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Phoenix

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #250 on: June 13, 2020, 11:53:49 AM »
Is this Floyd murder the trigger for a populist revolution ?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/12/he-just-doesnt-get-it-has-trump-been-left-behind-by-americas-awakening-on-racism

Frank Luntz, a Republican consultant and focus group organiser, tweeted: “In my 35 years of polling, I’ve never seen opinion shift this fast or deeply. We are a different country today than just 30 days ago.

After the death of Floyd, a Monmouth University poll found that 57% of Americans (and 49% of whites) believe police are more likely to use excessive force against African Americans, compared with just 33% of Americans after Eric Garner was killed by New York police in 2014.

Even Trump’s enabler and enforcer, Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell, seemed to get the memo. “We are still wrestling with America’s original sin,” he told reporters, adding that Senate Republicans are working on a police reform plan to tackle the “obvious racial discrimination that we’ve seen on full display on our television screens over the last two weeks”.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #251 on: June 13, 2020, 12:32:01 PM »
My cousin/guardian says that, in his experience as a cop, it is usually the young "gung-ho" cops who are likely to use excessive force and act like bullies.

Phoenix

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #252 on: June 13, 2020, 01:57:52 PM »
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/12/us/minneapolis-police-letter-chauvin-trnd/index.html

14 Minneapolis police officers issue a public letter condemning Derek Chauvin's actions.

blumenkraft

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #253 on: June 13, 2020, 05:18:10 PM »
FOXnews photoshopping exact same armed protester into their images of CHAZ.


wili

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #254 on: June 14, 2020, 03:50:55 AM »
Tom, I've read academic studies that confirm that this is indeed the general pattern. Mostly, older police are less likely to use lethal force, while new recruits come to policing through the lens of cop shows they see on tv. Generally, the older cops tend to have a mellowing influence on younger cops as they tutor them.

This was not, apparently, the case with the cops who killed George Floyd (remember his name).
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Phoenix

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #255 on: June 14, 2020, 01:08:22 PM »
https://www.democracynow.org/2020/6/1/cornel_west_us_moment_of_reckoning

Cornel West decribes street uprisings as symptomatic of imploding empire.


vox_mundi

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #256 on: June 14, 2020, 03:28:23 PM »
Fox News runs digitally altered images in coverage of Seattle’s protests, Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/fox-news-runs-digitally-altered-images-in-coverage-of-seattles-protests-capitol-hill-autonomous-zone/?amp=1

Fox News published digitally altered and misleading photos on stories about Seattle’s Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone (CHAZ) in what photojournalism experts called a clear violation of ethical standards for news organizations.

As part of a package of stories Friday about the zone, where demonstrators have taken over several city blocks on Capitol Hill after Seattle police abandoned the East Precinct, Fox’s website for much of the day featured a photo of a man standing with a military-style rifle in front of what appeared to be a smashed retail storefront.

The image was actually a mashup of photos from different days, taken by different photographers — it was done by splicing a Getty Images photo of an armed man, who had been at the protest zone June 10, with other images from May 30 of smashed windows in downtown Seattle. Another altered image combined the gunman photo with yet another image, making it appear as though he was standing in front of a sign declaring “You are now entering Free Cap Hill.”

Fox’s site had no disclaimers revealing the photos had been manipulated. The network removed the images after inquiries from The Seattle Times.

In addition, Fox’s site for a time on Friday ran a frightening image of a burning city, above a package of stories about Seattle’s protests, headlined “CRAZY TOWN.” The photo actually showed a scene from St. Paul, Minnesota, on May 30. That image also was later removed.

National news outlets on Friday also continued to cite a now-withdrawn comment by a Seattle police commander suggesting protesters were extorting payments from businesses within CHAZ. Seattle police Chief Carmen Best walked back that statement on Thursday, saying the comment was based on rumor and social media. “We haven’t had any formal reports of this occurring,” she said.

The daily scene at CHAZ has mostly been peaceful, with artists painting an enormous “Black Lives Matter” street mural and people gathering for free food, music and documentary films.

... The image, as displayed on the Fox News website, was spliced with other photos, including a photo of a smashed retail storefront in May, making it look as though the scene was all playing out concurrently in the autonomous zone. “It is definitely Photoshopped,” confirmed Ryder. “To use a photo out of context in a journalistic setting like that seems unethical.”

---------------------------

Despite a description by the President that is at odds with the reality on the ground, Fox News has continued to present the situation as dangerous. Its publishing of altered and misleading images on its highly-trafficked website was the latest — and arguably the most egregious — example of that.

Among the photos that Fox News published on its homepage was one that showed a protester running past a burning vehicle and building with the headline "CRAZY TOWN" blaring across the website. The image, which accompanied a story about the situation in Seattle, was in fact taken from the unrest last month in Minnesota.

