Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: What the Buoys are telling  (Read 809794 times)

ghoti

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 767
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 12
  • Likes Given: 15
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1600 on: July 25, 2017, 05:00:50 PM »
Looking at the ice thickness reported by buoy 2017A I'm wondering how representative it could be. Satellite views of the ice at the buoy's latitude/longitude make me wonder "What would large expanses of 38cm ice look like from space"? Probably would look "solid" until it suddenly poofs.

Tor Bejnar

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4320
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 839
  • Likes Given: 716
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1601 on: July 25, 2017, 05:22:54 PM »
Is this some sort of smudge on the lens or is the Snow Queen whizzing by?  Anybody actually have a clue?  Is that a shadow on the right (click or scroll to see)? Hmmm.
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things because "we cannot negotiate with the melting point of ice"

Jim Hunt

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5524
  • Stay Home, Save Lives
    • View Profile
    • The Arctic sea ice Great White Con
  • Liked: 734
  • Likes Given: 59
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1602 on: July 25, 2017, 05:28:28 PM »
I don't know where if anywhere to find the sensor string data.

Download the .CSV files linked to at the bottom of the individual buoy pages. Summarised at:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/summer-2017-imb-buoys/

Quote
Ice thickness : 56 cm [down from 79 in week to 17 july]

You seem to have missed this bit of information from the 2017A page?

Quote
Many bad Sounder Readings after 7/5/17

By this point in the melting season the buoy will have created its own little melt pond/hole. The CRREL front page current states:

Quote
Ice Thickness: Approx. 33 cm

but I'd take that with a pinch of salt if I were you.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

Tor Bejnar

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4320
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 839
  • Likes Given: 716
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1603 on: July 25, 2017, 06:27:22 PM »
2 hours later, the smudge has moved down.  Anybody have clues?
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things because "we cannot negotiate with the melting point of ice"

helorime

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 129
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3
  • Likes Given: 17
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1604 on: July 25, 2017, 07:05:11 PM »
Likely a drop of water on the lens.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Tor Bejnar

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4320
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 839
  • Likes Given: 716
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1605 on: July 25, 2017, 07:27:31 PM »
And now, an hour later, clear.
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things because "we cannot negotiate with the melting point of ice"

Hyperion

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 375
  • Admiral Franklin of the McGillicuddy Highland Navy
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 127
  • Likes Given: 64
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1606 on: July 25, 2017, 11:31:37 PM »
2017B

ID Code: 300234062836680
Date: April 10, 2017 - Present
Type: SIMB
Initial Location: Central Arctic
Deployment: Barneo - WHOI
Co-located Instruments: AOFB, ITP 95, Ice-T

Conditions at Deployment (4/10/2017):

Snow Depth: 2 cm
Ice Thickness: 169 cm


Current Buoy Data (07/24/2017):

Pos: 84.83 N, 7.77 W

Air Temp: -0.5 C
Air Pres: 1011.4 mb

Current Ice Observations (07/24/2017)

Snow melt : ALL cm
Ice thickness : 124 cm

Since Deployment (04/10/2017)

Snow Completely Melted
Ice Surface Melt 21 cm

Ice bottom melt : 45 cm

Results from a week ago were:
Quote
Ice thickness : 142 cm [down from 155 in week to 17th july]

Since Deployment (04/10/2017)
Snow Completely Melted
Ice Surface Melt 14 cm
Ice bottom melt : 36 cm

Whether or not there is melt holes around these buoys. One interesting thing I noticed on their page was the historic data from all the previous buoys showed more surface melting than bottom melt. This seems to have changed. And it dosn't look so much like there has been less surface melt than historically. Its just we are getting more bottom melt now. I suppose with hotter and less saline gulfstream and pacific waters coming in than ever before, and the surface of the Beaufort gyre showing every sign of collapse to a anticlockwise rotation there must be significantly more subsurface heat available.
Policy: The diversion of NZ aluminum production to build giant space-mirrors to melt the icecaps and destroy the foolish greed-worshiping cities of man. Thereby returning man to the sea, which he should never have left in the first place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGillicuddy_Serious_Party

Hyperion

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 375
  • Admiral Franklin of the McGillicuddy Highland Navy
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 127
  • Likes Given: 64
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1607 on: July 25, 2017, 11:37:13 PM »



