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Phil.

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #50 on: May 23, 2020, 02:57:43 PM »
Hopefully at the end of this month Juan will open 2 polls, one of which will be the NSIDC September monthly average.

Attached are two graphs

- the extent plume from now to end of September - using daily change from now of the last 10 years, which shows how in September extent staying close to and just below 4.5 million km2.

Although titled 2019, I assume it should be 2020.

PragmaticAntithesis

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2020, 04:58:28 PM »
ps: I'm feeling smug - I wrote the following sentence on the 11th May...
Watch this space for the unfolding of the Great 2020 Mid-May Melting Event ?
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2975.msg263728.html#msg263728

And this is what happens when the people making the predictions actually know what they're talking about! Good job, Gerontocrat!
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gerontocrat

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2020, 05:52:10 PM »
ps: I'm feeling smug - I wrote the following sentence on the 11th May...
Watch this space for the unfolding of the Great 2020 Mid-May Melting Event ?
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2975.msg263728.html#msg263728

And this is what happens when the people making the predictions actually know what they're talking about! Good job, Gerontocrat!
Having been quite unprepared for the extreme melting on Greenland on 22nd May, (I predicted continuing modest melt), I think it's more a case of that even "The Farmers' Almanac" gets it right sometimes.
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Phoenix

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2020, 12:04:53 PM »

The diminished aerosol content due to Covid is a wildcard this year, so I'll guess 3.75M km2 at the minimum.

Revising upward after more bench marking vs 2019 and seeing that things are looking pretty solid on the Pacific side. 4.1M km2 for JAXA SIE.

oren

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2020, 12:38:13 PM »
P.A, do you want the poll to be removed, or activated?

PragmaticAntithesis

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2020, 02:50:30 PM »
P.A, do you want the poll to be removed, or activated?

Removed, please.
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oren

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2020, 03:24:13 PM »
Done, sorry hadn't noticed this until Niall pointed it out.

PragmaticAntithesis

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #57 on: May 25, 2020, 01:04:10 AM »
Hey Friv, you hear this? Melt ponds appearing almost instantly. I told you it will happen in 2..3 weeks - exactly 3 weeks ago (this post), when you said it'll be in a month. See, things go wild this time, you see what happens with albedo and i bet you know how it goes.

Another accurate prediction! You lot are good at this~
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johnm33

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #58 on: May 28, 2020, 11:16:37 AM »
^11 " the major consequence of increasing tidal action is greater recycling of Arctic waters south, if the flow of water south through Fram forces inflows from the Pacific then Beaufort will cycle anti[counter] clockwise and free up the channels of the CAA allowing the release of much of the freshwater lens. If the forcing is of Atlantic waters then these will cycle through to the ESS and a river of weak ice will move towards the pole from there, but this will induce more water from the Atlantic to flow south towards Banks is. again risking opening up the channels through the CAA."
^45 "the high has been pushing near surface waters through Fram fairly rapidly, the easiest route for flow is aligned with Amundsen basin and from the other side of Lomonosv between 140E-180 so a remote possibility of a +[near] pole hole. Come tuesday we should see Amundsen gulf begin to clear and that forcing in turn push the ice towards Chukchi, then any thick ice along the CAA sucked into Beaufort over the following days.
ATM the incoming AW looks like it'll head towards both Kara and Ellesmere"
The flow through CAA has begun.

In Baffin and Foxe basin the less saline result comes out at near -1.8c. once a flow is established it tends to persist, as Bruce pointed out the bouys in Beaufort indicate warming implying imo increased inflow from the Atlantic side.
So with cold water flowing into Baffin>Hudson expect a prolonged cold spell which'll probably extend down the east coast over time. With more 'high' tidal forcing onto/into Barents the 'low' tidal forcing has to draw more Arctic waters south this in turn must be replenished by the next high so unless some atmospheric forcing brings a halt to the process, the Atlantic penetration towards Banks will accelerate and with it the flow through to Baffin/Foxe. Implicit in this process is the loss of any thick ice 'resident' or arriving on/in the CAA coastchannels and an increasingly free c/wise rotation of the ice.
The Atlantic water flowing through Barents and onwards towards Chukchi finally slows and settles mainly in Makorov basin but Chukchi abyssal plain too, and from here a return flow moves in the direction of Fram, i think this flow caused the thinning near the pole around the 22nd and a similar but more pronounced thinning will occur around the 5th and subsequent thinning will occur on the 'Fram' side of the pole.
The smoothness of some of the coastlines of the channels through CAA suggest deep permafrost which will also suffer from erosion as the passing currents rises above 0c.

