Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change  (Read 798053 times)

ggelsrinc

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 437
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #200 on: November 11, 2013, 04:39:01 PM »
*shaking head sadly* [wondering what in the world to do]  The destruction in the Philippines is... just...
The future.   You scientists have a bigger handle than I do, but this is the type of event that I imagined in my scaredy-cat non-scientist layman imagination when I started reading about this CC stuff in the early 90's.  What next?

Permit me to borrow this piece!

Quote
*shaking head sadly* [wondering what in the world to do]

Speaking as an individual American, I don't know if global warming was involved and who gives two sh!ts? The important thing is people are suffering and they are a great people, just like everybody else.

I appeal to every American, every Catholic and human being on Earth to examine these people based on their character and help them in their time of need. I'm not talking about this recent disaster when it comes to their character, I'm talking about their history and what a person should know about a great people with so many unsung heros, it's unbelievable.

This recent disaster made me think about something I wondered long ago. Why isn't there a system to instantly transfer money owned by an individual to other banks around our world? Banks don't get charged electrons to transfer small or large amounts of money, so why don't they cooperate during times of disaster allowing people to give and transfer their money cost free? With the problems our world faces, banks should be on the front lines saying "give a penny, a dime, a dollar or many dollars" and we'll support you transferring your money to a needy place, free of charge. It isn't how much you give that counts, it's just giving a damn.   

wili

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3206
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 577
  • Likes Given: 387
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #201 on: November 11, 2013, 08:23:24 PM »
I'm just glad there weren't any nuclear plants in the path of that thing.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

ggelsrinc

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 437
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #202 on: November 11, 2013, 08:49:54 PM »
I'm just glad there weren't any nuclear plants in the path of that thing.

It wouldn't hurt a Thorium MSR, even with a rocket launcher.

wili

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3206
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 577
  • Likes Given: 387
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #203 on: November 11, 2013, 11:19:33 PM »
Glad to hear the next-generation, right-around-corner brand of nukes will be the ones that are perfectly and absolutely safe and will save all mankind.

(But it seems to me I have heard promises like these before...oh, yeah! I remember now. That's what they've been saying since the beginning of the nuclear era. Hasn't worked out quite like that so far, but I'm sure this time will be different.  ;))
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

ggelsrinc

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 437
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #204 on: November 12, 2013, 12:58:01 AM »
Glad to hear the next-generation, right-around-corner brand of nukes will be the ones that are perfectly and absolutely safe and will save all mankind.

(But it seems to me I have heard promises like these before...oh, yeah! I remember now. That's what they've been saying since the beginning of the nuclear era. Hasn't worked out quite like that so far, but I'm sure this time will be different.  ;))

Promises, my ass, educate yourself! The man in charge of making the first two commercial nuclear reactor designs was asked to make a nuclear reactor for an airplane and these developments happened when we were children, if you were even born then.

What makes a person like you, go to a forum called Policies and Solutions and intentionally disagree with every possible solution to our present problems? Go to the Biochar thread, if that question is too confusing for you! What the hell is wrong with the Doomsdayer mind?

A troll isn't someone who disagrees with you on a discussion forum, it's a person who disrupts the forum by making things personal, instead of discussing the subject. You're a cheerleader kind of person without creative ideas. I'm a person trained in science and many other things with many ideas. Go play with the kids, you're not in my league and are a waste of my time on Earth! This place is about science and there are plenty of political sites with forums about environmental or other issues. I came hear by request to discuss the science and not to debate stupid things. If you want a debate, pick a political forum, announce it, and walk to your grave! I've been there, done that, on many subjects. To me, it's light work.

wili

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3206
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 577
  • Likes Given: 387
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #205 on: November 12, 2013, 05:23:29 AM »
You are obviously overwrought.

Sorry to ruffle your feathers.

Come back when you have managed to compose yourself.

Meanwhile, there are events that are actually worth getting worked up about going on:

Quote
Bloomberg Industries is estimating insured damages of $2 billion and total economic damages of $14 billion, making Haiyan the most expensive natural disaster in Philippines history.

This is the third time in the past 12 months the Philippines have set a new record for their most expensive natural disaster in history.

