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Freegrass

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The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« on: April 14, 2020, 08:58:11 PM »
As an amateur scientist, with a lot to learn, I was sometimes asking questions about the Arctic that weren't always on-topic. This wasn't much appreciated by the other members. And so I'm creating this thread now for people like me who like to discuss the arctic, but don't always have all the knowledge to do so. Enjoy!
« Last Edit: April 14, 2020, 09:09:21 PM by Freegrass »
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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2020, 02:11:41 AM »
If you want to discuss general Arctic issues or follow up discussions from other threads without running the risk of going off-topic, this may be the right thread.

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2020, 11:38:43 AM »
I love Chicken! So let's start off this new thread with my chicken... That discussion just got interesting thanks to GrauerMausling.

You move discussions by clicking on the "Quote" button Grauer, and then you just copy and past that entire message. Like this. (I edited your message a little. Let's try to keep it friendly!)

In Siberia, the snow can't just "disappear" unless it blows far enough south to simply melt. But average precipitation is very low in many areas, as low as 150 mm per year, so it is easy for me to visualize a tundra where every bump, hillock and tuft of grass is mostly free of snow, with a few centimetres lying in between.
Sublimation can be pretty effective in the Siberian and Arctic winter too .. b.c.
CHICKEN! And more particularly; The chicken fillet that I left for too long in the freezer. When I open the plastic container, the chicken will be all dried out, and the moisture from the chicken will be stuck on the sides of the container in beautiful crystals. So basically the chicken freezedries, and for some reason that ice moves from the chicken to the container, without wind.

My understanding of this was that  the water is squeezed out of the chicken because ice expands. But I'm sure that some of that is some form of sublimation?

Quote
Can't sublimate without the heat

Without the addition of energy (heat) to the process, ice would not sublimate into vapor. That is where sunlight plays a large role in the natural world. Water has a physical property called the "heat of vaporization," which is the amount of heat required to vaporize water. If you want an exact amount of heat, the heat of vaporization of water is 540 calories/gram, or 2,260 kilojoules/kilogram. That is a lot more energy than is needed to convert water to ice (the latent heat of fusion), which is 80 calories/gram. And, it is also about five times the energy needed for heating water from the freezing point to the boiling point. In summary, energy is needed for the sublimation of ice to vapor to occur, and most of the energy is needed in the vaporization phase. A cubic centimeter (1 gram) of water in ice form requires 80 calories to melt, 100 calories to rise to boiling point, and another 540 calories to vaporize, a total of 720 calories. Sublimation requires the same energy input, but bypasses the liquid phase.

https://www.usgs.gov/special-topic/water-science-school/science/sublimation-and-water-cycle?qt-science_center_objects=0#qt-science_center_objects

There's no sun in my freezer...  :-\

I need to do a lot more research on this, and I will! Because this is interesting! Here's how I see it now in my very own simplistic way...

First of all, there is not a lot of moisture in cold air. So yes, the Arctic is a little like a desert. That's what they call Antarctica right? A desert?

The moisture that does get in, turns into very small ice crystals. I need to forget about snow in Europe. That is "wet and sticky snow". Ice crystals in the Arctic are totally different. Much smaller, and they won't make a sticky snow layer like I know from European snow, right?

So what we got here are small crystals that will be picked up easily by the wind, and get transported over long distances. Some of this "snow dust" might actually go back up into the atmosphere and jetstream I presume?

And when they are blown back into the air, those crystals bang together and become even smaller, and lighter?

I'm understanding now why that scale was in centimeters. I also understand now that I'm reminded that conventional thinking doesn't always apply in the Arctic...

I'll definitely be studying more on this! I love the weirdness of nature...  ;D

Thank you!

Sorry, I don't know how to quote properly when moving to a new thread

/Quote

Quote from: blumenkraft on April 14, 2020, 09:27:43 AM

    The ice crystals on your chicken emerge due to you opening the freezer door once in a while and letting warm moist air in which then freezes when you close the door. I think this is another phenomenon, Freegrass.

No, that's something else. That doesn't explain why my chicken in a sealed container is drying out. The ice crystals in the closed container do come from the chicken, not from opening the door and letting moisture in.

/ Unquote

The answer from Blumenkraft is of course rubbish not correct as you were talking about a closed container where your chicken is in. So there is no vapor from the outside. And honestly I also think that the problem is quite relevant for the arctic but I moved it here to be on the safe side :-).

