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Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #750 on: August 01, 2015, 01:09:49 PM »
Watching Obuoy 9 with interest, what happens when it actually goes for a swim? Will the camera continue to function?

It should do, yes. See the end of this video which shows the Beaufort Sea refreezing from an O-Buoy:

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

vigilius

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #751 on: August 01, 2015, 01:55:52 PM »
Thanks, Jim, I had no idea.

vigilius

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #752 on: August 01, 2015, 04:52:16 PM »
Okay, can we now say for sure that Obuoy #9 has "gone for a swim?" And can anyone tell me if my hope for a simplistic monitoring of Fram export has any hope left? (Still just a bit northwest of 80 north, 10 west, as far as I can tell.) Wow, I have not come to the forum before this, but I have had my eye on #9 for a year now, and I just want to know more.

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #753 on: August 01, 2015, 05:15:33 PM »

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #754 on: August 01, 2015, 08:19:12 PM »
on Worldview you can see lat / lon position (bottom right) of your pointer which makes locating the buoy's position easy.
todays images (taken around midday, see orbital tracks) give a fairly clear view
[url]http://1.usa.gov/1LWIbu3[url]
I would read the midday position as about 80.6N 10.7W
« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 08:29:22 PM by Andreas T »

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #755 on: August 02, 2015, 01:31:57 PM »


Santa had a visitor.

Verg  ;)
which seems to have done some tidying: the instruments which had fallen over by the meltchannel at the left edge of the image are gone.
(edit: copied comment from other thread with unnecessarily quoting myself)
see 20150831 11:55 and before on
[url][/ftp://northpoleftp.apl.washington.edu/NPEO_2015_Accumulating_Webcam_Images/NPEO_2015_WebCam%232/url]
« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 07:33:38 PM by Andreas T »

JayW

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #756 on: August 02, 2015, 01:50:58 PM »
Are we looking at what the ice looks like, below waterline here on #9?  I know loss can be deceiving, but it sure appears thick.
"To defy the laws of tradition, is a crusade only of the brave" - Les Claypool

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #757 on: August 02, 2015, 02:56:53 PM »
the lightblue underwater ice in the photo is certainly quite thick, there must be enough ice underwater to support the ice above water (buoyancy)
To judge how far it extends below the water line from how much is visible is probably impossible because we don't know whether it also extends forward towards the camera (as can often be seen where we get a more sideways view) which would make it seem thicker, or backwards which would make it seem thinner than it is.
from buoyancy we would expect ice of a density of 0.910 kg/ cu m  floating in water of density 1.020 kg / cu m to have a thickness below water which is about 8 times the thickness above water. I don't think you can get anything more accurate from that image.
How representative what we see there is for the floe as a whole isn't clear and how representative this floe is for other ice in the area is another question. Some of this ice does come from the area north of Greenland which has very thick ice so it is to be expected that even after some melting (the ice beneath Obuoy9 certainly did melt as shown in the "movie" footage)
there could be as much as 2m of ice in the water. But that is just a wild guess, I don't claim to read that out of the photo. I do think it must be thicker than 0.5m to support the ice above the waterline even if that has a reduced density.

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #758 on: August 02, 2015, 03:36:36 PM »
Don't they purposefully  mount the  buoys on very thick MYI?

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #759 on: August 02, 2015, 03:56:07 PM »
obuoy9 started out in September 2013 collocated with IMB2013H on the other side of the pole (80N 160E)
http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2013H.htm
on 1.m thick ice which grew to 1.6m by the end of December '13 (last thickness date)

Gonzo

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #760 on: August 02, 2015, 05:52:07 PM »
Interesting.  I've been trying to find more info. about these, so good to see this.
I don't even know what I am looking at here (pic from today).
Is there a map of where this is?

