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Author Topic: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2  (Read 1302 times)

NeilT

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As well as lowering emissions?

In reality, we're going to need carbon sinks as well as reducing emissions as we need to lower the atmospheric content as well as just stopping growing it.

This article from Jean-Marc Jancovici seems to intimate that it simply isn't possible.

Quote
Can’t we just grow forests to compensate for our CO2 emissions?

https://jancovici.com/en/climate-change/ghg-and-carbon-cycle/cant-we-just-grow-forests-to-compensate-for-our-co2-emissions/

Granted we can't just grow forests and keep burning, that is nonsense.  But we could grow forests, build them into the ecosystem, use them to lock the carbon in with infrastructure, furniture etc, then keep growing and managing them.

After all it is going to take centuries to rebalance the atmospheric CO2 properly.

Something Jancovici says about needing 2 x the Sahara rang a bell with the figures.  He states the figure for our emissions.  But I remember that

Quote
When carbon dioxide CO2 is released into the atmosphere from the burning of fossil fuels, approximately 50% remains in the atmosphere, while 25% is absorbed by land plants and trees, and the other 25% is absorbed into certain areas of the ocean

https://sos.noaa.gov/datasets/ocean-atmosphere-co2-exchange/

So, in fact, if we were to put the effort in, generating natural carbon sinks like the Sahara with solar powered desalination and clean energy management/harvesting, seems to me to be a viable contributing strategy to rebalancing our atmosphere once we stop poisoning it.  Or even alongside not poisoning it.

Thoughts?
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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2020, 11:57:10 AM »
- Increasing amount and severity of wildfires.
- Forest ecosystems break down/degenerate will influence tree growth and health.
- Off-balance ecosystems decrease natural predators of tree parasites.
- Rising temperatures will go higher than tolerance of many tree species.
- Natural sinks such as the Amazon (rain)forest are turning into a source.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 12:02:26 PM by nanning »
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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2020, 12:19:56 PM »
we need 7-8 billion nannings rather than all this .. b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 + 1 =  ' if only we could have seen it coming ' ...

El Cid

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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2020, 12:59:56 PM »
Regenerative agriculture can put huge amounts of carbon into the soil. A much more viable solution than planting forests. Although, I am all for forests I must tell you.
If all the lawns in the developed world would be turned into fruit/food-forests we could also sink lots of carbon, get better food for all, need less water and wouldn't need to use fertilizers that end up in the lakes and oceans, destroying their ecosystems. So STOP LAWNS, plant food forests in their place!

NeilT

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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2020, 01:35:28 PM »
- Increasing amount and severity of wildfires.
- Forest ecosystems break down/degenerate will influence tree growth and health.
- Off-balance ecosystems decrease natural predators of tree parasites.
- Rising temperatures will go higher than tolerance of many tree species.
- Natural sinks such as the Amazon (rain)forest are turning into a source.

Those are all the problems of runaway CO2 emissions and no control.

What I asked was whether going for a strong managed forest solution, in places where people do not live or farm today, as a CO2 cleansing activity to complement and carry on from CO2 emissions removal, would be a good thing to do today.

Dismissing something beneficial because it won't "solve" the problem doesn't meant that it is not beneficial to manage CO2 going forward as we, firstly, reduce our emissions and then stop them altogether.

It seems to be a winner to me.  But people need to think laterally instead of vertically.

After all, we're going to 450ppm for certain, maybe more, when sustainable CO2 is estimated at 350ppm.

What's the plan for getting it back down again?  Because we know that 450 is way too high to retain the  liveable biosphere for even 7.7bn people.
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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2020, 02:06:44 PM »

What I asked was whether going for a strong managed forest solution, in places where people do not live or farm today, as a CO2 cleansing activity to complement and carry on from CO2 emissions removal, would be a good thing to do today.

I don't think there are many places that are not farmed and are not pastures or forests already. And most pastures are pastures because there is not enough rainfall for forests. I might be wrong but I do not see where you would do that. Whereas regenerative agriculture is to be done on agricultural land of which there is plenty.

