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Author Topic: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt  (Read 763 times)

wili

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R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« on: December 30, 2020, 04:48:54 PM »
Expect to see a flood of newfound 'concern' about US debt coming from Republican quarters now that a new Democratic administration is about to take charge, this after expressing zero concern about debt as Trump and the Repubs exploded the debt with massive tax breaks for corporations and fore the very richest.

Republican posters here may now prove me right by posting all their  newfound 'concerns' about debt :)
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

kassy

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2020, 05:17:28 PM »
Just a minor nitpick but shouldn´t this be in politics?
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

wili

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2020, 06:13:07 PM »
I'm fine with that. When tom posted a debt related thing on the covid thread, I thought you had told him to put it in the 'the rest' thread.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Alexander555

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2020, 07:59:56 PM »
It's you that should be worried wili. 7 trillion is on the FED's balance sheet . That means more than 20 trillion is in the hands of savers. And because of that low interst rate they are going to find out that they are losing money every year. So normaly they will ask their money back. And the FED will have to print all that money. And  not just the FED, many countries will have to do the same. Even if inflation picks up only a little, people will start to lose more money. And more money will have to be printed. I don't know for the US. But over here, many of these products they sell to save for your pension. You can't get out, they changed the rules a couple years ago. Now you can only get it at the age of 65. So they can only look how their savings go up in smoke. But all the rest, it would not be  normal to hold on to these investment products that only cost you money. Here the yield is already  negative. So whene they say the government is making money to make more debt, that means the saver has to pay for his money.

Alexander555

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2020, 08:22:51 PM »
And as long that printed money don't creates inflation, it creates cheap consumption. And  normaly it should be durable consumption.

vox_mundi

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2020, 09:23:14 PM »
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

wili

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2020, 11:12:35 PM »
Good one, vox

And thanks for making my point for me, Al! :)
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2020, 01:42:02 AM »
I have this feeling that what can't go on won't go on. But when will the US hit the wall? How can we have $25,000,000,000,000.00 plus debt and 100,000,000,000,000.00 plus unfunded liabilities and still go on? Will we hit a quadrillion? A quintillion? A decillion? A centillion? Will the Fall be in 2021 or 2525?
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

KiwiGriff

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2020, 08:32:18 AM »
Things Republicans Are Going to Pretend to Care About Again
MrsBettyBowers
Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
Notebooks of Lazarus Long.
Robert Heinlein.

Alexander555

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2020, 08:54:44 AM »
In some way it's a remarkable subject, the debt. The Republicans were probably silent because Trump is a Republican. But i also did'nt hear much about it from the Democrats. Normaly they use everything they can find against each other. But the grants and free holidays are more importand.

wili

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2020, 09:59:28 PM »
" Republicans were probably silent because Trump is a Republican"

As we say: "No sh!t, Sherlock" :)

Hence the title of the freakin' thread. and the many excellent comments and cartoons ridiculing their baldfaced insincerity about caring about this, or really about anything but their own raw power
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

NevB

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2021, 03:10:08 PM »
" Republicans were probably silent because Trump is a Republican"

As we say: "No sh!t, Sherlock" :)

Hence the title of the freakin' thread. and the many excellent comments and cartoons ridiculing their baldfaced insincerity about caring about this, or really about anything but their own raw power

FWIW The exact same thing has happened here in Australia, when the Labor (Progressive) party were in power our mostly monolithic media relentlessly fueled fear over "debt and deficit" (BTW our debt to GDP was around an extarodinary 10 to 20%). This was a big contributing factor in the election of the conservative government we now have.

After the ironically named Liberal party (Far right conservatives) was elected our deficit doubled even before Covid, with not a word from >90% of our biased media.

Covid has blown the promised but never to be delivered surplus away for the foreseeable future. The narrative is that we won't have any problem at all with our now 41% debt to GDP ratio (that very few people car to know about) unless another progressive government is elected (where these same people will be lead like sheep to be outraged at the size of Labor's debt). Which is now very unlikely to ever happen as our media is totally screwed and most of the population are too wilfully ignorant to know or care.

Yep, this belongs in Politics, but also belongs in "This is the pitiful F.kn truth of humanities future thread" that discusses why we are doomed to fail to do anything meaningful to address climate change or even a "How a 16 y.o called Greta can see clearly what the problem is while so many others are clueless" thread.