2017A

ID Code: 300234063536320
Date: March 9, 2017 - Present
Type: SIMB
Initial Location: Beaufort Sea
Deployment: UW-WARM Array
Co-located Instruments: 50m WARM Buoy, Side Kick Web cam, ICEX Drifting buoy, SVP

Conditions at Deployment (3/9/2017):

Snow Depth: 0 cm
Ice Thickness: 85 cm


Current Buoy Data (07/24/2017):

Pos: 76.99 N, 150.75 W

Air Temp: -1.9 C
Air Pres: 1002.7 mb

Current Ice Observations (07/24/2017)

Snow depth : 0 cm
Ice thickness : 38 cm

Since Deployment (03/09/2017)

All Snow Melted
Ice Surface Melt: 33 cm

Ice Bottom Melt : 43 cm

Status of Instrumentation:

All Sensors reporting
A couple Spurious Snow depths after snow on 4/14/17
Many bad Sounder Readings after 7/5/17

A week ago:

Quote
Ice thickness : 56 cm [down from 79 in week to 17 july]
Since Deployment (03/09/2017)
All Snow Melted
Ice Surface Melt: 30 cm
Ice Bottom Melt : 32 cm
Policy: The diversion of NZ aluminum production to build giant space-mirrors to melt the icecaps and destroy the foolish greed-worshiping cities of man. Thereby returning man to the sea, which he should never have left in the first place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGillicuddy_Serious_Party

oren

  • Moderator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7766
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3044
  • Likes Given: 3059
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1608 on: July 26, 2017, 01:00:01 AM »
Looking at 2017A and 2017B's melt rate graphically: 2017A, located in the Beaufort side of the CAB, IMHO should finish melting in 1-2 weeks. It is ~350km deep inside the pack but in a region of 75% concentration on the Bremen maps, a region which might disappear quickly if the buoy's floe is typical.
2017B between the pole and Fram seems like it could survive the season with its current melt rate. It is now ~300k deep inside the pack, at a region of 75-100% concentration. It is moving south at an average ~35km per week (highly variable), and its melt rate might increase sharply if it encounters Atlantic waters.

Jim Hunt

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5524
  • Stay Home, Save Lives
    • View Profile
    • The Arctic sea ice Great White Con
  • Liked: 734
  • Likes Given: 59
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1609 on: July 26, 2017, 01:16:09 AM »
One interesting thing I noticed on their page was the historic data from all the previous buoys showed more surface melting than bottom melt.

I guess you didn't get as far back as 2006C?

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/resources/ice-mass-balance-buoys/
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

Hyperion

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 375
  • Admiral Franklin of the McGillicuddy Highland Navy
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 127
  • Likes Given: 64
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1610 on: July 26, 2017, 02:10:49 AM »
Looking at 2017A and 2017B's melt rate graphically: 2017A, located in the Beaufort side of the CAB, IMHO should finish melting in 1-2 weeks. It is ~350km deep inside the pack but in a region of 75% concentration on the Bremen maps, a region which might disappear quickly if the buoy's floe is typical.
2017B between the pole and Fram seems like it could survive the season with its current melt rate. It is now ~300k deep inside the pack, at a region of 75-100% concentration. It is moving south at an average ~35km per week (highly variable), and its melt rate might increase sharply if it encounters Atlantic waters.

Yes, well itp95 is in the same place and its showing a significant rise in Salinity and temperature. [moving images, comment made day 206]


Also big plummet in dissolved oxygen suggests upwelling from depth.


I make it about here and its looking very loose and vulnerable to me.
Remember that the gulfstreams been deprived of its ability to evaporate water vapour and lose heat because of lack of Atlantic hurricanes last year, and being under a lid of fresher meltwater since off New York. Its probably hotter and fresher than we've ever recorded before and may be much more buoyant than anyone is expecting.
Second image about 150 by 300km
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 01:29:37 AM by Hyperion »
Policy: The diversion of NZ aluminum production to build giant space-mirrors to melt the icecaps and destroy the foolish greed-worshiping cities of man. Thereby returning man to the sea, which he should never have left in the first place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGillicuddy_Serious_Party

vigilius

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 129
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 5
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1611 on: July 26, 2017, 03:46:47 AM »
Just a little gif comparing the 17th to the 25th at 2300 hrs, click to animate. Even after a whole week, the only major difference I can see is that all the melt ponds have filled back up a bit. Despite all the southward movement, this little bit of ice we can see is still hanging together for now.