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #761 on: August 02, 2015, 07:38:58 PM »
Gonzo, have a look around on the site where you copied that photo, there is an "overview" page with positions on a map
http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#overview/gpstracks
or look for the GPS position of your chosen buoy and look it up on worldview as described a few posts above
on Worldview you can see lat / lon position (bottom right) of your pointer which makes locating the buoy's position easy.
todays images (taken around midday, see orbital tracks) give a fairly clear view
[url]http://1.usa.gov/1LWIbu3[url]
I would read the midday position as about 80.6N 10.7W

vigilius

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #762 on: August 03, 2015, 05:21:44 AM »
At the risk of showing how dumb I am, when I go to the Obuoy GPS page all I see is a graphic display of lat/long, and the vertical scale isn't exactly generous with calibration. Unless I print it, enlarge it, get a ruler and create my own hashmarks, how would I come up with a number like "80.5" for the latitude?

cats

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #763 on: August 03, 2015, 08:44:17 AM »
If you go to http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy9/movie and put the movie all the way at the end (drag the bar at the bottom of the image), at the top will be the lat/lon info.  Hope this helps

plinius

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #764 on: August 03, 2015, 09:32:24 AM »
well, but that will never give you the current position, since the movie usually does not display the last weeks.

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #765 on: August 03, 2015, 09:35:24 AM »
At the risk of showing how dumb I am, when I go to the Obuoy GPS page all I see is a graphic display of lat/long, and the vertical scale isn't exactly generous with calibration. Unless I print it, enlarge it, get a ruler and create my own hashmarks, how would I come up with a number like "80.5" for the latitude?
I must be as dumb as you because I too am extracting the most recent (movie often is not updated for long periods) lat / lon from the graph. I enlarge on screen, look for the faint grey lines which I have to count because the scale is at the far end from the most recent data, and interpolate by eyeball (the faint lines are at 0.5 intervals and there are five discrete steps in the data line from XX.0 to XX.5). I think I shouldn't be more than 0.1 out which is still a fair stretch in km on the ground.
Cat's method is superior in precision but downloading the movie  is a bit slow on my connection                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

vigilius

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #766 on: August 03, 2015, 12:41:22 PM »
Thanks to all, I hadn't noticed the lat/long on the video. And if I am impatient I will use Andreas' method, as discussed. Anyway, in the background of all this, I sure haven't seen a lot of action in the Fram export department, have lost count of times resumption of Fram export has been predicted on the big melt thread.

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #767 on: August 03, 2015, 02:32:30 PM »
The thing about Fram export is that Obuoy9 is anyway in the doldrums in North East Polynya. AFAIK water there is upwelling and doesn't behave like the southward current a little further east. IMB2015E is the better indicator there.
But that hasn't moved very much either over July

vigilius

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #768 on: August 04, 2015, 12:09:37 PM »
#9 seems drifting east, I still have hopes. Meanwhile, with all the action in the Beaufort Sea, #11 not moving much either. I was trying to focus in on the various buoy locations using Worldview and I keep running into the problem that the lat/long in the bottom right corner is in white font which is sort of hard to read when it is on top of ice. What am I doing wrong? Also, can't find the relevant link to see anything about IMB2015E. Thanks for all your help.

seaicesailor

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #769 on: August 04, 2015, 01:56:11 PM »

The storm-enhanced bottom melting at good old 2013F ice (obuoy #10 co-located) has brought its thickness at September 2014 levels. One month early.
 

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #770 on: August 04, 2015, 02:19:07 PM »
#9 seems drifting east, I still have hopes. Meanwhile, with all the action in the Beaufort Sea, #11 not moving much either. I was trying to focus in on the various buoy locations using Worldview and I keep running into the problem that the lat/long in the bottom right corner is in white font which is sort of hard to read when it is on top of ice. What am I doing wrong? Also, can't find the relevant link to see anything about IMB2015E. Thanks for all your help.
Another method I looked at is the overview page on the Obuoy monitor site. It lets you zoom in to a very detailed view which shows the circling of Obuoy9 in the tidal flow (this corner of Greenland has a higher range than most of the arctic) Because the nearness of the coast it is clearer than elsewhere where this is and by toggling from worldview and back it gives a pretty good idea where this is relative to the current ice cover.

