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nanning

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #400 on: September 19, 2020, 05:49:10 PM »
Tom, were blumenkraft still here, he would go completely medieval on you for that post. And rightly so imo.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
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wili

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #401 on: September 19, 2020, 06:27:29 PM »
Thanks for trying to engage, nanning. Floyd was murdered half way between my house and where my parents live, just a couple k away.

I try not to engage with this kind of despicable display of bigotry, because I it's not worth the time and elevated blood pressure.

I, too, miss blum in these (and many other) cases.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #402 on: September 19, 2020, 08:10:40 PM »
What about going medieval on calling me a racist because I asked for a rebuttal to that article?
I don't know how many people have been killed by police officers acting in the line of duty in the last five years, but according to that site 1,065 officers have died in the line of duty. You asked how George Floyd's mother would feel, so I asked you how Joshua Miktarian's daughter would feel. Don't play the guilt card if you don't want it played against you.
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wili

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #403 on: September 20, 2020, 12:44:59 PM »
I would like to hear from our European colleagues on something.

My impression is that even most arch-conservatives in Europe agree that the police--the public servants paid by the citizens to protect them--should not be regularly brutalizing and killing those same citizens for no cause and generally with impunity.

Is that generally true?


"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #404 on: September 20, 2020, 01:01:17 PM »
I don’t know about Europe but I agree with the statement. It is in specific cases it gets messy, because we would rather release ten guilty than punish one innocent. So were the officers adhering to SOP at the time? Were they afraid for themselves or others? And so on. Also, 99% of police are trying to be good public servants, just like 99% of civilians are just trying to be good citizens. But that still makes for thousand of rogue cops and millions of criminals. And in 2020 there is the general worsening of politics on top of all that.
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wili

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #405 on: September 20, 2020, 01:35:18 PM »
When nearly a hundred police lined up down the street from me and opened fire on peaceful, unarmed protesters exercising their first amendment rights, 0% of them imho were "trying to be good public servants"

At that point, it wasn't part of their job description, essentially

For just once, I would like to see one cop in such circumstances either walk away, or walk over to the other side, hold up his hands, and join the protesters who were similarly holding up their hands as they bravely, unarmed walked toward police who were firing at them
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #406 on: September 20, 2020, 04:57:07 PM »
wili, how many protesters were hurt? Can you give me a news link to this incident?
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wili

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #407 on: September 20, 2020, 06:54:13 PM »
I know people who were in the protest, saw some of this myself, and there was lots of live streaming at the time. It seems to be difficult now to find these videos, but if you try, I'm sure you can find some. People had their eyes put out, as well as other injuries. They seemed to have especially aimed at men's crotches, with some sustaining permanent damage to their testicles.

I have to go now and make ten gallons of chili to feed my neighbors many of whom are now in a deeper crisis than ever.

Best wishes to all in difficult times
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

wili

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #408 on: September 21, 2020, 09:05:18 AM »
https://www.gucmakale.com/wp/massive-study-says-more-than-95-percent-of-all-black-lives-matter-protests-were-peaceful/?

Massive Study Says More Than 95 Percent Of All Black Lives Matter Protests Were Peaceful
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

oren

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #409 on: September 21, 2020, 10:23:18 AM »
Tom, may I suggest something to you? You brought an article and innocently asked for a refutation. I don't think anyone should go medieval on you for it, as you did not realize you were publicizing a biased and malicious source.
(Blum would go medieval, but he would be wrong).
However, it is on you now to remember that the source you read and brought here is indeed biased and malicious. You should stop reading it, and certainly stop posting further articles from it.
I would suggest doing this with all your sources. You shall recognize them by their lies and by their biases. If you want to build a good understanding of the world around you, best stick to the objective sources. Remember - you are what you read.
Just my 2 cents.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #410 on: September 21, 2020, 11:59:00 AM »
I used to go to abortion protests when I lived in Maple Heights and got some abuse (and the opposite) from passerby but police never showed up. I believe in even pro choice protests being held, so certainly protests against racism. Does anyone else have information on the incident wiki described, or any other similar incidents?
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nanning

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #411 on: September 21, 2020, 05:27:00 PM »
Good advice oren, and indeed 'medieval' is a bit over the top. I think it means torture chambers and blum would not do that :)

it's almost as if Tom keeps relighting the 'fire' on purpose. I might post a song in the good music thread about it ;)
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #412 on: September 21, 2020, 06:49:06 PM »
I find it interesting that Right wing publications like American Thinker are verboten but Left wing publications like Guardian are the salt of the Earth.
I refuse to be either Left or Right. If polled I say Catholic and if polled by a machine I say Moderate (which really doesn’t describe me). Apparently in this country if you are in favor of helping the poor and are opposed to pollution you are a Far Left Extremist. Also, if you are opposed to abortion and same sex marriage you are a Far Right Extremist. So I am simultaneously a Far Left Extremist and a Far Right Extremist (?????).
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Phil42

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #413 on: September 21, 2020, 08:48:38 PM »
... Does anyone else have information on the incident wiki described, or any other similar incidents?

