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Author Topic: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption  (Read 118758 times)

oren

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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #750 on: May 28, 2023, 12:06:33 AM »
The assumed capacity factor in the study for solar PV is 14.2% which appears quite low, and is based for some reason on numbers from 2015, although the study is from 2020.

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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #751 on: May 28, 2023, 01:23:27 AM »
The assumed capacity factor in the study for solar PV is 14.2% which appears quite low, and is based for some reason on numbers from 2015, although the study is from 2020.

Ah but then you have to walk the references.

de Castro, C.; Capellán-Pérez, I. Concentrated Solar Power: Actual Performanc

You would think would specify the actual performance of the panels right?  But no, you have to keep walking the reference links through

Quantifying a realistic, worldwide wind and solar electricity supply

to

A.J. Carr et al.
A comparison of the performance of different PV module types in temperate climates
Solar Energy
(2004)

Where you actually get a performance rating for 5 different solar panels.  Although the article does reference some work from 1998.

Quote
In this work the performance of PV modules based on five different technologies has been compared. These are: single crystal silicon (c-Si), p-Si, triple junction a-Si, copper indium di-selenide (CIS) and the laser grooved buried contact (LGBC) c-Si modules.

The results show marked differences in the behaviour and output of the different module types. The observed deterioration of the maximum power at STC of all the modules supports the results of similar work performed in both Switzerland by the Laboratory of Energy, Ecology and Economy (LEEE), at TISO (Chianese et al., 2000; LEEE, 2000), and in the Netherlands by the Netherlands Energy Research Foundation ECN, at Petten (Eikelboom and Jansen, 2000).

At this point I don't have time to walk through the entire article to find out if they included any other actual reference testing.

In 2000 the average capacity factor for utility scale solar was around 13%.  In 2021 it was around 17%.
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #752 on: May 28, 2023, 03:01:39 AM »
Capacity factor can be based on the DC capacity or AC capacity of the facility. Generally AC capacity is about 70% of DC capacity though designs can vary. Generally it is assumed plant size is based on AC capacity unless specifically stated as DC capacity. The AC capacity is the full capacity that can be placed on the grid at anyone time so the logical assumption is that this full capacity is what is used for calculating the capacity factor. One can choose to be misleading going against norms and calculate capacity factor based on DC full capacity. This would produce much lower capacity factors. Scientific etiquette at the very least requires clarity in reporting. If on the other hand your purpose is to confuse and mislead ..


US annual solar capacity factor is 25%. The average is weighted by how much capacity is installed where. That is based on the AC capacity of US solar plants. Some of those plants are built near the Canadian border and others near the Mexican border. The weighted average likely skews to the southern US. Solar capacity factor in summer months is roughly double maybe a bit higher than in winter months. The average capacity factor for coastal Pacific Northwest, the UK or other overcast regions are much lower than sunnier locations at similar latitudes.

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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #753 on: May 28, 2023, 04:16:53 AM »
I have the proper paper's link, would you like me to give it to you?
Only if you have time between watching your videos

Look things are currently tight actually, so let me get back to you on that.
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #754 on: May 28, 2023, 05:53:40 AM »
The assumed capacity factor in the study for solar PV is 14.2% which appears quite low, and is based for some reason on numbers from 2015, although the study is from 2020.

Quite low? What is the acceptable assumed capacity factor for Solar PV? On what up-to-date science and source are these standards based upon? Lazards, IPCC, IEA, EU, BP some recent major review study....?  And are these the "average" for all kinds of current Solar PV manufacturing or do they produce separate capacity factors for the broad range of variations?

I'm curious, as these things are important and I am so out of date (apparently.) And I want to be up to speed and not left behind. But personally I think basing their numbers from 2015 was intentional.  Do you?
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SeanAU

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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #755 on: May 28, 2023, 06:03:45 AM »
Capacity factor can be based on the DC capacity or AC capacity of the facility. Generally AC capacity is about 70% of DC capacity though designs can vary. Generally it is assumed plant size is based on AC capacity unless specifically stated as DC capacity. The AC capacity is the full capacity that can be placed on the grid at anyone time so the logical assumption is that this full capacity is what is used for calculating the capacity factor. One can choose to be misleading going against norms and calculate capacity factor based on DC full capacity. This would produce much lower capacity factors. Scientific etiquette at the very least requires clarity in reporting. If on the other hand your purpose is to confuse and mislead ..


US annual solar capacity factor is 25%. The average is weighted by how much capacity is installed where. That is based on the AC capacity of US solar plants. Some of those plants are built near the Canadian border and others near the Mexican border. The weighted average likely skews to the southern US. Solar capacity factor in summer months is roughly double maybe a bit higher than in winter months. The average capacity factor for coastal Pacific Northwest, the UK or other overcast regions are much lower than sunnier locations at similar latitudes.

Generally AC capacity is about 70% of DC capacity though designs can vary.  Your source?

.... so the logical assumption is that this full capacity is what is used for calculating the capacity factor. Your source?


Scientific etiquette at the very least requires clarity in reporting. If on the other hand your purpose is to confuse and mislead .. Who are you talking to, referring to here?

Social media and ASIF / science etiquette (afaik) is to properly reference what or to whom you are responding to. Otherwise it just leads to unnecessary confusion and misunderstandings.

US annual solar capacity factor is 25%.  Your source?
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gerontocrat

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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #756 on: May 28, 2023, 06:47:22 AM »
This has been posted on the ASIF already. Maybe on "Renewable Energy" by interstitial. The data is based on an average of annual values from 2014 through 2017. It would be nice to have newer data, as it might show a modest uptick in performance.

Southwestern states have better solar resources and higher solar PV capacity factors

Quote

On average, utility-scale solar photovoltaic (PV) power plants in the United States operated at about 25% of their electricity generating capacity, based on an average of annual values from 2014 through 2017. This measurement, known as a plant’s capacity factor, is based on the plant’s electricity generation as a percentage of its summer capacity value for plants with a full-year of operation, as expressed in terms of alternating current (AC) power. States in the Southwest United States tend to have better solar resources—and higher capacity factors—than those in the Southeast or Northeast.

