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jdallen

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #200 on: July 27, 2013, 01:46:28 AM »
Those are huge melt ponds... Might as well be open water...

The dark areas are shadows of clouds.

V

D'OH!

Missed that in the image. See it now. Serves me right for shooting from the hip...
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werther

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #201 on: July 27, 2013, 09:13:40 AM »
Morning JDAllen,
Everyone knows that embarrassment... my first entry on the blog was a fake melt lake on Kangerdlussuaq Glacier....

Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #202 on: July 27, 2013, 01:12:28 PM »
More on the "Melting North Pole" controversy.

According to a statement from Jamie Morison of the University of Washington:

Quote
Web Camera #1 is a system built and deployed by the Polar Science Center in April 2012 at the Barneo ice camp approximately 25 miles from the North Pole as part of the NSF-funded North Pole Environmental Observatory (NPEO). It is meant to give a visual record of ice changes over the spring-summer-fall season. Ablation stakes made of plywood strips 10-cm wide and marked with alternating black and white 10-cm squares are planted in the ice near the buoy to indicate visually the amount of surface melting as the summer proceeds. Also in the field of view of this camera are an Ice-T buoy built by Frederic Vivier of Le Laboratoire Ocean Université Pierre et Marie Curie (UPMC) to measure bottom melt and heat conduction through the ice and a Polar Ocean Profiling System (POPS) installed by Takashi Kikuchi of JAMSTEC to measure temperature and salinity profiles in the top 1000 m of the ocean. The camera is about 1.5 m above the April ice surface. The Ice-T buoy is 12-14 m away from the camera and the POPs buoy is about 53 m away.

That's what it looked like to me. However webcam 2 is monitoring another UPMC buoy:

Quote
Web Camera #2 was built by the Polar Science Center with the support of Jean-Claude Gascard of UPMC. It was installed and its data are recovered by NPEO in a joint effort with UPMC. It was installed in part to monitor the fate of the large Acoustic Ice Tethered Profiler (AITP) ocean buoy its AITPs laser cloud sensor. For this reason it was placed close to (~ 3 meters) the AITP. It is also surrounded with 10-cm wide ablation stakes. The camera stands about 1.8 m above the April level of the ice surface. Owing to the wide-angle lenses used in the cameras, the AITP and the stakes are closer to the camera than they appear.

So far so good? Jamie then goes on to say that:

Quote
The two web cameras are about 200 to 300-m apart with Web camera #2 looking to the right side of Web Camera #1 and Web Camera # 1 looking away from Web Camera #2.

If that's the case, how come the weather at one looks like this:



whereas at the other it looks like this?



In another pertinent comment John Guthrie from UoW says:

Quote
2013E and 819920 were deployed at least a couple of miles away on separate floes. The buoy in the image is neither of those, although 819920 is located on the same floe and somewhat visible in the images from webcam #1
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 05:50:41 PM by Jim Hunt »
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ktonine

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #203 on: July 27, 2013, 02:04:05 PM »
The cameras are not synchronized.  So the two images are not taken at the same time.  It's easier to see they are looking at the same sky when there's a noticeable feature that is likely to stick around for a half hour or more.

Webcam 1


Webcam 2


Webcam 2 may look like it's sitting in the middle of a lake, but once you realize the scale the image from webcam 1 makes more sense.  Remember, the ablation stakes have 10cm sections.  8 sections  (4 black, 4 white) is less than 1 meter.

Espen

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #204 on: July 27, 2013, 02:16:24 PM »
Morning JDAllen,
Everyone knows that embarrassment... my first entry on the blog was a fake melt lake on Kangerdlussuaq Glacier....
Embarrassment. You Talkin' to Me! 8)
Have a ice day!

mabs

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #205 on: July 27, 2013, 11:40:53 PM »
Is it draining?

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Vergent

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #206 on: July 28, 2013, 12:17:10 AM »
Is it draining?


Yes! But not from that picture(from the 23) Do not post from the galery, they are out of date and will change, use the archive link below the galery. Compared to earlier, it has drained about 20cm.