NeilT

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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2020, 03:21:08 PM »
Solar water desalination for a Sahara forestation comes to mind.
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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2020, 04:07:07 PM »
Solar water desalination for a Sahara forestation comes to mind.
Why not just use salt water? Has anyone here ever heard about the Seawater Foundation and Integrated Seawater Farming? Looking it up again I saw that there are not many updates on this project in the last 10 years, so I'm not sure if this project is still alive, but it really sounded like a good idea 10 years ago.

Carl N. Hodges is an American atmospheric physicist and founder of the Seawater foundation. He is the main driving force behind ideas of using sea canals to irrigate deserts.

The idea is to grow sea farms in the artificial sea canals using plants like salicornia and mangrove, and introducing fish and shrimp. This is thought to be able to resurrect ecosystems, create jobs, wealth and food sources. This has been proposed as a solution for starvation and even being able to counter the effects of global warming and rising sea levels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Hodges
http://seawaterfoundation.org/

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KiwiGriff

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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2020, 07:32:00 PM »
One Billion Trees Programme
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The New Zealand government has set a goal to plant a billion trees by 2028, and we need your help to achieve it.

About the One Billion Trees Programme
Find out why the goal has been set to plant one billion trees by 2028 and how we will achieve it.

Funding to help plant one billion trees
There are different funding options for landowners, organisations, and communities who want to plant trees or revert land to native forest. There are also partnership funding options for groups or organisations with workforce development programmes or projects that improve the way we plant or grow trees.

Direct Grants for tree planting
Apply for a grant from the One Billion Trees Fund to help with the costs of tree planting or retiring your land to native forest on your farmland, private land, or Māori land.

Partnership Funding
Access One Billion Trees Partnership Funding from Te Uru Rākau (Forestry New Zealand) for projects and initiatives that support tree planting and help improve the way we grow and plant trees.

Matariki Tu Rākau memorial tree-planting
Access One Billion Trees funding to plant living memorials to honour members of your community.  Funding is provided
https://www.teururakau.govt.nz/funding-and-programmes/forestry/one-billion-trees-programme/
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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2020, 12:42:12 PM »
Certainly some of the sahara is below sea level so should be sustainable and it will introduce moisture back into the local environment and induce precipitation.  Reducing the need for desalination.

But if we are going to have a rapid deployment of desert forests we'll need large quantities of fresh water to get started.

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NeilT

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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2020, 12:45:43 PM »
KiwiGriff,

1bn trees. Sounds like a lot and I don't want to talk down any attempt to balance the biosphere, but in the 99 storm, 360 million trees were felled in France alone.

We don't need a few billion trees, we need a few trillion and that is a whole new order of magnitude.
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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2020, 01:33:01 PM »

But if we are going to have a rapid deployment of desert forests we'll need large quantities of fresh water to get started.

Maybe much less water is needed than thought before:
The Groasis waterboxx needs just a few liters of water per tree. After that, it condenses water from the air and collects whatever little rainfall there is in the desert. (even in the Sahara or Arabia there is an annual 50-100 mm rain which is enough for these trees with a little help from the growbox)

how it works:


planting in Dubai:




El Cid

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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2020, 01:37:28 PM »
KiwiGriff,

1bn trees. Sounds like a lot and I don't want to talk down any attempt to balance the biosphere, but in the 99 storm, 360 million trees were felled in France alone.

We don't need a few billion trees, we need a few trillion and that is a whole new order of magnitude.

I agree. Me and a friend planted 1.2 million trees (acorns actually) 10 years ago. The forest is now 10 yrs old on 150 hectares = 1.5 km2. That is nothing. Even 1 billion trees is nothing Earth-wise. It is a good beginning at most.

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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2020, 03:51:44 PM »
I dont the think NZ can solve climate change alone
We are only a small nation.
The world can plant marginal and unproductive lands into forest. If done every where it will have an impact on CO2 levels.