The record was initially set by Typhoon Bopha of December 2012, with $1.7 billion in damage; that record was beaten by the $2.2 billion in damage done by the August 2013 floods on Luzon caused by moisture associated with Typhoon Trami.

http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=2576#commenttop


Quote
On the outskirts of Tacloban City, a coastal eastern city of 220,000 where tsunami-like waves destroyed many buildings, Edward Gualberto accidentally stepped on bodies as he raided the wreckage of a home.

Wearing nothing but a pair of red basketball trousers, the father-of-four and village councillor apologized for his shabby appearance and for stealing from the dead.

"I am a decent person. But if you have not eaten in 3 days, you do shameful things to survive," Gualberto told AFP as he dug canned goods from the debris and flies swarmed over the bodies.

"We have no food, we need water and other things to survive."

After half a day's work, he had filled a bag with an assortment of essentials including packs of spaghetti, cans of beer, detergent, soap, canned goods, biscuits and candies.

"This typhoon has stripped us of our dignity... but I still have my family and I am thankful for that."...

http://www.rappler.com/move-ph/issues/disasters/typhoon-yolanda/43381-tormented-typhoon-victims-scour-for-food-yolanda

And here's another much-watch piece. Are the major media outlets starting to get a clue??

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-12/philippines-typhoon-transforms-tacloban-into-wasteland/5085222
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 07:25:15 AM by wili »
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7756
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1133
  • Likes Given: 521
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #206 on: November 12, 2013, 06:09:40 PM »
Take it easy, ggelsrinc.

Everyone here, including Van Jones (see below), are all for Gen IV nuclear reactors. And although I fear Jevon's Paradox somewhat, I'm in favour of it as well. But unfortunately it's not that simple.

Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

wili

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3206
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 577
  • Likes Given: 387
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #207 on: November 12, 2013, 11:36:36 PM »
(Thanks, Neven. I also am not exactly against gen4. I just have a bit of an admittedly knee-jerk reaction against claims that any one techonology is promised to be perfectly safe, to have not down sides or unintended consequences and to essentially save humanity from itself--just saw essentially that claim at RC. I've just seen that commercial too many times over the years in its various forms to react with anything other than deep cynicism. Apologies if my initial comment threw the thread a bit off topic.)
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

ggelsrinc

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 437
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #208 on: November 13, 2013, 12:10:10 AM »
Take it easy, ggelsrinc.

Everyone here, including Van Jones (see below), are all for Gen IV nuclear reactors. And although I fear Jevon's Paradox somewhat, I'm in favour of it as well. But unfortunately it's not that simple.



A well placed shot in front of the bow is as easy as it comes. I've made it clear I'm here to discuss science and don't believe the world will end tomorrow. I believe we have solutions tabled, because of various reasons. I don't know if global warming is the greatest threat mankind has ever faced compared to Toba, but who would want it to go that far to find out?

It's easy to understand why people are afraid of nuclear, but reality dictates there is not one element in the universe that doesn't have radioactive isotopes. If Thorium MSRs are Gen IV, it's only because we spent three generations not building them.

No problem facing humanity has ever been simple and I'm not suggesting a one size fits all solution. Fossil fuels are definitely not a solution and we may have to remove our past CO2 emissions to have a solution. There are other great solutions that can't work everywhere.

Thorium MSRs are not anything new and they can't have a meltdown. I'm fairly sure this is the link, but my present connectivity problems kept me from verifying it. The present designs of commercial nuclear reactors are dinosaurs and dangerous. All nuclear reactors aren't high pressure needing special confinement.   

http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/servlets/purl/4093364-qQG01M/4093364.pdf

 

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7756
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1133
  • Likes Given: 521
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #209 on: November 13, 2013, 06:32:56 AM »
Quote
A well placed shot in front of the bow is as easy as it comes. I've made it clear I'm here to discuss science and don't believe the world will end tomorrow.

Which is fine, but you don't have to go and insult people or let them know that you judge their actions (the judging is OK, everyone does that, but communicating it, is where it gets tricky, especially on the Internet), in the name of science. Science is not asking this of you.