Arizona’s utility-scale solar PV plants performed better than those in any other state, achieving a 29.1% capacity factor from 2014 through 2017. Arizona’s installed utility-scale solar PV capacity was 1.7 gigawatts (GW) at the end of 2017, about 7% of the national total. Utah’s 0.9 GW of solar PV plants ranked second, with a 29.0% capacity factor. California’s utility-scale solar PV plants—totaling 9.4 GW, or 37% of the national total—ranked third with an average capacity factor of 28.4%.

By comparison, states in the Southeast, such as Georgia and North Carolina, had substantially lower PV capacity factors than southwestern states at similar latitudes. States in the Northeast, such as New Jersey and Massachusetts, had even lower capacity factors.

Three main factors largely determine a solar PV power plant’s capacity factor: resource quality, tracking capabilities, and inverter-sizing considerations. Sunnier locations, such as in the southwestern United States, have more hours of direct, high-angle sunlight per year, and as a result, the solar PV modules can capture more sunlight.

The addition of equipment to track the sun’s angle, either within a day (single-axis tracking) or across seasons (dual-axis tracking), further helps to maximize energy input into the PV system. Larger inverters—which convert the direct current produced by solar PV panels to grid-ready AC power—can also help to increase the total output of a system.


https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=39832#:~:text=Three%20main%20factors%20largely%20determine,%2C%20and%20inverter%2Dsizing%20considerations.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2023, 06:57:49 AM by gerontocrat »
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #757 on: May 28, 2023, 10:40:09 AM »
Just to give an example for wind

The farm used as an example in the study is the London Array, which is 11 years old now and has a CF 5-10% lower than those built in the last 7 years.

https://energynumbers.info/uk-offshore-wind-capacity-factors
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #758 on: May 28, 2023, 03:26:05 PM »
Just to give an example for wind

The farm used as an example in the study is the London Array, which is 11 years old now and has a CF 5-10% lower than those built in the last 7 years.

https://energynumbers.info/uk-offshore-wind-capacity-factors

As I said, studies based on studies based on studies.  The further back the actual analysis of the technology the worse the figures.

It is not too difficult to get the result you want by taking a newer study as your reference point which, in itself, contains no actual test reference data.  This study will have references to older studies where the testing was done and these older studies are guaranteed to produce a far lower benchmark due to the rapid pace of advancement in the technology.
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #759 on: May 29, 2023, 04:26:39 AM »
I read an article that Europe passed a law requiring that AC capacity was no more than 70% of DC capacity. I have seen many US projects that have around that ratio of AC to DC. You can search for it yourself if you desire.


The source for 25% capacity factor for US solar is EIA data. Monthly capacity data is given and I plot the average over the previous 12 months. As you can see this comes out near 25% consistently. Between April 2022 and March 2023 (the most current data available) The lowest was 13.1% in Dec 2022 and the highest was 33.4% in June 2022. The average was 24.1% which is a bit lower than typical.

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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #760 on: May 29, 2023, 04:29:37 AM »
.... so the logical assumption is that this full capacity is what is used for calculating the capacity factor. Your source?

If you do not understand the topic it makes it much harder to have intelligent questions. Asking for a source indicates you do not understand.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2023, 04:50:19 AM by interstitial »

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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #761 on: May 29, 2023, 04:53:28 AM »
Scientific etiquette at the very least requires clarity in reporting. If on the other hand your purpose is to confuse and mislead .. Who are you talking to, referring to here?
I am talking to anyone who would choose to list capacity factor based on DC capacity and not AC capacity.

NeilT

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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #762 on: May 29, 2023, 02:17:09 PM »
Scientific etiquette at the very least requires clarity in reporting. If on the other hand your purpose is to confuse and mislead .. Who are you talking to, referring to here?
I am talking to anyone who would choose to list capacity factor based on DC capacity and not AC capacity.

A lack of understanding of what Capacity Factor actually is would lead to some explanation of the comments.
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #763 on: May 30, 2023, 01:41:40 AM »
Back to basics I suppose. Sigh
Capacity factor is a percentage measure of how much something runs. If a factory has a full capacity of producing 100 widgets a year and it produces 50.
capacity factor = amount produced / total capacity = 50/100 or 50%


On a solar farm DC power is produced by solar panels but the grid generally distributes AC power. Yes I am aware of high voltage DC lines but lets not confuse the issue for people who do not even understand capacity factor.


DC solar panels only produce more than 70% of their rated output some small single digit percent of the time. Inverters cost money so coupling a larger invertor is by convention or sometimes by regulation not done.


Even when the panels produce more dc electricity than the ac capacity the ac capacity always limits the amount of electricity that can be sent to the grid at one time. If you take this capacity and multiply it by the time period you get the total production possible. Suppose DC capacity is 10 MW and AC capacity is 7 MW the maximum amount of power than can be sent onto the grid by that connection is
total capacity = instantaneous capacity x time unit = 7 MW x 24 hours = 168 MWH
So in this case no more than 168 MWH can be produced per day.
If the plant produces 32 MWH that day then capacity factor is
capacity factor = amount produced / total capacity = 32 / 168 MWH


Now I have for the second time on this forum explained the simple concept of capacity factor for people unwilling to take a few minutes time to learn something for themselves by the simple expedient of using a search engine. If it were complex than I can understand not wanting to spend hours trying to understand the subject and asking for an explanation. That was not the case here. I do not mind spending the time if someone wants to learn but I tire of explaining to the disinformation crowd.






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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #764 on: May 30, 2023, 10:44:15 AM »
It's easy to understand what capacity factor is, but you complicate it with the DC-AC conversion for PV. Isn't the capacity of PV installations always rated as AC?
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #765 on: May 30, 2023, 11:50:22 AM »
And it is not complicated enough. The possible Max value of a solar PV array is based on the time of year and the latitude.  Roughly it is in w/m2 and that max is only for a few hours of the day.

