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sidd

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Life Without
« on: July 18, 2020, 09:16:08 AM »
This is a thread arising from a discussion with Mr. Nanning beginning at

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2687.msg274915.html#msg274915

in the thread on cars and more cars. I'll kick it off with what some would call an extreme example: i quote Mehta in a book called "Maximum City"

"a family in the diamond market that is about to renounce the world—take diksha"

"they are Jains. They are becoming monks in a religion which for 2,500 years has been built on the extreme abjuration of violence."

"this family of five—a father and mother in their early forties, their nineteen-year-old son, and seventeen-year-old twins, a son and a daughter—are going to leave this flat, this city, and everything they own. They will spend the rest of their lives wandering on the rural highways of the country, the men and the women separated, never to be a family again."

"In one month, they will go to the Gujarat town and give away, physically throw away, everything"

"Sevantibhai came across a sentence that electrified him. “Are you going to be dismissed or will you resign?” "

"For the last few years, Sevantibhai had been progressively renouncing modernity. He had already ceased using allopathic medicine ... Next to go was diesel and petrol. He gave up using automobiles. Sevantibhai impresses upon me the great sins committed during the extraction of fossil fuel ... Then went electricity. For the last seven years, Sevantibhai has been living in his Bombay high-rise flat without electric lights or appliances."

"The only way to reach moksha is to renounce the world, to take diksha. Sevantibhai says it was not he, but his older son and his wife, who first felt the strong urge to take diksha."

"The extended family was hoping that Sevantibhai would come to his senses, and they were trying to delay his departure till he did. But his determination to go was stronger than their will to hold him back in the world. And now, finally, in a month’s time, all five of them will say good-bye: to samsara, to Bombay, to modernity."

"They will be walking constantly, observing the five vows: no violence, no untruth, no stealing, no sex, no attachments. They will be wearing two white unstitched pieces of cloth, nothing else ... they will have no shoes, no vehicles, no telephone, no electricity. "

"the Diamond Merchants’ Association Hall a few days later, there is a large banner on the wall: HEARTY WELCOME TO THE MOKSHA - STRIVING JEWELS . The renunciates—diksharthis—are to be felicitated by the wealthy community of diamond merchants."

"You would not know the wealth of these men from their clothes."

"Arunbhai, dressed simply in a white half-sleeved shirt but a billionaire in any currency, tells us that a few years ago his mother had also wanted to take diksha. He convinced her against it. But he speaks of the monk’s life with yearning, as something he will have to do sooner or later."

"now, Sevantibhai Chimanlal Ladhani, the dark little man with the easy smile, is not just a moderately successful diamond merchant. He has become a figure of power, a leader on the path that even the billionaire Arunbhai will have to tread sooner or later. At one bound, he has surpassed people far more successful in business than he. He is now, in this hall, in this afternoon, the subject of their admiration, even of their envy."

"a Bombay girl who now will never go to a movie, put on makeup, go on a date, or go to college. She will never return to the city she grew up in."

"an enormous mob, for Sevantibhai and Rakshaben are literally throwing money away. They fling out their arms, scattering rice mixed with gold and silver coins and currency notes ... They are unburdened."

"peasants have been lined up for hours, to get gifts of grain and cloth from Sevantibhai’s fortune."

"Sevantibhai’s guests have been fed for seven days. Today, on the eighth and final day, every single person in the fifty-seven villages of the district of Dhanera has been invited for a grand feast. Thirty-five thousand people sit side by side for the meal—men and women in separate tents ... The village leaders have been instructed to prepare the ingredients using the old ways: the water is from wells, not taps; the oil is pressed by bullocks; the vessels are handmade brass; the ghee is from the local cows, not buffaloes; the sugar and the jaggery are organic; the grain and vegetables have all been grown locally ... On the eve of the twenty-first century, it is still possible to prepare a strictly Jain meal, grown and cooked locally, and feed thirty-five thousand people with minimum harm to the planet."

