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Author Topic: The American Progressive Movement  (Read 7644 times)

blumenkraft

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2020, 08:22:37 PM »
Bernie's Dream: Strong Third Party Movement in the United States


Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2020, 12:09:56 AM »
Bernie has been a wonderful public servant and he's stuck between a rock and a hard place right now. He can't advocate too strongly for a third party and risk contributing to the re-election of Trump. He thinks his best shot is to go into gadfly mode after the election and that's where his career will likely continue as his power declines.

At this point, it's really hard to see who will emerge to take his place as the leading voice of the American left. There is no obvious choice. But nature abhors a vacuum and the climate / environmental collapse is only growing more urgent.






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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #52 on: May 03, 2020, 03:50:45 AM »
I don't think many US citizens realize US election laws strongly discourage more than two parties unfortunately.

blumenkraft

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2020, 07:19:03 AM »
The winner takes it all only works for corporate America as long as the winner is Dem or Rep.

The Walrus

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #54 on: May 03, 2020, 04:53:43 PM »
I don't think many US citizens realize US election laws strongly discourage more than two parties unfortunately.

I will take the opposite stance on this issue.  Those that makes this claim often point to the decline in third party voting concurrent with changes in election laws.  I believe this is more coincidence than consequence.  Rather, the decline appears to correlate with the leftward shift of the democratic party around the time if the New Deal.  Prior to that, third parties, which were typically leftwing, amassed much higher vote totals than afterwards.  Whenever the Democrat party starts to shift rightward, support for leftish third parties grow.  The Democratic party then sees a potential loss of votes, and swings back to pick up as many of these voters as possible, without losing the more moderate voters.  The only way I envision a true progressive party becoming established in the U.S. would be for the Democratic party to move further towards the center, gobble up as many independent voters as possible, abandoning those on the left.  The void would enable, even encourage, the formation of a new leftwing party.  The current Democratic leaders do not want to see this arise, as it would decrease their chances of election from roughly half down towards one-third (should the party actually achieve prominence).  The Republican party officials would not want this to occur either.  For similar reasons.

One of the laws that does appear to detract from third party votes is straight ticket voting.  Funding may be a greater hurdle than election laws, as both major parties have very deep pockets, and can effectively elbow out stragglers (even within their own parties).

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2020, 08:14:55 AM »
Many of the laws that discourage third parties are far older than that. Think pre 1900 sometime around mid 1800's. While they continue to fiddle with these laws much but not all of it is written into state constitutions. If you think it is more recent why have the democrats and republicans been stable top two parties for well over 150 years? Sometime around the late eighties or early nineties under the guise of reducing corruption in campaign finance a campaign finance reform was undertaken that cemented the parties control of its members. It limited direct dollar contribution to candidates but allowed unlimited donations to the party. Since then the independence of politicians from their party has gradually shrunk to now where most votes are along party lines with few dissenters. While I have no evidence I believe this was a major factor in the increasing control of a small elite that has lead to the extreme inequality we now experience.

The Walrus

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2020, 03:38:15 PM »
Not quite that old.  Third parties made quite a bit of noise in the late 19th and early 20th century.  In the late 1890s, the Populist party gained quite of bit of ground, winning 5 states in the '92 election.  After the '96 election, the party amassed 22 Congressional seats and 5 Senatorial seats.  The majority of the party then merged with the Democratic Party, effectively killing the Populist Party.  In 1912, third-party Progressive candidate Theodore Roosevelt outpolled incumbent president Howard Taft to finish second in the race with 28% of the vote.  The Progressive Party was not as deep as the Populist Party, winning only 9 Congressional seats and 1 Senate seat.  The party did not survive long, as it was gobbled up by the Republican Party.  Election laws had little to with the decline of these parties.  Rather, it was the power and influence of the two major parties that led to the defection of the third-party members to the other two.

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #57 on: May 05, 2020, 12:58:27 AM »
Not quite that old.  Third parties made quite a bit of noise in the late 19th and early 20th century.  In the late 1890s, the Populist party gained quite of bit of ground, winning 5 states in the '92 election.  After the '96 election, the party amassed 22 Congressional seats and 5 Senatorial seats.  The majority of the party then merged with the Democratic Party, effectively killing the Populist Party.  In 1912, third-party Progressive candidate Theodore Roosevelt outpolled incumbent president Howard Taft to finish second in the race with 28% of the vote.  The Progressive Party was not as deep as the Populist Party, winning only 9 Congressional seats and 1 Senate seat.  The party did not survive long, as it was gobbled up by the Republican Party.  Election laws had little to with the decline of these parties.  Rather, it was the power and influence of the two major parties that led to the defection of the third-party members to the other two.