Tor Bejnar

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4320
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 839
  • Likes Given: 716
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1612 on: July 26, 2017, 04:27:00 AM »
Another difference is the very thin (mm thickness) ice that froze over the edges of the melt ponds (that appears white when the water level drops a little due to air getting below the thin skim of ice) is all gone.
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things because "we cannot negotiate with the melting point of ice"

Jim Hunt

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5524
  • Stay Home, Save Lives
    • View Profile
    • The Arctic sea ice Great White Con
  • Liked: 734
  • Likes Given: 59
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1613 on: July 26, 2017, 11:55:02 AM »
Yes, well itp95 is in the same place and its showing a significant rise in Salinity and temperature.

Is there any chance you could refrain from linking to live ITP plots in future? Whatever point you are attempting to make will become even more difficult to discern as the days, weeks and months pass.

2017B between the pole and Fram seems like it could survive the season with its current melt rate.

Based on past performance 2017B will melt out in the Fram Strait before the year is out.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

oren

  • Moderator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7766
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3044
  • Likes Given: 3059
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1614 on: July 26, 2017, 12:00:38 PM »
Based on past performance 2017B will melt out in the Fram Strait before the year is out.
I'm wondering whether the floe and its surroundings survive to mid-Sep to participate in the minimum figures.

Tor Bejnar

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4320
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 839
  • Likes Given: 716
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1615 on: July 26, 2017, 03:42:05 PM »
O-Buoy 14 is on the move again, after a 2-day virtual stall.  But looking at the camera tab, it's a dreary, damp, overcast and calm day. (A little smudge - water droplet? - on the photo [July 25 Sentinel Playground image with current location circled])
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 04:26:07 PM by Tor Bejnar »
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things because "we cannot negotiate with the melting point of ice"

Hyperion

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 375
  • Admiral Franklin of the McGillicuddy Highland Navy
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 127
  • Likes Given: 64
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1616 on: July 27, 2017, 01:38:52 AM »
Quote
Is there any chance you could refrain from linking to live ITP plots in future? Whatever point you are attempting to make will become even more difficult to discern as the days, weeks and months pass.

Sorry if you fin it offensive. I've put a comment on the post in red with the day to reduce the confusion. I kind of like being able to check on how things are unfolding without having to go to the buoysites personally. The temps and salinity still seem to be fattening fast especially upward in the Atlantic layer. And the surface has now spiked in temp.
Policy: The diversion of NZ aluminum production to build giant space-mirrors to melt the icecaps and destroy the foolish greed-worshiping cities of man. Thereby returning man to the sea, which he should never have left in the first place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGillicuddy_Serious_Party

Hyperion

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 375
  • Admiral Franklin of the McGillicuddy Highland Navy
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 127
  • Likes Given: 64
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1617 on: July 27, 2017, 03:42:57 AM »
Obuoy 14...

Don't think those are meltponds anymore. Thats gotta be sea level. Looking at the temp and humidity around 95% for the last week at least its been constantly dewing water vapour and dumping latent heat into that slush. raising the temp to zero C all the way to the bottom. The buoys been rocking and rolling so it can't be much thickness left anyway, and those "ponds" all look the same level and rather dark.
Policy: The diversion of NZ aluminum production to build giant space-mirrors to melt the icecaps and destroy the foolish greed-worshiping cities of man. Thereby returning man to the sea, which he should never have left in the first place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGillicuddy_Serious_Party

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 8019
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1176
  • Likes Given: 575
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1618 on: July 27, 2017, 07:58:22 AM »
Sorry if you fin it offensive. I've put a comment on the post in red with the day to reduce the confusion. I kind of like being able to check on how things are unfolding without having to go to the buoysites personally. The temps and salinity still seem to be fattening fast especially upward in the Atlantic layer. And the surface has now spiked in temp.