... A spokesperson for Fox News pointed CNN on Saturday morning to an editor's note that was appended to stories the network published with the misleading images.

"A FoxNews.com home page photo collage which originally accompanied this story included multiple scenes from Seattle's 'Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone' and of wreckage following recent riots," the note read. "The collage did not clearly delineate between these images, and has since been replaced. In addition, a recent slideshow depicting scenes from Seattle mistakenly included a picture from St. Paul. Fox News regrets these errors."

... "I think it's disgraceful propaganda and terribly misrepresentative of documentary journalism in times like this, when truth-telling and accountability is so important," Kenny Irby, a photojournalism ethics expert, told the newspaper. "There is no attribution. There is no acknowledgment of the montage, and it's terribly misleading."

Akili Ramsess, executive director of the National Press Photographers Association, told The Seattle Times that it was "completely egregious to manipulate this the way they have done."
There are 3 classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus

blumenkraft

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #257 on: June 16, 2020, 09:47:34 AM »

blumenkraft

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #258 on: June 16, 2020, 09:52:31 AM »
Quote
What does it mean when people say that all cops are bastards (ACAB)?
If it were an individual thing, you'd give them the benefit of the doubt, but it isn't; it's an institutional thing. the job itself is a bastard, therefore by carrying out the job, they are bastards. To take it to an extreme: there were no good members of the gestapo because there was no way to carry out the directives of the gestapo and to be a good person. it is the same with the american police state. Police do not exist to protect and serve, according to the US supreme court itself, but to dominate, control, and terrorize in order to maintain the interests of state and capital.
Who are the good cops then? The ones who either quit or are fired for refusing to do the job.
While the following list focuses on the US as a model police state, ALL cops in ALL countries are derivative from very similar violent traditions of modern policing, rooted in old totalitarian regimes, genocides, and slavery, if not the mere maintenance of authoritarian power structures through terrorism.
police shoot people twice as often as previously thought. Keep in mind that this was self-reported, so we have no way of knowing if these numbers speak to the actual number of shootings in the US. Many of these people are completely unarmed. Police kill far, far more people than terrorists in the US and have killed over a hundred people more than mass shooters did in 2019 that we are aware of. Mass shooters are easily tracked. Police killings are not. 1 2
Oh, and cops also killed more people in 2019 than school shooters did in all of US history.
And if they don't shoot you, they might just airstrike your block and burn your children alive.
They also shoot one dog every hour, every day. At the absolute least.
Once you're in jail, be prepared to sit there for weeks -or months or years. It's so bad that people constantly plead guilty just so they can get out. It's so bad and so common, in fact, that over a third of all exonerations come after an individual has pleaded guilty. So much for the right to a speedy trial, huh?
And getting arrested is easy - tens of thousands of people yearly, in fact, thanks to lowest bidder garbage that police departments use in order to test for illicit substances. Field drug tests are about as reliable as lie detector tests or horoscopes. They just don't work. They just don't.
Think you're safe if you just follow directions? Yeah, no. And if they don't just outright kill you, they could make their instructions so arcane and hard to follow that they'll kill you for not following them, and they'll usually get away with it. He got away with it, by the way. Surprise!
They'll prosecute you for even knowing about crimes cops have committed.
Think you're safe in your home? lmao nah. Not even your 7 year old is safe from getting her brains blown out. check out this horrifying megapost on no-knock raids
Being a taxi driver is literally more dangerous than being a cop.
cops are more of a danger to themselves than anyone else is to them
they've admitted to stealing as much -or recently more- than burglars through "asset forfeiture," and the rate of their thefts has been climbing yearly. Keep in mind, these numbers only articulate what's been reported. It's probable that they've stolen far more than just this.
police are literally allowed to rape people on the job in 35 states, as they have the power to determine whether or not you consented to sex with them while in their custody.
up to 50% of the people police murder are disabled
the police are being trained to kill as if they're an occupying army and we're an insurgency. this is an inevitability, as the military-industrial complex needs to keep expanding into new markets.
Eugenics was still alive and well in the prison-industrial complex up until very recently, and could very well be continuing for all we know, as it was forcibly sterilizing inmates as late as 2010. I honestly don't see a reason to believe it's stopped.
The US surveillance state is massive (and while this post primarily focuses on the US, other countries are just as bad), though much of our surveillance is privatized. This doesn't stop the police from partnering with private companies, however. This will only get worse as time goes on. Also, we can't forget about the Patriot Act and Snowden's PRISM leaks.
the police, as an institution, are so completely steeped in violence, that up to 40% of them commit acts of domestic violence and other forms of domestic abuse. Most citizens are not even allowed to own firearms if found guilty of domestic violence, and these guys are expected to handle military-grade equipment.
Police exist to control and terrorize us, not serve and protect us. That's only their function if you happen to be rich and powerful.
also this: lol
the police as they are now haven't even existed for 200 years as an institution, and the modern police force was founded to control crowds and catch slaves, not to "serve and protect" -- unless you mean serving and protecting what people call "the 1%." They have a long history of controlling the working class by intimidating, harassing, assaulting, and even murdering strikers during labor disputes. This isn't a bug; it's a feature.
The justice system also loves to intimidate and outright assassinate civil rights leaders.
The police do not serve justice. The police serve the ruling classes, whether or not they themselves are aware of it. They make our communities far more dangerous places to live, but there are alternatives to the modern police state. There is a better way.
Further Reading:
(all links are to free versions of the texts found online - many curated from this source)
white nationalists court and infiltrate a significant number of Sheriff's departments nationwide
Kropotkin and a quick history of policing
Malcolm X Grassroots Movement. (2013). Let Your Motto Be Resistance: A Handbook on Organizing New Afrikan and Oppressed Communities for Self-Defense.
Rose City Copwatch. (2008). Alternatives to Police.
Williams, Kristian. (2011). “The other side of the COIN: counterinsurgency and community policing.” Interface 3(1).
Williams, Kristian. (2004). Our Enemies in Blue: Police and power in America. New York: Soft Skull Press.

