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KiwiGriff

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2020, 04:21:43 AM »
So Tom would vote for satan himself as long as he is pro life ?
Absurd but logical result of his position.
I know this is off topic...but it is part of why alt right has such power in the us
FWIW nz is debatable one of the most free society's on this earth  m
We are democratic socialist with a free market high leval of freedom for all along with universal health care no fault accident insurance and comprehensive socal welfare
From what I know of jesus and his teaching he would have been closer to us than to what the USA has.
 I am atheist but I have always thought to not believe in something you must have knowledge of what it Is you don't believe in
So spent a long time trying to understand who jesus was and what he had to say
Most of which I agree with I just do not add the Devine to who he was
As many of the writers of the USA constitution also thought

This is part of the discussion around the alt right and us political discourses
The mod on here is because who is from what I understand a Christian I could respect...
Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
Notebooks of Lazarus Long.
Robert Heinlein.

etienne

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #51 on: October 12, 2020, 07:24:21 AM »
Tom, aren't the words of your own Pope a bit more weighty that some church bulletin?

Quote
Pope Francis has released a new papal document in which he criticizes everything from the toxicity of social media to Catholics’ single-minded focus on abortion...

"Our defence of the innocent unborn, for example, needs to be clear, firm and passionate, for at stake is the dignity of a human life, which is always sacred and demands love for each person, regardless of his or her stage of development.

Equally sacred, however, are the lives of the poor, those already born, the destitute, the abandoned and the underprivileged, the vulnerable infirm and elderly exposed to covert euthanasia, the victims of human trafficking, new forms of slavery, and every form of rejection."

I'm wondering how such clear papal proclamations are being taken in by you and the folks of similar mind in your circle. Do you just blow off the Pope when he isn't saying something you want to hear?

https://www.vox.com/2018/4/11/17220108/pope-francis-catholics-conservative-abortion-gaudete-exsultate-twitter-church-apostolic-exhortation
Abortion is an easy fight because it doesn't require any involvement, just some protests in front of hospitals. Helping poor people or refugees is much more difficult and requires much more time and money, and if you start thinking why they are poor, you could become a dangerous leftist. 

It is also quite easy to get horrible pictures, and everybody finds babies cute, much cuter than a refugee coming over the border.
 

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #52 on: October 12, 2020, 11:21:10 AM »
Who am I to vote for, then? If there were a Third Party candidate who reflected Catholic beliefs, I would vote for him/her even if he/she had no chance to win. But I am unaware of such a candidate.
This is why I am an Independent, but I can’t take half of the Republican candidates and half of the Democratic candidates and see them together like Frankenstein’s monster. And I believe I have an obligation to vote.
Abortion causes more harm to Humanity than any other issue today, killing millions of babies. I have to fight it.
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

be cause

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #53 on: October 12, 2020, 12:24:52 PM »
Hullo Moderators

- please get this thread off the unread posts list.

if I could , I would ...
b .c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 + 1 =  ' if only we could have seen it coming ' ...

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #54 on: October 12, 2020, 01:40:31 PM »
This is an example of why I did not isolate abortion in a specific thread. I emphatically rejected right wing violence by condemning it in the most extreme issue there is. If saving millions of babies does not justify violence then nothing does. This is why abortion was referred to by me in this thread.
Or take the election thread. Suppose someone asks in that thread, "Why would you vote for Trump?", a reasonable query for such a thread. I plan to vote for Trump, so I am a reasonable person to answer it. My reason is that he is more anti-abortion than Biden.
So I didn't see how it is possible to quarantine the issue to one thread. If you disagree with this let me know and I will consider a dedicated thread.
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

wili

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #55 on: October 12, 2020, 01:54:07 PM »
even though abortions have increased under trump, and your own pope has told you not to be a one-issue voter?
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #56 on: October 12, 2020, 02:00:00 PM »
Police kill dozens of innocent a year (let’s say). Abortion kills thousands of babies a week.
False equivalence?
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

wili

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #57 on: October 12, 2020, 02:08:54 PM »
Yup
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

kassy

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2020, 02:14:09 PM »
Requests for a certain thread to be removed from the new posts display should be put in Forum Decorum since this is not a thing mods can do.

Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

The Walrus

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #59 on: October 12, 2020, 02:22:10 PM »
Actually I expect most of the violence is neither Left or Right...not political at all.
I's drug lords fighting each other, muggings, assaults...mostly done for reasons not having anything to do with politics.
And the violence, while it has been rising the last couple years, is nothing like it was in the ACW, or in Europe in the World Wars. The scary thing is worrying about it getting that bad again.
Maybe you're right, but political violence is something specific because it targets people who are totally innocent, and is done in order to gain power. It destroys democracy, and once the violent one is installed, it is quite difficult to get him out.

The violence of criminal organizations is something that a democratic society should be able to control, even if it is not always easy.

I'm living in Europe, so I can't testify about what's happening in the US, but in the news over here, we only see political violence  coming from the alt-right, excepted sometimes people reacting to planned provocations.

In the U.S., we have both.  It varies as to which side appears to exist in greater numbers.  Prior to recent activities , I would agree with those claiming the violence started mostly from the right.  Recently, it appears the left has taken over that stop.  Violence in Portland and Denver over the weekend  supports that.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #60 on: October 12, 2020, 03:04:06 PM »
Very well I will drop abortion and state:
RIGHT WING VIOLENCE IS ABOMINABLE
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

Tor Bejnar

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #61 on: October 12, 2020, 05:46:10 PM »
fact check:
Quote
Police kill dozens of innocent a year (let’s say). Abortion kills thousands of babies a week.
False equivalence?
People killed by security forces per year, worldwide:  28,000
Abortions per year, worldwide:  73 million  [1.4 million/week]

Both numbers were 'off' by a factor of ~103, but in the same direction.

I'll leave the other question up to the individual and their doctor and spiritual advisor.  :P

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The Walrus

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #62 on: October 12, 2020, 06:04:22 PM »
fact check:
Quote
Police kill dozens of innocent a year (let’s say). Abortion kills thousands of babies a week.
False equivalence?
People killed by security forces per year, worldwide:  28,000
Abortions per year, worldwide:  73 million  [1.4 million/week]

Both numbers were 'off' by a factor of ~103, but in the same direction.

I'll leave the other question up to the individual and their doctor and spiritual advisor.  :P

I suspect his numbers were U.S. only. 

wili

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« Last Edit: October 23, 2020, 04:49:44 AM by wili »
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

wili

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #64 on: October 23, 2020, 04:41:16 AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/22/white-supremacists-rightwing-domestic-terror-2020


White supremacists behind majority of US domestic terror attacks in 2020


Data stands in stark contrast to claims by Donald Trump, who has argued that leftwing violence is a major threat


Quote
White supremacists and other rightwing extremists have been responsible for 67% of domestic terror attacks and plots so far this year, with at least half of that violence targeting protesters, according to a new analysis from a centrist thinktank.

The report found only a single deadly “far-left” attack in 2020, the shooting of Aaron Danielson, a rightwing activist, by a self-described “anti-fascist” during a protest in Portland this August. Experts on extremism said this was the first killing linked to an anti-fascist in the United States in 25 years.

Violent rightwing actors were responsible for 41 politically motivated attacks and plots this year, while “far-left” actors were responsible for 12, according to analysts at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), who have assembled a database of domestic terror attacks going back to 1994...

The percentage of rightwing domestic terrorism attacks would have been higher if CSIS had categorized “boogaloo” anti-government extremists as rightwing, as many experts do. Instead, they classified the emerging violent movement as “other”...