No one is offended, but you could also try to download the image (right-click, 'save as') and then upload it to the forum (click 'attachments and other options' and then 'browse' to link to the downloaded image file).
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Hyperion

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 375
  • Admiral Franklin of the McGillicuddy Highland Navy
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 127
  • Likes Given: 64
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1619 on: July 27, 2017, 09:05:26 AM »
No one is offended, but you could also try to download the image (right-click, 'save as') and then upload it to the forum (click 'attachments and other options' and then 'browse' to link to the downloaded image file).

Danke Schoen Meine Fuehrer!
Dis ist Korrect, Yah!
I did not realize I could do that.  ::)
Policy: The diversion of NZ aluminum production to build giant space-mirrors to melt the icecaps and destroy the foolish greed-worshiping cities of man. Thereby returning man to the sea, which he should never have left in the first place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGillicuddy_Serious_Party

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 8019
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1176
  • Likes Given: 575
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1620 on: July 27, 2017, 10:01:11 AM »
Danke Schoen Meine Fuehrer!
Dis ist Korrect, Yah!
I did not realize I could do that.  ::)

Someone may get offended now.  ::)
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Jim Hunt

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5524
  • Stay Home, Save Lives
    • View Profile
    • The Arctic sea ice Great White Con
  • Liked: 734
  • Likes Given: 59
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1621 on: July 27, 2017, 12:14:03 PM »
I did not realize I could do that.  ::)

I did demonstrate the technique, not so very long ago:

http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,327.msg121711.html#msg121711
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

Hyperion

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 375
  • Admiral Franklin of the McGillicuddy Highland Navy
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 127
  • Likes Given: 64
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1622 on: July 27, 2017, 01:11:01 PM »
Strewth! I have a knowledge archive that includes several million images that I have right clicked and saved over the years, and several hundred times in the last couple of months I've done this and attached them to posts on this forum. And I'll thank you not to insult my German ancestry too! My great grandmother was kept in a labour camp here in NZ till seven years after WW1 because her parents came from Hamburg in the 1860s. I have muslim yugoslavian ancestors, also Dutch, Scottish, Welsh, English, Northern and Southern Irish with Spanish from the Armada involved there too. Most of my ancestors were born in great wars, and sodded off down here to get away from bricks through the windows cause they married the enemy. Can we lighten up a little?
 
Policy: The diversion of NZ aluminum production to build giant space-mirrors to melt the icecaps and destroy the foolish greed-worshiping cities of man. Thereby returning man to the sea, which he should never have left in the first place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGillicuddy_Serious_Party

Jim Hunt

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5524
  • Stay Home, Save Lives
    • View Profile
    • The Arctic sea ice Great White Con
  • Liked: 734
  • Likes Given: 59
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1623 on: July 27, 2017, 03:40:11 PM »
Several hundred times in the last couple of months I've done this and attached them to posts on this forum.

Can you do so with ITP plots in this thread please?

Quote
Can we lighten up a little?

Can you respond to this point please?

http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,327.msg122354.html#msg122354
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

greatdying2

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 574
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1624 on: July 27, 2017, 04:36:37 PM »
Can you do so with ITP plots in this thread please?
Why can't he post what he wants to post? If you want the captured images you are free to do it yourself. What the hell is going on with ASIF lately??
The Permian–Triassic extinction event, a.k.a. the Great Dying, occurred about 250 million years ago and is the most severe known extinction event. Up to 96% of all marine species and 70% of terrestrial vertebrate species became extinct; it is also the only known mass extinction of insects.

Peter Ellis

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 619
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 33
  • Likes Given: 14
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1625 on: July 27, 2017, 04:43:47 PM »
Exactly, it's like posting a link to a live webcam saying "look at the birdie!" 

Anyone coming along more than a few seconds later will just be confused, because there is no longer any birdie.

Jim Hunt

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5524
  • Stay Home, Save Lives
    • View Profile
    • The Arctic sea ice Great White Con
  • Liked: 734
  • Likes Given: 59
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1626 on: July 27, 2017, 04:49:06 PM »
If you want the captured images you are free to do it yourself.

I did that once already, but it didn't get me very far!

Quote
What the hell is going on with ASIF lately??

It seems that these days some people on here are unwilling to debate the science.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 8019
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1176
  • Likes Given: 575
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1627 on: July 27, 2017, 08:06:24 PM »
It seems that these days some people on here are unwilling to debate the science.