So time is not 24 hours.  Time, if you want absolute max, is from dawn to dusk on the longest day.

Solar tends to be calculated with an average for the day, averaged over the year and averaged with poor weather over the year and then calculated via the w/m2 for the location of the panels.

The same solar array at one latitude will have an entirely different capacity factor at another latitude.
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #766 on: May 30, 2023, 07:26:24 PM »
New video has lots of data showing the transition to clean technology is well underway.  Progress predicted a few years ago and dismissed at that time as “insane” is already occurring.

“It’s not about having an optimistic attitude.  It’s the data that tell us that clean technologies will disrupt energy, transportation, food and labor.  And fast.  Not 50 to 100 years from now.  But over just the next 15 years or so.  And that’s why there has never been greater reason to be optimistic about the future of the environment.”

Brighter | Episode 4 - What is disruption?
15 minutes.  May 26, 2023
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #767 on: May 30, 2023, 09:21:15 PM »
You can improve your capacity factor by having panels oriented in different directions. If you have south-west oriented panels, you can add some that would be south-east oriented without needing to increase the capacity of the inverter, which means that you will produce electricity during a longer time.

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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #768 on: May 30, 2023, 09:40:40 PM »
Vertical panels are starting to appear, mainly because they generate most on the morning and evening, so avoiding the excess peak at midday.
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #769 on: May 31, 2023, 05:08:47 AM »
a quick catch up for interstitial

The source for 25% capacity factor for US solar is EIA data. Monthly capacity data is given and I plot the average over the previous 12 months.

It sounds like you're saying that you created the graph yourself from IEA data. If so, well done, great job interstitial.

Not knowing the answers to X is not the only reason ask questions btw. But I was genuinely curious where you were getting all your numbers/conclusions from, so I asked. These vary all the time by source, time frames and what the assumptions are, so it is a typically confusing "landscape".

Still I don't know the parameters/assumptions behind the IEA US solar numbers, not complaining, merely saying. The critically key point is they vary all the time. Nothing is stable in wind/solar capacity output unlike coal gas nuclear and even hydro and geothermal. Despite the averaging out making it appear as if it is.

These are the challenges of being able to predict how much real electricity production a wind/solar plant from one location to the next might deliver in the future - the variations are extreme and when compared to the design of the current grid system "unnatural". Averaging of all kinds covers up the dysfunctional reality (imo) but whatever.

The rapidly arriving major changes in the regional climates - and therefore extreme weather events and regional shifts of the "norm" - will seriously impact actual capacity outputs into the future vs what is predicted and expected today. They must because both wind and solar are 100% impacted by the weather every day - when the climate changes the daily weather has already changed - but these things are unknowable and unpredictable at this point.

Yes there are "fixes" for low capacity periods but all of them make the system all that more complex - complexity costs in $, in energy costs, lowering stability and reliability. It makes the whole supply system more expensive and much more fragile. The future is very complex and at present I'd suggest extremely unknowable despite all the hypothetical predictions eg Jacobson 100% WWS etc which are unsupported in practice.     

Back to basics I suppose. Sigh
Capacity factor is a percentage measure of how much something runs.


Excellent, well done. iow Capacity Factors of every wind/solar plant are moving all the time 24/7/365 year ..... meaning the potential production output available to a grid system (or even singular industrial factory) at any moment in time in every location on earth is changing every minute of every hour 24/7/365 days per year. If I correctly understand the proposed "system" we are heading toward, and I believe I do.   

What doesn't get enough airing is the time when there is a zero capacity factor in wind and solar production output.

It's telling how Coal capacity factors have dropped from 60% down to 40% - that's not because coal power plants have become less efficient, and can't work as hard or as long as they used to work. Coal plants actually belong up in the +85% capacity factor level - which takes into consideration downtime for maintenance.  The same with the Gas powered capacity factors - these may be what actually happens as far as "output" is concerned in the US but if is not reflective of their real output capacity because both coal/gas are intentionally manually being shut down.

Whereas wind and solar being maximized as much as possible, their output is cut do real world conditions, not manual interference. That will not change in a 100% WWS renewable future, no matter how much the overbuild in total GW Capacity is, while gas and coal will not be there as a backup anymore - they will go to zero all the time if the "RET plan" is followed. 

With Solar at 25% it is not simply a matter of building out 4X the GW amount to get close to a 90% Capacity output. Nor will multiply Wind GW overbuilds by a factor of 3X achieve a 90% capacity output. Because every wind turbine and every solar panel suffers from the same vagaries of zero night time output, the seasonal changes at the same time, and the daily / weekly weather effects incl periods of zero wind - often at the very same time across an interconnected region - leading to unstable supply reliability incl blackouts and brown outs. 

It is merely assumed at this point that these things can all be overcome with technology fixes and excellent Planning and Design (aka more Complexity.) That is at least the theory, which has has never been achieved in practice.

Another issue is how capacity factors inter-connect into the "hypothetical" LCOE figures, and how these financial numbers combine to drive new plant construction when and where. But that's a nightmare to get into as well.

While past experience of output capacity over time, such as the data averaging presented in those IEA graphs above, will be indicative of what the future holds overall -- for Wind, solar, geothermal, hydro, pumped hydro and battery storage output Capacity factors -- when it comes to each individual wind/solar plant being planned for and commissioned it will be difficult to know exactly how things will transpire beyond educated best guesstimates.

And when it comes to knowing what the maximum real world GW supply will be from one moment to the next for each regional grid it will be impossible to predict imo. The grid system will collapse in localized places, inter-connectors and all on a rolling basis imo every time wind and solar cannot supply sufficient output to meet the demand.

It might become similar to what happened in the first half of the 20th century and into the 60s and 70s with coal fired power stations until the tech quality improved, much bigger power stations were built and in other places nuclear was introduced.