A lot of references linked at the original post.

Link >> https://old.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gy52x6/seattle_tear_gassing_protestors_on_day_1_of_the/ft9687w/

vox_mundi

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #259 on: June 16, 2020, 03:17:38 PM »
Police Detain Armed Militia Members After Man is Shot at Albuquerque Protest
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/16/us/protest-wrap-tuesday/index.html

Vigilantes may have instigated violence that led to a shooting in New Mexico at a demonstration calling for the removal of a sculpture of a Spanish conquistador, officials said.

Albuquerque police detain members of the New Mexico Civil Guard, an armed civilian group, on Monday.

The right-wing group has repeatedly shown up at Black Lives Matter protests in recent weeks with guns and militarylike garb.

https://www.kunm.org/post/armed-militia-group-alarms-blm-protesters-late-monday-after-peaceful-rally

Police detained people involved in the shooting after using chemical irritants and flash bangs to protect officers at the scene near the Albuquerque National History Museum, a news release from the police department said.

The police chief said he believes vigilante groups might have spurred the violence.

"We are receiving reports about vigilante groups possibly instigating this violence. If this is true, we will be holding them accountable to the fullest extent of the law, including federal hate group designation and prosecution," Albuquerque Police Chief Michael Geier said in a news release.

"There is absolutely no space in New Mexico for any violent would-be 'militia' seeking to terrorize New Mexicans; and there is no space for violence of any kind on our streets and in our communities," the governor said in a statement.

... Militias like the New Mexico Civil Guard and other armed, far-right counterprotesters have been a controversial presence at Black Lives Matter protests across the United States. At an Albuquerque protest earlier this month, video of police talking to an armed militia group spurred allegations that officers were coordinating with the group in an official capacity, although police denied the claim.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/16/albuquerque-militia-shooting-protest/?outputType=amp

... Some critics have drawn contrasts between police response to largely peaceful and unarmed Black Lives Matter protests and the heavily armed, militia-led demonstrations against coronavirus restrictions in April and May. Monday’s shooting also led some critics to note that the armed militia members and alleged shooter were taken into custody by police without incident, but the Black Lives Matter protests are responding to incidents where police have shot and killed unarmed black men.

“Notice how calmly they’re all being detained,” former housing secretary Julián Castro tweeted Monday night. “Don’t tell me George Floyd and Rayshard Brooks and Eric Garner — who did not harm anybody — couldn’t be treated differently.”

https://twitter.com/JulianCastro/status/1272725222093991937
There are 3 classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus

Phoenix

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #260 on: June 16, 2020, 06:27:36 PM »
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/yair-netanyahu-clear-tel-aviv-of-minorities-631443

Meanwhile in Israel. the PM's son is using the US unrest to justify advancing their discrimination against the minority population.

Freegrass

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #261 on: June 16, 2020, 07:40:13 PM »
And so it begins...

Members of armed civilian group arrested, suspected gunman identified after man is shot at Albuquerque protest

June 16, 2020


Protesters in Albuquerque wrapped a chain around the neck of a bronze statue and began tugging and chanting, “Tear it down,” shortly before sunset on Monday. Their efforts to pull down a monument of Spanish conquistador Juan de Oñate suddenly stopped as four shots rang out.

Most people instinctively turned toward the noise, videos from the scene show. A few screamed. Just yards away, a group of men sporting militarylike garb and carrying semiautomatic rifles formed a protective circle around the gunman.

The gunshots, which left one man in critical but stable condition, have set off a cascade of public outcry denouncing the unregulated ‘militia’’s presence and the shooting. On Tuesday morning, the Albuquerque Police Department announced that detectives had arrested Stephen Ray Baca, 31, in connection with the shooting.