FYI, I'm not going to put up with this indefinitely. It's costing too much time and energy, and I'm supposed to be on a sabbatical.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

oren

  • Moderator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7766
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3044
  • Likes Given: 3059
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1628 on: July 27, 2017, 08:13:07 PM »
Back on topic, top melt at our little friend has visibly resumed. Despite what seems like essentially the same scene at first glance, all watery areas in the image are wider on the 27th. Click.

bairgon

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 133
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 15
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1629 on: July 27, 2017, 08:41:01 PM »
That is starting to look quite like this pic from the Nordica:

From David "Duke" Snider, ice pilot aboard Nordica:

Plus thick FYI in Peel Sound:



magnamentis

  • Guest
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1630 on: July 27, 2017, 10:09:35 PM »
Based on past performance 2017B will melt out in the Fram Strait before the year is out.
I'm wondering whether the floe and its surroundings survive to mid-Sep to participate in the minimum figures.

the buoy is moving south very quickly and will soon reach the are where will be open water in a few days from now. hence i would surprised if there would be any ice surrounding o-buoy 14 at the end of the melting seasen, provided of course that the buoy doesn't changer "course"

Pmt111500

  • Guest
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1631 on: July 28, 2017, 10:29:53 AM »
Back on topic, top melt at our little friend has visibly resumed. Despite what seems like essentially the same scene at first glance, all watery areas in the image are wider on the 27th. Click.

50cm ice + 20cm snow? I'm rather much eyeballing with limited experience on thickly snowed on ice.

Pmt111500

  • Guest
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1632 on: July 28, 2017, 11:01:00 AM »
That is starting to look quite like this pic from the Nordica:

From David "Duke" Snider, ice pilot aboard Nordica:

Plus thick FYI in Peel Sound:



a flooded floe, 1st year since it still holds together under water. Happens pretty commonly on rivers. (funny thing but you can still safely walk on this if you are a republican.)
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 11:39:52 AM by Pmt111500 »

Hyperion

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 375
  • Admiral Franklin of the McGillicuddy Highland Navy
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 127
  • Likes Given: 64
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1633 on: July 28, 2017, 11:48:15 AM »
Been a couple of interesting readings in the last few days on the ITP95 charts, the buoy Nth of Fram strait co-located with 2017B. Shes basically drifted due east 10 km in the last 3 days since the 24th July update to now 84.9N 8.76E on the 27th. Inset on the sentinel hi res image are 20x20km worldview tiles of the exact spot on the 27th, small one unadulterated and the larger with as much detail as I could wring out of the fog. The big Sentinel image is as close as I could get a clear shot, from the 25th and goes to 83 nth and 7 east. Should be pretty similar Ice conditions I would think.

I've put a frozen pic of what I commented on a few days ago here too for those who seem to really want it.

Anyway. Seems to have been an upwelling of low oxygen water from 1km+ depth. And perhaps a small rise in the salinity associated. Perhaps a slight temperature boost towards the surface and fattening of the warm strata, but difficult to say it was a contributor.
Then soon after there's a big down spike in the temperature and salinity contours, particularly at about 150 to 200m. About a 30m downwards excursion.
Are the two associated? Is this an ekman pumping vortex, or some other phenomenon? Has a plume of more saline water risen, perhaps methane, or hydrothermally  driven, then cooled and descended.
I've been pondering if another mixing factor could come into play, around a certain floe diameter, perhaps optimised in the couple of hundred meters to a km range, when open water is surrounding floes like these. If the bottom is salty, and melts at -1.8 or so as with recently formed ice that's concentrated its brine at the bottom of the floe. And the water around has risen in temp a bit due to a bit of insolation and air interaction. Perhaps a bit of fresher warmer surface melt adding to it, aided by the humidity condensing on floes thin enough to be conducting the energy to their base which is pegged by salinity to below zero.
Wouldn't there be a tendency for water to sink under the flow, and draw in more water from the periphery to replace it? Is this plausibly a significant mixing process in a poorly seasoned FYI ocean state like we now have? This floe has registered twice as much bottom melt as top melt.
I guess that the open water areas being in the order of a km there is plenty of opportunity for wind induced surface movement, chop, and turbulence anyway.
Policy: The diversion of NZ aluminum production to build giant space-mirrors to melt the icecaps and destroy the foolish greed-worshiping cities of man. Thereby returning man to the sea, which he should never have left in the first place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGillicuddy_Serious_Party

Hyperion

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 375
  • Admiral Franklin of the McGillicuddy Highland Navy
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 127
  • Likes Given: 64
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1634 on: July 28, 2017, 11:54:12 AM »

a flooded floe, 1st year since it still holds together under water. Happens pretty commonly on rivers. (funny thing but you can still safely walk on this if you are a republican.)