Other than that, no problems.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

icebgone

  • New ice
  • Posts: 58
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #210 on: November 19, 2013, 04:38:21 AM »
Weird weather story:  I spent part of my Sunday in the basement because of a severe weather outbreak here in MidAmerica.  More than 40 Tornadoes visited MidAmerica resulting in 6 fatalities, multiple injuries and About 1 Billion in property damage.  First time a system with this amount of energy has happened in late November.  A more typical time would be late May or early June.  The temp reached 26.5 C also common in early June.  At least one of the tornadoes had a measured wind speed of 320-340 kph.  Unfortunately, it came down in a populated area.  I know that you can not link any one weather item to atmospheric warming but the number of recent one-of-a-kind weather events is getting long.  Hope everyone else is doing well.

Anonymouse

  • New ice
  • Posts: 60
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #211 on: November 19, 2013, 07:17:11 AM »
Hi Icebgone,  glad you are out of that mess and safe.  I have lots of family in that swath and really feel for you..

Neven, thanks.

JimD

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2270
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #212 on: November 19, 2013, 03:50:11 PM »
Sardinia  17 inches of rain in 24 hours

Quote
...The Mediterranean island of Sardinia, prized by the jet-set for its white sand beaches and crystal-clear seas, was a flood-ravaged mudbath Tuesday after a freak torrential rainstorm killed at least 17 people, downed bridges and swept away cars....

...received more than 44 centimeters (17.3 inches) of rain in 24 hours Monday — half the amount it normally receives in a year — officials said....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/19/sardinia-storm-apocalyptic-floods-italy_n_4301459.html
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

Anonymouse

  • New ice
  • Posts: 60
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #213 on: November 19, 2013, 10:37:44 PM »
Hi JimD, I am pretty sure you are in my neck of the woods, so to speak.  What are your thoughts on the water issue?  What kind of scenarios do you see with your (I think) used-to-be-a-small-town of now just under a million and growing?

EDIT: This question is kinda OT, sorry everyone.  I do want to still discuss the impacts of weird weather.  Midwest tornadoes, Sardinian rain, bring it on!
« Last Edit: November 19, 2013, 10:43:37 PM by Anonymouse »

ggelsrinc

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 437
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #214 on: November 20, 2013, 12:29:00 AM »
Hi JimD, I am pretty sure you are in my neck of the woods, so to speak.  What are your thoughts on the water issue?  What kind of scenarios do you see with your (I think) used-to-be-a-small-town of now just under a million and growing?

EDIT: This question is kinda OT, sorry everyone.  I do want to still discuss the impacts of weird weather.  Midwest tornadoes, Sardinian rain, bring it on!

I would have said many years ago, send Great Lake's and river's waters down there on a grander scale than our ancestors did, who knew how to irrigate, but the idea is too simple. It isn't that expensive to provide needed water to land producing products. It's expensive to neglect it and a choice of only one possible solution to the problem isn't hard to choose. At a certain point, we can make water flow without pumping it, so why can't we pump it over mountains? They never built a solution, only the river damned up starving Mexico of water. It takes more than that. 

I don't live in either areas, but I live, at least in my mind, where people are kind to each other. I do my best and that's all anyone can ask of another person.

Anonymouse

  • New ice
  • Posts: 60
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #215 on: November 20, 2013, 02:35:05 AM »
Well, I agree in principle, but the Anasazi and Jared Diamond would probably disagree.  Also, the folks living in the Mississippi delta would also object, especially after this past year or two.
Best to you, ggel.

P.S.  The Oglalla is in trouble and the northwestern part of the US is not getting the type of snowpack that the southwest depends on for water, according to what I hear (not a scientist).  Lovely future all around....

« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 03:42:25 AM by Anonymouse »

JimD

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2270
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #216 on: November 20, 2013, 05:17:58 AM »
Hi JimD, I am pretty sure you are in my neck of the woods, so to speak.  What are your thoughts on the water issue?  What kind of scenarios do you see with your (I think) used-to-be-a-small-town of now just under a million and growing?

EDIT: This question is kinda OT, sorry everyone.  I do want to still discuss the impacts of weird weather.  Midwest tornadoes, Sardinian rain, bring it on!