Baca was booked into the Metro Detention Center on a charge of aggravated battery, police spokesman Gilbert Gallegos Jr. said in a statement.

The victim has not been identified. Authorities said the investigation is ongoing.

“The heavily armed individuals who flaunted themselves at the protest, calling themselves a ‘civil guard,’ were there for one reason: To menace protesters, to present an unsanctioned show of unregulated force,” New Mexico Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham (D) said in a statement. “To menace the people of New Mexico with weaponry — with an implicit threat of violence — is on its face unacceptable; that violence did indeed occur is unspeakable.”

Albuquerque Mayor Tim Keller (D) said the statue would now be speedily removed as an “urgent matter of public safety” until authorities determine a next step.

“The shooting tonight was a tragic, outrageous and unacceptable act of violence and it has no place in our city,” Keller said in a statement. “Our diverse community will not be deterred by acts meant to divide or silence us. Our hearts go out [to] the victim, his family and witnesses whose lives were needlessly threatened tonight.”

Recent protests against Oñate statues in New Mexico mirror similar calls to tear down Confederate monuments amid a rise in Black Lives Matter demonstrations following the killing of George Floyd, who died as a Minneapolis police officer knelt on his neck for nearly nine minutes.

In the hours leading up to the violence on Monday, protesters faced off with members of an armed group of civilians that calls itself the New Mexico Civil Guard and counterprotesters toting “All lives matter” signs.

One group sought to tear down a monument to Oñate, a 16th-century despot who massacred indigenous people. The other set out as self-designated protectors of the statue, creating a heavily armed presence at the park in Albuquerque’s historic Old Town. Aside from a few small scuffles over signs near the monument, the protest had largely been peaceful, although tense at times.

Then, a white man in a blue T-shirt appeared to rile the crowd, according to video obtained by KOB4. People erupted in shouts, and the man took a few steps back. A masked protester swung a skateboard and struck him in the shoulder. The man backpedaled out of the crowd but continued to exchange shouts with protesters.

Someone in the video encouraged people to follow the man and get his license plate number. Several people followed him, and one tackled him to the ground. As he tried to stand back up and three people tried to hit him again, the man in blue pulled a gun and fired four shots, striking one man and scattering the crowd.

In a second video that captured the moments following the shooting, the gunman sat in the middle of a road as the New Mexico Civil Guard members formed a circle around him. One man carrying a semiautomatic rifle, and wearing camouflage fatigues and a military-style helmet, kicked the handgun away from the man and stood with his foot on top of the weapon.

Police responded to the scene with tear gas and stun grenades to force the crowd back. Officers detained several members of the armed group, according to reporters and witnesses at the scene. Video showed officers placing the apparent gunman into a cruiser.

Police have not released any information about the suspected shooter or said whether they think he has any connection to the armed group.

The organization, which identified itself to a New York Times reporter covering the protest Monday, has a controversial history. The right-wing group has repeatedly shown up at Black Lives Matter protests in recent weeks with guns and militarylike garb.

On Facebook, the group has shared materials encouraging people to arm themselves, promoted military training on infantry tactics and “ambushing,” and shared multiple posts opposing the leveling of monuments to Confederate figures in the South and Oñate in New Mexico. Members of the group recently told the Eastern New Mexico News that their aim was to protect businesses from damage during protests. They said they had been in contact with police and were following guidance given to them by officials.

Groups like the New Mexico Civil Guard and other armed far-right counterprotesters, often referred to as “militias,” have been a controversial presence at Black Lives Matter protests across the United States. At an Albuquerque protest earlier this month, video of police talking to an armed ‘militia’ group spurred allegations that officers were coordinating with the group in an official capacity, although police denied the claim.

At least one New Mexico lawmaker viewed the group’s consistent presence at protests as suspicious enough to warrant further inquiry. Sen. Martin Heinrich (D) called on the Justice Department to investigate the shooting Monday night.

“This is not the first report of heavily armed civilian militias appearing at protests around New Mexico in recent weeks. These extremists cannot be allowed to silence peaceful protests or inflict violence,” Heinrich said on Twitter on Monday night.

Some critics have drawn contrasts between police response to largely peaceful and unarmed Black Lives Matter protests and the heavily armed demonstrations against coronavirus restrictions in April and May. Monday’s shooting also led some critics to note that the armed civilians and alleged shooter were taken into custody by police without incident, but the Black Lives Matter protests are responding to incidents in which police have fatally shot unarmed black men.

“Notice how calmly they’re all being detained,” former housing secretary Julián Castro tweeted Monday night. “Don’t tell me George Floyd and Rayshard Brooks and Eric Garner — who did not harm anybody — couldn’t be treated differently.”

Meanwhile, Albuquerque Police Chief Michael Geier vowed to investigate any group that sought to stoke violence at the protest.