SimonF92

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #59 on: May 31, 2020, 09:36:25 PM »
Interesting figure (couldnt find source article unfortunately)
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Stephan

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #60 on: May 31, 2020, 10:16:31 PM »
This picture has been presented in this forum before.
It is based on the projections made in 2012 where an ever faster decrease was assumed.
But then came the increases in 2013 and 2014.
Therefore this picture is just an illustration of what could have happened if the disastrous 2012 melting season would have had even worse follow-ups in the next years.
It is too late just to be concerned about Climate Change

blumenkraft

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #61 on: May 31, 2020, 10:21:29 PM »
Interesting figure (couldnt find source article unfortunately)

This is the original source i think, Simon >> https://sites.google.com/site/arctischepinguin/home/piomas/

Aluminium

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #62 on: May 31, 2020, 11:38:10 PM »
3.0 M km2 ... However, the Lena River may surprise.
3.6 M km2. She did it. :) Though even in this case 1st lowest has a good chance to happen.

SimonF92

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #63 on: June 01, 2020, 10:45:41 PM »
 Good information, thanks to you both.
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oren

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #64 on: July 23, 2020, 09:15:37 AM »
Do you expect a 2nd place, MH?

1st-highly unlikely
2nd- good chance but weather will need a spell of favourable melt conditions at some stage
3rd or lower - quite possible if weather stays favourable for ice retention.

I do not wish to derail the melting season thread with personal predictions, as I'm sure many people have those, and the ice will do what it will do anyway.

However I thought this one interesting (outlandish) enough that it should be kept in a predictions thread.

For the record, I would be extremely surprised if 2020 doesn't make it to at least 2nd lowest. 2019 had a very cool August and much less preconditioning and heat uptake, but still managed to get to 2nd on the strength of its whole season. I can't imagine how 2020 can fail to overtake 2019 from its current position and unbelievable melting momentum, even if we only use the less reliable area as our measure and completely ignore extent. Record low is harder to achieve considering the spectacular-ness of the 2012 finish, but I'd say it's 50-50 chance at this point, considering the spectacular-ness of July 2020.

HapHazard

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #65 on: July 23, 2020, 01:17:21 PM »
Quote
3rd or lower - quite possible if weather stays favourable for ice retention.

That insinuates that current weather is already favourable... Yet century drops continue...
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igs

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #66 on: July 23, 2020, 03:41:37 PM »
Quote
3rd or lower - quite possible if weather stays favourable for ice retention.

That insinuates that current weather is already favourable... Yet century drops continue...


Good point, saves me one longer post  8)

oren

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2020, 06:20:08 PM »
Here is another prediction from the melting season thread. One I can easily agree with.

I think 4.0 mil km2 or above would require a miracle.


I think a safe bet is 3.2-3.6km2 min.

With a lean towards 2.7-3.1km2 min

bbr2315

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #68 on: July 24, 2020, 04:14:51 PM »
I will guess 2M KM^2 extent and 1.2M KM^2 area.

I think 2021 and 2022 will rebound a la 2013 and 2014. But this summer is going to be terrible. The worst impacts of the aerosol and contrails will result in worst-ever melt ponding this spring, and worst-ever melt this summer. However, they will also result in an excellent refreeze come winter 2020-21, and a brutal winter across the mid-latitude and well-populated areas of the continents.

The ice will survive this summer in a belt close to the CAA and Beaufort. Hudson Bay will melt out very late. Everything else will go early and quickly.

I give this post an A+

glennbuck

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #69 on: July 25, 2020, 01:48:16 AM »
I will guess 2M KM^2 extent and 1.2M KM^2 area.

I think 2021 and 2022 will rebound a la 2013 and 2014. But this summer is going to be terrible. The worst impacts of the aerosol and contrails will result in worst-ever melt ponding this spring, and worst-ever melt this summer. However, they will also result in an excellent refreeze come winter 2020-21, and a brutal winter across the mid-latitude and well-populated areas of the continents.

The ice will survive this summer in a belt close to the CAA and Beaufort. Hudson Bay will melt out very late. Everything else will go early and quickly.

I give this post an A+

Seems we are both at the opposite ends of the story but with a similar outcome, i see a large rise in temperatures over the next ten years and you see a mini ice age, both outcomes cause massive famine and Billions effected from crop failures. We are mostly on the same page on this Forum that this year could produce a record melting of the Arctic 2m^ km2 to 3m^ km2 and 50% of the Forum project a BOE in the next 5 years in a poll from 2018, so it is strange times we live in, 2020 is a crazy year for the planet.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2020, 03:01:36 AM by glennbuck »

ajouis

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #70 on: July 28, 2020, 12:00:38 PM »
weatherdude88 prediction

JAXA and Uni Hamburg data show 2020 as compact, as the most compact years in the data set. NSIDC compactness has moved towards the middle of the pact.