Just a clarification what year is '92 and '96?

The Walrus

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #58 on: May 05, 2020, 03:05:26 AM »
Not quite that old.  Third parties made quite a bit of noise in the late 19th and early 20th century.  In the late 1890s, the Populist party gained quite of bit of ground, winning 5 states in the '92 election.  After the '96 election, the party amassed 22 Congressional seats and 5 Senatorial seats.  The majority of the party then merged with the Democratic Party, effectively killing the Populist Party.  In 1912, third-party Progressive candidate Theodore Roosevelt outpolled incumbent president Howard Taft to finish second in the race with 28% of the vote.  The Progressive Party was not as deep as the Populist Party, winning only 9 Congressional seats and 1 Senate seat.  The party did not survive long, as it was gobbled up by the Republican Party.  Election laws had little to with the decline of these parties.  Rather, it was the power and influence of the two major parties that led to the defection of the third-party members to the other two.

Just a clarification what year is '92 and '96?

1892 and 1896

Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #59 on: May 05, 2020, 05:52:36 AM »
A third party is simply one means to an end. Neoliberalism is collapsing under its own weight as it is producing too many losers and doesn't have a remedy for climate collapse.

If Biden wins, he won't have the buffers that Obama entered office with. Obama and the corporate Democrats played their aces in 2009-10 by choosing to bail out the rich and blocking progressive reforms. The market demand for relief is simply too great to be contained.

IF Covid doesn't create enough leverage, then nature and rising GHG levels will force the change. Something like the Green New Deal is inevitable by the mid 2020's. The IPCC AR6 will be a catalyst.




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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #60 on: May 05, 2020, 08:14:12 AM »
I may have been off about the dates. I am not really a history buff.


Funding is a huge part of the way the ultra rich control politics. Ultimately I would like some mechanism to eliminate or at least substantially reduce the influence of money in US politics, also in other countries but I live in the US. I have suggested banning all money in campaigning in the past. Some objected to that strongly suggesting limited free speech. In some ways it limits speech but in others it allows more dialogue. The 2016 election had 11.4 billion spent on advertising 8.5 billion on TV and 1 billion on internet. Americans get bombarded with these messages until they are just fed up with it. Most of the ads are not informative they provide little actual information and often as not provide disinformation. I still believe the only way to limit the power of ultra rich is to ban political advertising. More public discourse and less top down control.

johnm33

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #61 on: May 05, 2020, 11:42:31 AM »
I guess this is as good as anywhere to post this, Ventura for president? https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2020/05/jesse-ventura-could-pose-a-greater-threat-than-biden-or-the-democrats-believe.html
"OK, I've decided I'm going to test the waters. IF I were going to run for president, the GREEN party would be my first choice. I've endorsed the party and I'm testing the waters." 

The Walrus

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #62 on: May 05, 2020, 02:33:53 PM »
I may have been off about the dates. I am not really a history buff.


Funding is a huge part of the way the ultra rich control politics. Ultimately I would like some mechanism to eliminate or at least substantially reduce the influence of money in US politics, also in other countries but I live in the US. I have suggested banning all money in campaigning in the past. Some objected to that strongly suggesting limited free speech. In some ways it limits speech but in others it allows more dialogue. The 2016 election had 11.4 billion spent on advertising 8.5 billion on TV and 1 billion on internet. Americans get bombarded with these messages until they are just fed up with it. Most of the ads are not informative they provide little actual information and often as not provide disinformation. I still believe the only way to limit the power of ultra rich is to ban political advertising. More public discourse and less top down control.

I would love to see more public discourse and less top down control.  The means to that end is not to limit free speech by banning political advertising.  The problem is the complacency of the average person.  Until the people rise up and demand more dialogue, it is not going to happen.  Town halls are becoming popular, just not popular enough to motivate politicians to a public debate or discussion.  Most would prefer to hide behind the ads.

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #63 on: May 05, 2020, 08:22:50 PM »
Maybe I am dense but as long as the ban is universal I don't really think it limits free speech. It limits the ability of the rich to shove their message down your throat but doesn't stop individuals from from expressing their opinions. Most people can't afford ad buys.