Anon,

I live in Prescott, AZ.  Where do you live?  Prescott is about 40,000 and the whole county is about 120,000.  Did you think I live in Phoenix?  It is way above a million as the metro Phoenix area is above 4 million.

We have water problems up the yazoo for the whole region.  Some places worse than others.  But it is worth pointing out that real water conservation is not really practiced here yet (but it will be) so there is a lot that conservation can do.  In our area some towns have plenty of water and others are already getting short.  But everyone is for development - all the business people and politicians in any case.

But the long-term drought seems to have settled in already and things are going to get tight over time.  Prescott last saw a year with average rainfall in 1998.  The last 15 years have averaged about 74% of the average since the 1890's.  A bad sign. 

We are not on the Colorado drainage here but those who are are looking at real trouble in another year or two if the mountains don't get a lot of snow the next couple of years.
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

ggelsrinc

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 437
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #217 on: November 20, 2013, 07:27:42 AM »
Well, I agree in principle, but the Anasazi and Jared Diamond would probably disagree.  Also, the folks living in the Mississippi delta would also object, especially after this past year or two.
Best to you, ggel.

P.S.  The Oglalla is in trouble and the northwestern part of the US is not getting the type of snowpack that the southwest depends on for water, according to what I hear (not a scientist).  Lovely future all around....

We invited the Anasazi to our counsel about water requests, but they didn't show up and rumor has it, they will show up when Jared Diamond starts sh!ting tomahawks. The band we sent out to look for him with Ex Lax hasn't returned safely yet, but we're hoping.

Is there any rule, all the water has to go to the ocean or mankind can only screw up a planet one way? Let's experiment!

Shared Humanity

  • Guest
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #218 on: November 20, 2013, 06:45:15 PM »
Hi JimD, I am pretty sure you are in my neck of the woods, so to speak.  What are your thoughts on the water issue?  What kind of scenarios do you see with your (I think) used-to-be-a-small-town of now just under a million and growing?

EDIT: This question is kinda OT, sorry everyone.  I do want to still discuss the impacts of weird weather.  Midwest tornadoes, Sardinian rain, bring it on!

I would have said many years ago, send Great Lake's and river's waters down there on a grander scale than our ancestors did, who knew how to irrigate, but the idea is too simple. It isn't that expensive to provide needed water to land producing products. It's expensive to neglect it and a choice of only one possible solution to the problem isn't hard to choose. At a certain point, we can make water flow without pumping it, so why can't we pump it over mountains? They never built a solution, only the river damned up starving Mexico of water. It takes more than that. 

I don't live in either areas, but I live, at least in my mind, where people are kind to each other. I do my best and that's all anyone can ask of another person.

Last winter Lake Michigan reached the lowest recorded level ever and has had below average sea levels for 14 years. Despite near record levels of precipitation the level dropped again last winter. This is due to record levels of evaporation as Lake Michigan no longer freezes in the winter. This will not change. Do not look to the Great Lakes as any kind of solution to the problems of desertification that are rapidly coming to the U.S. Southwest and Great Plains.

ggelsrinc

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 437
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #219 on: November 20, 2013, 07:18:37 PM »
Hi JimD, I am pretty sure you are in my neck of the woods, so to speak.  What are your thoughts on the water issue?  What kind of scenarios do you see with your (I think) used-to-be-a-small-town of now just under a million and growing?

EDIT: This question is kinda OT, sorry everyone.  I do want to still discuss the impacts of weird weather.  Midwest tornadoes, Sardinian rain, bring it on!
 

I would have said many years ago, send Great Lake's and river's waters down there on a grander scale than our ancestors did, who knew how to irrigate, but the idea is too simple. It isn't that expensive to provide needed water to land producing products. It's expensive to neglect it and a choice of only one possible solution to the problem isn't hard to choose. At a certain point, we can make water flow without pumping it, so why can't we pump it over mountains? They never built a solution, only the river damned up starving Mexico of water. It takes more than that. 

I don't live in either areas, but I live, at least in my mind, where people are kind to each other. I do my best and that's all anyone can ask of another person.