SteveMDFP

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2021, 03:36:36 PM »
I have this feeling that what can't go on won't go on. But when will the US hit the wall? How can we have $25,000,000,000,000.00 plus debt and 100,000,000,000,000.00 plus unfunded liabilities and still go on? Will we hit a quadrillion? A quintillion? A decillion? A centillion? Will the Fall be in 2021 or 2525?

A consideration of Modern Monetary Theory may illuminate such questions.

1.)  One person's debt is always another person's asset.  That 25 trillion debt by the government matches 25 trillion in assets (i.e. wealth) held by individuals.  We consider the government debt to be "bad" but the wealth held by people to be "good."  So is the situation a net bad thing or a net good thing?  It depends on the details.

2.) As a corollary to #1, when the government (public sector) runs a deficit, the private sector runs a surplus.  That's math.  One is good, the other bad, but they're inextricably tied to each other.

3.) The "unfunded liability" assertions about Social Security is mathematical sophistry and scaremongering.  It's not at all unfunded, as long as you consider it a safe assumption that we will continue to have a functioning economy where social security taxes will continue to be collected.  The projected costs are just as much assumptions as the projected revenue.  It's entirely possible, we've learned, for a substantial fraction of retirees to meet an early demise.

The sophistry goes beyond this.  A century ago, a working person might support a household with numerous non-working people.  I.e., a spouse, several children, a grandparent or two.  The ratio of working people to people being supported was far smaller in the past.  It's only the current structure of the Social Security system that needs to be tweaked.  The "crisis" of the "trust fund" can be resolved in an instant, by considering payments to be obligations of the general Treasury fund, and revenue to be deposits to the general fund.  Others would prefer a different tweak.  It is overall, a non-issue.

Overall, consider that Japan's debt to GDP ratio is far higher than the US.  Yet, it's still regarded as a solid economy, with it's currency also considered by investors to be a high-quality asset.

Alexander555

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2021, 08:14:11 PM »
I have this feeling that what can't go on won't go on. But when will the US hit the wall? How can we have $25,000,000,000,000.00 plus debt and 100,000,000,000,000.00 plus unfunded liabilities and still go on? Will we hit a quadrillion? A quintillion? A decillion? A centillion? Will the Fall be in 2021 or 2525?

A consideration of Modern Monetary Theory may illuminate such questions.

1.)  One person's debt is always another person's asset.  That 25 trillion debt by the government matches 25 trillion in assets (i.e. wealth) held by individuals.  We consider the government debt to be "bad" but the wealth held by people to be "good."  So is the situation a net bad thing or a net good thing?  It depends on the details.

2.) As a corollary to #1, when the government (public sector) runs a deficit, the private sector runs a surplus.  That's math.  One is good, the other bad, but they're inextricably tied to each other.

3.) The "unfunded liability" assertions about Social Security is mathematical sophistry and scaremongering.  It's not at all unfunded, as long as you consider it a safe assumption that we will continue to have a functioning economy where social security taxes will continue to be collected.  The projected costs are just as much assumptions as the projected revenue.  It's entirely possible, we've learned, for a substantial fraction of retirees to meet an early demise.

The sophistry goes beyond this.  A century ago, a working person might support a household with numerous non-working people.  I.e., a spouse, several children, a grandparent or two.  The ratio of working people to people being supported was far smaller in the past.  It's only the current structure of the Social Security system that needs to be tweaked.  The "crisis" of the "trust fund" can be resolved in an instant, by considering payments to be obligations of the general Treasury fund, and revenue to be deposits to the general fund.  Others would prefer a different tweak.  It is overall, a non-issue.

Overall, consider that Japan's debt to GDP ratio is far higher than the US.  Yet, it's still regarded as a solid economy, with it's currency also considered by investors to be a high-quality asset.

Japan was the first country to start the money printing. At that point they could just buy bonds in the rest of the world with a higher yield. So they could still earn good money in a easy way. China was close by. First the cheap labour. Than the subsidised transport, energy, resources..... And now slaves. And that manipulated economy pooled country after country into money printing. Because most countries can not pay for their social security without printing money. And that counts for the entire planet. Also for the countries that don't have an international currency. Lile Brazil, Turkey....They offer an higher interest rate, but their  currencies go down as a rock. Because they like cheap debt in other currencies. So now they entire planet will start to print more and more money.

Alexander555

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Re: R's sudden, 100% insincere 'concern' about US debt
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2021, 09:20:34 PM »
And who's responsable for that, the anti-Trump gang.