I am going to assume that you ask in good faith and simply don't find any sources about wili's described and similar incidents. That said, it is really not hard not find information / videos
/ stories / articles of (especially US) police violence. I will list some sources that I found in a quick search. Trigger warning: Some footage may contain extreme police violence / NSFW content.

Videos:
https://www.reddit.com/r/2020PoliceBrutality/top/
https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1266751520055459847
https://twitter.com/trevortimm/status/1268621018857213954?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1268621018857213954%7Ctwgr%5Eshare_3&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fus-news%2F2020%2Fjun%2F06%2Fpolice-violence-protests-us-george-floyd

Articles:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/31/the-counted-police-killings-2015-young-black-men (2015)
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/06/police-violence-protests-us-george-floyd
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/16/its-not-about-bad-apples-how-us-police-reforms-have-failed-to-stop-brutality-and-violence
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/08/us/us-police-floyd-protests-country-comparisons-intl/index.html
https://edition.cnn.com/videos/us/2020/08/14/gun-violence-black-community-police-brutality-eg-orig.cnn
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/lost-eye-price-protesting-police-brutality-200620215047122.html

Now, I haven't watched all the videos and fully read all the articles myself. I just wanted to provide some links for people that have a hard time getting into this topic. Imo, to deny that police brutality (especially against PoC) is a huge problem, one has to actively close both eyes.

wili

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #414 on: September 21, 2020, 08:52:57 PM »
Thanks, phil

unicorn riot did a bunch of live streaming at the time. I haven't poked around in their archives, but that might be a place to look if anyone is interested

nanning, though 'get medieval' may have started with reference to medieval torture, its overuse and perhaps its use at the end of the comic parody 'Amish Paradise' by Al Yankovich, has made it more often slightly ironic and even comical.

« Last Edit: September 21, 2020, 09:51:56 PM by wili »
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #415 on: September 28, 2020, 01:14:33 PM »
Surprising New Evidence Shows Bias in Police Use of Force but Not in Shootings
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html
Quote
A new study confirms that black men and women are treated differently in the hands of law enforcement. They are more likely to be touched, handcuffed, pushed to the ground or pepper-sprayed by a police officer, even after accounting for how, where and when they encounter the police.

But when it comes to the most lethal form of force — police shootings — the study finds no racial bias.
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nanning

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #416 on: October 03, 2020, 06:00:06 AM »
The controversy around BLM fashion highlights the systemic racism that the movement is trying to change

https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2020/sep/28/why-it-matters-when-black-lives-matter-clothing-is-banned
  by Priya Elan

in the U.S.A. it seems that human rights statements are political
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

wili

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #417 on: October 13, 2020, 06:29:06 PM »
For any who still think the people of Minneapolis burnt down their own city, note that out of the 21 arson defendants, only 1 is a Minneapolis resident. Almost all the rest are from the suburbs, out state or even out of state.

Matthew Lee Rupert had reportedly been arrested 44 times in his hometown of Galesburg, Ill.

“I’m going to Minneapolis tomorrow,” said Rupert, 28, in a Facebook post, hours before allegedly lighting a Minneapolis Sprint store on fire, looting a Home Depot and encouraging others to throw incendiaries at police during the riots. “Who coming. Only goons. I’m renting hotel rooms.”

https://www.twincities.com/2020/10/10/federal-charges-arson-george-floyd-protests-minneapolis-st-paul/
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #418 on: October 13, 2020, 06:31:22 PM »
Why do these idiots do things like post on Facebook the crimes they are going to commit? How do they expect to get away with it?
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wili

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #419 on: December 27, 2020, 05:29:38 PM »
This article is old, but it emphasizes how much evidence there is that much of the arson and violence in my neighborhood after the Floyd lynching was committed by rightwing a$$holes, trying (pretty successfully) to paint BLM and allies as violent. No evidence of any Antifa involvement in violence here that I've heard of, by the way.

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/05/30/outsiders-extremists-are-among-those-fomenting-violence-in-twin-cities
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

wili

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #420 on: December 31, 2020, 09:26:34 AM »
Cops in Minneapolis just shot someone dead not far from the George Floyd site. People are rightly suspicious of police around here, tho in this case witnesses do concur that the person who was shot opened fire on the police first. Still many questions unanswered at this point.

Crowds started to gather, but have now dispersed, as I understand it. Can hear a lot of helicopters from my house, which I assume are mostly police surveillance, tho some may have been news copters.

Police body camera footage is supposedly going to be released tomorrow. I hope we don't have too much disruption (looting, arson, etc), but I also do want cops to be accountable, of course.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #421 on: December 31, 2020, 03:13:38 PM »
Bad apples in policedom are rotting the whole barrel. Bad apples in civiliandom threaten to do the same.
I worry about where this will end up.
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wili

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #422 on: December 31, 2020, 09:57:03 PM »
Still no bodycam footage today. The victim was a 23 year old Somali man. A vigil is planned, but also some late night protests. Conflicting witness accounts, so far, from what I've seen.