The IMB buoys are best found via http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/buoysum.htm it seems
somehow 2015E has just lost the July data from the display (compare with my screen shots upthread)

Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #771 on: August 04, 2015, 02:27:08 PM »
Also, can't find the relevant link to see anything about IMB2015E. Thanks for all your help.

http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2015E.htm

However it hasn't been reporting ice thickness for nearly a month.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

Peter Ellis

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #772 on: August 04, 2015, 04:08:35 PM »

The storm-enhanced bottom melting at good old 2013F ice (obuoy #10 co-located) has brought its thickness at September 2014 levels. One month early.

I would be wary of this.  The upward jump in the snowline in mid July is unphysical, and almost certainly means the sonar rig has "slipped" downwards within its hole.  Accordingly the bottom is being recorded falsely high. The true ice thickness is about 1m40, i.e. the distance between the top and bottom sponar readings.  Snow thickness is negligible at this time of year, so that 1m40 can be assumed to all be ice.

Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #773 on: August 04, 2015, 04:21:22 PM »
The true ice thickness is about 1m40, i.e. the distance between the top and bottom sponar readings.  Snow thickness is negligible at this time of year, so that 1m40 can be assumed to all be ice.

I don't think there's that much ice under 2013F. I'm on the road with only an Android for company, so I can only refer you somewhat out of date temperature profiles:

http://greatwhitecon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2015-imbs/#2013F

I reckon there was less than a metre of ice 2 weeks ago.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

vigilius

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #774 on: August 04, 2015, 04:56:57 PM »
Thanks again, as always. I will get back to work on this in 12 hours, I gotta go to bed. (Tempted to insert off-topic comments here)

oren

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #775 on: August 04, 2015, 05:03:33 PM »
To repeat SeaIceSailor's question from the stupid questions thread, does anybody have an answer?


Is there a reason why there aren't buoys installed at the Eurasian side of the Arctic?

Thanks.
[/quote

(I would suppose it's a question of budget myself).

Peter Ellis

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #776 on: August 04, 2015, 06:21:57 PM »
There may be, but the sites we look at are sites for US agencies that don't necessarily have access to Russian waters to place them.  I don't know of any sites showing Russian buoys (if such exist). 

Furthermore, as SeaIceSailor points out, there is the question of the transpolar drift, and also of when the area is actually accessible.  There isn't much scope to place buoys there during the winter or spring since it's so inaccessible.  You can place buoys along the Northern Sea Route during the summer months, see for example 2013H.
http://imb.erdc.dren.mil/2013H.htm

Note that it only lasted three months. Given the rate of drift, that bit of ice probably wound up more or less at the North Pole in ~April, i.e. about the time the Barneo buoys usually get placed there.  So it actually tells you only a little bit more than the yearly Barneo buoys do, even if it manages to survive through the winter.

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #777 on: August 04, 2015, 08:27:30 PM »
To repeat SeaIceSailor's question from the stupid questions thread, does anybody have an answer?


Is there a reason why there aren't buoys installed at the Eurasian side of the Arctic?

Thanks.



(I would suppose it's a question of budget myself).
I have found that if you want to find Russian resources, it is best to translate the search query:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B8+%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BA%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5+%D0%B1%D1%83%D0%B8+%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%82%D1%83

seaicesailor

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #778 on: August 04, 2015, 09:23:25 PM »

Thank you Peter and Vergent.


Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #779 on: August 04, 2015, 09:37:33 PM »
http://www.o-buoy.org/?p=363
shows what happened to a previous bouy.
The news section of that site says
Quote
Two O-Buoys will be deployed this 2015 fall in the Beaufort Gyre from the CCGS Louis St. Laurent by Wes Halfacre (Purdue U.) and two more in the E. Siberian Sea from the I/B Kapitan Dranitsyn  or Akademik Fedorov by Carlton Rauschenberg (Bigelow Laboratory). Three of the buoys are new ones, while the fourth one was previously deployed as OB-8 in the Beaufort; now ready to go again. These will be the last deployments with the currently funded project. The data should stream for 1-2 years. As always, O-Buoy data and images can be found in the ACADIS data portal.