The Walrus

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #64 on: May 05, 2020, 09:15:10 PM »
Maybe I am dense but as long as the ban is universal I don't really think it limits free speech. It limits the ability of the rich to shove their message down your throat but doesn't stop individuals from from expressing their opinions. Most people can't afford ad buys.

I am not a legal expert, but this  paper in the Howard Law Review takes the position to expand, rather than ban this type of election speech.

kassy

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #65 on: May 06, 2020, 12:18:46 AM »
Missing link?
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #67 on: May 06, 2020, 06:31:07 AM »
Walrus my reading of that article any limit placed on anyone is an attempt to level the playing field. This presents two major problems people will find loopholes and this leaves those in power to pick and chose winners and losers.


My claim is that television is overly influential and is only really available to the wealthy. Further it is just a really poor medium for communicating thoughts and ideas. A 30 second ad is too short to inform voters one way or another. All that can be communicated is this idea/politician is bad and this one is good. It is cotton candy all sugar and no nourishment. You don't learn anything really.  You go to the fair and eat a bunch of cotton candy and your stomach is too upset to eat a real meal. People get burned out on politics during election because even though they spend a large amount of time there is no substance too it. Other media isn't perfect either but I have never watched a political add on TV and felt like I was more informed about an issue/candidate. I have read things or listened to things and felt more informed. Banning this media would in my opinion improve public discourse and still allow Free speech. Its not complicated or hard to write clear and concise rule for.  No one is disenfranchised because of it. It doesn't eliminate corruption but I think it would reduce it.

oren

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #68 on: May 06, 2020, 11:52:37 AM »
As long as voters fall for these ads and can't understand the issues at hand, any reform won't do much.

Freegrass

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #69 on: May 06, 2020, 12:03:04 PM »
As long as voters fall for these ads and can't understand the issues at hand, any reform won't do much.
I don't understand why nobody has created a political social network yet with trustworthy polling. An online civilian parliament. I'm sure that'll wake up politicians! And it would also help promote democracy around the world in less fortunate countries.
If every 8 year old in the world is taught meditation, we will eliminate violence from the world within one generation.
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The Walrus

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #70 on: May 06, 2020, 01:53:35 PM »
I disagree that television is only influential towards the wealthy.  I would argue the opposite.  Most people, and I would argue almost all voters, have access to television.  The wealthy and many in the middle class also have access to political communication and ideas beyond the idiot box.  The lower class voters are more likely to rely solely on the 30-second ads. 

I agree with oren.  As long as there exist voters who refuse to delve into the true nature of the candidates, their past histories, and their ideals, nothing we do in regards to these ads will make a difference.  This is not confined to the televised political ads.  Many politicians will repeat certain sound bites, even during debates, that they hope will resonate with the voters. 

Freegrass that would be wonderful.  That would require a truly unbiased organization.  Unfortunately, the most successful networks today are biased in one direction or another. 

Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #71 on: May 08, 2020, 12:07:44 AM »

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #72 on: May 10, 2020, 07:01:37 AM »
I disagree that television is only influential towards the wealthy.  I would argue the opposite.  Most people, and I would argue almost all voters, have access to television.  The wealthy and many in the middle class also have access to political communication and ideas beyond the idiot box.  The lower class voters are more likely to rely solely on the 30-second ads. 

I agree with oren.  As long as there exist voters who refuse to delve into the true nature of the candidates, their past histories, and their ideals, nothing we do in regards to these ads will make a difference.  This is not confined to the televised political ads.  Many politicians will repeat certain sound bites, even during debates, that they hope will resonate with the voters. 

Freegrass that would be wonderful.  That would require a truly unbiased organization.  Unfortunately, the most successful networks today are biased in one direction or another. 
My wording was poor. I mean only the wealthy can afford to use this medium to communicate their opinions. They are less likely to be swayed by ads as they have vested interests. To a limited degree poorer people can pool their money but that is much harder. The wealthy are far less likely to even watch tv on a regular basis.

Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #73 on: May 10, 2020, 10:33:20 AM »
It seems that progressives are coming around to the idea that its better to be opposed to a Biden Administration than have another round of Trump.

Trump is such a transcendent disaster that the lesser evil is becoming downright palatable.

Will be interesting to see how a second Great Depression moves the political football going forward.

Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #74 on: May 12, 2020, 12:37:06 PM »
Bernie announcing the obvious, he probably won't run for POTUS in 2024.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/497136-sanders-says-another-presidential-run-is-very-very-unlikely?fbclid=IwAR3E_WndoVoFd526EWasXcBG5Ek5ufHcgmEE9U9Y6RXh76iahCkS-xxSLiw

So....who might be the progressive standard bearer?