"During the last meal, the entire extended family—a hundred strong—feed them, one last time, with their hands. After today there can be no pleasure permissible in food"

“I’ve been trying to think, but I keep getting disturbed. I’m thinking, What will I do after tomorrow? Where will I be? I’ve been sick, I have a temperature, and right now I have all the facilities, they’re pressing my arms and my legs, but I think, How will I tolerate this sickness after tomorrow?”

"Big steel plates are put down in a line outside their room, filled with rice, coins, precious stones, and the keys to their various houses. I am standing near the first plate. Sevantibhai emerges at great speed, clad in his most extravagant costume, and kicks aside the plate full of his wealth. Then his wife and children do the same thing, all in a line"

"Sevanti and Raksha have been married for twenty-two years. The last time they touch each other is when Raksha puts the tilak on Sevanti’s face, as she did the first time she touched him—when she married him."

"the first day of their lives as renunciates, they will set out to gather their first meal—they have fasted all the previous day—and the first house they will go to is the Ladhanis’. It is a fitting metaphor for renunciation: The first house you beg in should be the one you’ve left as its owner."

"there is an insurance policy for the Ladhanis in case the path to moksha gets too steep, as has happened with other renunciates. A trust has been set up with four family members as trustees, endowed with a sizable fund ... It will disburse money on Sevantibhai’s instructions. In his wanderings, when he meets needy people or deserving institutions, the trustees will send money to them. “In case the children want to come back, they don’t have to stretch out their hand to anybody." ... It is a strange concept: a wandering monk able to fund a temple or change the fortunes of an entire village ... Is the life of a renunciate made easier or harder when he knows that if he returns to samsara, he can immediately have the goods of life back? Sevantibhai and his family will always have a choice. Each step of their wanderings will be taken out of free will. Whenever they are tired from walking in the hot sun, something at the back of their minds will always be telling them that they can afford to travel in a Rolls-Royce, even now. All they have to do is to admit defeat."

"Seven months after the diksha ceremony, I go to see how Sevantibhai is doing in his life as a monk ... all the hair on his head, face, and lips had been pulled out, hair by hair, tuft by tuft, over a period of several hours ...  His scalp was bleeding."

"He can’t own anything, not even the single cotton sheet he wears on his body. It has to be gifted by a layman."

"I ask him what was the hardest to give up: his family, his wealth, or his house and its comforts? After a long pause, he answers. “Family. The hardest thing to leave was family.”"

" In their wanderings, the monks try to look for unpaved roads, which are getting rarer and rarer ... Every day they walked eighteen miles, five hours in the morning after sunrise and more in the evening ... He shows me the soles of his feet. These are abused feet: cracked, callused, split, and blackened, with layers of skin overlapping each other, cratered like the surface of the moon ... Many sadhus these days die in accidents on the highway"

"There are other orders of Jain monks, such as the Sthanakvasis, who make a voluntary exit from the sinful world. They simply stop eating and invite laypeople to their retreat hall to watch them slowly starve to death. But Sevantibhai’s order is more rigorous. “We don’t have the freedom of suicide. There are no shortcuts to the next birth.” There is one exception, however. If Sevantibhai were to find the pull of samsara too great, if he were unable to follow the rules of the order, suicide is preferable to going back to the world."

"The monks have bad breath—they are forbidden to brush their teeth, as the very purpose of brushing is to kill bacteria—and it is an effort to talk to them at close quarters."

"the younger boy developed jaundice and now is allowed to eat twice a day."

"It is not easy to talk about the Jains without ridiculing them."

"Sevantibhai’s search is rigorous; there is absolutely no room for compromise."

"Wandering through the villages of Gujarat, Sevantibhai is thinking about the great questions, about the purpose and order of the universe, about the stupidity of nationalism, about the atomic nature of reality. More than anybody else I know, he lives with a daily and nagging realization of the amount of violence our species perpetrates, each hour, each minute, not only on our fellow humans but on all life and upon creation itself."