What I think is happening:
The partial pressure of ice is still not zero. So the water / ice will sublimate and there will be water vapor in the box with the chicken even in the freezer. Usually in a freezer the temperature rises very slowly until the freezer starts to cool again which will be a lot faster. For the box this means that during the time when the freezer is not cooling the temperatures of the chicken and the box are quite similar and both will loose water at basically the same rate. When the freezer starts to cool again, the walls of the box are colder than the meat - as the cooling is quite fast - and more water vapor will condense on the walls. So, during the time when the temperature rises, both, chicken and container walls loose the ice at roughly the same speed, while during the cooling down the walls gain more ice that the chicken, causing a net move from chicken to the walls.

For the arctic, as the vapor pressure of ice is still quite high close to the freezing temperature, there could by a significant loss if the air is really dry.
Thank you for continuing this! I find it interesting indeed. I already wanted to discuss this more after I was thinking about my chicken again yesterday. I was doing some research on freeze drying, and so what's happening I think is that when you open the freezer door, warm air goes in. After closing the door, the air starts to cool down. This lowers the pressure in the freezer, and a lower pressure is what's needed to freeze-dry my chicken.

And now you just came up with the last part of the answer, why the ice sticks to the container, and not my chicken.

Quote
When the freezer starts to cool again, the walls of the box are colder than the meat - as the cooling is quite fast - and more water vapor will condense on the walls.

I think that "seals" it...  ;) ;D
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Freegrass

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2020, 09:57:48 PM »
What's this? Is that river breaking up already? Or is this caused by wind?

https://go.nasa.gov/2SvO1fI
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Aluminium

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2020, 10:43:34 PM »
This is land by the river.

Freegrass

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2020, 10:59:00 PM »
This is land by the river.
Thanks Aluminium. I wasn't sure if some of that could be water from upstream melting.

This is caused by sublimation I presume?
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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2020, 11:10:07 PM »
I have no idea but see similar thing in previous years a month before the real flood.

Freegrass

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2020, 10:56:42 AM »
This darker area, is that fog?

https://go.nasa.gov/3fG4oQO
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blumenkraft

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2020, 11:00:34 AM »
It could be a low hanging cloud layer. When the RAMMB is catching up i will make a GIF. :)
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Freegrass

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2020, 11:16:04 AM »
It could be a low hanging cloud layer. When the RAMMB is catching up i will make a GIF. :)
Thanks Blum!
At first I thought it was melting, but then I saw more "blur" on the dark side. (is that a song title yet?  ;D )

It's an interesting weather set-up in that area. So if I had to guess, it could be water vapor from positive temperatures on the cold ice? Or because of the temperature difference in between the high and the low system?

Nullschool - Yeay! I finally figured out how to post links correctly ;D
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blumenkraft

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2020, 11:19:12 AM »
"blur" on the dark side[/i]. (is that a song title yet?  ;D )

Yes!

The Dark Side - by Blur

Link >> https://soundcloud.com/user-348050173/the-dark-side-ft-uglyboyprodpremise
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Freegrass

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2020, 11:26:42 AM »
"blur" on the dark side. (is that a song title yet?  ;D )

Yes!

The Dark Side - by Blur

Link >> https://soundcloud.com/user-348050173/the-dark-side-ft-uglyboyprodpremise
Now that's funny... I'm even featuring in it...  ::)
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blumenkraft

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2020, 12:17:08 PM »
I'm even featuring in it...  ::)

Well, that's true for almost every rap song, isn't it?  ;D
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Freegrass

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2020, 12:56:01 PM »
It could be a low hanging cloud layer. When the RAMMB is catching up i will make a GIF. :)
Has the RAMMB caught up yet Blum? I'm still curious to know if that was fog.
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blumenkraft

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2020, 01:36:57 PM »
IDK, you might be right with the fog, FG!

You can see the clouds moving another direction at the end of the GIF.

Here you go! :)

M10 band, click to play (big file).
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Freegrass

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2020, 02:16:35 PM »
Thanks BL! It does seem that way. The fog ends in a giant Pac-Man...  ;D
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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2020, 05:06:58 PM »
Hey FG, check this out.

This is a GIF showing higher clouds casting shadows onto the lower clouds/fog.