El Cid the initial stocking rate for a pinus plantation in NZ is about 1,000 stems a  hectare.
 Native forest is usually started using a pioneer crop of tea tree at around twice that density.
Much forested land marginal  for grazing was converted to pasture  in the extractive phase of the early  NZ  settlement.
NZ is aiming towards planting half to a million  hectares of new forest  over the next decade.
Not all of this will be commercial tree crops  instead some will be permanent native forest designated to provide a long term carbon sink with a return provided under our emission trading scheme.
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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2020, 04:56:49 PM »
Thirty percent of our planet is overpopulated landmass. The solution for CO2 extraction has to be found in the ocean. And then we have to look at olivine, algae, and seaweed. (Kelp)

Quote
An increasing body of research is documenting the potential of seaweed farming to counter climate change as deforestation decimates rainforests and other crucial carbon sinks. Fast-growing oceanic jungles of kelp and other macroalgae are highly efficient at storing carbon. Seaweed also ameliorates acidification, deoxygenation, and other marine impacts of global warming that threaten the biodiversity of the seas and the source of food and livelihoods for hundreds of millions of people.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2019/08/forests-of-seaweed-can-help-climate-change-without-fire/
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NeilT

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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2020, 04:23:39 PM »
Certainly the Ocean will play a part.

But we have to remember that the Ocean already pulls out around half of the CO2 already being absorbed every year.  Just how much we can increase that is debatable.

Deserts are here and now, we can make them bloom and we can do it with trees.  The Israelis have been doing it for decades.  We can provide water, both saline and fresh, I'd suggest fresh initially, but saline also has a part to play.  Australia, China, Sahara, all have large deserts which could be made to bloom if we put our minds to the technology.  It would also have a moderating effect on the local climate too.  Bringing agriculture closer to the forests again.  Something Olivine and Sea based efforts will not.

As we want to make agriculture more local and less intensive (CO2++), this can only be a bonus.

It all stands on top of 0 emissions though. It is not intended to mitigate or reduce emissions.  It is the tool to get us back to 350ppm at the minimum once we hit 0 emissions.
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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2020, 08:01:46 PM »
Quote
The Ocean already pulls out around half of the CO2
No it doesn't. It absorbs it, but it doesn't sequester it. It just acidifies the ocean.
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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2020, 08:28:33 PM »
CO2, half to atmosphere, one quarter to oceans, one quarter to land. Short term
In the long run almost all of it ends up in the oceans. The ocean sends it into DIC in the deep ocean
( thousand year sink )carbonate sedimentation on the shelves( million year sink ) , DOC intermediate waters( fifty year sink )as well as causing acidification of  the oceans as carbonic acid becomes carbonate( with release of hydrogen ions ) and bicarbonate. Acidification may last 100,000 years until terrestrial sources deliver enough silicates ,carbonates and bicarbonate to balance ocean pH.

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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2020, 10:16:06 PM »
Certainly some of the sahara is below sea level so should be sustainable and it will introduce moisture back into the local environment and induce precipitation.  Reducing the need for desalination.

But if we are going to have a rapid deployment of desert forests we'll need large quantities of fresh water to get started.
I guess that filling the holes of the Sahara with salted water could be a great way to get salt and moisture, but I'm not sure that, even with a lot of water, salinity can be low enough so that fishes could live in it.

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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2020, 07:45:40 AM »
Rise in carbon capture as global warming speeds growth of forests would be negated by earlier deaths, say scientists
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/sep/08/shorter-lifespan-of-faster-growing-trees-will-add-to-climate-crisis-study-finds
  by Fiona Harvey

 Excerpts (with bolding by me):
Live fast, die young is a truism often applied to rock stars but could just as easily describe trees, according to new research. Trees that grow rapidly have a shorter lifespan, which could spell bad news for tackling the climate crisis.

Trees grow faster in warmer conditions, and this should act as a natural brake on global heating, as they take up and store more carbon dioxide from the air as they grow. But the new study casts doubt on this beneficial cycle, finding that the faster trees grow, the sooner they die – and therefore stop storing carbon.

Roel Brienen, associate professor of geography at the University of Leeds, the lead author of the paper, said: “We started a global analysis and were surprised to find that these trade-offs are incredibly common. It occurred in almost all species we looked at, including tropical trees.”

Some fast-growing trees, including conifer species in cold regions, have long been known to show shorter lifespans, but what was not known was the impact of warmer conditions that can spur growth as global heating accelerates. An international team of researchers, publishing their work on Tuesday in the peer-review journal Nature Communications, has found that the relationship between faster growth and shorter lifespan appears to hold good across tree species and latitudes.