Because there will be no backup in the near future. And in some places this will be the case before the end of this decade. Or something else will be done before we get to that point. A different plan will be necessary, finally recognized and implemented.

At this point I expect (depending on the country) there will be hundreds of new coal fired power stations and hundreds of new small modular GenIV nuclear power plants under construction all over the world - starting in the West first which will be in a major energy crisis by the time 2030 arrives.

« Last Edit: May 31, 2023, 05:16:50 AM by SeanAU »
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #770 on: May 31, 2023, 05:10:08 AM »
I'll leave you with those thoughts fwiw. Unfortunately I can't say it has been an enjoyable experience, because it hasn't.  My bad because I was warned beforehand.
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #771 on: May 31, 2023, 03:11:33 PM »
You can improve your capacity factor by having panels oriented in different directions. If you have south-west oriented panels, you can add some that would be south-east oriented without needing to increase the capacity of the inverter, which means that you will produce electricity during a longer time.

I was trying to work out how to convince my wife that one of these in the garden would work better than trying to fit it to the roof.



I have the garden space.
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #772 on: May 31, 2023, 07:17:16 PM »
A friend put solar panels on his roof 11 years ago (I helped) and then doubled his array with panels on steel posts 3 years later (a cheaper installation he said).  We will add another third to the roof of a new pole barn in the next couple of weeks (rails are already installed).  I recall reading some years ago that putting in a solar tracker cost more but was worth it. I imagine these could help prevent hail damage but it might be a problem for hurricanes.

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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #773 on: May 31, 2023, 08:17:35 PM »
Panels are cheap and reliable.
Trackers expensive and add potential failure points.
Adding panels facing west or east is more cost effective than trackers if you have the area available.
 
 
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #774 on: May 31, 2023, 09:14:54 PM »
I don't have the area and the roofs pretty much face the wrong  way.
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #775 on: June 01, 2023, 04:06:15 AM »


All these things you mention I have discussed on this site at length before. Whenever you get pinned down on a particular topic you pivot to something else. How long will you spend on this topic before you dodge it?

The variability was not your point before but now it is. So I respond to these comments when you gave up on your last point.

The US regulatory body is Energy Information Administration (EIA) not IEA. International Energy Agency (IEA) is a completely different agency. This is very basic.


It is harder to predict a single grid resource but the more important thing is predicting a regions resources. People who understand the topic use statistics and modeling and weather forecasting. Can they predict the exact output of a single resource a year in advance? No absolutely not. Do they need to know that? It would be nice but not really. Do they know within a range how much solar will be produced in each region? Absolutely. Renewables were only 20% of US electricity in 2022. So the share of renewable energy can triple or quadruple before intermittency becomes much of an issue. That is a long way off still and I see no reason not to use all of those fossil fuel plants as back up as long as they are needed.

Renewable "fuel" is free while coal and methane are expensive. Especially as supply disruptions result in massive price hikes from time to time.

The fall in coal capacity factors is primarily due to nearly one to one replacement by methane and has little to do with renewable energy. Renewable energy has had some impact on coal but to date that has been largely marginal. Eventually renewable energy will push out methane as methane has pushed out coal but at this point capacity factors for methane are climbing and have been for more than a decade alongside growth in methane capacity.

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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #776 on: June 01, 2023, 04:12:02 AM »
I'll leave you with those thoughts fwiw. Unfortunately I can't say it has been an enjoyable experience, because it hasn't.  My bad because I was warned beforehand.
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #777 on: June 07, 2023, 02:34:39 AM »

The fall in coal capacity factors is primarily due to nearly one to one replacement by methane and has little to do with renewable energy. Renewable energy has had some impact on coal but to date that has been largely marginal. Eventually renewable energy will push out methane as methane has pushed out coal but at this point capacity factors for methane are climbing and have been for more than a decade alongside growth in methane capacity.

This is one of the reasons I think we wont do the swap over quick enough... it is fossil fuel companies dragging the process out for as long as possible to maintain their profits.

I am fairly sure that if we focused on the true removal of fossil fuels, there wouldnt be any need to replace coal with other fossil fuels but that is just a gut feel based on keeping in touch with the topic and not deeper research.

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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #778 on: June 07, 2023, 04:50:20 AM »
Calling market tops is a fools game so I guess that makes me a fool. In the US we are quickly approaching a market top for methane in my opinion.  First for many years methane nameplate capacity has been growing and rather quickly. Now between Apr 2023 (next month for data) and Dec 2024 methane nameplate capacity is scheduled to decline by 2.6 GW. That is not a huge decline but it hides 8.5 GW of new methane and 11.3 GW of closures. Of that Apr 2023 and May 2023 account for 4.5 GW of the new methane. That means from now Jun 2023 little new methane will come online by Dec 2024. Beyond Dec 2024 most methane projects seem to be repowering coal or replacing coal plants. Those projects may yet be replaced by renewables instead of methane. For now from Apr 2023 to Dec 2028 the total change in the que is minus a net 1.5 GW of gas. Let me say that again for the next nearly 5 years the nameplate methane capacity in the US decreases by 1.5 GW from now.


Secondly the EIA has a short term outlook for US methane generated electricity. The short term outlooks in my experience are fairly accurate even if their longer term outlooks look wildly wrong to me. US electricity generation from methane was 39% for 2022 and forecast for 40% in 2023 and 38% in 2024. That also points to the US being at a top for methane in electricity production this year.


Coal was 20% in 2022 and forecast to be 17% in 2023 and 16% in 2024 so while in the past coal electricity was mostly replaced by methane  the US looks like coal will mostly be replaced by renewables from here on.