“We are receiving reports about vigilante groups possibly instigating this violence,” Geier said in a statement. “If this is true [we] will be holding them accountable to the fullest extent of the law, including federal hate group designation and prosecution.”

Katie Mettler contributed to this report.
When factual science is in conflict with our beliefs or traditions, we cuddle up in our own delusional fantasy where everything starts making sense again.

vox_mundi

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #262 on: June 17, 2020, 02:44:45 AM »
Air Force Sergeant Linked to ‘Boogaloo’ Movement Charged In Federal Officer’s Death
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/16/air-force-sergeant-charged-boogaloo-movement

An air force sergeant already jailed over the ambush killing of a California sheriff’s deputy was charged in connection with the shooting death of a federal security officer outside the US courthouse in Oakland during a night violent protest last month. Officials say the man has ties to the anti-government “boogaloo” movement.

SSgt Steven Carrillo, 32, was charged on Tuesday with murder and attempted murder in the killing of 53-year-old federal officer Dave Patrick Underwood.

Carrillo separately faces state charges in the 6 June ambush and fatal shooting of Santa Cruz county sheriff’s Sgt Damon Gutzwiller and the wounding of four other officers in Ben Lomond, an unincorporated area outside the beachfront city of Santa Cruz, south of San Francisco.

Carrillo, a leader of an elite military security force, had multiple links to the far-right, anti-government “boogaloo” movement, federal prosecutors said at a news conference on Tuesday.

Law enforcement officials said they identified multiple pieces of evidence that linked Carrillo to the developing anti-government extremist movement associated with the term “boogaloo”, an ironic word for “a violent uprising or impending civil war in the United States”.

Law enforcement officials discovered a ballistic vest with a “boogaloo” flag on it in a van they said Carrillo had used, and also alleged that Carrillo had written phrases associated with the movement in his own blood on the hood of a car he hijacked, according the criminal complaint against Carrillo.

... Although the concept of “the boogaloo” is popular with white supremacist accelerationists, it has also attracted a broader spectrum of American anti-government extremists.

“Boogaloo” rhetoric often identifies law enforcement officials, especially federal officials, as the enemy. Men carrying guns and wearing Hawaiian-print shirts, a symbol of the “boogaloo”, have showed up at protests over the killing of George Floyd by police across the country, including in Minneapolis, Salt Lake City, Dallas, Atlanta, and Philadelphia, the Washington Post reported.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/06/03/white-men-wearings-hawaiian-shirts-carrying-guns-add-volatile-new-element-floyd-protests/

Facebook announced on 4 June it would be taking some steps to make it more difficult for users to find groups associated with the term “boogaloo”, Reuters reported, but the social network is again facing criticism for not doing enough to crack down on far-right organizing on its platform, even as the death toll associated with the movement continues to climb.
There are 3 classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus

blumenkraft

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #263 on: June 17, 2020, 08:13:59 AM »
The two police officers who were previously thought to have been killed by BLM protesters were actually killed by right-wing extremists.

Suspect in killing of 2 Bay Area officers tied to right-wing ‘boogaloo’ group, prosecutors allege

Link >> https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-06-16/suspects-charged-killing-santa-cruz-cop-and-oakland-federal-officer

blumenkraft

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #264 on: June 17, 2020, 08:27:23 PM »
Quote
Ramsey Orta filmed the killing of Eric Garner. The video traveled far, but it wouldn't get justice for his dead friend. Instead, the NYPD would exact their revenge through targeted harassment and eventually imprisonment — Orta's punishment for daring to show the world police brutality.

Link >> https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/13/18253848/eric-garner-footage-ramsey-orta-police-brutality-killing-safety

blumenkraft

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #265 on: June 18, 2020, 08:11:38 AM »
Michael Che's Civil Rights Update


blumenkraft

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #266 on: June 18, 2020, 07:48:17 PM »
Noam Chomsky: This Uprising Is “Unprecedented” In US History


blumenkraft

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #267 on: June 18, 2020, 08:48:18 PM »

blumenkraft

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #268 on: June 18, 2020, 08:48:44 PM »
Everyone meet Tony Timpa. He called 911 for help, and ended up on the ground being choked to death by Dallas police. Police laughed as Tony died and continued to do so after the fact.

Link >> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bad_Cop_No_Donut/comments/hbc7gb/everyone_meet_tony_timpa_he_called_911_for_help/

Phoenix

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #269 on: June 18, 2020, 09:24:54 PM »
Noam Chomsky: This Uprising Is “Unprecedented” In US History



I recommend the Chomsky video. He's an intellectual giant of the left and has a balanced and wise perspective with some optimism about the benefits being realized from steady activism.

blumenkraft

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #270 on: June 18, 2020, 10:32:32 PM »
Let's talk about police work stoppages, call outs, and "blue flu"...


blumenkraft

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #271 on: June 19, 2020, 11:35:38 AM »
I know, right?