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2013/WEBCAM2/ARCHIVE/npeo_cam2_20130726132323.jpg

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2013/WEBCAM2/ARCHIVE/npeo_cam2_20130727192104.jpg

Flip back and forth between these two images, you can see it draining. Now we will soon get a look at the carnage!

Vergent ;-)
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 12:27:00 AM by Vergent »

SteveMDFP

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #207 on: July 28, 2013, 12:27:37 AM »
Yes, water seems to be draining quickly.
So much for my interpretation that the buoy was sinking into the ice--the water really was rising.
It will be interesting to see what it all looks like when the weather clears and the sun comes out--though sunshine may not come soon.

kevjohnno

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #208 on: July 28, 2013, 01:07:03 AM »
Not much of a controversy Jim, but it is sad how lazy the media are in checking their stories.
A bit sadder when I see sites like Livescience.com also lazily report it as melting at the north pole.
What we now see is the inevitable backlash of "as usual they lied again" responses.

So from the comments from the scientists can we conclude that the webcams were located near each other and are near 819920 (as the updated drift map now states) and that the IMB site showing the webcam 2 as being near 2013E is probably close, but the page showing webcam 1 as being near 2013B, and by implication near 975420, could be wrong.



helorime

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #209 on: July 28, 2013, 04:08:58 AM »
Fun to watch the movie of O-buoy 8.  it is in a section of broken up ice and the little floes keep bouncing off each other.  Sometimes they bounce the buoy into a position where you can't see much though.  http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy8/movie
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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #210 on: July 28, 2013, 07:25:32 AM »
Is it draining?
Well, it's all drained now: (that was fast!)
Cheers!
Lodger

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #211 on: July 28, 2013, 08:25:29 AM »
The "buoy" is mounted on a pipe down through the ice. 40cm of top melt in two weeks.

V

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #212 on: July 28, 2013, 01:06:09 PM »
The IMB site showing the webcam 2 as being near 2013E is probably close, but the page showing webcam 1 as being near 2013B, and by implication near 975420, could be wrong.

The GPS on the various buoys shows that 2013B is colocated with PAWS 975420, and that 2013E is well over a kilometre from PAWS 819920. Based on the new information from UoW that suggests neither webcam can see an IMB!

The storm has passed, the sun has now come out again in the Beaufort Sea, and the webcam on O-Buoy 8 reveals some other buoys once more, in amongst the jumble of ice:


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ghoti

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #213 on: July 28, 2013, 05:15:16 PM »
It is a pity the data from 2013E (webcam 2) is so unreliable. Compare these two photos noting the black and white height marker.

The surface and bottom melt chart on

http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013E.htm

Shows no surface change through the entire flooding and draining episode even though there clearly has been significant surface loss.

anthropocene

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #214 on: July 28, 2013, 05:25:33 PM »
Is that the drainhole behind the buoy? That is, is that actual sea water in the background? If so doesn't like much ice depth to go.  Fascinating watching the melting (with melt ponds) happen in front of our eyes.

Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #215 on: July 28, 2013, 05:33:56 PM »
It is a pity the data from 2013E (webcam 2) is so unreliable.

It seems on the basis of the latest evidence that 2013E and webcam 2 are not in fact in the same place. See above.
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ghoti

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #216 on: July 28, 2013, 06:14:15 PM »
The buoys identified as being close to the webcam have only air temperature and pressure data in addition to their location. I wish there was ice temperature or thickness data to go along with it. The photos are so dramatic but maybe the ice isn't being affected so spectacularly. We'll only know what the ice is like if it breaks up in close view of the webcam.

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #217 on: July 28, 2013, 06:53:56 PM »
The buoys identified as being close to the webcam have only air temperature and pressure data in addition to their location.

The Ice-T buoy observed by webcam 1 has a thermistor string, but the acquired data don't seem to be publicly available.
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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #218 on: July 28, 2013, 10:06:25 PM »
Is there anywhere we can get a current position for these webcams and buoys?

Nevermind, found it:
http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/newdata.htm
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 10:27:58 PM by chrisale »

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #219 on: July 28, 2013, 10:17:37 PM »
Is web cam # 8 going down the drain?
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jdallen

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #220 on: July 28, 2013, 10:47:22 PM »
Is web cam # 8 going down the drain?

