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Author Topic: Origins of SARS-CoV-2  (Read 5859 times)

Gerntocratis#1

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2021, 03:30:12 AM »
Sure, it is unlikely that an asteroid landed on the house and burnt it down, sure it is more likely to be matches, but you cant 100% rule the asteroid theory out.
Yes, extremely unlikely. Actually meteorites are cold when land. A big one can burn it down but consequences are really different from match.

Asteroid hazard is known risk. It's not a big task to calculate probability for certain building or check if impact event happened. But how to estimate plausibility of lab-origin scenario? Should we also consider alien's experiment as possible scenario?

Yes aliens brought covid to us, those bastards. They are softening up our defenses for the invasion.

Rodius

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2021, 04:50:28 AM »
Is Jimmy Dore going to the accepted level of evidence here?

Watch the video and see Dr Fauci lies, by yourself, forget Jimmy Dore.

I did, unfortunately, watch it.
What I saw was some man trying to look clever and missing a lot of points.

I was going to do a break down of it but decided that I cant be bothered.

That video is just another example of how easy it is to produce total rubbish that requires an awful lot of explaining to refute each and every thing being said. It is a common tactic that politicians do to distract from that main point..... just ask the person telling the truth 1001 questions that need a heap of explaining to refute until they give up.

Bullshit making is easy.... always has been, always will be.

Jimmy Dore is a comedian for fucks sake. Are you seriously going take his take on anything seriously?

kassy

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2021, 10:06:34 AM »
A general note: just stating some poster is clueless is not an argument. Instead explain why some example is not GoF or where their argument goes wrong since that is more interesting for third party readers.

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SimonF92

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2021, 11:32:39 AM »
I had to laugh when i woke up and read this

https://www.ft.com/content/7e9ce61d-7b72-456b-a2e4-48b167bfd394

It is literally beyond a joke at this point however.

"
Beijing has barred the entry of a 10-member World Health Organization team investigating the origins of the coronavirus pandemic after their visas were not approved.
"



PS in genetics a gain-of-function is any novel variant which causes any novel molecular mechanism. A gain-of-fuction is just as likely to cause a decrease in virulence as it is to cause an increase. However, inherently due to biological forcing, mutations in viruses will always select for events which increase virulence.
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2021, 03:51:29 PM »

That video is just another example of how easy it is to produce total rubbish that requires an awful lot of explaining to refute each and every thing being said. It is a common tactic that politicians do to distract from that main point..... just ask the person telling the truth 1001 questions that need a heap of explaining to refute until they give up.

Indeed.  A term for this, which I learned on this forum, is a "gish gallop."  A rapid sequence of lies, mininformation, and out-of-context facts which individually take a prohibitive amount of time to rebut.  It's a common tactic by professional climate deniers.  it can also be used by conspiracy theorists and professional pundits. 

harpy

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2021, 04:09:28 PM »
Proceedings of the National Academy of Science


Opinion: To stop the next pandemic, we need to unravel the origins of COVID-19


https://www.pnas.org/content/117/47/29246.full

Quote
Even though strong opinions abound, none of these scenarios can be confidently ruled in or ruled out with currently available facts. Just because there are no public reports of more immediate, proximal ancestors in natural hosts, doesn’t mean that these ancestors don’t exist in natural hosts or that COVID-19 didn’t began as a spillover event. Nor does it mean that they have not been recovered and studied, or deliberately recombined in a laboratory.

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2021, 08:25:06 PM »
I had to laugh when i woke up and read this

https://www.ft.com/content/7e9ce61d-7b72-456b-a2e4-48b167bfd394

It is literally beyond a joke at this point however.

"
Beijing has barred the entry of a 10-member World Health Organization team investigating the origins of the coronavirus pandemic after their visas were not approved.
"



PS in genetics a gain-of-function is any novel variant which causes any novel molecular mechanism. A gain-of-fuction is just as likely to cause a decrease in virulence as it is to cause an increase. However, inherently due to biological forcing, mutations in viruses will always select for events which increase virulence.

Aaaaand, as the FT brings this news, you avoid the stoning from the just people.

Just a comment aside about Dore: I buy a single truth of an independent comedian rather than a thousand lies from the very compromised Fox/MSNBC/CNN/CNBC...

What Dore did in that video is to expose how easily Dr Fauxi lies, elaborates half-truths... This comedian doesn’t even have to elaborate a complicated argument: he just plays videos of Fauci blatantly lying!. But disingenuous folks won’t even recognize that.