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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #779 on: June 07, 2023, 05:22:15 AM »
Calling market tops is a fools game so I guess that makes me a fool. In the US we are quickly approaching a market top for methane in my opinion.  First for many years methane nameplate capacity has been growing and rather quickly. Now between Apr 2023 (next month for data) and Dec 2024 methane nameplate capacity is scheduled to decline by 2.6 GW. That is not a huge decline but it hides 8.5 GW of new methane and 11.3 GW of closures. Of that Apr 2023 and May 2023 account for 4.5 GW of the new methane. That means from now Jun 2023 little new methane will come online by Dec 2024. Beyond Dec 2024 most methane projects seem to be repowering coal or replacing coal plants. Those projects may yet be replaced by renewables instead of methane. For now from Apr 2023 to Dec 2028 the total change in the que is minus a net 1.5 GW of gas. Let me say that again for the next nearly 5 years the nameplate methane capacity in the US decreases by 1.5 GW from now.


Secondly the EIA has a short term outlook for US methane generated electricity. The short term outlooks in my experience are fairly accurate even if their longer term outlooks look wildly wrong to me. US electricity generation from methane was 39% for 2022 and forecast for 40% in 2023 and 38% in 2024. That also points to the US being at a top for methane in electricity production this year.


Coal was 20% in 2022 and forecast to be 17% in 2023 and 16% in 2024 so while in the past coal electricity was mostly replaced by methane  the US looks like coal will mostly be replaced by renewables from here on.

That is good to hear.
Still.... that is what is happening while fossil fuel companies are slowing the process down (in my opinion anyway).
While this is a question that is intellectual only, I was thinking more about what could be done rather than what is being done.

What is happening in the US is good, but as with every country, it could be better. I dare not look at the progress of Australia (my home country) because I already know we are stalling on almost every front even with a new Govt that talks about moving fossil fuels out asap... it is mostly talk and what is being done is only to appease the public and to allow them to have positive talking points in the next election.

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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #780 on: June 07, 2023, 07:12:05 AM »
Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #781 on: June 07, 2023, 07:42:01 AM »
No need to directly move away from fossil fuels, just need to deploy solar and wind in much higher rates, far outpacing energy demand growth. The cheap resulting electricity will cause fossil generation to eventually drop, and plant closures should follow after a while.

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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #782 on: June 07, 2023, 08:08:21 AM »

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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #783 on: June 08, 2023, 01:57:17 PM »
Every month I show on the renewable energy thread how much energy is lost by using coal and natural gas to make electricity in the US. If you apply that globally the energy thrown away is basically enormous.

Yale connections have picked it up (from the ASIF?) and shown it for coal only in the US, with a nice animation, of which I have taken some images and attach as a gif.

It is a very powerful argument for pushing ahead as fast as possible on wind+solar, and the same equation applies to BEVs (but not so much with PHEVS)

https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2023/05/the-little-known-massive-advantage-that-renewables-hold-over-coal/
« Last Edit: June 08, 2023, 02:18:15 PM by gerontocrat »
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #784 on: June 09, 2023, 01:34:54 AM »
In the coal thread I posted about how a lack of enough new renewables generation results in more methane generation when coal closes.

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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #785 on: June 14, 2023, 07:14:45 PM »
This Is Why Nobody Will Do Anything Until It's Too Late
http://charleshughsmith.blogspot.com/2023/06/this-is-why-nobody-will-do-anything.html

I like a rousing story as much as anyone else, but systems aren't stories, and confusing the two won't actually fix what's not sustainable in the current system's configuration.

OK, I get it: we all like Hollywood endings: the superhero saves the world, the evil conspiracy is uncovered and the villains get their just desserts and the impossible romance overcomes all the odds. This is why there are Hollywood endings: we are hard-wired to thrill to happy endings and a successful conclusion to the Hero's / Heroine's Journey.

We will tolerate a Tragic Hero / Heroine or the occasional Anti-Hero / Heroine, but there is still a moral victory of some sort to cheer.

The real world doesn't follow a storyline, it operates according to the dictates of systems: inputs are taken up by processes which then generate outputs. If the outputs and processes don't change, the outputs don't change either.

One prevalent manifestation of human hubris is the idea that getting someone to agree with us about something or other is some sort of victory, as if human opinions matter. They don't, unless they change either inputs or processes in extremely consequential ways. Tweaking inputs or policies might make us feel warm and fuzzy ("I'm part of the solution!") but they are too modest to change the system's inputs and processes. The net result is the outputs remain the same.

Put another way: labeling something or other a hoax or an existential threat doesn't change anything in the systems that generate consequences. Whatever is going to happen as output is going to happen regardless of what humans label it or their opinions about it ("El Nino really sucks!").

Existing processes constrain our choices. This is why it's difficult to be an environmentally-sustainable saint. Let's say we're concerned about climate change and the destruction of the planet's biosphere. Let's say we want to lower our carbon footprint and "do the right things" to reduce the negative impact of our consumption and lifestyle.

This is where we substitute Hollywood endings for reality. We like to think that recycling matters. Sorry, it really doesn't change the inputs or processes enough to change the outputs in any consequential way. For example, the percentage of lithium batteries and electronic waste that are currently recycled is near-zero because the batteries and electronics aren't manufactured to be recycled in a cost-effective manner, and nobody in the system pays for costly recycling. So the really important recycling isn't being done.

I still recycle cardboard because that seems like a better choice than dumping it in the landfill, but in terms of total lifecycle costs and resource consumption of recycling versus landfill, I don't have any data. The system isn't set up to measure total lifecycle costs and resource consumption of goods, services and processes, and since we only manage what we measure, we're flying blind: the system is set up to measure "growth" (GDP) and profits, not total lifecycle costs and resource consumption.

Sorry, there's no Hollywood ending until we change the inputs (stop manufacturing lithium batteries) and/or the processes (require 99% recycling of all electronics, batteries, vehicles, etc.). This will require changing the entire manufacturing and resource supply chain systems from the ground up, globally. If we don't do that, the output can't possibly change in any consequential way.