Trees growing faster in warmer conditions reach their maximum size sooner, and that appears to increase their chance of dying. Trees that grow more quickly may also be more vulnerable to factors such as drought, disease and pests. When trees die, they give up their stored carbon gradually, in the form of methane, a greenhouse gas.

This means that many standard climate change models of how we can use forests as carbon sinks, to absorb the carbon dioxide we produce from fossil fuel burning, are likely to overestimate the benefits. This study suggests that although the forests of the future might grow faster as temperatures increase, they could also store less carbon as the trees die off sooner
.


“[The] carbon uptake rates of forests are likely to be on the wane as slow-growing and persistent trees are supplanted by fast-growing but vulnerable trees.”


“Currently, Earth system climate models predict continuation or increases in the size of the carbon sink of mature forests and this study shows the opposite, that increased CO2 compromises forests as a carbon sink … The idea that fossil fuel-based emissions can be offset by planting trees or avoiding deforestation really does not stand up to scientific scrutiny.”

They found that faster growth was linked to shorter lifespans in trees of the same species, and across different species, and was not dependent on the climate or soil.

But several studies have cast doubt on the capacity of global forests to act as carbon sinks as the climate alters. A study published in March found that tropical forests were losing their ability to store carbon, and research published in May showed that the world’s forests were becoming shorter and younger
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NeilT

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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2020, 09:28:06 AM »

But several studies have cast doubt on the capacity of global forests to act as carbon sinks as the climate alters. A study published in March found that tropical forests were losing their ability to store carbon, and research published in May showed that the world’s forests were becoming shorter and younger

Natural forests, certainly.  We're talking about farmed forests with intervention to keep them healthy until they can grow on themselves.  Very long life trees would be the goal and would need management until they could thrive.
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NeilT

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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2020, 09:31:28 AM »
I guess that filling the holes of the Sahara with salted water could be a great way to get salt and moisture, but I'm not sure that, even with a lot of water, salinity can be low enough so that fishes could live in it.

Do we need the fish?  Also, if we introduce moisture into the local atmosphere we should gain freshwater runoff over time.  Which will tend to desalinate.

Over and above that, if we put in channels or tunnels to allow the flooding, then we can also introduce renewable powered circulation too.

It all falls into megaproject engineering.  Something countries have been reluctant to do due to cost overruns and graft in government projects.

Perhaps we could give the project to TBC??? :o :o
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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2020, 10:49:15 AM »
<snip>
Natural forests, certainly.  We're talking about farmed forests with intervention to keep them healthy until they can grow on themselves.  Very long life trees would be the goal and would need management until they could thrive.

Trees that have a very long life such as the taxus, also have very slow growth.
And you want to use those for a commercially farmed forest? A return on investment of >100 years?
Furthermore, those trees need their own favourite soil type. Must be lucky if the farm has the right soil and latitude/climate.
The article also makes clear that natural forests are better at sinking carbon than commercial farmed forests.
A forest is not a bunch of trees. It is an ecosystem with many lifeforms interacting. Therefore in my view, a farmed forest is not really a forest but monoculture intensive farming.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 10:55:24 AM by nanning »
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2020, 01:45:22 PM »
I think farmed forests with intervention are not the same per se.

One problem is starting them because both young trees that start growing and recently transplantated trees are vulnerable to heatwaves so in some locations they might need extra water. Maybe drip irrigation can be used for that.

The other part i would characterise as maintenance more then farming. If we build ´old forests´ then they also need dead standing wood and some dead lying wood but we would probably have to remove some too for managing fire risks in future dry summers (mainly thinking about our NW European forests).

If you plant a lot of trees in the same location they can also take quite a bit of water (there is an article on the effect of replanting in China in the Forest thread) so that is something to take into account too.

The really big problem is the future temperatures. Again i am talking most about NW European forests. The trees have certain limits and they are being tested already. So which trees do we plant?

Maybe it would be wise to plant a mix of local and more mediterranean trees. 
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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2020, 02:14:46 PM »
Trees that have a very long life such as the taxus, also have very slow growth.
And you want to use those for a commercially farmed forest? A return on investment of >100 years?