Liz Warren - If she becomes Biden's VP, that would give her a leg up. Heck, whoever he names as VP has a 50/50 shot at becoming POTUS before his term ends if he wins.

AOC - Most recognizable progressive. But she'll be pretty young and inexperienced for the job, I don't think she runs.

Jeff Merkley - The only senator to endorse Bernie in 2016. Merkley, not Warren, is the second most progressive senator. Bernie likes him and would give him his blessing.

Ro Khanna - Democratic congressman from CA. Bernie 2020 campaign co-chair.

Gavin Newsom - CA Governor. Needs to bolster his progressive credentials.

Andrew Yang - He's likable and seems genuine. Defining issue was UBI which is becoming more popular.

Stacey Abrams - Needs to maintain a high profile during the coming years.

It's really wide open. Bernie leaves big shoes to fill. Some people who wouldn't be considered very progressive like Pete Buttigieg or Kamala Harris might try and reposition themselves further left, but i have a hard time envisioning them being embraced. Buttigieg is a likely establishment favorite for the future.

Nature abhors a vacuum. There's a big demand for someone to step up.


The Walrus

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #75 on: May 12, 2020, 03:14:30 PM »
Phoenix,

I could argue for or against any of those names.  Merkley would be my top candidate from that list.  Although, my gut feeling is that someone new will step up.

Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #76 on: May 12, 2020, 05:26:42 PM »
Merkley would be my top choice as well.

Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #77 on: May 13, 2020, 07:27:35 PM »
This article speaks to the six working groups set up by Sanders and Biden to help Biden iterate to more progressive policies.

For example AOC is co-chair of the climate working group along with John Kerry.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/12/politics/ocasio-cortez-biden-campaign-task-force-climate-change/index.html

<removed tracking code from link - BK>
« Last Edit: May 13, 2020, 07:33:30 PM by blumenkraft »

Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #78 on: May 13, 2020, 07:53:41 PM »
More on the task forces.

Give Biden's team at least a little credit here. Clinton's team made no such overtures to progressives in 2016.

https://www.npr.org/2020/05/13/855203151/biden-and-sanders-announce-task-forces-to-find-party-unity-over-policy

blumenkraft

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #79 on: May 13, 2020, 08:21:47 PM »
Give Biden's team at least a little credit here.

I will when it manifests in actual policies. Not a second before.

Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #80 on: May 13, 2020, 11:50:44 PM »
Give Biden's team at least a little credit here.

I will when it manifests in actual policies. Not a second before.

I am crediting the political acumen of Biden and his inner circle, which in this case includes Obama. They at least have the political good sense to pretend to value progressives. You can trust that progressives are not holding their breath regarding Biden's intentions. We plan on being in opposition mode the day after the election.

wili

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #81 on: May 14, 2020, 12:17:25 AM »
Cornel West gives a far from resounding 'endorsement' of Biden here starting at about minute 35 with other reflections on the moment at hand here:

https://www.npr.org/podcasts/381444253/pri-the-takeaway

The specifically Biden stuff starts at about minute 41.

"'Endorse' might be too strong a word, my dear sister...I consider myself a part of an antifacist coalition against the gangster in the WH, and the question is, how do we get him out before the democratic experiment completely runs out.

I consider my dear brother, Joe Biden, a mediocre, milquetoast neoliberal, responsible for ... the largest, most vicious prison system in the world. That's what those crime bills going from the '80's and 90's did, and he bragged about it up until a few years ago.

I consider his support of the invasion and occupations of Iraq a crime against humanity...

I consider him supporting Wall Street greed...

It's hard for me to say I'm endorsing a mediocre, milquetoast neoliberal like Joe Biden.

No, I'm calling on us to kinda hold our noses and vote...even though he's no friend of working people, he's no friend to poor people, but at this point he seems to be the only thing to do to get out the neo- fascist gangster in the White House..."
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 12:35:57 AM by wili »
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #82 on: May 14, 2020, 01:12:24 AM »
Thanks for sharing Wili. I considered throwing Cornel West's name in the list of potential progressive leaders in the post above, but I left him out because I can't see him running for POTUS.

But Cornel is a treasure and perhaps he will be the leading spiritual voice of the left. He has more in common with Bernie and MLK then anyone else on the left. His credibility is as close to 100% as it gets.

Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #83 on: May 14, 2020, 01:38:49 AM »
Sunrise Movement leader Varshini Prakash explaining her decision to join the Sanders - Biden climate task force. It's well articulated.

https://medium.com/sunrisemvmt/im-joining-the-sanders-biden-taskforce-on-climate-here-s-why-90a3dd0ff546

Sunrise is arguably the leading political organizing force behind the push for a Green New Deal in the US.


Freegrass

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #84 on: May 14, 2020, 01:57:10 AM »
Freegrass that would be wonderful.  That would require a truly unbiased organization.  Unfortunately, the most successful networks today are biased in one direction or another.
I emailed the guy from Wikipedia a while back, and told him that there was a need for a trustworthy polling app. Wikipedia would be well positioned to lead that charge. In the end, how hard can it be to develop a polling app? In Belgium we use the secure ItsMe App to log into government websites. This app could easily be used to identify users anonymously on a polling app, which eventually could lead to a political social network.

It's all in my head how to do it, but I lack the technical skills to create something like this...  :(
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Freegrass

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #85 on: May 14, 2020, 02:01:23 AM »
Thanks for sharing Wili. I considered throwing Cornel West's name in the list of potential progressive leaders in the post above, but I left him out because I can't see him running for POTUS.

But Cornel is a treasure and perhaps he will be the leading spiritual voice of the left. He has more in common with Bernie and MLK then anyone else on the left. His credibility is as close to 100% as it gets.
A true progressive believes in facts, not in fictional men with long beards who live in the clouds...
If every 8 year old in the world is taught meditation, we will eliminate violence from the world within one generation.
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Freegrass

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #86 on: May 14, 2020, 02:21:12 AM »
My political ideology is Social Liberalism. I wanted to create the Social Liberty Movement a while back, but depression is a bitch, and it never happened...   :'(

Under social liberalism, the common good is viewed as harmonious with the freedom of the individual.

I believe in UBI, lifelong education, and (mental)healthcare. Give people the tools to improve themselves, and money to buy the stuff that robots make so that the economy keeps going. Preferably green... but who still believes we can fix the climate? I don't...

If every 8 year old in the world is taught meditation, we will eliminate violence from the world within one generation.
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Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #87 on: May 14, 2020, 02:28:16 AM »
Freegrass, the topic of this thread is the American Progressive Movement. Please try to stay on topic.

Freegrass

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #88 on: May 14, 2020, 02:31:55 AM »
Freegrass, the topic of this thread is the American Progressive Movement. Please try to stay on topic.
Yes I know, and I just gave you a few ideas.
If every 8 year old in the world is taught meditation, we will eliminate violence from the world within one generation.
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Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #89 on: May 14, 2020, 03:02:11 AM »
Freegrass, the topic of this thread is the American Progressive Movement. Please try to stay on topic.
Yes I know, and I just gave you a few ideas.
Transitioning from fossil fuels to renewable energy is a good idea to prevent sea ice loss. Do you think that people should be posting that in the melting season thread? Would you consider that on topic?

If you want to promote, or even better, engage in activism, I applaud that. There are threads related to activism and you can always start your own if you don't find the right one.

But it's kinda impolite to just throw random generic ideas over the transom that are not directly related to the topic. I hope you can respect that. I'd rather not be motivated to hide your comments.

Freegrass

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #90 on: May 14, 2020, 03:28:32 AM »
But it's kinda impolite to just throw random generic ideas over the transom that are not directly related to the topic.
Those ideas I posted are truly progressive. But I'm not going to continue to argue with you. It is you who keeps disrupting threads when you start telling people what they can, or can't post. If you have a problem with one of my messages, report it to the admin, and let him them deal with it. Then YOU don't have to keep disrupting the conversation with your grievances.

My apologies Kassy! I edited the sexist comment.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 04:07:23 PM by Freegrass »
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Phoenix

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #91 on: May 14, 2020, 08:47:48 AM »
https://www.businessinsider.com/joe-biden-calls-for-rent-mortgage-forgiveness-from-federal-government-2020-5?utm_source=reddit.com

Biden calling for mortgage and rent forgiveness. Progressive policy is becoming a matter of life and death in the US.

The lines at food banks are growing.

The Walrus

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #92 on: May 14, 2020, 03:15:43 PM »
Thanks for sharing Wili. I considered throwing Cornel West's name in the list of potential progressive leaders in the post above, but I left him out because I can't see him running for POTUS.