The Hollywood ending is electric vehicles will "save the planet." Too bad this is Hollywood, not reality. Most of the consumption of resources and damage to the planet occur in the mining, smelting and manufacture of the vehicle, regardless of its fuel. Due to their massive consumption of minerals, electric vehicles consume far more of the planet's resources than an ICE (internal combustion engine) vehicle.

All vehicles are manufactured (mining, smelting, transport, factories, etc.) with hydrocarbons. There's no difference between vehicles except electric vehicles use even more hydrocarbons in their fabrication.

Then there's the source of the fuel. An electric vehicle manufactured by burning coal and charged with electricity generated by burning coal is in fact a coal-burning vehicle. Calling it "electric" fits the happy story, but it's not actually factual: a coal-burning vehicle is an environmental disaster, regardless of labels, our opinions or the happy-ending PR.

In the real world, the least destructive choice of vehicle is a small, light, old ICE vehicle that is well-maintained to conserve fuel and driven only rarely. Hey, look at me, I only drove my old 40-mile-per-gallon Civic 3,000 miles last year--I'm a saint!

Unfortunately, the real world isn't a Hollywood (or Bollywood) movie, and so I don't get to be a saint once we look at the world as a system rather than a movie. The fertilizers I use to grow food in my yard come from afar, and even the organic ones consume huge quantities of hydrocarbons in their processing, bagging and shipping. The "organic" fruit or vegetable shipped from afar is an environmental disaster compared to the organic fruit or vegetable from your own yard, but even those require inputs that are part of the system.

I stepped on airliners a few times in the past year, one long-haul and two short flights, and there is really nothing environmentally saintly about consuming immense resources by jetting around the world.

Electric aircraft won't "save the world," either. They're resource-hungry, small, slow, their range is modest and their batteries are no more recyclable or long-lasting than all the vehicle batteries destined for the landfill. And alternative fuels for jet aircraft are incapable of being produced at the scale necessary to replace jet fuel. Sorry, no Hollywood ending.

To really reduce one's consumption of the planet's resources, we would have to grow our own food, get around on our own feet or zero-fuel transport (motorless bicycle or skateboard or boat) and not buy / own / use large resource-consuming devices such as vehicles, aircraft, etc.

The system as currently configured makes it nearly impossible to do this. Even growing much of your own food requires delivery of fertilizers (organic or chemical, they still weight a lot). Very few places are bike-skateboard friendly. The world is set up for large, mass-produced fueled vehicles. Outside of a few cities, public transport is incapable of getting people where they need to go in any sort of time-efficient manner.

Consider the foundation of our lifestyle, the financial system. The story is "debt doesn't matter," because we can outgrow rising debt forever. Our bag of financial engineering tricks is bottomless, and there will always be another financial rabbit we can pull out of the hat.

This is of course a fantasy. Debt eventually eats the system alive. So do fixed costs, entitlements, demographics and declining productivity. The inputs and processes can't be changed in any material way because they have to remain in their current scale and configuration or the financial system collapses under its own weight.

This brings us to the incentives to keep the inputs and processes exactly as they are, with minor tweaks for PR purposes. The system is set up such that elites and self-serving interests have most of the wealth and political power, and if even the tiniest bit of their skim is diminished, they will instantly devote the entirety of their resources to reversing this outrage, for they all know how power works: if others manage to cut 1% from your skim, they'll sense weakness and come back for 10%.

The only incentive that counts in our stripmined world is maximizing profits and the private gains of the entrenched and powerful. To cloak this reality, the Powers That Be promote public-relations propaganda that depicts their pillage, looting, fraud and destruction as a Hollywood story we can all consume and love, just as we love our servitude once it's been properly packaged into a Hero / Heroine's Journey or a Love Story.

This is why nobody will do anything until it's too late. It's only when we run out of essential inputs and/or essential processes decay and collapse that we'll awaken to the fact that since the global system's inputs and processes materially changed, the outputs we need and love all went away.

By the time inputs and processes have materially changed, it's too late to reverse the process and go back in time. Once resource extraction processes break down, inputs are no longer available in the needed quantities to feed all the processes of globalized, industrialized production and transport. Since all these processes are tightly bound systems, that is, interconnected, the breakdown of any one supply chain or process quickly topples dominoes throughout the system.

In addition to confusing happy stories with systems, human hubris manifests in another way: we like to think that minor tweaks here and there that don't inconvenience us will magically change the negative outputs (resource depletion, environmental ruin, etc.). This is why we love the Hollywood stories about electric aircraft (our very own electric helicopter--yowza!), electric vehicles, recycling the carboard boxes from FedEx, UPS and Amazon, and so on: we get all the comforts and conveniences we're accustomed to, and we get to be environmentally-sustainable saints, too: it's all sustainable and ecological and warm and fuzzy.

Except it isn't. That's a fairy tale, not a system.

If you question the Hollywood ending, you're dismissed as a doom and gloomer, a discontent who grumbles about happy endings and techno-marvels.

I see this as confusing a story with a system. The story operates by its own rules: here are the obstacles and powerful villains, here are the Hero and Heroine, outmatched and under pressure, but then, against all odds, the villains lose their grip, justice is served and love triumphs.

Systems work by their own implacable rules. There are inputs and processes that generate outputs. The only way to change the outputs in a consequential fashion is to change the inputs and/or processes in a consequential fashion. Little face-saving PR tweaks are too small in scale to materially change either inputs or processes, and so the outputs won't change and indeed, can't possibly change, because that's how systems work.

So by all means, ignore all warnings and run the ship at full speed through an ice field. All too predictably, the ship collides with an iceberg and only then does anyone respond: OK, where's the Hollywood story of brave engineers saving the ship and noble passengers helping each other onto lifeboats? What do you mean, the ship will sink regardless of what's done?

Doesn't our happy-ending story map reality? Unfortunately, no. The current system is sinking and nobody will do anything other than more of what's failed until it's too late.