"Sevantibhai has decisively rejected every value held dear by the middle classes: western education, consumerism, nationalism, and, most important, family. But the people he rejected come to him now with reverence; merchants with firms considerably larger than his, who would not have socialized with him in the life he has left, now travel great distances to bow before him and touch his feet"

"some of the most sophisticated epistemology that human beings have ever produced. Where Aristotelian logic admits only two possible states of being for a proposition, that it is true or false—there is no middle ground—Jain logic expands these to no fewer than seven possibilities."

"For a long time afterward, in my life in the cities, I think of Sevantibhai, of the utter final simplicity of his life. In New York I am beset with financial worry ...  Approaching the middle of my life, I feel poorer every day compared to my friends ... I am earning more than I ever have before, and I am also feeling poorer than ever before. Each time it feels like I almost have it within reach at last—financial security (if not wealth), a working family, a career—it slips out of my grasp ..."

"Sevantibhai has just bypassed all this ...  Before anything can be taken from him, he has given it away himself. And I continue on my way, always accumulating the things I will eventually lose and always anxious either about not having enough of them or, when I have them, about losing them. Anxious, too, about death. The greatest violence is your own death—that is, if you fight it. Sevantibhai has even triumphed over death. He has divested himself of everything—family, possessions, pleasure—that is death’s due. All that remains is his body, to which he has renounced title in advance and treats as a borrowed, soiled shirt. He can’t wait to take it off. Sevantibhai has beat death to the end. He has resigned before he could be dismissed."

"Maximum City," Suketu Mehta, 1998,  ISBN 9780307574312

I should mention here that i know many Jains and many in the diamond trade.  Of these, a substantial number are very, very rich people and a surprising number of them do take the diksha path. And never return to samsara, to the world.  They are given great honor, and as Mehta says, billionaires travel to see and bow before them.

But there are very few Jains compared to the masses in India, who all have their separate ways to salvation and to hell.

sidd

« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 10:17:17 AM by sidd »

nanning

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2020, 11:14:53 AM »
Thank you sidd for seriously responding and writing a large post. Nice. I am about to leave so I will further respond tomorrow.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

nanning

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2020, 08:56:24 AM »
I've read your post and recognize some good ideas but I have trouble following the fiction story. I don't know the context, characters and time of that book. I read about very rich monks making strange choices and many questions pop up. Do these people belief in an after-life?
it would be nice to discuss the ideas behind that story. Can you please suggest an idea, or several, from that book?

<It is probably not fiction. Interesting that you class it as such. Also see my post below. kassy>
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 08:13:46 PM by kassy »
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

interstitial

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2020, 09:20:09 AM »

Nanning
Quote
  I observe that what people have been told about the world when they were very young will remain the absolute immovable truth for the rest of their lives.

I doubt most parents would agree with that statement

nanning

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2020, 11:25:03 AM »
You just picked that single thing from my post and have no other comments on it?
I should perhaps have been more specific even though the context of how I meant it was clear from the text. It's about fantasies such as after-life, a God, privileged thinking, hierarchy, tidiness, ownership, ..  and the many things that are seen as 'normal' for civilisation, such as a mother and a father as parents (which is not part of this discussion).
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

oren

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2020, 12:24:28 PM »
Occam's razor.
I have also observed that things drilled deep down into children's beliefs are very hard to shake as adults.

Edit: Removed religion-related stuff.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 02:28:20 PM by oren »

pikaia

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2020, 12:54:25 PM »
It makes good Darwinian sense to believe what you learn from your parents, even without evidence. If they tell you that there are tigers in the forest then if they are correct then it is to your advantage. If they are wrong then you have not really lost anything.

As for the afterlife, this is clearly an example of wishful thinking, aka faith, which we humans are prone to. All aspects of religiosity have a psychological cause.