We need justice, but it would be nice to not have more opportunities for rightwing assholes to come into my neighborhood and, under the cover of righteous protests, burn much of it down again!
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

wili

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #423 on: December 31, 2020, 10:06:36 PM »
From a neighbor:

Quote
I didn’t post last night. Lots I could say.
I’m waiting to watch the cameras so that I can see for myself what happened. I don’t need any synopsis or summary.

John Elders [MPD spokesperson/pathological liar] already out making statements that are false just like last time. He’s not just an officer. He is a Councilmember in New Hope. How many of you knew that?

It should not have taken another human life to make it any more clear. The police know that there is no consequence for this. There haven’t been yet. The main murderer in the Floyd case took 4 days to arrest, they let him out and he can go to another surrounding state for safety, they wanted to move the trial to St Cloud...the list goes on. Who was the first one to get time? Officer Noor. The first and last example they made out of anyone after how many murders?

The Mayor has made changes that haven’t improved anything a few times now. You can’t reform the police, hell you can’t even control them let alone reform them.

At what point are we going to get real here? Everyone should be mortified.

THEY JUST MADE USE OF FORCE CHANGES IN AUGUST! Here we are again. Can’t shoot at moving vehicles and must use the least amount of force possible. So unless they attempted to taze, pepper spray, CS gas, or rubber bullet him first, clearly they used the most amount of force possible by shooting this person in the head.

Innocent until proven guilty. The spin cycle already churned out a fake term, “felony traffic stop”. Narrative. It gives the impression that the person deserved it.
Read it for yourself for those that don’t know.

This is exactly why GFS is holding that corner down until after the trial.
We can’t keep pretending like nothing happened, put up a monument, and then throw flowers in front of it so “we can all move on”. That $20 was never counterfeit. They never corrected for that narrative either. They want the presence of doubt.

Something did happen. It happened again last night. Cops are not jury’s or judges. They just like to play all the roles. This sends a message to the public. They don’t care about the Chief. They don’t care about the Mayor. They don’t care about the Council.

They don’t respect the communities they serve.

They don’t respect the badge because; if they did, the good ones would speak out. If Kroll [head of police union, verifiable pos] is as dangerous as we all know them to be to the point where officers fear speaking out, what does that tell you? When an overwhelming majority of the “union” federation votes for the current leadership of Kroll, a known racist, what does that tell you? When you drive from Andover and Hugo everyday to terrorize people who don’t look like you at disproportionate numbers, what does that tell you?

The police may pass out bikes and toys but that doesn’t absolve them of these murders. They are out of control. I call them the uncheckables. Even being fired by the Chief means nothing. They get reinstated. They are like meteorologists. They can be completely wrong and still have a job.
If we have rules of engagement in war (and I’m a vet so I would know) how in the hell don’t we have them here? Cops want to go home at night? Of course they do. I wanted to come home after 14 months in the desert. But we sign up for the job and that’s the risk we take.

We don’t get to go around playing shoot em up because it’s better to shoot first and ask questions later in the name of getting to go home at night. That shit is cowardly and in the military would land you in Leavenworth and dishonorably discharged.
 
The history of policing is important. Those of you that don’t know it need to get educated on the topic. You would know why it can’t be reformed. You would know why we need community control. You would see how the original purpose for police is still being carried out in present day.
They had their scope reduced and 8 million moved to the department that will take ownership of the work and the positions to carry them out.

In 2018, 60.8 million was spent statewide on lawsuits because of police misconduct. It’s now a billion dollar problem. This is why we leave people to freeze in parks. We pay at the expense of human lives for these “mistakes” and misconduct.

So keep asking for more money for the department and see how much safer you are. Reallocate money where it counts: housing, economic development, environmental pollution mitigation, education, youth programming, and elder care. Watch how safe we can be.

Priorities. Right now state sanctioned murder is being normalized. What is it going to take? These officers are rogue. This is why the state and FBI are investigating them and the BCA has to come in because we can’t trust them to do anything but not respond to calls and kill people.

I don’t want to hear the what about the good cops argument. Let them speak for themselves and stand up. Yes, I remember the open letter. Where did that get us? And then Former Deputy Chief DC Knight tries to call it out and the Chief demoted him. What does that tell you? This is the same Chief who sued the city and won because he knows better than most the discrimination Black officers face and the double standards they are held to.

We can’t ignore this.

 Mayor Jacob Frey
 at what point are you going to get real? Phillipe Cunningham - Ward 4 Minneapolis City Council Member

 what is the public safety committee going to do? Linea Palmisano
 what about enterprise? Is this not an enterprise issue?
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

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Re: George Floyd murder and blowback
« Reply #425 on: February 12, 2021, 02:11:30 PM »
Black, Hispanic and female police use force less often than white male officers
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/black-hispanic-female-police-use-force-less-than-white-male-officers
Quote
A case study of Chicago police suggests diversification may improve treatment of civilians
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