@PurelyPurgatory on Twitter:
Quote
Cops aren't wearing their uniforms to
and from work right now because
they're afraid someone might attack
them or their families. Can you imagine
that? Living with a constant fear of
being killed by a complete stranger
because, to them, you look like a
threat?


Tom_Mazanec

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #272 on: June 19, 2020, 12:40:33 PM »
<Language, Tom! Language! - BK>
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 03:26:12 PM by blumenkraft »

wili

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #273 on: June 19, 2020, 12:58:31 PM »
And these statistics would be relevant...how?

The thread is about cops, who are supposedly sworn to protect citizens, brazenly and casually killing citizens they are supposed to protect. And that killing (and other brutality) by those supposed protectors is far more likely to happen to you if you're Black (though all US citizens are far more likely to get killed by those supposedly there to protect us than in any other supposedly developed country).

So again, how would those stats be relevant to this particular discussion?

Or is this yet another example of 'whataboutism'?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 01:06:19 PM by wili »
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #274 on: June 19, 2020, 02:27:13 PM »
OK wiki, we will sharpen the point.
How much more likely are you to be killed by a cop if you are black as opposed to white?

kassy

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #275 on: June 19, 2020, 02:58:36 PM »
So again, how would those stats be relevant to this particular discussion?

And what would be the general point of #272 anyway? What is your point there?
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Phoenix

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #276 on: June 19, 2020, 03:02:05 PM »
OK wiki, we will sharpen the point.
How much more likely are you to be killed by a cop if you are black as opposed to white?

When was the last time you saw a cell phone video of a cop killing a white person ?

blumenkraft

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #277 on: June 19, 2020, 03:31:21 PM »
OK wiki, we will sharpen the point.
How much more likely are you to be killed by a cop if you are black as opposed to white?

Three times more likely.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #278 on: June 19, 2020, 05:06:03 PM »
I thought that this is about American racism, using a particular killing to "spark" the thread.
If the police are this pathological, how can we change that yet still keep the public safe from crime?
Also, I always wondered...when these race riots happen, why do they always seem to happen in black neighborhoods? Why don't the rioters go over to white neighborhoods and riot these? Why do they destroy their own space?

SteveMDFP

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #279 on: June 19, 2020, 05:09:39 PM »
Also, I always wondered...when these race riots happen, why do they always seem to happen in black neighborhoods? Why don't the rioters go over to white neighborhoods and riot these? Why do they destroy their own space?

In recent disturbances, there are several examples of "boogaloo" white supremacists going into peaceful protests and creating mayhem.  Some people are indeed going into other neighborhoods to engage in destruction.

blumenkraft

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #280 on: June 19, 2020, 05:24:31 PM »
I thought that this is about American racism, using a particular killing to "spark" the thread.
If the police are this pathological, how can we change that yet still keep the public safe from crime?

The cause of criminal behavior is mostly environmental. If people's livelihoods are not endangered, criminality goes down (robust welfare/social security/healthcare/public infrastructure/streetworker). If there is no lead in drinking water, that helps too BTW. There are many more things the government can provide that makes people's lives much safer even without police.

Quote
Also, I always wondered...when these race riots happen, why do they always seem to happen in black neighborhoods?

You might want to watch this video >> https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,3103.msg267880.html#msg267880

Quote
Why don't the rioters go over to white neighborhoods and riot these? Why do they destroy their own space?

A lot of the criminal things were started by agent provocateurs. Of course, they would do it where the people are protesting. In some places, the police pushed the protesters into those areas where looting happened to add fuel to the fire.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #281 on: June 20, 2020, 03:57:10 AM »
Has any culture past or present been free of racism? Maybe the San, nanning? Any other possibility?

greylib

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #282 on: June 20, 2020, 02:01:22 PM »
Has any culture past or present been free of racism?
Probably not. Fear and hatred of "others" probably predates Homo Sapiens. Certainly it can be seen in our close cousins, the chimpanzees, where war between tribes is common. Loyalty to the "in" group leads to clashes with those in the "out" group.

Racism is a subset of xenophobia. We have a world-spanning society, which makes it difficult to assign In or Out status to others. Colour of skin is a big clue, so it's used extensively.
Step by step, moment by moment
We live through another day.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #283 on: June 20, 2020, 02:30:57 PM »
Could interbreeding erase color lines in future millennia?

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #284 on: June 20, 2020, 03:00:00 PM »
Could interbreeding erase color lines in future millennia?
Probably not, with current attitudes. If you have three white grandparents and one black one, you're "black". Maybe one days things will look different, but I'm not holding my breath.