I would be surprised if NSIDC extent finishes in the top 4 this year.

High resolution sea ice extent may no longer be the lowest in the data set within 1-day.



<Removed goading and unnecessary quotes. Focus on data please. O>
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 Less than 3000 cubic kilometers this Piomas minimum.

SimonF92

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #71 on: July 28, 2020, 12:05:00 PM »
I will guess 2M KM^2 extent and 1.2M KM^2 area.

I think 2021 and 2022 will rebound a la 2013 and 2014. But this summer is going to be terrible. The worst impacts of the aerosol and contrails will result in worst-ever melt ponding this spring, and worst-ever melt this summer. However, they will also result in an excellent refreeze come winter 2020-21, and a brutal winter across the mid-latitude and well-populated areas of the continents.

The ice will survive this summer in a belt close to the CAA and Beaufort. Hudson Bay will melt out very late. Everything else will go early and quickly.

B+, you dropped a few points on your Hudson claim- but seemingly well done otherwise

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https://github.com/SimonF92/Arctic

oren

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #72 on: July 28, 2020, 12:18:43 PM »
July Arcus report now out https://www.arcus.org/sipn/sea-ice-outlook/2020/july

"Overall, the situation is little changed from the June report. There is a collective view that September ice extent will be reasonably close to the observed linear trend line, implying there will be no rapid decreases in Arctic sea-ice extent through the rest of the summer leading to a new record low."

Reminder, this is about the NSIDC extent - Sept average.
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« Last Edit: July 28, 2020, 12:24:22 PM by oren »

oren

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #73 on: July 30, 2020, 12:33:25 PM »
Prediction:

2020 crosses 2012 by August 10th, most likely between Aug. 6th and Aug 8th.

2020 crosses 2019 sometime between Aug 9th and Aug 13th, then crosses back into 2nd lowest territory between Aug 13th and Aug 21st.

Rationale: The compacting of the ice makes it difficult for extent to change other than at or slower than averages, though area may fall significantly, particularly if extent increases. However, 2019's curve flattens over those time periods, also.

We knew the low extent numbers would allow weird things to happen. The ice-saving compaction is one of them: Put stuff in a gyre and it accumulates to the center, creating a negative feedback for melt rates.

Nothing you all don't know, just me playing with trends and patterns and putting myself on the line because, why not?

Anyone care to join in?

Michael Hauber

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #74 on: July 31, 2020, 07:13:12 AM »
The Pacific side is going to melt out to at least 80 degrees north everywhere except for maybe the far Southern Beaufort where there's multi-year ice


Modis shows the ice has been rocked on the Pacific side.

It has the flat darkish gray look everywhere. This is the end before melt out.

I have been really busy so I haven't been able to read through this thread.

But I called it a couple days ago that if the Pacific side didn't melt immediately underneath this vortex that people would come out and claim that this year was going to finish like third or higher.


There is no chance of it finishing third or higher regardless of the weather no chance the Arctic is loaded with heat everywhere.


It is possible that 2020 will finish second if the weather is extremely favorable the rest of the way. 

A and even then it's pretty sketchy that that will happen

counter prediction - most ice edge on Pacific side (Wrangel Island to CAA) will be greater than 80N, and most of it likely closer to 75N than 80N.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 12:13:14 AM by Michael Hauber »
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glennbuck

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Re: 2020 Melting Season Predictions
« Reply #75 on: August 01, 2020, 01:22:39 PM »
I expect NSIDC Arctic sea ice area to be a record this year, 1,900,000 million km^2 - 2,150,000 million km^2 , FYI is thin, the majority will melt out and record Arctic temperatures and storms will cause very high melt this year for the remainder of August. Cyclone in August and these figures could be Conservative. Is the reduction in the Aerosol masking effect contributing to this years record July melt? JAXA extent will be a record, 2,550,000 million km^2 - 2,950,000 million km^2.  BOE before 2025!

Arctic temp, 2m Temperature Anomaly

1st Aug    +1.9 C   
31 st July +1.3 C    DMI 80N Temperature spike in tomorrow's data? Back to 1C for 31st July.
30th July +1.4 C
29th July +1.9 C
28th July +2.0 C

« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 10:43:49 AM by glennbuck »