Stay tuned for real time updates this coming fall!

this is from http://www.o-buoy.org/ there also some interesting photos from the deployment of buoys

vigilius

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #780 on: August 05, 2015, 05:48:54 AM »
Okay, so what is obuoy #11 telling us today? (My instinct is to say "Oh crap!")

plinius

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #781 on: August 05, 2015, 12:16:47 PM »
"Time to take a swim!". No crap/trash visible in the picture...

seaicesailor

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #782 on: August 05, 2015, 04:59:42 PM »
http://www.o-buoy.org/?p=363
shows what happened to a previous bouy.
The news section of that site says
Quote
Two O-Buoys will be deployed this 2015 fall in the Beaufort Gyre from the CCGS Louis St. Laurent by Wes Halfacre (Purdue U.) and two more in the E. Siberian Sea from the I/B Kapitan Dranitsyn  or Akademik Fedorov by Carlton Rauschenberg (Bigelow Laboratory). Three of the buoys are new ones, while the fourth one was previously deployed as OB-8 in the Beaufort; now ready to go again. These will be the last deployments with the currently funded project. The data should stream for 1-2 years. As always, O-Buoy data and images can be found in the ACADIS data portal.

Stay tuned for real time updates this coming fall!

this is from http://www.o-buoy.org/ there also some interesting photos from the deployment of buoys

There you go, next year we'll be able to watch "in situ" conditions somewhere in the ESS. Thank you Andreas!

Ps. Problem is, will there be ice left in ESS by Fall?

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #783 on: August 06, 2015, 11:15:54 PM »
0buoy12 http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#buoy12/camera has a meltpond which I think has just melted through, or rather the bottom melt has reached up to it.
The first image is the last frame of the "movie" showing the 2. Aug when it had some ice on the surface, illustrating that melt now is going on below while the surface is getting colder.

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #784 on: August 07, 2015, 11:04:33 PM »
Obouy9 is next to some of the thickest ice I have seen in front of that camera. With the camera about 2m above the water and the top of the ice above the horizon a rough estimate of thickness would be 16m! That of course assumes that the ice below water isn't wider than the ice above water. I guess it is what they call a consolidated ridge.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2015, 11:10:06 PM by Andreas T »

Andreas T

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #785 on: August 08, 2015, 12:23:48 PM »
Obuoy9 http://obuoy.datatransport.org/monitor#overview/gpstracksis making its way back north it seems ;). I don't expect that to last for long.
The significance I think is that there is very little export at the moment. Movement at the entrance to Fram strait is roughly east north east. Nares strait and Lincoln Sea are moving ice north too, which causes opening water in Lincoln sea.

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #786 on: August 08, 2015, 03:36:48 PM »
Obouy9 is next to some of the thickest ice I have seen in front of that camera. With the camera about 2m above the water and the top of the ice above the horizon a rough estimate of thickness would be 16m! That of course assumes that the ice below water isn't wider than the ice above water. I guess it is what they call a consolidated ridge.

Andreas, everytime I look at obouy #9 it's like it's from a completely different arctic.  It's spinning in circles much of the time and different icescapes/seascapes in every direction.  I could post 4 images one each from the last four days and you'd swear they were all from different buoys :)

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #787 on: August 09, 2015, 12:19:29 AM »
"To defy the laws of tradition, is a crusade only of the brave" - Les Claypool

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Jim Hunt

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #789 on: August 09, 2015, 12:14:12 PM »
Caught on candid camera

They're not going to be in range of the webcam for much longer. The "North Pole 2015" ice camp is being evacuated:

http://barentsobserver.com/en/arctic/2015/08/russian-arctic-scientists-be-evacuated-ice-floe-05-08

Quote
The icebreaker “Kapitan Dranitsyn” left Murmansk on August 4th to pick up equipment and personnel from the floating research station “North Pole-2015”. The planned evacuation will take about two weeks, and the icebreaker is expected to return to Murmansk in mid-August.



Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #790 on: August 09, 2015, 04:59:59 PM »
There are some ITP profilers back from summer vacation after a couple weeks of hiatus. So # 85 is still here and both # 80 and # 78 with their associated Microcats having returned. Also # 82 is back. We have microcats at 6 meters sending temp and salinity as well as temp/salinity contours for all but # 82. There is one microcat with #66 ( t/s contours never worked )still sending data in it's three year journey around the arctic.
 # 85 shows warm surface water back against the bottom of the ice after the little cyclone caused some surface cooling for a couple days. All the other buoys also have some some warmth in the top 25-30 meters except # 82.   

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #791 on: August 10, 2015, 02:03:21 AM »
Looking forward to seeing lots of images from a large floating non-anchored buoy soon.
Healy has departed for the north: http://www.alaskapublic.org/2015/08/07/two-icebreakers-one-port-two-very-different-missions/
 

vigilius

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #792 on: August 10, 2015, 11:04:57 AM »
Well, when I first saw this I thought perhaps Kal-El was about, playing on the ice with Kryptonian crystals. But I guess it's just an icicle on the lens? Please advise. And BTW, how is it that I got promoted to "Master Lurker"? (LOL)

Neven

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #793 on: August 10, 2015, 06:02:30 PM »
And BTW, how is it that I got promoted to "Master Lurker"? (LOL)

It was a request by a commenter. I thought it was funny and so I changed the name of the group of members who have posted less than 50 comments. They are now all master lurkers.  ;D
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Tensor

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #794 on: August 10, 2015, 06:57:19 PM »
And BTW, how is it that I got promoted to "Master Lurker"? (LOL)

It was a request by a commenter. I thought it was funny and so I changed the name of the group of members who have posted less than 50 comments. They are now all master lurkers.  ;D

Hehehehe, 19 20 posts in two and a half years, yeah master lurker sounds pretty descriptive. 
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oren

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #795 on: August 10, 2015, 10:21:37 PM »
And BTW, how is it that I got promoted to "Master Lurker"? (LOL)

It was a request by a commenter. I thought it was funny and so I changed the name of the group of members who have posted less than 50 comments. They are now all master lurkers.  ;D

When posting or replying I think it would be beneficial to be able to identify total newbies, as opposed to lurkers that are much more knowledgeable. If the forum software allows, maybe you could  call out the newbies by a combination of their number of posts with the time since registration, or with the total time spent online?
Lurker - been registered for a long time and/or spends a lot of time on the forum, doesn't post much.
(I know, it belongs in a different topic)

Neven

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #796 on: August 12, 2015, 10:43:04 AM »
oren, you're right. I'll soon give all member groups more accurate/interesting/exciting/funny new names.  :D

In the meantime, to return back on-topic, someone sent me an e-mail with the following question:

Quote
This picture struck me as as odd; it is from O-buoy 11 on August 12 2015 at 5:01 utc.

It reminds me of supercold water waves in my home lake in the Adirondacks, but if these are really waves they must be gigantic.  Maybe it is an illusion.

I'm not a scientist, just a person who has always been fascinated by watching ice melt and water freeze (not much else to in the winter in the Adirondacks!)

Has anyone noticed this too (looks like the camera had too much to drink):
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colding

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #797 on: August 12, 2015, 11:18:40 AM »
Everything looks distorted. I thinks it's just water on the lense.

Neven

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #798 on: August 12, 2015, 12:23:57 PM »
That was my first thought too.
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Yuha

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Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #799 on: August 18, 2015, 09:07:09 AM »
A heat wave has hit 2015D with temps over 1.2 C producing a burst of melt:



(Click the image below to animate)