Three different bands from the RAMMB-SLIDER.
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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2020, 05:28:04 PM »
I missed this chat .. Friv's orange WV bands gave the game away .. fog .. been watching it on the move for a few days .. b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 
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Freegrass

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2020, 02:03:06 PM »
I missed this chat .. Friv's orange WV bands gave the game away .. fog .. been watching it on the move for a few days .. b.c.
There was a lot of fog last week, and I'm surprised this wasn't talked about on the melting thread. I was hoping for it because I don't know what that does to the ice. Does it work as a blanket to protect the ice? Or does all that moisture change the albedo?
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Freegrass

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2020, 03:23:17 PM »
That extra snow this winter in the arctic, did that insulate the ice more from the deep freeze? Is there less ice volume this spring because of more snow in winter?
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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2020, 04:33:46 PM »
I hadn't noticed more snow this year .. wish A-team was still here to tell the whole story . As the fog/or what ? discussion happened here it missed being debated elsewhere .. the fog certainly reduced solar imput .. and as there seems to have been no wetting of the surface i can only assume temps were held below freezing.. b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 
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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2020, 04:52:25 PM »
A. I don't think there was extra snow, at least I haven't seen numbers supporting this.
B. PIOMAS says volume is higher than last year, especially in the CAB (though that was before the recent Fram export event).

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2020, 04:53:04 PM »
I hadn't noticed more snow this year .. wish A-team was still here to tell the whole story . As the fog/or what ? discussion happened here it missed being debated elsewhere .. the fog certainly reduced solar imput .. and as there seems to have been no wetting of the surface i can only assume temps were held below freezing.. b.c.
Thank you for the reply BC!  :)

I saw this graph from Gerontocrat on the Northern Hemisphere Winter 2019-2020 Snowcover thread and concluded there was more snow in Eurasia. I'm not sure if there was more snow on the CAB though...

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2020, 05:07:37 PM »
A. I don't think there was extra snow, at least I haven't seen numbers supporting this.
B. PIOMAS says volume is higher than last year, especially in the CAB (though that was before the recent Fram export event).
I don't want to start a debate again on the trustworthiness of DMI vs. PIOMAS, but DMI is showing less volume.

I guess that correct measurements for volume - the most important metric for the ice - will remain a problem for a while...

Thank you for helping me to understand the arctic better! :)
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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2020, 05:41:42 PM »
indeed .. the day there is no ice we will know there is no volume and know the most accurate measure .. b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 
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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2020, 12:17:58 AM »
I think this is a dumb question, but...when there is surface melt and the melt ponds then re-freeze, does that ice melt any easier than if it hadn't melted in the first place? Another related question: does the top inch of a .1m block of ice melt easier than the top inch of a 2m block of ice?

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2020, 04:02:45 AM »
when there is surface melt and the melt ponds then re-freeze, does that ice melt any easier than if it hadn't melted in the first place?
Yes. The albedo of powder snow is very high, around 0.85, reflecting most insolation. The albedo of sea ice is lower, around 0.60. The albedo of a refrozen melt pond is yet lower, around 0.50. Therefore most times new melt ponds will form over a refrozen melt pond, rather than in an unmelted patch of snow or ice nearby.
Also check out https://nsidc.org/cryosphere/seaice/processes/albedo.html

Quote
does the top inch of a .1m block of ice melt easier than the top inch of a 2m block of ice?
Good question, that depends, but probably yes. Ice melts when its temp rises to the melting point due to energy from above and below. Thicker ice may have a lower core temp than thinner ice, delaying the process a bit. Thicker ice may also insulate the top layer from the energy supplied by the ocean water below. There are also the issues of albedo, transparency, absorption by seawater and other stuff beyond my pay grade.

Freegrass

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2020, 03:56:25 PM »
How can the 2013 albedo in summer be lower than in spring?

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oren

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2020, 04:37:37 PM »
Because the chart shows the anomaly, compared to the 2000-2019 baseline.