I like a rousing story as much as anyone else, but systems aren't stories, and confusing the two won't actually fix what's not sustainable in the current system's configuration.
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #786 on: June 14, 2023, 08:27:22 PM »
Quote
The Hollywood ending is electric vehicles will "save the planet." Too bad this is Hollywood, not reality. Most of the consumption of resources and damage to the planet occur in the mining, smelting and manufacture of the vehicle, regardless of its fuel. Due to their massive consumption of minerals, electric vehicles consume far more of the planet's resources than an ICE (internal combustion engine) vehicle.

All vehicles are manufactured (mining, smelting, transport, factories, etc.) with hydrocarbons. There's no difference between vehicles except electric vehicles use even more hydrocarbons in their fabrication.

Wroung
Life time emissions and the amount of resources needed for an ICE car over take that of an EV in less than first two years of use. 
About 95% of the resources used to create an EV are recoverable at end of use.
Good luck with recovering anything from the fossil fuels burnt by an ICE car.
The difference is EV's mine it once reuse it far into the future to ICE mine  and use  it only once.

Source: Union of Concerned Scientists
« Last Edit: June 15, 2023, 05:17:45 AM by KiwiGriff »
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #787 on: June 15, 2023, 05:10:50 AM »
The point about not changing the inputs is valid.

Although the inputs are changing, as per KiwiGriff above in terms of car manufacturing and fuel use.

It isnt enough, but it is one step of many, and each step counts.

Reduced meat consumption matters, as does turning animal grazed land into forest as does reducing the methane cows produce... and that leads to less grain being grown to feed stock animals which can either be used to grow grain for human consumption or turned into a carbon sink like a forest or return to its natural environmental type.
Reducing meat consumption alone wont do much, but changing the entire process does.

Concrete production is another place huge benefits can be gained by changing the inputs, it is incredible complex so odds are decent there are many gains to be seen there and efforts are happening in that regard.
Using less concrete would be better, but that isnt going to happen.

Encouraging people to grow a home garden would be very beneficially compared to buying it from a supermarket but so does changing the inputs of the process.

These things are happening, but that really isnt the issue... it is more about the progress being far too slow in changing the inputs. That is why we need Govts to get their shit together and why people need to start stressing Govts out a lot more. Govt motivation to speed things up isnt there, and it isnt there because they are more concerned about what fossil fuel companies want compared to what the people want.

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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #788 on: June 15, 2023, 09:15:00 AM »
Obviously, there is no Hollywood ending, or even an acceptable ending, to the bind humanity has stuck itself into. Rising population and rising affluence and rising consumption, with a finite Earth, this is an overshoot of the Carrying Capacity and will not end well at all.
However, given the situation, solutions that improve resource consumption even in a marginal or partial way are far better than doing nothing. Demanding a full perfect solution (e.g. stop manufacturing lithium batteries or require 99% recycling of all electronics, batteries, vehicles) before anyone is allowed to do anything, guarantees the worst possible outcome.

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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #789 on: June 15, 2023, 09:53:22 AM »
Hi Rodius   thanks  ...... just a couple of points  ..... re methane from ruminants  ..... research in NZ is showing significant variation in methane emissions and some sheep breeders are successfully breeding low methane emitting rams  .... and subsequently their offspring . The same looks to apply to dairy Bulls   which should result in significant reductions in dairy cows emissions .

re concrete  ....again work in NZ on using wood to build high rise ..... not 50 stories but maybe 6.....is showing promise 

Obviously not a silver bullet but steps in the right direction

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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #790 on: July 05, 2023, 08:05:35 PM »
Quote
Robert Llewellyn @bobbyllew
For all the lovely folks who go on and on about mining and electric cars when they don't have the slightest grasp of what is really happening.
7/4/23 https://twitter.com/bobbyllew/status/1676307656510697473

The simple, amazing infographic is too long to post here, but it’s definitely worth clicking the article-link to check it out:
 
➡️ https://www.distilled.earth/p/a-fossil-fuel-economy-requires-535x

 
Article excerpt:
A Fossil Fuel Economy Requires 535x More Mining Than a Clean Energy Economy
Transitioning to clean energy would reduce the volume and harm of mining dramatically
Quote
Every year, about 15 billion tons of fossil fuels are mined and extracted. That’s about 535 times more mining than a clean energy economy would require in 2040.
 
Part of the reason for this massive difference in mining requirements is the fact that fossil fuel infrastructure is much less energy efficient than clean energy technology. Gas-powered cars are three times less efficient than electric vehicles. Gas furnaces are three to four times less efficient than heat pumps. Coal, oil, and gas all need to be transported long distances from mine or well to the source of combustion.
 
A clean energy economy just requires much less energy than a fossil fuel economy.
 
But there’s another important reason for this difference. Fossil fuel infrastructure requires constant fuel input. Building a coal or gas power plant, like building a wind or solar project, requires a lot of materials and energy input upfront. But for a fossil fuel power plant, construction is just the beginning. In order to generate power, you need to burn coal or gas every day for decades. Wind and solar projects, by comparison, don’t require any ongoing fuel input. …
https://www.distilled.earth/p/a-fossil-fuel-economy-requires-535x
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #792 on: July 08, 2023, 07:54:44 PM »
Norway has discovered a phosphate deposit large enough to supply the world for 100 years 
 
Massive mineral deposit discovery could meet global battery and solar panel demand ‘for next 100 years’
Norge Mining hopes to open first mine in Norway within next five years
July 3, 2023
Quote
A huge phosphate rock deposit discovered in Norway contains enough minerals to meet the global demand for batteries and solar panels for the next 100 years, according to the mining company that controls it.

Norge Mining said up to 70 billion tonnes of the non-renewable resource may have been uncovered in south-western Norway, alongside deposits of other strategic minerals like titanium and vanadium.