Last winter Lake Michigan reached the lowest recorded level ever and has had below average sea levels for 14 years. Despite near record levels of precipitation the level dropped again last winter. This is due to record levels of evaporation as Lake Michigan no longer freezes in the winter. This will not change. Do not look to the Great Lakes as any kind of solution to the problems of desertification that are rapidly coming to the U.S. Southwest and Great Plains.

I'm aware of that and how much water flows over Niagara Falls and down the Mississippi River. I'm also aware water can fill an aquifer more easily than it can be pumped out of it.

I'm also aware problems can have solutions and it's the job of human beings to find solutions and not use problems just to complain about things. Is there something wrong with doing things that will logically work, instead of claiming the whole world is hopeless and there is no use to even try anything?


ritter

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 547
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 8
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #220 on: November 20, 2013, 07:32:43 PM »
I'm also aware water can fill an aquifer more easily than it can be pumped out of it.
Your awareness is completely backwards on this. If this were the case, aquifer depletion wouldn't be a worldwide problem.

I'm also aware problems can have solutions and it's the job of human beings to find solutions and not use problems just to complain about things. Is there something wrong with doing things that will logically work, instead of claiming the whole world is hopeless and there is no use to even try anything?
Generally, the solutions we find to such problems are at the expense of the other creatures we share this rock with and our own environment. Your kind of thinking is what has gotten us to the point of 7 billion humans scrounging around in a desperate bid to use the last of our home's bounty. It's time for a different perspective.

Shared Humanity

  • Guest
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #221 on: November 20, 2013, 07:45:08 PM »

I'm also aware problems can have solutions and it's the job of human beings to find solutions and not use problems just to complain about things. Is there something wrong with doing things that will logically work, instead of claiming the whole world is hopeless and there is no use to even try anything?

I am not saying the world is hopeless. I am merely stating that your suggested solution does not, in fact, address the problem. It only addresses a symptom of the problem.

I have a 35 year career in business. When problems occur, they are never more then symptoms of a deeper problem. This is true of any problem that occurs in any business. The key to solving the problem is to dig deeply to find the root cause and correcting this root cause. Any other approach is futile as this root cause is resulting in problems that occur throughout the business. When you simply fix the symptom, the root cause will continue to cause ever more serious problems.

Your solution is not a solution, it is a fix, a band aid and really quite useless.

AGW is a serious problem with symptoms that are manifesting themselves all over the planet. Building sea walls around cities addresses a symptom. Draining the Great Lakes to deliver water to the Southwest is the same. None of these fixes will deliver us from our fate and, as long as we do not address the root cause, the symptoms will become more numerous and more severe.

In business, it can often be very difficult to identify the root cause but the effort will pay off as correcting the root cause will not only fix the problem you are focused on but it will fix problems throughout the organization that have not yet caught your attention.

We are fortunate in that the worldwide scientific community has discovered the root cause of our problem. AGW is caused by rapidly rising levels of CO2 in our atmosphere as a result of our burning fossil fuels. I am hopeful but not if we continue to have people propose solutions like yours. The solution is simple. Stop burning fossil fuels. Any, and I mean any, other solutions are pointless unless we first address the root cause.

Now, how much water goes over the Niagara Falls? And what is the price of tea in China?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 07:52:20 PM by Shared Humanity »

wili

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3206
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 577
  • Likes Given: 387
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #222 on: November 20, 2013, 08:24:17 PM »
Nicely put (as usual), SH.

I can't remember who said it, but there is quote that says something like: "The origins of most problems is solutions."

I would just add to your point that scientist were able to get to the root physical cause of AGW. The yet deeper question is how and why did modern industrial civilization end up creating this (and a number of other) global unfolding catastrophes. But pondering that question may lead us well beyond the basic topic of this thread.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

ggelsrinc

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 437
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #223 on: November 20, 2013, 08:43:20 PM »
What if we had all the cheap energy that wasn't polluting our planet, would mankind still be damned for using it to make things better?

I don't see people claiming mankind is the problem giving up their lives to solve what they claim is the root problem. We have comets coming, so I may be premature on that assessment.