But you can make out the disturbance of the ships track in the background. It looks slushy enough that its just being pushed out of the way by the bow-wave, then swirling around and closing up again behind the ship?
Policy: The diversion of NZ aluminum production to build giant space-mirrors to melt the icecaps and destroy the foolish greed-worshiping cities of man. Thereby returning man to the sea, which he should never have left in the first place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGillicuddy_Serious_Party

Jim Hunt

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5524
  • Stay Home, Save Lives
    • View Profile
    • The Arctic sea ice Great White Con
  • Liked: 734
  • Likes Given: 59
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1635 on: July 28, 2017, 12:37:19 PM »
But you can make out the disturbance of the ships track in the background.

No you can't. The image is looking over the bow of the Nordica:



I suspect this image taken in Larsen Sound is more likely to be representative of the area around O-Buoy-14:



Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

Jim Hunt

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5524
  • Stay Home, Save Lives
    • View Profile
    • The Arctic sea ice Great White Con
  • Liked: 734
  • Likes Given: 59
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1636 on: July 28, 2017, 12:44:33 PM »
I've put a frozen pic of what I commented on a few days ago here too for those who seem to really want it.

At least we now have a static image to discuss.

Quote
Seems to have been an upwelling of low oxygen water from 1km+ depth.

Personally I can't see how you could have an upwelling of water from 1km+ depth without it being evident in the salinity plots. Can anybody else, apart from Hyperion?
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

Shared Humanity

  • Guest
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1637 on: July 28, 2017, 03:25:52 PM »
It seems that these days some people on here are unwilling to debate the science.

FYI, I'm not going to put up with this indefinitely. It's costing too much time and energy, and I'm supposed to be on a sabbatical.

I'm beginning to think that your sabbatical has been the primary cause of this forum slowly devolving into a hot mess. We may have underestimated your influence as you would periodically check in and quietly chastise us. Could you check into cloning yourself?   8)

magnamentis

  • Guest
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1638 on: July 28, 2017, 04:37:39 PM »
o-buoy made quite some headways to the south, is now located at around 72.9 North, no significant change in longitude though. further south it will take only a few days of sunshine to change the scene significantly, we gonna see that soon, interesting times like so often with this little friend of ours ;)

woodstea

  • New ice
  • Posts: 87
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 13
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1639 on: July 28, 2017, 04:54:43 PM »
I agree. Looks like winds should continue to blow from the north for the next day or two. Farther out ECMWF has some heat in the forecast toward the end of the week. I'll be surprised if the O-Buoy 14 hasn't broken loose by that time, but I guess we'll see.

epiphyte

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 385
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 20
  • Likes Given: 19
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1640 on: July 28, 2017, 05:04:25 PM »


a flooded floe, 1st year since it still holds together under water. Happens pretty commonly on rivers. (funny thing but you can still safely walk on this if you are a republican.)
[/quote]

Several republicans I know would still be out there on their snowmobiles! (... evolution in action, I suspect )

woodstea

  • New ice
  • Posts: 87
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 13
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1641 on: July 28, 2017, 05:15:43 PM »
Several republicans I know would still be out there on their snowmobiles! (... evolution in action, I suspect )

Only if it's pre-breeding.

Well, in any case, it does look like my hope for the buoy making it out to the Labrador Sea before dying is all but lost. Now I am thinking it would be nice if it could make it down into Terror Bay off King William Island. Perhaps on the way we could get a webcam shot of the Crystal Serenity.

magnamentis

  • Guest
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1642 on: July 28, 2017, 05:23:45 PM »
Several republicans I know would still be out there on their snowmobiles! (... evolution in action, I suspect )

Only if it's pre-breeding.