The return on investment is reduction in CO2 content in the atmosphere post Zero emissions.  Financial gain is not on the table.

Just how many Trillions of $ are we talking about just to reduce emissions to Zero?  How many trillions more to start sucking CO2 out of the atmoshpere.

The forests would only start to produce any gain at all when they became a carbon emitter rather than a carbon sink and at that time it is the time to cut the forest and lock the carbon into wood infrastructure.  Replacing cut carbon with new growing carbon sinks.

This is not rocket science, managed forests have been doing this for millennia.  The forests would be a resource for the whole world, not a greedy few.

Isn't that what you keep telling us?

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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2020, 02:21:38 PM »

Maybe it would be wise to plant a mix of local and more mediterranean trees.
Kassy, as I understand it Israel has already done a huge amount of this work in engineering tree types to specifically recover desert land and lock water into the environment.

It is possible, as has already been proven.  However it does take a lot of resources.  Which is why I mentioned renewable powered desalination to give the requisite water.

The thing is we have areas in the world that are virtually unusable, deserts which are growing and a natural means of sucking out CO2, so long as we plan and engineer for it from the beginning.

As I said to Nanning, just how many trillions of $ are we planning to invest in stopping CO2 emissions, just how much more are we going to spend which could be utilised now on this kind of thing?

I think it  is at least worth visiting as an option for sequestration in from around 30 years from now (assuming the avaricious idiots do manage to get to zero emissons).
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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2020, 03:39:14 PM »
A forest is not a bunch of trees. It is an ecosystem with many lifeforms interacting. Therefore in my view, a farmed forest is not really a forest but monoculture intensive farming.

Fortunately managed forests CAN be true ecosystems.

You can plant various trees with various growth characteristics, eg. you plant one row of black locust, alder (nitrogen fixers) with poplar and willow (fast growing), then the second row is various oaks, maple, ash, hornbeam, yew. Between the rows you can plant clover and alfalfa to fix more nitrogen and outcompete weeds. You cut these groundcovers twice a year and leave the clippings there to enrich the soil.

The first, fast growing row will overgrow the second but that does not matter as this second row is quite shade tolerant as most slow growing trees are - so they will be alive, but growing slowly only. Then, after 10 years you can cut half of the first row (to open up the canopy, get materials, and jumpstart growth of the second row), after another 10 years you cut the rest of the first row as they have done their jobs: enriched the soil and gave you wood. The first row will resprout from the trunks and you can cut these a few times before they will be totally shaded by the big trees (second row) and die.  By this time there will be not much groundcover as they also die without the sun - having done their duty.

Basically you can recreate natural succession and create an old growth forest in a few decades. Any new seedlings that are able to survive are left in place. So, this will become a real forest.

NeilT

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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2020, 05:45:34 PM »
Which is an excellent explanation of why it is possible to help nature to take back control.

All we need to do is try.  Kind of what we've been saying all along about AGW.  This one doesn't need some major personal sacrifice, no grovelling, no mea culpa, just a chunk of effort and a focus span longer than 6 months.

Not very sexy though, is it....
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Freegrass

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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2020, 02:51:47 AM »
Tree planting made easy.

Now let's pray...

If the science don't fit our beliefs, we pray to God and cuddle up in our own delusional fantasy where everything makes sense again...

El Cid

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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2020, 07:25:39 AM »
Tree planting made easy.


That is absolutely awesome. And it actually mimics bird-dropped (poo-covered) tree-seeding but adds precision and perfect timing. Amazing!

(although I must say that in most places conventional methods are much cheaper and easier than this, but in difficult terrain this would work wonders)

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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2020, 07:45:35 AM »
<snip>
“Currently, Earth system climate models predict continuation or increases in the size of the carbon sink of mature forests and this study shows the opposite, that increased CO2 compromises forests as a carbon sink … The idea that fossil fuel-based emissions can be offset by planting trees or avoiding deforestation really does not stand up to scientific scrutiny.”