If we want to get off the CO2 bandwagon, we are going to have to go nuclear and safe nuclear that doesn't proliferate nuclear weapons is the only answer to base load electricity. All alternative solutions to carbon are fine, but they can't fulfill the simple requirement that electricity has to be produced based on demand, without large production of electricity.

I'm not into the dream of making the world a better place by causing human beings to become extinct, which some people think is the only solution. I try to spend my life helping people and not wishing them harm.

Since I've went totally OT, what can I say? I think the effort to convince another person that we have already destroyed our planet by claiming weird weather is proof of anything is nonsense. Let's try reality for a change!

Weird weather has always been around during my life. It wasn't weird weather events that taught me about climate change in my area, it was simple observation. The climate here is warmer during the winter than it was in the past, amongst other things. Since I live on a peninsula where water governs extremes, my senses should tell me if things have changed and they have. There is no doubt our climate has changed and only an idiot living here would think otherwise.

So let's say we are already doomed by what has been done and there is no way out of our fate. Why waste your last days on Earth, bitching and complaining to a fool who doesn't see the world as you do? Talking about ultimate disaster or weather anecdotal stories isn't going to convince them and since it's all hopeless, what is the point?

If there is the slightest chance of hope, preaching to the choir is wasted effort. Why not use that effort on political sites that seem to be dominated by crackpots claiming things only a moron would believe, but they are there in abundance trying to breed more morons?

Let's discuss science! 

   

ritter

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 547
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 8
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #224 on: November 20, 2013, 08:52:17 PM »
Let's discuss science! 

The science says we are in real trouble from the perspectives of food supply, destruction of marine environments, climate change, energy, antibiotic resistant disease, overpopulation, inadequate water supplies, deforestation, destruction of pollinators and on and on and on.

Proposed grandeous solutions to these problems will fail. We haven't the time, energy or technology to implement them. This is living in reality.

ggelsrinc

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 437
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #225 on: November 20, 2013, 08:56:57 PM »
Let's discuss science! 

The science says we are in real trouble from the perspectives of food supply, destruction of marine environments, climate change, energy, antibiotic resistant disease, overpopulation, inadequate water supplies, deforestation, destruction of pollinators and on and on and on.

Proposed grandeous solutions to these problems will fail. We haven't the time, energy or technology to implement them. This is living in reality.

The science says quitters never win.

ritter

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 547
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 8
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #226 on: November 20, 2013, 09:03:48 PM »
GG said: The science says quitters never win.

Where did I say I'm quitting?

Christ, man. I've got a 10 year old daughter that I have to get through this. But I'm not going to manage to do that filling my eyes and ears with unicorn rainbows. The time to pay attention to reality is now. Science fiction won't cut it.

ggelsrinc

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 437
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #227 on: November 20, 2013, 09:13:25 PM »
GG said: The science says quitters never win.

Where did I say I'm quitting?

Christ, man. I've got a 10 year old daughter that I have to get through this. But I'm not going to manage to do that filling my eyes and ears with unicorn rainbows. The time to pay attention to reality is now. Science fiction won't cut it.

Go to a political site and stop preaching to the choir! Having any of my 6 children 10 years old, would put me back in the unicorn rainbow days.

If you can't investigate solutions, it's your problem!

Anonymouse

  • New ice
  • Posts: 60
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #228 on: November 20, 2013, 09:43:30 PM »
Hi JimD,
I don't live there anymore, but I thought you were in Tucson.  Yep, northern AZ has it's own unique set of worries! I was shocked when I went to Phantom Ranch for my honeymoon and found out how much water (granted, that is north of you) had to be trucked in to some of the surrounding areas...
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 10:03:10 PM by Anonymouse »

ritter

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 547
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 8
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #229 on: November 20, 2013, 10:18:29 PM »
If you can't investigate solutions, it's your problem!