Well, in any case, it does look like my hope for the buoy making it out to the Labrador Sea before dying is all but lost. Now I am thinking it would be nice if it could make it down into Terror Bay off King William Island. Perhaps on the way we could get a webcam shot of the Crystal Serenity.

since i really like optimistic people my congrats for you very strong optimism, i'd never have thought it could make it that far while like you, i initially thought it would take the way down through baffin and davis. i dunno enough about currents in those passages but looking at the ice drift i suspect that surface winds are in charge as to where what floes in that area.

woodstea

  • New ice
  • Posts: 87
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 13
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1643 on: July 28, 2017, 05:37:56 PM »
since i really like optimistic people my congrats for you very strong optimism, i'd never have thought it could make it that far while like you, i initially thought it would take the way down through baffin and davis. i dunno enough about currents in those passages but looking at the ice drift i suspect that surface winds are in charge as to where what floes in that area.

Me neither, but after it made it through the winter I figure anything's possible.

My other scenario is that it gets picked up by a ship in the Queen Maud Gulf and ends up at Cambridge Bay, where it becomes an exhibit at the Canadian High Arctic Research Station. If that happened I would make it a bucket list goal to travel there some day and see it in person. I'm a big fan.

FishOutofWater

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 994
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 637
  • Likes Given: 275
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1644 on: July 28, 2017, 05:41:14 PM »
???

Remember that the gulfstreams been deprived of its ability to evaporate water vapour and lose heat because of lack of Atlantic hurricanes last year, and being under a lid of fresher meltwater since off New York. Its probably hotter and fresher than we've ever recorded before and may be much more buoyant than anyone is expecting.

So we didn't get 80 cm rainfall in North Carolina from hurricane Matthew? The massive flooding was fake news and a figment of my imagination? My basement didn't fill with water?

You know, scientists actually measure temperature heat content and salinity in the north Atlantic.
https://www.nodc.noaa.gov/OC5/3M_HEAT_CONTENT/
Your wild assertions are not supported by evidence. There is a pool of cool fresh water south east of Greenland. There is a pool of cool fresh water in the Beaufort gyre. The Gulf Stream, however, is not getting fresher. The salinity of the Gulf Stream and subtropical Atlantic has increased.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 06:10:50 PM by FishOutofWater »

woodstea

  • New ice
  • Posts: 87
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 13
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1645 on: July 28, 2017, 05:56:32 PM »
Fish, was that meant for another forum somewhere? Seems a bit out of context, maybe I'm missing something.

sedziobs

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 63
  • Likes Given: 12
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1646 on: July 28, 2017, 08:07:46 PM »
Remember that the gulfstreams been deprived of its ability to evaporate water vapour and lose heat because of lack of Atlantic hurricanes last year, and being under a lid of fresher meltwater since off New York. Its probably hotter and fresher than we've ever recorded before and may be much more buoyant than anyone is expecting.
This is the message FishOutofWater was responding to, a bit upthread (click the bold header above the quote to go to the full post).

Tor Bejnar

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4320
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 839
  • Likes Given: 716
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1647 on: July 28, 2017, 08:14:21 PM »
Here's the GPS data that a couple folks referenced. 
Where there are ripples there is wind.  [or earthquakes or ships or ...   :o :D :-\]
I do wonder how connected this water is to the ocean water below.  As far as I know, it could be very little to quite a lot.
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things because "we cannot negotiate with the melting point of ice"

woodstea

  • New ice
  • Posts: 87
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 13
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1648 on: July 28, 2017, 09:16:45 PM »
This is the message FishOutofWater was responding to, a bit upthread (click the bold header above the quote to go to the full post).

Thanks, I see it now. It's weird -- I did a search of the whole forum for a couple of keywords from the bit Fish appeared to be responding to and that didn't come up, just Fish's response.

I'm not always the best at reading all the theoretical stuff about salinity, albedo, etc. I'm sure it's important, but at times it seems like not everyone using these terms has the scientific background to back them up.

Ice Shieldz

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 249
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 59
  • Likes Given: 58
Re: What the Buoys are telling
« Reply #1649 on: July 29, 2017, 02:37:06 AM »
Just created a new topic that continues the thread of determining ocean heat content and salinity. see - http://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2123.msg122753.html#msg122753