NeilT

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2020, 02:16:41 PM »
Nanning, you are not happy that someone picks the part of your post that they want to reply to.  This is consistent with the tone of your post.

...

You talk about the scientific principle as if it is the only thing which has brought the advancement of the human race and allowed humans to stand over the rest of the animal kingdom.

This, again, is incorrect.  The single largest break with the animal kingdom came when humans transitioned from nomadic hunter gatherers and became farmers. That, of itself, was not so much scientific as socio political. Finally we evolved as a species where multiple "tribes" could settle, trade and work together.

This, more than any single thing, has driven the ability of humanity to investigate, develop and use science and technology.  It has allowed the ability to develop writing, store knowledge on written material and teach that knowledge to the next generation.

Something the animal kingdom cannot ever do with its hunter gatherer hand to mouth existence.

As the success of this socio political experiment has grown, the science and technology has had to grow with it.  Husbandry of animals and resources, especially water, plus sanitation, has driven technology throughout the ages.

I'm sure that without the black death, the pressure of population and sanitation for cities would have developed the renaissance hundreds of years earlier.  As space and resources hit critical levels.

One of the spin offs of a farming socio political structure is population explosion. Hunter gatherers die young and live lean.  It is a harsh life with danger at every step.  With no buffer of resources you are at the mercy of climate, weather and events such as volcanic disruption.  This means that the social structure has evolved to expect and absorb (or even feed), expansion.
In order to exercise control in a socio political landscape which keeps expanding, there needs to be structure and release of pressure. There also needs to be some level of fear of repercussion.

Whilst monarchies and executions are the harsh face of this structure, there needs to be a level of fear and release which does not come from rigid control, pain and suffering.  This control mechanism has, historically, always been religion.  Religion is the psychological tool used by society before we had the science of the mind.

It takes time to evolve away from these tools and religion is still a useful tool.  Let us consider a planet full of people who fully believe there is nothing beyond this life.  Imagine a planet full of people who live for today only, to the excess that this brings.  If there can be no consequences for an eternity after death, what might some people do?

To put this in context of today, our society today and what it means for policy and solutions for AGW, we are a society tuned to expansion but in transition from the controls which have been used to control the masses.  Our youth no longer accepts the need for strict adherence to rule in order to avoid chaos and our medical science ensures that population explosion is going to continue for quite some time.

Unfortunately religion was also used to instill the ethic to breed and often stands against contraception. Exacerbating the population explosion.

Where does this leave us?

In a very, very, difficult place with no clear path out of it. Our society conditioned to grow, expand and evolve, resources shrinking, a culture of waste all over the planet with the worst waste in the middle ground between the poorest countries and the richest, where every poor country has to go through the worst to get to less waste and pollution.

Those of us who see the advantages of taking our first World tech and placing it direct in the poorest places to avoid the mistakes of our past are overwhelmed by the socio political conditioning which says that the masses cannot attain our level until we have moved oto a much higher level.

For instance, success with nuclear fusion would certainly drive renewable energy in poor countries.

So, Life without?

Not in this world, there is 10,000 years of socio political conditioning working against it and for one person to have a viable life "without", 10 would have to work to make it possible.

Unsurprisingly, the 10 decline.

<Edited out a bit. kassy>
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 08:25:42 PM by kassy »
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

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pikaia

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2020, 04:21:11 PM »
There is absolutely no scientific evidence to support the God hypothesis because the God hypothesis makes no testable predictions.

kassy

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2020, 08:02:22 PM »
Well that escalated quickly. Since religion is not constructively debated on an internet forum i will edit out all the posts about what you (poster) belief.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

kassy

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2020, 08:53:45 PM »
The path taken by the Jains is pretty extreme.

Lets look at numbers. They are few doing a lot so it does not add up very much.
Actually large numbers of people should do without things they do not need. We have tons of unused gadgets, the first world eats somewhere between 5 to 7 planets a year and somehow you can (could) fly to Barcelona from Amsterdam for less then you can take the train to Berlin.