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2020, 04:54:53 PM »
when there is surface melt and the melt ponds then re-freeze, does that ice melt any easier than if it hadn't melted in the first place?
Yes. The albedo of powder snow is very high, around 0.85, reflecting most insolation. The albedo of sea ice is lower, around 0.60. The albedo of a refrozen melt pond is yet lower, around 0.50. Therefore most times new melt ponds will form over a refrozen melt pond, rather than in an unmelted patch of snow or ice nearby.
Also check out https://nsidc.org/cryosphere/seaice/processes/albedo.html

Quote
does the top inch of a .1m block of ice melt easier than the top inch of a 2m block of ice?
Good question, that depends, but probably yes. Ice melts when its temp rises to the melting point due to energy from above and below. Thicker ice may have a lower core temp than thinner ice, delaying the process a bit. Thicker ice may also insulate the top layer from the energy supplied by the ocean water below. There are also the issues of albedo, transparency, absorption by seawater and other stuff beyond my pay grade.

The albedo is the major factor.  If the ice was snow covered, then the albedo will be higher, as you describe.  Melt ponds are easier to melt.

The second question, regarding the top layer of a thicker block of ice, is a little more tenuous.  If it is all first year ice, then it will probably not make much of a difference.  The insulating factor is minimal.  If the thicker ice is older, compaction will have forced out some air, making it much more difficult to melt.  In all likelihood though, the top inch is probably first year ice in both cases, and the energy required to melt it is probably minimal.

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2020, 05:08:44 PM »
Because the chart shows the anomaly, compared to the 2000-2019 baseline.
Oops... Got it! My bad...
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Freegrass

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2020, 08:41:34 PM »
Last year we had a small discussion here about grounding icebergs in the Arctic ocean, because I thought that one got stuck on the seafloor in the ESS.

This year I'm seeing that bottom-fast ice again (bottom right corner), and it's doing something weird. It seems to be blocking a whole lot of ice inbetween it, and another bigger piece of fast ice.

Ocean depth there is around 15 meter according to this GMRT map tool, and I haven't found prove yet that this ice is stuck on an underwater island. Although I do believe that's what it is that this fast ice is stuck to. Maybe someone should take a dive there to update the bathymetry charts?

Anyway...
What do you think is happening here?
« Last Edit: May 19, 2020, 08:48:48 PM by Freegrass »
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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2020, 08:53:13 PM »
Oh, nice find, FG!

Uniquorn has a whole thread for that >> https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2890.msg259247.html#new
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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2020, 09:00:59 PM »
This year I'm seeing that bottom-fast ice again (bottom right corner), and it's doing something weird. It seems to be blocking a whole lot of ice inbetween it, and another bigger piece of fast ice.
Good catch, freegrass. Something identical happens around B-22A NW of Thwaites Ice Tongue in Amundsen Sea, West Antarctica all the time. Some little icebergs ground and block the escapeway into the ocean of many other icebergs. A natural dam, so to say, for some while ... until melting from below starts to be effective or violent storms come across.
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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2020, 09:06:03 PM »
Oh, nice find, FG!

Uniquorn has a whole thread for that >> https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2890.msg259247.html#new
Thanks Blum, I'll post it there as well.

I noticed it yesterday already, but waited another day to see if that very little piece of ice against that little round piece of BFI would be able to hold that entire icebridge in place. And it seems it was. Quite amazing...  :o
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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2020, 04:36:54 PM »
n.b. .. there are no icebergs grounded or otherwise in the ESS or Laptev . b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 
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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2020, 05:33:37 PM »
What would a substantial rain storm do to the sea ice if a storm were to dump like 1-2 inches of rain??
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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2020, 06:24:06 PM »
n.b. .. there are no icebergs grounded or otherwise in the ESS or Laptev . b.c.

N.B. There might be!

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335978854_The_iceberg_drift_study_near_Severnaya_Zemlya_in_the_spring_of_2018_by_remote_sensing_data

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The movement of icebergs in the Laptev Sea off the coast of the Severnaya Zemlya archipelago in spring of 2018 was analyzed using satellite observations in visible spectral band. As is shown in the article the data of radiometers installed on the Landsat-8 and Sentinel-2 satellites allow monitoring of iceberg drifting in spring period in the above Arctic region. Thus, in March-April 2018, the total amount of icebergs detected near the archipelago was 4917. 4161 icebergs were in the landfast ice, 722 ones were drifting with the ice fields, and the other 32 were aground in ice fields.
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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2020, 07:40:41 PM »
What would a substantial rain storm do to the sea ice if a storm were to dump like 1-2 inches of rain??
These are approximate calculations but assumptions are given.
Rain x conversion metric x weight/volume = weight/area
2 inch x 2.54cm/inch x 1gram/cm3 = 5.08 g/cm2
Pure water 4.184 joules/g C so
Pure water heat of fusion @ 0 C is 334 j/g or j/cm3
Assume water vapor is at 10 C
10C x 4.184 j/g C x 5.08 g/cm2 x 1/334 cm3/j =0.6364 cm melted ice or 0.2505 inches melted ice