Have you perhaps missed this part of the Guardian article NeilT?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
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NeilT

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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2020, 08:43:54 AM »
<snip>
“Currently, Earth system climate models predict continuation or increases in the size of the carbon sink of mature forests and this study shows the opposite, that increased CO2 compromises forests as a carbon sink … The idea that fossil fuel-based emissions can be offset by planting trees or avoiding deforestation really does not stand up to scientific scrutiny.”

Have you perhaps missed this part of the Guardian article NeilT?

Not in the slightest. Did you miss the part where I said "This is not to offset emissions, this is to get the CO2 back OUT of the atmosphere post Zero emissions"?

I have said, consistently, that this is not about offsetting emissions. This is about the engineering efforts to reduce the CO2 balance in the atmosphere, post zero emissions, so that we don't reap the full impact of the CO2 we have already introduced.

This kind of engineering takes decades just to get going and needs unprecedented global support to get it done.  Meaning if we don't at least Start, then we will never succeed.
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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2020, 08:45:33 AM »
Interesting application of technology Freegrass.  This is the kind of thinking we're going to need.
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nanning

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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2020, 11:02:10 AM »
NeilT, you write "this is to get the CO2 back OUT of the atmosphere post Zero emissions", but that means nothing more than "offsetting our earlier emissions".

The article and my point is that using the tree-growing process as an effective means of sinking carbon, is less effective than earlier thought. That there's a negative feedback in tree carbon sequestration with higher atmospheric CO₂.

I find it strange that you speak about the period after zero-emissions before using trees to sequester carbon.
Apart from the fact that it is very far from certain that civilisation will ever get to zero emissions, why not use this method right now? Why postpone?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
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NeilT

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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #35 on: September 10, 2020, 11:21:02 AM »
NeilT, you write "this is to get the CO2 back OUT of the atmosphere post Zero emissions", but that means nothing more than "offsetting our earlier emissions".

The Guardian article is clearly talking abuot offsetting current emissions which are growing.  I am talking about CO2 reduction once human emissions have ceased.

There is no ambiguity here.  Just a difference of viewpoint.
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nanning

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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #36 on: September 10, 2020, 12:12:25 PM »
I disagree, I think you are confused.
What's the difference between "CO₂ reduction" and "offsetting" in this context? They're the same thing.

After we hypothetically reach zero anthropogenic emissions, the permafrost, oceans and other sinks-turned-sources will still emit a whole lot of GHG and that needs also to be 'offset' or 'reduced' before the atmospheric CO₂ content drops.

Why not plant the trees now? Why wait? What's your argument?
« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 12:18:50 PM by nanning »
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

NeilT

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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2020, 01:15:22 PM »
I disagree, I think you are confused.
What's the difference between "CO₂ reduction" and "offsetting" in this context? They're the same thing.

Because the Guardian is talking about justifying trees to mitigate current emissions.  I am talking about putting the infrastructure in place, NOW, to mitigate the CO2 post zero emissions.

I am not talking about doing it then, it takes decades for these carbon sinks to grow to maturity.  So I am talking about doing it NOW.  But I am talking about the reason for it being about CO2 reduction, not mitigation, post zero emissions.

If you want action on this don't talk about mitigation, it just gets wrapped up in the whole zero emissions effort.  We need to be talking about return to normal for these forests.  It is a completely different target.
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Re: Is it really so impossible to use natural sinks to sequester CO2
« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2020, 06:44:58 AM »
Understanding Northern Pacific Ocean Iron and Phosphorous Shortages

"Characterizing the mechanisms driving spatial and temporal changes in the stoichiometry of nutrient supply is crucial to understand the controls of an ecosystem’s carrying capacity and productivity. In marine oligotrophic regions, small changes in the ocean and atmospheric nutrient input ratio can shift the nature of the limiting nutrient. The present study documents such a shift at interannual scales between periods of phosphorus limitation and sufficiency in the North Pacific Subtropical Gyre. These shifts appear to be driven by interannual variations in the transport of iron-rich Asian dust across the North Pacific resulting from basin-scale changes in atmospheric pressure gradients, as reflected by the Pacific Decadal Oscillation index, causing the ecosystem to oscillate between phosphorus and iron limitation."

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/26/12720

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2019/06/understanding-northern-pacific-ocean-iron-and-phosphorous-shortages.html