People could also go without throwing their junk food packaging on the street when they are done eating but they are still doing that.

There is a clear lack of awareness of the fact that we can´t do that anymore. But you can generalize that a lot.

 

Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

NeilT

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2020, 12:09:46 AM »
Well that escalated quickly. Since religion is not constructively debated on an internet forum i will edit out all the posts about what you (poster) belief.

NP from me.  I was just responding.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

sidd

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2020, 12:13:56 AM »
1) "Maximum City" is nonfiction. The author, Suketu Mehta, grew up in Bombay but left in his teenage years. The book is an account of his return after a couple decades.

2) There are about ten or fifteen million Jains today, of which around twenty+ thousand have embraced diksha. They believe in reincarnation, and the cycle of rebirth. They believe that "moksha," crudely translated as deliverance from the cycle can be attained. There is much more that can be said, but i'll leave it there for now.

3) I wrote the post to illustrate a draconian example of self abnegation, still practiced by thousands today. There are other sects and other religions, some with even more extreme examples. But i did not want to discuss these sects in detail, rather i am trying to arrive at a view of what a "life without" would look like. The Jains who take diksha show one path.

sidd
 


nanning

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2020, 11:40:56 AM »
Thanks oren and pikaia for your views.
Thank you sidd for giving the context. Sorry that I thought it was fiction (I have not searched the book on the Internet).

Re: Re-incarnation, rebirth (after-life): I have already responded to that fixation which is one of the things that drives these people.
I agree, it is indeed a draconian example. They have very good intentions but are without limits, understanding, balance and calibration imo.

My life choice is to be frugal. To have no affluence. To not participate in bad systems if there's a choice. I can write a list of bad systems. I can write a high morality rules list. I can link frugality to energy need, climate change, health, strength, happiness, physiological functionality, lazyness, social functions, connection with nature, empathy and sanity (psyche).
I have much to say but don't want to set the discussion.

To answer what 'life without' will/may look like, first it is important to define the meaning of "life without". Could you please explain what you mean by it?

I think 'life without' should be in balance with living nature, and as close to living nature as possible because the right path is to go closer to our original make-up for how we are optimized to perform&function concerning psyche, body, behaviour, social functions etc. As close as possible in this civilisation wtith e.g. lack of pristine living nature and many modern things such as the need for an ID and a house. I do not consider homelessness because in current western society that makes you very vulnerable (most civilisation humans have no empathy for homeless people, au contraire) and it probably means the loss of control over your life.

------------------
EDIT: I cannot find the after-life text I wrote yesterday. Writing that text took quite a bit of effort, and now it is gone. kassy, it looks like you have removed it using your moderator powers without consulting me. Why have you broken into my post above and left that comment? I cannot understand why that post was moderated. Especially the after-life text since it was definitely on topic. Can you restore my text or send it to me via PM because I archive those though-out formulations. Let's say to collect them for writing a book or a thesis.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 11:48:31 AM by nanning »
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

be cause

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2020, 01:53:23 PM »
really Kassy ??? I was preparing a reply to Nanning's post and now it is basically gone .. I would rather have Phoenix than this ... b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 
 (phew)

kassy

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2020, 01:56:11 PM »
The Jains are a rather extreme example of living without everything. If the discussion after would have focused on ´living without things´ that would be fine.

Your part about afterlife immediately triggered a discussion about whether or not it/god exists. Since this is a useless subject in general (since none of the parties will ever convince the other and basically it just generates bad feelings) that discussion is not for this Forum.

I deleted 4 or 5 posts just arguing god yes or no and edited several other posts to remove parts about that.

The rest of the discussion should be on life without.


Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

KiwiGriff

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2020, 02:21:34 PM »
So nanning
You don't make use of your country's excellent social welfare provisions ?
Under which any adult citizen of the Netherlands  is entitled to  receive 70%  of the mandated minimum wage of about 20,000 euros a year with further provisions for hard ship and to assist  in providing a roof over their head .
That money comes from and is therefore  taking part of our technological extractive civilization.

You don't like private cars and think we should go without.
in your country it may be possible to have a life without one due to population density, geology and climate.
In many places it may not be so easy to live without a car.
It is less than two kilometres as the crow flys to my work place.
To get there is a  14km drive on a mostly unsealed road around a range of hills that are 100 meters higher than the highest point in your entire country. Last week it rained here 220 mm fell in 12 hours that is three months average rainfall in your country .   NZ has a population density of 15 persons per sqkm for the Netherlands the  population density is 488 per sqkm. There is little public transport in northland  it is simply too uneconomic to provide outside of Whangarei city. A Private car is a necessity not a luxury in NZ outside of the large city's.

You recently complained of usa centric commentators. Me thinks you should also be weary of your own bias for the situation in your own surrounding .

Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
Notebooks of Lazarus Long.
Robert Heinlein.

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2020, 02:35:42 PM »
That money comes from and is therefore  taking part of our technological extractive civilization.

Wait a second, Griff. Are you arguing a welfare state is only possible in a highly technlological country?

I think the one thing has nothing to do with the other.

NeilT

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2020, 03:44:08 PM »
Personally I would have said that KiwiGriff is arguing that the level of welfare and services in such a population dense country is only allowed with modern technological advances.

Prior welfare systems like Rome provided basic subsistence. No more. Rome, of course for the time, was a highly technologically advanced civilisation.

Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2020, 05:12:49 PM »
Apparently Kassy's kingdom is not the place for discussing the divine , reincarnation or the like . Perhaps a similar thread could move to the off-topic realm where castration is saved for the really really naughty . b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 
 (phew)

KiwiGriff

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2020, 08:41:29 PM »
I find nannings hubris grating.
He benefits from his highly developed society yet seeks to pull it down to his level.
An entire society  rejecting the modern world  has been tried before .
Year zero being one example.
The outcome was a horrific toll on human life and dignity.
I chose to live much as nanning does.
I do not think making every one else live as i do is possible without the use of force that would be more destructive to both humanity and the environment as business as usual .
Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
Notebooks of Lazarus Long.
Robert Heinlein.

sidd

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2020, 09:48:32 PM »
1) Re: " define the meaning of "life without". "

That is what i rather hoped this discussion would clarify. What are people willing to give up ? Lets stipulate that clean air, clean water, clean food, adequate clothing and weatherproof shelter are essential. But we can see that there are billions who must do without some or all. (That book i quoted from has some horrific  descriptions of the slums of Bombay, but there are examples closer to home, Flint, Michigan comes to mind)

Apart from the essentials, what then are we willing to give up?

2) Mr. Nanning, if you have a copy of your deleted post, would you send it to me via a direct message. I would like to read it.

sidd

Bruce Steele

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2020, 11:22:57 PM »
When I had a farm stand and counted calories in a crude approximation of calories used ( fuel )  and calories produced ( food ) it seemed that any fuel used for transport to market far exceeded on farm energy costs by large measures.
 Our cars use enormous amounts of energy, even electric cars. I could forgo using a car and get by with maybe an electric bicycle but I couldn’t haul other people’s food around and farming kinda requires transport to market.
 I never have figured any way around it. I know how to feed myself without going anywhere but I have no idea how to make money without transportation costs. I am afraid without money a farm just can’t pay repairs or upkeep and will slowly, or quickly, fail.
 We need to think about walking distance and how markets need to be designed on walking distance scales. We have a hundred years of societies designed around cars to repackage. So much easier to just go get your burger at the drive thru, stop at the Starbucks window crank up the AC and forget about it.