A West Indian friend of mine told me "I'm descended from slaves. But I'm also descended from slaveowners." An ancestor of his fell in love with a black girl, bought her, freed her, married her. But even though their children were half-white, they all married blacks - there really wasn't an alternative back then.
Step by step, moment by moment
We live through another day.

blumenkraft

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #285 on: June 20, 2020, 03:04:07 PM »
Has any culture past or present been free of racism? Maybe the San, nanning? Any other possibility?

As Greylib i think xenophobia is a human trait. But i also think everyone can overcome this instinct cognitively. It's work. Many people refuse to do this work.

Schools should help kids doing this work very early in life.

Could interbreeding erase color lines in future millennia?

I don't think this is how it works. Not a biologist, but i think you can't just mix it all down to one thing. For how i understand it, humans will stay being diverse.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #286 on: June 20, 2020, 03:06:00 PM »
Can you even tell that a quadroon (much less an octoroon) is not white, with maybe a tan? Or is it like eye color, where you either have it or not? How does that work?

kassy

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #287 on: June 20, 2020, 06:48:33 PM »
People should just think of all people as people. Do unto others...and then really do that.
Don´t punish stealing a little food 3 times with a life sentence because you would do the same if you had been in the same situation.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #288 on: June 22, 2020, 04:15:50 PM »
Has any culture past or present been free of racism? Maybe the San, nanning? Any other possibility?

Racism is a symptom of supremacy.
Racism is exhibited by people who feel supreme, knowingly or unknowingly.

Every supremacy adds another level of insanity.
Racism is insane.

Insanity is always destructive.
Racism is destructive.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

wili

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #289 on: June 22, 2020, 05:03:03 PM »
Tom may be making the common mistake here of confusing prejudice--which is everywhere and which probably humans could not function without some form of it--and systemic, or 'institutional' racism.

A short thought exercise my help clarify--if you were a Jew living under Hitler's Germany, you probably would have quite a few prejudices against many of their non-Jewish German neighbors. But I hope you can see, Tom, that the consequences of their prejudice is less dire than the systemic racism of German society at that time against them.

(Most activists use racism and systemic racism interchangeably, which can also be a problem. Racism, like so many things, is as complex as it is pervasive in much of modern society)
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #290 on: June 22, 2020, 08:14:14 PM »
....how can we change that yet still keep the public safe from crime?
Don't hire white cops anymore?  ::)
When factual science is in conflict with our beliefs or traditions, we cuddle up in our own delusional fantasy where everything starts making sense again.

Freegrass

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #291 on: June 22, 2020, 08:26:14 PM »
Has any culture past or present been free of racism? Maybe the San, nanning? Any other possibility?
I think you need to watch this Jane Elliott experiment if you want to understand discrimination. We are all capable of it.

Quote
Blue eyes, brown eyes: What Jane Elliott's famous experiment says about race 50 years on

Elliot is best known as the teacher who, on April 5, 1968, the day after Martin Luther King, Jr. was assassinated, put her third-grade students through a bold exercise to teach them about racial prejudice. She divided the children, who were all white, by eye color, and then she told the children that people with brown eyes were smarter, faster and better than those with blue eyes. What happened next proved to Elliot that prejudice is a learned behavior. Which means, she says, it can be unlearned.

https://eu.azcentral.com/story/news/local/karinabland/2017/11/17/blue-eyes-brown-eyes-jane-elliotts-exercise-race-50-years-later/860287001

When factual science is in conflict with our beliefs or traditions, we cuddle up in our own delusional fantasy where everything starts making sense again.

vox_mundi

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #292 on: June 23, 2020, 03:07:47 PM »
https://mobile.twitter.com/zoesalone/status/1274188529841639426

The FBI confirmed that racists are going to protests undercover to “incite riots” in order to “portray ‘Antfa’ as a bigger threat than it actually poses.”


(LES) = Law Enforcement Sensitive

-----------------------------------

Millions of Documents From >200 US Police Agencies Published In “BlueLeaks” Trove
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/06/blueleaks-airs-private-data-from-more-than-200-us-police-agencies/

https://www.wired.com/story/blueleaks-anonymous-law-enforcement-hack/

... DDOSecrets notes that none of the files appear to be classified, and Best concedes that they may not show illegal behavior on the part of police. But the group argues that the documents instead reveal legal but controversial practices, as well as the tone of police discussions around groups like Antifa—for instance, describing white nationalists like Richard Spencer as anti-Antifa, rather than acknowledging that Antifa expressly opposes groups like those who follow Spencer.

... "I've seen a few comments about it being unlikely to uncover gross police misconduct, but I think those somewhat miss the point, or at least equate police misconduct solely with illegal behavior. Part of what a lot of the current protests are about is what police do and have done legally."
There are 3 classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #293 on: June 23, 2020, 05:36:34 PM »
Tom may be making the common mistake here of confusing prejudice--which is everywhere and which probably humans could not function without some form of it--and systemic, or 'institutional' racism.