...white supremacists and similar actors pose the greatest domestic terror threat to the United States today, a finding that is consistent across multiple databases maintained by researchers who track extremist violence, and that was recently confirmed by a Department of Homeland Security threat assessment, which said that white supremacists “remain the most persistent and lethal threat in the homeland”.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

The Walrus

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #65 on: October 23, 2020, 04:21:49 PM »
Of course much depends on who is doing the counting and what is considered terrorism.  The following lists 12 terrorist events in the U.S., killing 8 and injuring 187.  Of those 12, just two were perpetrated by right wingers; both attacks on police in California.  All the rest were listed as criminal terrorist activities, which resulted in 6 deaths and 183 injuries.  I suspect that Trump is counting all those as leftwing terrorism, as all but one occurred during recent rioting.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/wrjp255a.html

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #66 on: October 25, 2020, 12:48:18 AM »
Just saw a TV show in which a character asks “Has any great social evil ever been ended without violence?”
I am glad I was not the character that question was posed to.
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

wili

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #67 on: October 25, 2020, 05:11:41 PM »
How about all of the revolutions of 1989 (except the Romanian)?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1989
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

etienne

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #68 on: October 25, 2020, 08:15:37 PM »
Just saw a TV show in which a character asks “Has any great social evil ever been ended without violence?”
I am glad I was not the character that question was posed to.
Of course not, but there are many cases where violence was not the thing that brought the change. Apartheid is also an example.
Often when violence brings the change, you go from one evil into another, here there are also many examples, like Cuba, Iran...

Ktb

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #69 on: Today at 02:12:00 AM »
I will not condemn the counterviolence perpetrated by America's left in this day and age.

Quote
Nobody in the world, nobody in history, has ever gotten their freedom by appealing to the moral sense of the people who were oppressing them.

- Assata Shakur

Non-violent protesters who are beaten by the State authority (in this case heavily militarized police) gain sympathy from the public at large. The American public supported the peaceful protests of the civil rights era because they witnessed savagery perpetrated by the State. The news media of the right failed to maintain control of the narrative that violence was occurring and have spent the better part of 53 years preparing for the inevitable reignition in this conflict for rights. And now the media has an unprecedented ability to deny that peaceful protest is taking place, or spin the peaceful protests as riots. Pacifism does not work when the public does not see it.

When the police claim there was a riot, the news media reports on that information to appear non-biased and then nobody of a comparable size or weight to the authority is brought on to say "No. Obviously this was not a riot." The protesters may have been peaceful does not align the general public against the authority as well as the protesters were peaceful.
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wili

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Re: The Alt Right
« Reply #70 on: Today at 02:44:36 AM »
This happened just a few blocks down from my house, and I knew from first hand and from many accounts from friends, neighbors and others, that much of the arson (and attempted arson) in my neighborhood was planned and carried out by rightwing hoodlums.

As time has gone on, this observation has been more and more, finally, confirmed in the major press, though probably too late to change the perceptions of many, especially on the right, that this was a case of people in my neighborhood basically deciding to burn our own neighborhood down.


‘Boogaloo Boi’ charged in fire of Minneapolis police precinct during George Floyd protest


Ivan Harrison Hunter, a Texas rightwing extremist, bragged about helping to set the fire then was seen shooting 13 rounds at the building


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/23/texas-boogaloo-boi-minneapolis-police-building-george-floyd

Quote
A rightwing extremist boasted of driving from Texas to Minneapolis to help set fire to a police precinct during the George Floyd protests, federal prosecutors said.

US attorney Erica MacDonald said on Friday that she had charged Ivan Harrison Hunter, a 26-year-old Texas resident, with traveling across state lines to participate in a riot. The charges are the latest example of far-right extremists attempting to use violence to escalate national protests against police brutality into an uprising against the government, and even full civil war.

The case also reveals the extent of the coordination between violent members of the nascent far-right “Boogaloo Bois” movement operating in different cities across the country....

Hunter is the third alleged “Boogaloo Boi” to be charged in connection with protests in Minneapolis.

Across the country, the “Boogaloo” movement has been linked to more than two dozen arrests and at least five deaths this year, including the alleged plot to kidnap the Michigan governor, Gretchen Whitmer.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."