This from a guy with 6 kids?! (That's not really fair of me, given your generation, but still a valid indication of how we got here)

Don't you see the problem is too many people? There are zero solutions that continue our way of life at current and future population levels in the face of peak oil and climate change. Science has told us this for years but we keep hurtling toward the cliff regardless.

wili

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3206
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 577
  • Likes Given: 387
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #230 on: November 20, 2013, 10:56:00 PM »
+10

Back to the putative topic of the thread:

http://www.weather.com/news/tornado-central/midwest-tornado-outbreak-communities-come-together-20131119

Midwest Tornado Outbreak: At Least 55 Tornadoes Confirmed So Far

Quote
The tornadoes killed six people in Illinois, the most to die in tornadoes on a single November day in the state. Two of the twisters, including the one with a 46-mile path that devastated neighborhoods in the central Illinois community of Washington, received a preliminary designation of EF4. The state has never seen an EF4 — the second-strongest rating given to twisters, indicating wind speeds between 166 to 200 mph — in November, according to weather records.

These are beyond "weird weather." These are weather disasters never before seen in these part at this time of year.

Something has shifted.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Anonymouse

  • New ice
  • Posts: 60
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #231 on: November 20, 2013, 11:23:27 PM »
hi Wili,
Yes, I keep hearing a lot about how unusual this type of storm and resulting tornadoes is for this area in November.  I grew up there so am interested to see how the snow/cold weather/snowpack will be this winter in places in the US that depend on it later in the year for water.

wili

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3206
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 577
  • Likes Given: 387
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #232 on: November 20, 2013, 11:30:54 PM »
I can understand tornadoes coming earlier in the year as things are getting warmer. But I must admit that these very late season tornadoes feel particularly freaky, odd, and unexpected. Has anyone been studying why they should be coming at this time of year? From what I've seen, their response to GW is particularly hard to model.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Shared Humanity

  • Guest
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #233 on: November 21, 2013, 02:16:37 AM »
Nicely put (as usual), SH.

I can't remember who said it, but there is quote that says something like: "The origins of most problems is solutions."

I would just add to your point that scientist were able to get to the root physical cause of AGW. The yet deeper question is how and why did modern industrial civilization end up creating this (and a number of other) global unfolding catastrophes. But pondering that question may lead us well beyond the basic topic of this thread.

This is exactly how these kinds of inquiries solve problems and your diving deeper is how true root causes can be identified and corrected.

wili

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3206
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 577
  • Likes Given: 387
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #234 on: November 21, 2013, 02:29:39 AM »
Oops. That should have been "are solutions." We are rats chasing our tails.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Shared Humanity

  • Guest
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #235 on: November 21, 2013, 06:29:35 AM »
What if we had all the cheap energy that wasn't polluting our planet, would mankind still be damned for using it to make things better?

I don't see people claiming mankind is the problem giving up their lives to solve what they claim is the root problem. We have comets coming, so I may be premature on that assessment.

If we want to get off the CO2 bandwagon, we are going to have to go nuclear and safe nuclear that doesn't proliferate nuclear weapons is the only answer to base load electricity. All alternative solutions to carbon are fine, but they can't fulfill the simple requirement that electricity has to be produced based on demand, without large production of electricity.

I'm not into the dream of making the world a better place by causing human beings to become extinct, which some people think is the only solution. I try to spend my life helping people and not wishing them harm.

Since I've went totally OT, what can I say? I think the effort to convince another person that we have already destroyed our planet by claiming weird weather is proof of anything is nonsense. Let's try reality for a change!

Weird weather has always been around during my life. It wasn't weird weather events that taught me about climate change in my area, it was simple observation. The climate here is warmer during the winter than it was in the past, amongst other things. Since I live on a peninsula where water governs extremes, my senses should tell me if things have changed and they have. There is no doubt our climate has changed and only an idiot living here would think otherwise.

So let's say we are already doomed by what has been done and there is no way out of our fate. Why waste your last days on Earth, bitching and complaining to a fool who doesn't see the world as you do? Talking about ultimate disaster or weather anecdotal stories isn't going to convince them and since it's all hopeless, what is the point?

If there is the slightest chance of hope, preaching to the choir is wasted effort. Why not use that effort on political sites that seem to be dominated by crackpots claiming things only a moron would believe, but they are there in abundance trying to breed more morons?

Let's discuss science! 

 

I am tired of reading your pompous drivel.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7756
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1133
  • Likes Given: 521
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #236 on: November 21, 2013, 08:10:09 AM »
I am tired of reading your pompous drivel.