That does not include the energy added to the air when water vaper condenses to water. Not all heat energy in air transfers to ice. If it did transfer this is the calculation
Heat of vaporization of pure water is 2257 j/g
5.08 g/cm2 x 2257 j/g x 1/334 cm3/j = 34 cm of melted ice or 13.5 inches of melted ice

In total 2 inches of rain provides enough energy to melt 13.75 inches of ice.

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2020, 12:26:02 AM »
lol .. there's no denying I am an amateur .. I stand well corrected Jim .. still ..is there really any there THIS year ? b.c. :)
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 
 (phew)

Freegrass

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2020, 04:46:16 PM »
Why do high pressure systems keep forming over the beaufort gyre?
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Phoenix

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2020, 05:37:44 PM »
Why do high pressure systems keep forming over the beaufort gyre?

I wish I knew FG.

It's a unique spot in the Arctic in that it's the only place where there's a steep dropoff to a deep basin near the coast. The shape of the gyre mirrors the shape of the deep basin underneath.

I imagine that this time of year, there is a constant temperature gradient between the N. American border and the Beaufort. The air from the land moves over the gyre, cools and shrinks in mass, sinks and makes room for more air to come in above. The increased mass of air in the vertical column is basically the definition of high pressure.

I think the depth of the basin is somehow related to the ability of the gyre to form. But this is really all a guesstimate.... a good spot for someone more knowledgable to come in with a better answer.

There's a potential horror story associated with the gyre. Historically, it loses it spin every 7-8 years and releases a lot of fresh water through the CAA to the Atlantic. It's been over 20 years since that last occurred. The fear is that the next time this happens, it could mess with the AMOC. The gyre has accumulated so much fresh water that it rivals Lake Baikal as the largest fresh water reserve on earth.


Freegrass

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2020, 06:14:59 PM »
Why do high pressure systems keep forming over the beaufort gyre?

I wish I knew FG.

It's a unique spot in the Arctic in that it's the only place where there's a steep dropoff to a deep basin near the coast. The shape of the gyre mirrors the shape of the deep basin underneath.

I imagine that this time of year, there is a constant temperature gradient between the N. American border and the Beaufort. The air from the land moves over the gyre, cools and shrinks in mass, sinks and makes room for more air to come in above. The increased mass of air in the vertical column is basically the definition of high pressure.

I think the depth of the basin is somehow related to the ability of the gyre to form. But this is really all a guesstimate.... a good spot for someone more knowledgable to come in with a better answer.

There's a potential horror story associated with the gyre. Historically, it loses it spin every 7-8 years and releases a lot of fresh water through the CAA to the Atlantic. It's been over 20 years since that last occurred. The fear is that the next time this happens, it could mess with the AMOC. The gyre has accumulated so much fresh water that it rivals Lake Baikal as the largest fresh water reserve on earth.
Good reply Phoenix! You're learning a lot! I think "weather" is too difficult to understand if you're a novice. People have studied it for a gazillion of years, so I look at it and try to interpret it and it's influence on the ice in my own way... But there is no way in hell that I will ever understand it all!  This is just a temporary hobby for me. Something I need to understand a little, just like so many other things in life... So I'll leave the details to the specialists...

But it's fun, isn't? If you call watching a disintegrating world fun that is...  :'(
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Phoenix

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2020, 06:34:58 PM »

But it's fun, isn't? If you call watching a disintegrating world fun that is...  :'(

I wouldn't say I find it fun. It's more like a compelling drama. A cliffhanger in which we have so much at stake and don't know the outcome. Scary and fascinating at the same time.

Some of us need to understand the horror to explain to the sheeple why they need to make changes. Keep asking questions and you'll learn.