Doubt it, but it is doing a good job of acting as the court jester of arctic buoys this year...
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jai mitchell

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #221 on: July 29, 2013, 04:25:01 AM »
I notice in the picture the exposed ice appears to be undercut by the ocean's surface.  Is this the case or is the undercut caused by snowfall accumulation?  (or both?) if it is then this is a significant mechanism for increased ice loss in the new arctic cycle with earlier storm-induced breakup and then significant perimeter melt around the broken up ice flows.
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helorime

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #222 on: July 29, 2013, 06:19:42 AM »
If you look at the movie you'll see that O-buoy 8 is among a jumble of floes some smaller some larger and they bounce around.  the ocean is visible between them if the camera faces the right direction.
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Anne

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #223 on: July 29, 2013, 08:36:28 AM »
The angle of the sun gives a great image of the decaying surface of the newly drained North Pool:

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #224 on: July 29, 2013, 08:44:18 AM »
Anne;

That web cam is south of 85 moving towards Fram Strait, pretty far from the NP.
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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #225 on: July 29, 2013, 08:52:44 AM »
I should have added a wink after Pool (not Pole) ;)

Yuha

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #226 on: July 29, 2013, 10:55:59 AM »
In the webcam2 images after the drainage, there appears to be a crack in the ice running from the lower right of the image towards the center of the image.

Could this crack be the cause of the sudden drainage?

Sourabh

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #227 on: July 29, 2013, 12:28:04 PM »
Hey Guys,

I have a quick question. How did water drain? where did it go? I thought lake refroze.

Thanks,
Sourabh

Peter Ellis

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #228 on: July 29, 2013, 12:41:57 PM »
Quick answers: 1) Gravity.  2)  Down.  :-)

Seriously though, there's nothing particularly mysterious about water draining away, it's what water does.  There may be a fracture somewhere out of the field of view (or even in the field of view but non-obvious).  Alternatively, the ice itself gets more porous as it thins, so the water can just percolate through.

werther

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #229 on: July 29, 2013, 12:43:18 PM »
There’s a lot of room in the beaufort Sea now:


O-buoy 8

jdallen

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #230 on: July 29, 2013, 07:46:39 PM »
There’s a lot of room in the beaufort Sea now:

I'd say its safe to conclude #8 is no longer icebound.
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Phil.

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #231 on: July 31, 2013, 03:40:56 PM »
The angle of the sun gives a great image of the decaying surface of the newly drained North Pool:


By my estimate the webcams are in the vicinity of the circle I've marked on the MODIS image below, getting pretty close to floating.   :)


Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #232 on: July 31, 2013, 04:48:16 PM »
By my estimate the webcams are.... getting pretty close to floating.

I'm not sure they're that close to floating yet Phil. Go to arctic.io, centred on the current location of PAWS 819920. A bit of way to go yet?

I've also been experimenting with BatchGeo. It seems IMB 2013E, which is supposed to be in the same general vicinity, has been going around in circles recently rather than racing towards the Fram Strait:

 
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Which is the best answer to Sep-2012 ASI lost (compared to 1979-2000)?
50% [NSIDC Extent] or
73% [PIOMAS Volume]

Volume is harder to measure than extent, but 3-dimensional space is real, 2D's hide ~50% thickness gone.
-> IPCC/NSIDC trends [based on extent] underestimate the real speed of ASI lost.

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #234 on: August 03, 2013, 12:59:42 PM »
I see that the IMB site now shows no camera on 2013B and the 2 webcams as being approx 1500 metres from 2013E. http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013E.htm Both the NPEO and IMB sites are now in sync.

Lennart van der Linde

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #235 on: August 05, 2013, 01:30:14 PM »

Alistair

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #236 on: August 05, 2013, 02:25:55 PM »
According to the speed table for OBuoy #7 it is moving at almost 400 m/s which is approaching 1400 km/hr!!