Then don't read it!  ;)
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Shared Humanity

  • Guest
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #237 on: November 22, 2013, 03:34:09 AM »
I am tired of reading your pompous drivel.

Then don't read it!  ;)

You're right. Simple solutions to simple problems. ::)

Anonymouse

  • New ice
  • Posts: 60
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #238 on: November 23, 2013, 12:21:42 AM »
Here is another record, not catastrophic but significant for the record (last was 1884) from Wunderground:

"... Record daily maximum rainfall set at Yuma AZ...

a record rainfall of 0.33 inch(es) was set at Yuma AZ yesterday.
This breaks the old record of 0.23 inch(es) set in 1884."


http://www.wunderground.com/US/AZ/023.html#WAT

ccgwebmaster

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1085
  • Civilisation collapse - what are you doing?
    • View Profile
    • CCG Website
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #239 on: November 27, 2013, 06:23:08 PM »
I am tired of reading your pompous drivel.

Then don't read it!  ;)

You're right. Simple solutions to simple problems. ::)

The site has a rather nice ignore user function that cuts reams of drivel into a single line saying you're ignoring the user.

My only regret is that it still flags as unread forums and topics in which the only recent contribution is one made by a user you are ignoring. Still, it's nice...

Shared Humanity

  • Guest
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #240 on: November 29, 2013, 07:03:04 PM »
I will take a look at this feature.

I would like to say that I chose the words "pompous drivel" carefully. It was meant to be descriptive and not insulting although it likely served both functions.

Definitions:

Pompous (adj.): having or showing the attitude of people who speak and behave in a very formal and serious way because they believe that they are better, smarter, or more important than other people

Drivel (noun): long, boring, often meaningless rambling

wili

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3206
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 577
  • Likes Given: 387
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #241 on: November 30, 2013, 10:41:48 AM »
"The site has a rather nice ignore user function"

How does one access that, exactly?
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Laurent

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2538
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 6
  • Likes Given: 35
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #242 on: November 30, 2013, 10:50:35 AM »
I guess it is here :
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=profile;area=lists;u=85
I haven't done that yet, I can sort the things out without ! just do not answer to the trolls !

wili

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3206
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 577
  • Likes Given: 387
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #243 on: November 30, 2013, 11:28:07 AM »
Thanks, L. I also assumed there was some button on the profile page for that function, but I don't see one there. (But I am often blind to the obvious--where on the profile page are you seeing an 'ignore' button?)
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Laurent

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2538
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 6
  • Likes Given: 35
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #244 on: November 30, 2013, 12:58:57 PM »
Click on profile then "modify profile">buddies list/ignore list then choose edit ignore list and fill the blank (choose well).

ccgwebmaster

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1085
  • Civilisation collapse - what are you doing?
    • View Profile
    • CCG Website
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #245 on: November 30, 2013, 04:24:56 PM »
"The site has a rather nice ignore user function"

How does one access that, exactly?

Profile -> Modify Profile -> Buddies/Ignore List (at the bottom of the modify profile menu).

wili

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3206
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 577
  • Likes Given: 387
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #246 on: November 30, 2013, 08:23:52 PM »
Thanks. I didn't realize the "buddy" button had a toggle to it. I still probably won't employ it, but it's nice to know it's an option.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Laurent

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2538
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 6
  • Likes Given: 35

idunno

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 187
  • wonders are many
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #248 on: December 20, 2013, 04:05:02 PM »
And another, from the same source, but concentrating on the US:

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/dec/20/2013-climate-change-review-obama-fracking

bligh8

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 313
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 56
  • Likes Given: 4
Re: Weird Weather and anecdotal stories about climate change
« Reply #249 on: December 23, 2013, 04:56:12 PM »
http://m.theday.com/article/20131223/NWS13/312239955/1070/mobile&template=mobile

I’ve seen these type of temperature fluctuations locally before. ie temps in the 70s on Dec.25 in the early 1970s.

But never have I seen wild temperatures and conditions across the US and Canada like what we are seeing today.

Is this a portent of things to come?