Phosphate rock contains high concentrates of phosphorus, which is a key component for building green technologies but currently faces significant supply issues. …
https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/battery-solar-panels-norway-phosphate-b2368444.html
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #793 on: July 08, 2023, 09:38:51 PM »
They are also opening new oil and gas fields for Europe. This does make them rich enough so everyone can buy a Tesla so there is that...
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #794 on: July 08, 2023, 11:35:33 PM »
One day, everyone is going to be rich in a world of plenty and no work, as long as we don't let the green commie Malthusians f**k it up. No need for systemic changes. The system will solve the problems caused by the system. This was always how System intended it to be.
The next great division of the world will be between people who wish to live as creatures
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #795 on: July 09, 2023, 01:14:00 AM »
One day, everyone is going to be rich in a world of plenty and no work, as long as we don't let the green commie Malthusians f**k it up. No need for systemic changes. The system will solve the problems caused by the system. This was always how System intended it to be.

Farzad Mesbahi:
Is money going to be worthless soon?
Here's @jamesdouma and @MatchasmMatt talking about the possibility of a future with near endless, nearly free energy, and Tesla's role in it:
➡️ pic.twitter.com/f9Lv5981YM  30 sec. clip.
“… ironic if my investing hobby doesn’t matter because money doesn’t matter anymore.”
 “If everything costs nothing, then there’s no upside to being a millionaire.”
 “Capitalism inadvertently causes communism.”
 
Quote
😂 Capitalism may indeed result in communism!
It is the most ironic outcome.
 
< It will happen. Just a matter of when we enter this era of superabundance, not if.
 
> It amazes me how many people assume the next 50 years will more or less look like the last 50 years.
7/3/23,  https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1675964034191958016

 
Full conversation:
Tesla's Energy Revolution w/ James Douma & Matt Smith
 
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #796 on: July 09, 2023, 08:18:03 AM »
Unlimited "cheap" energy may / will simply give humanity the power to trash the planet even faster.
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #797 on: July 09, 2023, 08:45:03 AM »
Can anyone feed me the punchline I would rather not spend 2 hours watching a video only to find out it can be explained in two lines without the hype.

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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #798 on: July 10, 2023, 12:26:48 PM »
The UK future energy scenario is out.

Lots to read
https://www.nationalgrideso.com/future-energy/future-energy-scenarios

For me this is the main take away of how we expect the transition to go.
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Re: Renewable Energy Transition and Consumption
« Reply #799 on: July 10, 2023, 07:13:10 PM »
My notes on the above video

Farzad Mesbahi hosts:
Tesla's Energy Revolution w/ James Douma & Matt Smith - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdW18eo1-Xs&feature=youtu.be
2 hours. July 5

Mostly US focussed. The discussion is not “all Tesla all the time,” but they do point out that Tesla’s Master Plan 3 presentation numbers are VERY conservative on cost (which could be half of what Tesla states), and do not take into account Learning Curves / Wrights Law, which quite accurately predicts how costs decline as one figures out how to manufacture something more efficiently.  The Model T and the Model 3 show this well.  Best case scenario for the clean energy transition is about half the cost of the worst case scenario, but both are way cheaper than fossil fuels.  Thinking that going green is more expensive is the wrong perspective.  Economics, not regulation, will drive the change.

Everyone makes predictions that new energy products will cost about the same as they do today, but in truth, Wright’s law works, and costs decrease.  Solar cost decreasing factor is 28%, wind 15%, coal 2%.  Nuclear (because of increasing safety requirements) is actually negative, -2 to -4%.

Electricity Generation costs have become a much smaller part of the grid, compared to Transmission.  Two-thirds of your electric bill is for transmission.  It’s not hard to add solar and batteries to your home that will cover 95% of your usage during the year.  But that last 5%, or 1%, is more expensive, and what keeps people on the grid.

The cheapest solution to renewables’ intermittency is to overbuild.  We’ll overbuild solar the most, since it’s cheaper than batteries.  Which means most of the time, we’ll have excess energy.  What to do with it?  People could be paid to use it — charge their home batteries.  Or it could simply be “free”/super low cost — used by energy-intensive desalination plants, smelters, manufacturing plants, hydrogen storage.

Tesla held off raising prices on its Megapack until recently, to help utilities make a case for transition.  But now they are sold out for two years, and every month when new supplies appear on their website, they are sold out in a day. 
It could make sense to add one or two Megapacks at electric substations, rather than huge storage farms, to be able to send power ahead of time directly to localities that will need it the most.  Seasonal recharging of Hydrogen storage: in salt caves, for six months, for use during the six months of increased power needs.

That “free” or cheap energy is what gets us to the new economy.

“It’s going to happen. The economics are way too strong for it not to happen.  There will be insane amounts of energy at super low cost, allowing us to rewrite the future of humanity in so many different ways.”
Everything we do requires energy, so having more, clean energy will enable us to improve as a species.
Cheap energy decreases the training cost of AI.
Desalination can be almost free, so that makes some amount of water free. The transportation of that water to where it is needed can be almost free using electric trucks.
Powering the Optimus Bot….

Approximate timestamps:
4:30 - Utilities and their different financials:  GAAP, Tax, and FERC.
26 min - Tesla’s Master Plan 3 slide. (Attached below ⬇️) Physics versus Regulatory bodies.
32 min - Learning Curves and Wright’s Law
48 min - Tesla’s estimates are very conservative.  Costs will actually be about half that.
54 min - Before solar, the hurdle was always: how do we spin a rotor more efficiently.  Now, the solution is to overbuild solar.
1hr - Tesla Master Plan 3 doesn’t assume batteries get cheaper or better. It does assume we will build more battery factories.  An 8X reduction in cost completely changes what you can do.  2/3 of your electric bill is transportation and transmission cost.
1:18 - Renewables are huge in the panhandle of Texas, but the load is needed on the Gulf Coast.  Local renewables versus NIMBY.  VPPs.
1:41 - The Inflation Reduction Act incentivizes the entire supply chain, allowing for new flexibility. Local megapacks.
1:54 - Tesla Master Plan 3.  “It’s going to happen.”  Capitalism leading to communism.

⬇️ Click to enhance.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2023, 07:21:40 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.