Which makes it all the more amazing that an image of a polar bear was caught on the camera as per  Reply 48 @ Arctic Image of the Day thread

Peter Ellis

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #237 on: August 05, 2013, 02:30:49 PM »
Heh!

(Boring answer: the m in the numerical label stands for 'milli' - notice that buoy 8 doesn't have m's with its numbers)

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #238 on: August 05, 2013, 02:55:35 PM »
A more normal way of putting metres/sec of less than 1 is 0.4 m/s NOT 400 milli metres/sec surely?
(and that is a very specific space between milli and metres as opposed to millimetres).

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #239 on: August 05, 2013, 03:25:20 PM »
No wonder the ice looks like it does with ice bears hitting the sonic wall with floes.  :P
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 03:59:10 PM by arcticio »

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #240 on: August 05, 2013, 06:27:48 PM »
I thought it was interesting that at the time of this amazing picture, there was no real change noted for buoy pitch or roll.  Which says two things to me: 1.  When a polar bear is curious (rather than hungry or angry), it can be quite gentle.
2.  That buoy is on ice thick enough still to support the weight of a polar bear without cracking.

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #241 on: August 05, 2013, 08:42:49 PM »
Not necessarily. Remember that the other sensors may well not be on exactly the same mast as the camera - in fact the camera is usually placed a little way away, aiming back at the other sensors, specifically in order to monitor them.  For oBuoy 8, I think we actually say the floe break up, with the camera part moving free of the rest.  Dunno about 7.

Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #242 on: August 05, 2013, 09:58:09 PM »
Remember that the other sensors may well not be on exactly the same mast as the camera

An O-Buoy is chock full of sensors Peter:



Perhaps the bear was admiring its reflection in the solar panels?
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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #243 on: August 05, 2013, 11:05:02 PM »
I thought I was the only one who saw that bear.  Here's a screenshot for anyone who missed him.


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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #244 on: August 05, 2013, 11:53:16 PM »
Busy day for bears and arctic webcams.  North Pole webcam 1 photos show paw prints appearing in today's images.

oh, and a bird.

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #245 on: August 06, 2013, 10:33:22 AM »
 It's not a bird though. The polar bear has left a dirty mark on the lens.

It has also tilted the camera.


This can be seen by comparing the 'before' and 'after' images at
http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2013/WEBCAM1/ARCHIVE/,
where the first 'after' image is npeo_cam1_20130805195920.jpg

Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #246 on: August 06, 2013, 11:34:55 AM »
Buoy of the day this morning is IMB 2012H. It was last visible from O-Buoy 8 on July 28th, but has now sailed off into the distance. According to the latest data it witnessed surface melt of over 10 cm overnight.

Most of its thermistors still seem to be working, and the temperature profile suggests it won't be able to support the weight of a polar bear for much longer:
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 05:08:57 PM by Jim Hunt »
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #247 on: August 06, 2013, 11:47:41 AM »
According to the latest data it witnessed surface melt of over 10 cm overnight.
Almost certainly a melt pond draining - look how the under-ice layer jumped up to zero degrees between the 1st and 6th of August.  That has to be fresh water, and the only place fresh water can come from is snowmelt on top of the ice.  The drainage hole is somewhere other than the thermistor string, since they're still recording sub-zero temperatures in the middle of the floe.

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #248 on: August 06, 2013, 12:04:33 PM »
The Beaufort is blow torching.  Not surprising. 
It's expected to stay way above normal for 10 days.  Like about as warm as it can get vs Climo.

I'd expect the CAA, Beaufort, western CAB to take a beating.
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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #249 on: August 06, 2013, 04:58:02 PM »
IMB 2012H was last visible from O-Buoy 8 on July 28th

Famous last words. I reckon there's a couple of other buoys visible in the distance in the latest shot from the O-Buoy 8 webcam. Or am I just imagining it? There's certainly plenty of melt ponds to be seen.

If thermistors 23 and 24 are now in fresh water where ice used to be, yet again the bottom sounder doesn't reflect that fact. It reckons there's only been 1 cm of bottom melt since August 1st, and the bottom is still over 2 metres below the original ice surface. How I wish all the buoys were still next to each other on the same floe!
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