KiwiGriff

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2020, 12:06:31 AM »
The eco modernism vision is for us all to live in highly compact cityscapes and to abandon the country side to food production and nature.
I see that as more threatening to the natural world as it would create society's divorced from nature allowing more degradation of the environment without the many who live within nature and act as guardians.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 07:56:21 AM by KiwiGriff »
Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
Notebooks of Lazarus Long.
Robert Heinlein.

The Walrus

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2020, 12:18:21 AM »
Bruce,

Transport to market has always been the greatest expense in farming.  But it is a necessity to provided food to the populace (and framers earning a living).

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2020, 12:50:47 AM »
Transport to market has always been the greatest expense in farming.

Nope. Always? I mean, for most of time people did their own food obtainment. Things have slowly but exponentially quickly gone to a system where food transport became more and more important. In high civilization this is the case. But high civilization has never been sustainable.
big time oops

sidd

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2020, 07:20:48 AM »
I think an issue here is that without the accoutrements of modern life such as a phone, a car, a computer, it is very difficult to obtain income sufficient to survive with essentials like food, clothing, shelter.

The Jains see this as the fundamental impossibility: to live in the world (samsara) one must participate in the world and all its evils. The Jain answer is that one must give up assurance of survival, or indeed survival at all as the Sthanakvasis in my quote earlier.

What other answers are there ? Here is one:

If one must live in the world, and necessarily do evil to survive, then should not one do good whenever possible ? If i have burned a buncha coal in my life, then should i not atone by planting a tree or returning an acre to pasture ?  I dont need to cultivate that plot with the tree or the acre of corn really, do i ?

sidd


KiwiGriff

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2020, 09:07:49 AM »
We don't need to do anything sidd.
Ultimately you only answer to your self .
The question is what do we think we should do?
 
I have about a hectare of NZ native bush I care for and protect that offsets my emissions. When I moved here the ecology was badly degraded from stock grazing and introduced pests.
 I have added back some of the plant species that the ecology was lacking and reduced the population of some that had an unfair advantage in its former state. I trap the rats, mice, cats, stoats, magpies,hedgehogs  and possums that reduce the  viability of native  species.
I intend to place a conservation covenant on the bush so it will remain an ongoing  carbon sink long after I am dust.

Without?
Guilt.
I intend to leave life knowing I have  left Gaia with more positive than negative from my fleeting existence. She will not care and I do not believe in any concept of afterlife or leave behind a genetic imprint .  I do it for my own peace of mind.

We (kassy) could question if this discussion belongs in policy and solutions.
Our Personal policy's and solutions ,how we have developed and justify them, have a part to play in the future.
Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
Notebooks of Lazarus Long.
Robert Heinlein.

Aporia_filia

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2020, 12:33:45 PM »
I just want to say that I feel close to sidd and kiwi g.
Your assertions and your doubts. We are full of contradictions and ignorance. Trying to do our best is all we should aim.
Things like "having a very high moral" revolves me. Not cos the intentions but for what implies. Is the same thing you would hear in a nuns' school, in sects like Opus Dei.
There are very few absolute facts, any other apart from our future death???
Being human is very hard for most of the total population. You have to survive, to procreate, to feed your family if you follow the natural impulse of your hormones and though your brain. Not to follow that path is frustrating for the animal inside all of us. Some are lucky enough to receive access to education (meaning knowledge) which allow us to see and choose other options.
Obviously those hormones and/or brain structures can make people feel their meaning of life is to dominate, or to accumulate wealth...
As far as we know oscillation around more cooperative or more individualist human groups is part of our history and the search for a better society is as old as societies themselves. A chaotic system, instable equilibrium where you cannot program your future cos you don't and won't ever have enough data to do the calculations.

My experience is that the less you own the more free your spirit feels.

kassy

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2020, 03:50:47 PM »
I think the ´atonement´ (in actual realized carbon etc) is a much better answer to what we can do.
Much easier sell then full renouncement of life.

If we look at an individual level you do run up to limits.