A short thought exercise my help clarify--if you were a Jew living under Hitler's Germany, you probably would have quite a few prejudices against many of their non-Jewish German neighbors. But I hope you can see, Tom, that the consequences of their prejudice is less dire than the systemic racism of German society at that time against them.

(Most activists use racism and systemic racism interchangeably, which can also be a problem. Racism, like so many things, is as complex as it is pervasive in much of modern society)

So true.  Everyone has prejudices or biases, based on their individual experiences.  Some of these are subconscious.  The consequences are often limited to the person with the bias and whoever they may encounter.  Racism is overtly intentional, applied to an entire population, and usually self-serving.  History is littered with multiple accounts of racism throughout time.  Will we ever be able to overcome it?

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #294 on: June 23, 2020, 06:00:47 PM »
Thanks for that perspective, Walrus.

Again, I would say that racism is too complex to just restrict it to any narrow range, including just intentional actions.

Some use the distinction of active versus passive racism. Active racism, on the individual level, is the kind of intentional activity you are talking about (though the line between intention and non-intention can be fuzzy sometimes).

But there is also passive racism (again, I'm talking in this case about the personal level), where you don't counter racism when you see it, and don't act aggressively to fight against its pervasive systemic forms. I would say that most whites are guilty of this form at some level, though I understand that many (especially whites! :) ) don't find it useful to lump both of these together.

What we all need to be is actively anit-racist.

Words create meaning in many ways, and besides the denotative discussions we are having here, we should also be clear that a term like 'racism' and 'racist' also can have strong connotative meanings...they can be emotionally charged 'fighting words' so to speak.

So it can be hard to navigate these semantic waters without someone getting their hackles up at some point. Hopefully we can avoid those kinds of reactions here.

Thanks all for a valuable discussion  so far, by the way. And apologies for any toes stepped on when I was under maximum stress a couple weeks ago.

« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 06:07:49 PM by wili »
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #295 on: June 23, 2020, 08:04:53 PM »
<snip>Racism is overtly intentional<snip>
I really have to disagree with that. Racism is taught, mostly through culture, but these days also by watching TV. How else could you explain this?


« Last Edit: June 24, 2020, 05:38:38 AM by Freegrass »
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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #296 on: June 23, 2020, 10:55:58 PM »
At the risk of oversimplifying things, Racism can be thought of as Prejudice + Power.

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #297 on: June 24, 2020, 09:30:13 AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/23/suffocating-french-delivery-driver-cedric-chouviat-last-words-george-floyd-case
  by Kim Willsher

 Excerpts:
A French delivery driver who died after being arrested in Paris pleaded, “I’m suffocating” several times as police held him to the ground.

Footage has emerged of 42-year-old Cédric Chouviat saying he could not breathe seven times in 22 seconds as officers pinned him to the ground.

Four police officers are being questioned for “involuntary homicide” over the arrest near the Eiffel Tower in January that echoes the death of George Floyd in the US that has sparked worldwide protests and Black Lives Matter demonstrations.

Police said they stopped Chouviat on his scooter after claiming he was looking at his mobile phone and had a dirty licence plate. Officers say he was disrespectful and abusive and resisted arrest.

However, a report by the National Gendarmerie Institute for Criminal Research suggested the exchanges between the police and the delivery driver were “correct”, although officers may have felt he was being “provocative” or “defiant”.

According to witnesses quoted by Le Monde, the officers held Chouviat, a father of five, in a chokehold, a restraint technique that was banned by the interior minister, Christophe Castaner, this month, then reinstated after complaints from police.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

blumenkraft

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #298 on: June 24, 2020, 09:43:49 AM »
Quote
@dyllyp

Elijah's last words were: "I'm an
introvert. I'm just different that's all. I'm
so sorry. I don't have a gun. I don't do
that stuff....All I was trying to do was
become better. I'll do it...You all are
phenomenal. You are beautiful. And I
love you. Try to forgive me. I'm sorry."

Quote
@TheSharkPunch

This was Elijah McClain.

He wore masks due to his anemia and Colorado
weather.

Someone called 911 on him and the police held
him down, beat him, and injected him with
ketamine.

He went into cardiac arrest and died.

Elijah liked to play his violin for stray cats to
calm them.

« Last Edit: June 24, 2020, 09:55:23 AM by blumenkraft »

blumenkraft

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #299 on: June 24, 2020, 09:53:10 AM »
Quote
@blackwomenviews

Sooo.. .the cops completely fabricated
an assassination attempt but we are
supposed to take their word for it when
they say "I feared for my life" before
killing unarmed Black people?

Quote
Eric Boehlert @EricBoehlert

just updated my piece in the wake of the
stunning report today that the three officers at
the center of the 'poisoning" were never sick
and never even felt any symptoms.