Hey, there is quite a number of conservative, conformist, pro-status quo elements in this Forum as far as I have been able to see, which is surprising being a climate change concerned site. Times are a-changing...

greylib

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2021, 03:35:03 AM »
Nobody knows. The chances are that nobody will ever know. But just in case, here are a few possibilities:

a) A lab error, covered up by the authorities.

b) A deliberate release:
     b1) By an enemy of China, for propaganda reasons.
     b2) By China, in the knowledge that they can lock down their population much better than the democracies can.
     b3) By a Pharma company, knowing that there are big bucks in developing a vaccine. (At first, the experts said it would take 2-5 years; how did they manage it in months unless they had a head start?)
     b4) By Save-the-Planet extremists, trying to perfect a way of killing off a large percentage of the race before we complete the ongoing planetary rape and take ourselves down with the rest of the ecosystem. (Unsuccessful this time - we're still breeding faster than we're dying.)

c) A natural mutation.

I'm going with C. With the proviso that the different B-options will have given some bright but insane people ideas for the future.
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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2021, 01:16:54 PM »
Nobody knows. The chances are that nobody will ever know. But just in case, here are a few possibilities:

a) A lab error, covered up by the authorities.

b) A deliberate release:
     b1) By an enemy of China, for propaganda reasons.
     b2) By China, in the knowledge that they can lock down their population much better than the democracies can.
     b3) By a Pharma company, knowing that there are big bucks in developing a vaccine. (At first, the experts said it would take 2-5 years; how did they manage it in months unless they had a head start?)
     b4) By Save-the-Planet extremists, trying to perfect a way of killing off a large percentage of the race before we complete the ongoing planetary rape and take ourselves down with the rest of the ecosystem. (Unsuccessful this time - we're still breeding faster than we're dying.)

c) A natural mutation.

I'm going with C. With the proviso that the different B-options will have given some bright but insane people ideas for the future.

Excellent overview. I posted a similar thing in the Lessons from COVID-19 thread:

Quote
1. the origin of the virus, two possibilities:
a) the bat soup story - caused by the widespread destruction of ecosystems (civilisation getting closer and closer to wild animals with hereto unknown diseases, increased demand for exotic foods/bushmeat, etc), which in turn is caused by the need for ever-increasing profits, which is fueled by the need for concentrated wealth to grow and further concentrate endlessly.
b) virus escaped by accident from lab - research into diseases with pandemic potential is also fueled by the profit motive, which is fueled by the need for concentrated wealth to grow and further concentrate endlessly.
c) virus engineered and let loose - like b), but worse.

My point was that whatever the exact origin of the virus, its cause is the same for every scenario: the growth and further concentration of concentrated wealth.
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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2021, 08:50:25 PM »
Nobody knows. The chances are that nobody will ever know. But just in case, here are a few possibilities:

a) A lab error, covered up by the authorities.

b) A deliberate release:
     b1) By an enemy of China, for propaganda reasons.
     b2) By China, in the knowledge that they can lock down their population much better than the democracies can.
     b3) By a Pharma company, knowing that there are big bucks in developing a vaccine. (At first, the experts said it would take 2-5 years; how did they manage it in months unless they had a head start?)
     b4) By Save-the-Planet extremists, trying to perfect a way of killing off a large percentage of the race before we complete the ongoing planetary rape and take ourselves down with the rest of the ecosystem. (Unsuccessful this time - we're still breeding faster than we're dying.)

c) A natural mutation.

I'm going with C. With the proviso that the different B-options will have given some bright but insane people ideas for the future.

Excellent overview. I posted a similar thing in the Lessons from COVID-19 thread:

Quote
1. the origin of the virus, two possibilities:
a) the bat soup story - caused by the widespread destruction of ecosystems (civilisation getting closer and closer to wild animals with hereto unknown diseases, increased demand for exotic foods/bushmeat, etc), which in turn is caused by the need for ever-increasing profits, which is fueled by the need for concentrated wealth to grow and further concentrate endlessly.
b) virus escaped by accident from lab - research into diseases with pandemic potential is also fueled by the profit motive, which is fueled by the need for concentrated wealth to grow and further concentrate endlessly.
c) virus engineered and let loose - like b), but worse.

My point was that whatever the exact origin of the virus, its cause is the same for every scenario: the growth and further concentration of concentrated wealth.

I agree, but one scenario demands several years of natural virus evolution (accelerated by overpopulation by a factor 10? Sure, maybe) while the other uses existing techniques that causes virus alterations in, say, over a month, of what in nature would have taken 100 years.

There is an intrinsic perversion in these GoF experiments. Given the succulent grants, the expected investment returns must be huge for whatever the applications are. But one doesn’t have to be molecular biologist to understand the backfiring risks, concerns that in fact have now been aired.

It’s good to believe in Science, Technology, Medicine. It is not to believe that humankind can use Science and Technology to manipulate nature at their will, because nature will find a way to make humans pay the harm by a x1000. Any person conscious on the dangers unleashed by AGW should understand this very well. Any person blinding believing in the Dr. Faucis of this world because it’s cool and sounds anti-Trump is an idiot or very disingenuous.

