significantly more heat to the Arctic Ocean than they did in 1980. River heat is responsible for up to 10% of the total sea ice loss that occurred from 1980 to 2015 over the shelf region of the Arctic Ocean. That melt is equivalent to about 120,000 square miles of 1-meter thick ice.

Rivers have the greatest impact during spring breakup. The warming water dumps into the ice-covered Arctic Ocean and spreads below the ice, decaying it. Once the sea ice melts, the warm water begins heating the atmosphere.

The research found that much more river heat energy enters the atmosphere than melts ice or heats the ocean. Since air is mobile, this means river heat can affect areas of the Arctic far from river deltas.


This diagram shows the relative amount of warming caused by Arctic rivers, with the sources of heat in orange and the heat sinks in turquoise. In spring, rivers flow into the Arctic Ocean, warming the water and melting sea ice, which in turn warms the atmosphere. A feedback occurs as the reflective ice disappears, allowing the dark ocean water to absorb more heat and melt more sea ice. Credit: Graphic adapted from Science Advances paper

The impacts were most pronounced in the Siberian Arctic, where several large rivers flow onto the relatively shallow shelf region extending nearly 1,000 miles offshore. Canada's Mackenzie River is the only river large enough to contribute substantially to sea ice melt near Alaska, but the state's smaller rivers are also a source of heat.

Increasing riverine heat influx triggers Arctic sea ice decline and oceanic and atmospheric warming, Science Advances (2020).
https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/45/eabc4699
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Glen Koehler

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Re: River ice and Discharge
« Reply #81 on: November 09, 2020, 07:17:08 PM »
    Thanks vox!  Not just for the info but also relieving an annoying mental itch.  I searched everywhere using "Lena".  I should have used Mackenzie.