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Isee

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Historic Antarctic Expeditions
« on: June 25, 2020, 06:12:29 AM »
The history of the Dutch ship Duyfken which reached Australia in 1606, is known from written texts which are like an account recorded from Indonesia:

https://archive.org/details/travelsofludovic00vartrich/page/250/mode/2up
p.249-251.

Indonesians in 1500 knew that the Southern Cross was used by Australian aboriginals to travel. It is visible in the tropics from April-June but continually visible south from 25 degrees ( as city of Brisbane, Queensland).

"Ludovico di Varthema (1470-1517), in The travels of Ludovico di Varthema , stated that the Southern Javanese people sailed to "far Southern lands" up to the point they arrived at an island where a day only lasted four hours long and was "colder than in any part of the world".  .mapping science was developed to the point that the Portuguese considered the Javanese maps were the best in the early 1500s. The Javanese  jong ships already plied the seas between India and China as early as 1st century CE, carrying up to 1000 people alongside 250-1000 tons of cargo." _wiki.
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The midwinter day at West Antarctic peninsula is 4 hours but is longer in Southern islands, indicating an actual experience. East Antarctica on the Circle has 2 hours midwinter and up to 4 hour days for a couple of months.  A ship-wreck "of ancient design"  was found at Macquarie island when first visited by Australians.

Jones, John Winter (1863).. The travels of Ludovico di Varthema in Egypt, Syria, Arabia Deserta and Arabia Felix, in Persia, India, and Ethiopia, A.D. 1503 to 1508. Hakluyt Society. p 249-251 

Cartas de Afonso de Albuquerque, Volume 1, p. 64, April 1, 1512
Liebner, Horst H. (2002). Perahu-Perahu Tradisional Nusantara. Jakarta.
"Majapahit-era Technologies". Nusantara Review. 2 October 2018.
Macquarie Island: a brief history — Australian Antarctic Division Archived13 June 2012 at the Wayback Machine.

The record of other ships is like this :"In 1773 James Cook and his crew crossed the Antarctic Circle for the first time but although they discovered nearby islands, they did not catch sight of Antarctica itself. It is believed he was as close as 240 km (150 mi) from the mainland".

Is the Indonesian story believable and were they likely the first to explore there?





« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 08:23:22 AM by Isee »

oren

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Re: Historic Antarctic Expeditions
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2020, 06:34:29 AM »
I've modified the thread title to be more general. Users are invited to add information on historic Antarctic expeditions.

Isee

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Re: Historic Antarctic Expeditions
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2020, 07:13:42 AM »
.

« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 07:28:19 AM by Isee »

oren

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Re: Historic Antarctic Expeditions
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2020, 07:14:36 AM »
And forgot to say, welcome Isee!

Isee

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Re: Historic Antarctic Expeditions
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2020, 07:29:30 AM »
thanks , the post has been tidied up..
The quoted Italian poem by Dante d. 1321 is roughly translated:
"I turned to my right hand and placed the other pole, four stars never seen by earlier people, heavens of flames enjoyed it or northern widowed site thus deprived it to steer them".

Surely Italians weren't the first.. but could Romans have explored south?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 08:01:43 AM by Isee »

KiwiGriff

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Re: Historic Antarctic Expeditions
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2020, 10:46:42 AM »

I have a copy of The crossing of Antarctica : the Commonwealth Trans-Antarctic Expedition, 1955-1958
It has the story of the expedition  from both  Ed Hillary and  Dr Vivian Fuchs perspective .
Being a kiwi I am of course biased. 8)
Sir Ed knocked another bastard off......  ;D
I own a  Ferguson TE-20 tractor ...To take such a basic contrivance  to the south pole is an amazing effort of grit, determination and endurance and a  legendary example of the Kiwi  "number eight wire"  mentality . The men that used dog sleds to make epic geological survey journeys across vast regions of the Antarctic  concurrent with Eds push to the pole also deserve far more recognition for the work they did.
Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
Notebooks of Lazarus Long.
Robert Heinlein.

kassy

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Re: Historic Antarctic Expeditions
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2020, 03:05:51 PM »
but could Romans have explored south?

I doubt it. Their ships were not suitable for that. There always was trade between the east and the west so the knowledge could have been inherited via a map or some document accompanying one.

I am not sure how sensitive the info was then because if you would write about the science behind it that would conflict with then current views but mentioning it in a book would be ok (it´s just fiction).

So they probably had some map from asia.

Javans would not be a bad bet since they were already close and we humans do love to sail to the horizon to see what is next. Another interesting tidbit the quality of the maps they mention.
There might have been some contact with China too. So maybe it went Java to China to the west.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Isee

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Re: Historic Antarctic Expeditions
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2020, 12:00:03 AM »
It is 7700km from Borneo to Madagascar Africa and about 9700km Borneo to east Antarctica.

https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/33/9/2396/2579411

Malagasy Genetic Ancestry Comes from an Historical Malay Trading Post in Southeast Borneo

Crucially, these dates of genetic admixture, in agreement with a previous study , reflect the midpoint or end of noticeable admixture between groups of Asian and African ancestry in Madagascar, rather than the start of this contact. Therefore, they could correspond to the end of the period of the main Austronesian presence in Madagascar that started around the first millennium CE.



https://books.google.com.au/books?id=9uyuHAXBuRkC&pg=PA84&lpg=PA84&dq=malay+madagascar+loan+words&source=bl&ots=J8rSjo24zV&sig=ACfU3U0rIuo5LZ0B7DPUQ2kMdGbw44MXuw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjclpva753qAhXVzTgGHY7UAdIQ6AEwB3oECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=malay%20madagascar%20loan%20words&f=false

The Austronesians: Historical and Comparative Perspectivesbooks.google.com.au › books

According to him this indicated that the East Barito migrants to Madagascar must ... show that there are many Malay loanwords in Malagasy, ...
Peter Bellwood, ‎James J. Fox, ‎Darrell Tryon - 2006 - ‎Social Science

https://europepmc.org/article/pmc/pmc4870696
Contrasting Linguistic and Genetic Origins of the Asian Source Populations of Malagasy.

The Austronesian expansion, one of the last major human migrations, influenced regions as distant as tropical Asia, Remote Oceania and Madagascar, off the east coast of Africa... .  Malagasy show genomic links to a range of Island Southeast Asian groups, particularly from southern Borneo,..

https://tamilnation.org/heritage/chera/070126chera_coin.htm

Chera Coin - Roman connection in Tamil Nadu - Tamilnationtamilnation.org › heritage › chera ›    Jan 26, 2007 -
CHENNAI: A Chera coin made of silver, with the portrait of a Chera king wearing a Roman-type bristled-crown helmet,

 https://books.google.com.au/books?id=8iUlDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA409&lpg=PA409&dq=roman+helmet+coin+tamil+nadu&source=bl&ots=rP9es2xoq1&sig=ACfU3U1c6llm8wefQ13Bb-ld-cJ2nmtAAQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiJ9Zem9p3qAhUezTgGHTheC8QQ6AEwDXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=roman%20helmet%20coin%20tamil%20nadu&f=false

Imperial Rome, Indian Ocean Regions and Muziris: 2016

helmet has prominent bristles and is not a royal Roman headgear. ... like a helmet worn by the Roman guards.
---------------

Dante who may have described the Southern Cross, was Ravenna's ambassador to Venice which imported spices from Indonesia. "Dante was very impressed by Venice, but above all he was inspired by the Arsenal, the shipyard where the Venetians created their incredible fleet". This suggests an interest in stories from the east about shipping.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 12:17:01 AM by Isee »