Freegrass

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2020, 07:01:01 PM »
Some of us need to understand the horror to explain to the sheeple why they need to make changes.
Exactly! I'm an activist, not a weatherman!
But some here don't get that... So sad...  :'(
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Freegrass

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #45 on: June 02, 2020, 01:04:51 PM »
In June aren't clear skies and forecast warmth just as good as stormy weather to melt out ice?
The sun adds heat to the system. Storms take it away. Because all storms do is they stir up the water, bringing heat to the surface that melts the ice, and vanishes into the atmosphere. Storms add nothing to the energy balance, right?
A storm brings a hell of a lot of warm and wet air from further south. Low-pressure areas form mostly over the N-Atlantic, sometimes as far south as the Gulf region, and flow northwards. They carry massive heat and moisture besides all the kinetic energy that churns the ice up.Sunny skies vs. strong storm is one of the perennial debates on this forum, opinion seems to me to be that the ice can melt just as easily when battered by a strong storm as it can under direct insolation. But perhaps timing is important here also - a storm at the time of maximum insolation in June an July may cause less melt than clear skies, but later in the season I would guess that a good storm can do much more damage than the sun. Besides, the kinetic factor is probably most effective late in the season when there is more open water to whip up into waves, and easier to push the ice around.

Hi Binntho, thanks for the reply! I've moved the discussion here as to not clog up the melting thread. I should probably read this book, but that's way to complicated in the details that'll I'll probably get lost in it and learn nothing...

The reason I think what I think is from what I've learned from hurricanes. They need hot ocean water to feed on, and after they've past, the water is cooler. Right?

Air moves upward in a storm, cools down, loses it's moisture as rain - or snow in the arctic - and then dies. So what falls down from a storm is moisture that was cooled down in the upper atmosphere. Storms suck in heat from the bottom that gets cooled at the top. Am I getting that right?

But yes, they do bring a lot of "energy" from the equator to the poles. Energy that is used to stir up the ocean so that the storm can feed. When you stir up the arctic ocean,  and if the ice is thin enough to break through, the storm can feed on warmer water that was hidden below the surface. But that depends on the season. What storm are doing in spring, is Polynyafication. Yes, that word does not exist, and what a shame... ;D

Storms at this time of the year just destroy the ice so that the ocean can suck up more heat during summer. Storms at the end of the season suck out that heat from the ocean and return it to the atmosphere.

That's how my simple brain understands it.
Did I make sense?
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oren

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #46 on: June 02, 2020, 02:19:44 PM »
In June and July it is obvious to me that clear skies trump everything else, especially if albedo has been lowered by pre-conditioning and snowmelt. In August storms are probably worse, as they stir the warm water and move the ice to places it shouldn't be, but hide a much weaker sun. Severe August storms (GACs) have been known to generate new records.

Neven wrote somewhere in the past that the worst is a series of switches between high pressure (clear, sunny) and low pressure (storms, wind).

Hurricanes are not a good analog for arctic cyclones, warm core vs. cold core or something of the sort, I forget the details, look it up.

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Re: The Arctic for Amateurs and Newbies
« Reply #47 on: June 02, 2020, 02:56:14 PM »
Freegrass, I assume that you are aware of the fact that the Western seaboard of Europe and N.America is much warmer than it should be given their latitude. The standard explanation is that the warm North Atlantic Current and the North Pacific Current respectively keep the Western margins of the continents warmer.

In my understanding, the mechanism by which this happens is by primarily by heat transfer via low pressure areas (storms).

I agree with your assumption that the low pressure areas and storms that form in warmer latitudes will lose their heat when they travel north over colder waters. When they travel over warm currents, the low pressure areas lose less heat than when they travel over "normal" waters. Since due to the coreolis effect, the storm tracks and the currents tend to follow the same east-by-north tracjectory, the two of them together cooperate in transferring southern heat to the northern latitudes.

Basically, when a storm enters the Arctic from the south, it has been prevented from loosing all it's heat by the comparatively warm surface waters of the North Atlantic.

Besides maintining a high temperature due to the warm ocean currents, the stormy winds carry a lot of water in the form of droplets, and their heat capaicity is significantly higher than that of the wind itself. The stronger the storm (effectively, the warmer the ocean area where it was formed), the more precipitable water it will carry. And that makes a very big difference to the ice, making rainy storms from the North Atlantic very efficient carriers of heat into the Arctic.

THe kinetic effect of a storm will be stronger in the latter half of the melting season, when there is more open water, but will never be negligible. But I doubt if the kinetic effect matches the heat effect of a storm at any time, although I may well be wrong.
because a thing is eloquently expressed it should not be taken to be as necessarily true
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