But Cornel is a treasure and perhaps he will be the leading spiritual voice of the left. He has more in common with Bernie and MLK then anyone else on the left. His credibility is as close to 100% as it gets.
A true progressive believes in facts, not in fictional men with long beards who live in the clouds...

But a true progressive dos not limit him(her)self to believe in solely what be perceived by our limited capabilities.  A true progressive is not so close-minded.

Freegrass

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #93 on: May 14, 2020, 03:35:46 PM »
Thanks for sharing Wili. I considered throwing Cornel West's name in the list of potential progressive leaders in the post above, but I left him out because I can't see him running for POTUS.

But Cornel is a treasure and perhaps he will be the leading spiritual voice of the left. He has more in common with Bernie and MLK then anyone else on the left. His credibility is as close to 100% as it gets.
A true progressive believes in facts, not in fictional men with long beards who live in the clouds...

But a true progressive dos not limit him(her)self to believe in solely what be perceived by our limited capabilities.  A true progressive is not so close-minded.
I'm not close minded at all. I'm an agnostic who believes in the teachings of the Buddha. Peace can only happen if we all find peace within ourselves... Desire is suffering... Greed is destroying our planet...

I just don't think that anyone who firmly believes in a God that punishes people to eternal suffering in hell can ever be a true progressive. Unless of course you believe as I do that Jesus was a Buddhist...  ;)

But now we're probably drifting off topic a little. Although... maybe it's good if progressives think about the philosophy they want to follow... Without something to believe in, people are mostly lost...
If every 8 year old in the world is taught meditation, we will eliminate violence from the world within one generation.
-The Dalai Lama

The Walrus

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #94 on: May 14, 2020, 05:08:31 PM »
Thanks for sharing Wili. I considered throwing Cornel West's name in the list of potential progressive leaders in the post above, but I left him out because I can't see him running for POTUS.

But Cornel is a treasure and perhaps he will be the leading spiritual voice of the left. He has more in common with Bernie and MLK then anyone else on the left. His credibility is as close to 100% as it gets.
A true progressive believes in facts, not in fictional men with long beards who live in the clouds...

But a true progressive dos not limit him(her)self to believe in solely what be perceived by our limited capabilities.  A true progressive is not so close-minded.
I'm not close minded at all. I'm an agnostic who believes in the teachings of the Buddha. Peace can only happen if we all find peace within ourselves... Desire is suffering... Greed is destroying our planet...

I just don't think that anyone who firmly believes in a God that punishes people to eternal suffering in hell can ever be a true progressive. Unless of course you believe as I do that Jesus was a Buddhist...  ;)

But now we're probably drifting off topic a little. Although... maybe it's good if progressives think about the philosophy they want to follow... Without something to believe in, people are mostly lost...

I am a Christian, and I do not believe in a God that punishes people to eternal hell.  No Christian that I know believes that, and no, I do not believe that Jesus was a Buddhist.

You are correct in that we are drifting, and probably should end this soon, before the moderator steps in.  Lastly though, I will agree with your final statement about being lost.

Freegrass

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #95 on: May 14, 2020, 05:26:56 PM »
Don't worry Walrus. I have a problem with organized religion, not with religious people. There's a difference! The problem I see often within the progressive movement is atheism. Atheism is as intolerant as theism IMHO... That's why I believe that a true progressive should be agnostic... But that's just me... I can accept and respect other opinions...  ;)
If every 8 year old in the world is taught meditation, we will eliminate violence from the world within one generation.
-The Dalai Lama

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #96 on: May 14, 2020, 05:34:15 PM »
I can accept and respect other opinions...  ;)

That is nice to know Freegrass.  I think we can safely return this thread to its appropriate subject now.

wili

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #97 on: May 14, 2020, 06:29:54 PM »
Actually, I'm not sure you can really discuss the history of the American progressive movement without discussing theology and religion at some point. So I don't think your discussions were completely off topic, even if how it came up seemed a bit abrupt.

People associate religiosity with (a particular faction of) the right wing in the US, but of course there are strong church foundations of left wing activists, especially from the Black community.

But I'll leave it there, if you all want to move on.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #98 on: May 14, 2020, 06:44:38 PM »
I would appreciate if we moved on.

Both politics and religion are controversial on their own, but combined it might become too explosive. ;)

wili

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Re: The American Progressive Movement
« Reply #99 on: May 14, 2020, 07:17:34 PM »
BOOM!

 ;D ;D ;D
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."