What we need is actually find something the masses could live without. If everybody cut down on the amount of meat that would really help.

Also we need to speed up the transformation to renewable energy. But not just in the US/EU but all around the world.

Whatever i do on my tiny space is easily dwarfed by our dutch Development bank forking out money for some coal projects in Africa. Just put that money into renewables too.

What we can do as individuals runs up to limits and that gets you back to the other thread. If not capitalism then what. I think...


Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

gerontocrat

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2020, 04:13:26 PM »
Many people have "life without"

Some people seek "life without"

Some Many more people will have "life without" thrust upon them?
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Aporia_filia

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2020, 11:10:19 AM »
The lottery of life Gero! 😉
Kassy I love the way you 'seems' to be, ☺, although I cannot concourse with your voluntarism. There are  lots of literature  about our lack of free will. It is a very difficult issue but this one is rather good, to my likings.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dporterfield/2020/07/21/i-am-not-a-believer-in-free-will-a-conversation-with-physicist-brian-greene/

I reckon there's an innate impossibility to keep these talkings into a defined thread, kassy. Sorry for making it difficult for you.

KiwiGriff

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2020, 08:21:54 PM »
This could go many places
Here is as good as any . Well worth a read .
https://essaysconcerning.com/2020/07/22/the-green-electrification-sceptic/

Quote
I support the call for reduced consumption in all its forms, and it should be encouraged as much as possible, but this is not mutually exclusive with electrifying transport and heat. On the contrary, electrification helps in that endeavour, because of increased efficiency and flexilibity. But it needs also to be coupled with approaches that ensure  fair access and market reforms.

We are just a very successful type of ape.
You can not separate our pre programmed imperatives from our actions.
Humans are not logical .
Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
Notebooks of Lazarus Long.
Robert Heinlein.

Aporia_filia

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2020, 12:54:52 PM »
Quote
"We are just a very successful type of ape.
You can not separate our pre programmed imperatives from our actions.
Humans are not logical ."

Agreed! And maybe we should also look at an increasing "life without intelligence"
Known is that high CO2 concentrations limit our intelligence. Also that a whole generation of Americans born around the Great Lakes have a reduced IQ (average) because of the DDT used in agriculture in the 50's and 60's.

And this is of main concern in phycologists and physiatrists' studies:
"These newer studies have strengthened the evidence linking endocrine disruptors to physical and especially neurological health issues,"
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/07/200721184508.htm
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 01:43:40 PM by Aporia_filia »

Sigmetnow

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2020, 09:20:21 PM »
Ancient civilizations managed to survive without our modern conveniences.  What of modern knowledge is essential?
Quote
Andrew Trask (@iamtrask) 7/26/20, 11:41 AM
If you were dropped 2000 years back in time with nothing but the knowledge you have now - what would you do? 
https://twitter.com/iamtrask/status/1287412850479202306
Many and varied Twitter replies at the link.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Freegrass

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2020, 09:45:53 PM »
Ancient civilizations managed to survive without our modern conveniences.  What of modern knowledge is essential?
Quote
Andrew Trask (@iamtrask) 7/26/20, 11:41 AM
If you were dropped 2000 years back in time with nothing but the knowledge you have now - what would you do? 
https://twitter.com/iamtrask/status/1287412850479202306
Many and varied Twitter replies at the link.
When I was in the Philippines five years ago I met someone from a tribe in Papua New Guinea, and I could have gone with him to live with his tribe in the jungle. I still regret not doing that. The timing was very bad.

Point is: You don't need to go back 2000 years. Today there are still people living the same way they have for the past 10.000 years...
If every 8 year old in the world is taught meditation, we will eliminate violence from the world within one generation.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Life Without
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2020, 09:57:26 PM »
People transported back without the knowledge that ancient civilizations maintained to feed themselves would simply perish. It isn’t the knowledge that you could deliver that would be important. Relearning the skills necessary might be harder than you think.