Rodius

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #60 on: January 08, 2021, 02:02:00 AM »
Nobody knows. The chances are that nobody will ever know. But just in case, here are a few possibilities:

a) A lab error, covered up by the authorities.

b) A deliberate release:
     b1) By an enemy of China, for propaganda reasons.
     b2) By China, in the knowledge that they can lock down their population much better than the democracies can.
     b3) By a Pharma company, knowing that there are big bucks in developing a vaccine. (At first, the experts said it would take 2-5 years; how did they manage it in months unless they had a head start?)
     b4) By Save-the-Planet extremists, trying to perfect a way of killing off a large percentage of the race before we complete the ongoing planetary rape and take ourselves down with the rest of the ecosystem. (Unsuccessful this time - we're still breeding faster than we're dying.)

c) A natural mutation.

I'm going with C. With the proviso that the different B-options will have given some bright but insane people ideas for the future.

Excellent overview. I posted a similar thing in the Lessons from COVID-19 thread:

Quote
1. the origin of the virus, two possibilities:
a) the bat soup story - caused by the widespread destruction of ecosystems (civilisation getting closer and closer to wild animals with hereto unknown diseases, increased demand for exotic foods/bushmeat, etc), which in turn is caused by the need for ever-increasing profits, which is fueled by the need for concentrated wealth to grow and further concentrate endlessly.
b) virus escaped by accident from lab - research into diseases with pandemic potential is also fueled by the profit motive, which is fueled by the need for concentrated wealth to grow and further concentrate endlessly.
c) virus engineered and let loose - like b), but worse.

My point was that whatever the exact origin of the virus, its cause is the same for every scenario: the growth and further concentration of concentrated wealth.

I agree, but one scenario demands several years of natural virus evolution (accelerated by overpopulation by a factor 10? Sure, maybe) while the other uses existing techniques that causes virus alterations in, say, over a month, of what in nature would have taken 100 years.

There is an intrinsic perversion in these GoF experiments. Given the succulent grants, the expected investment returns must be huge for whatever the applications are. But one doesn’t have to be molecular biologist to understand the backfiring risks, concerns that in fact have now been aired.

It’s good to believe in Science, Technology, Medicine. It is not to believe that humankind can use Science and Technology to manipulate nature at their will, because nature will find a way to make humans pay the harm by a x1000. Any person conscious on the dangers unleashed by AGW should understand this very well. Any person blinding believing in the Dr. Faucis of this world because it’s cool and sounds anti-Trump is an idiot or very disingenuous.

I agree, but one scenario demands several years of natural virus evolution (accelerated by overpopulation by a factor 10?
Do you have anything to support that claim?

And assuming that is correct, isn't it equally as plausible to say that it did take a long time but we had no idea it was happening?
Or maybe it was always sitting there waiting for a host it could adapt to easily, and then we turn up?
Or maybe one of the reasons the virus was being researched was the possibility that it would mutate in some way to cause a potential pandemic.... and they were right to think that?

Dr Fauci should be listened to because he is an expert in his field. That video you shared that is somehow meant to discredit him (and by default everything he says), is more an example of one person attempting to keep a narcissist from stopping what little information he was able to deliver as best as he could..... have you considered for even one moment that Fauci downplayed the risk because Trump wanted it downplayed? It is a matter of public record that Trump was well aware of how dangerous Covid is and decided on inaction.... and there is Fauci, the person to deliver the information in a stressful political environment, having to disagree with Trump who is famous for dismissing anyone who disagrees with him.

How anyone can still defend the likes of Trump these days is an act of blind faith.... and you have that in abundance.

I am anti Trump because he is a monster, not because it is cool.
I trust Fauci in spite of his gaming with those particular numbers because his position was tough, and he is an expert in this field.


etienne

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #61 on: January 08, 2021, 07:14:45 AM »
I find it interesting that in earlier civilizations, what could not be explained was the work of nature or of gods. In our civilization, looks like what can't be explained must be the work of some hidden laboratory.

People used to pray gods or nature (the spirits of the see...) for help, now we hope to find the hidden laboratory so that it can explain us what was done and what could be the miraculous cure. 

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #62 on: January 08, 2021, 04:07:41 PM »
No you are just making that up.

The very question of the origin is if it came from the lab or just evolved.

We have labs in known places , we work on those things so yes the possibility exists. Nobody is talking about hidden laboratories but you.

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etienne

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #63 on: January 08, 2021, 05:00:22 PM »
It is a little bit out of topic, but I heard so many things... always somehow related to conspiracy theories, for example that cancer would be easy to cure if big pharma would just provide the cheap drugs they hide instead of the expensive stuff we get...

Ok, we have known labs, but no one is saying "it was me" or "I have been working on how to create viruses" or whatever similar, so this would at least require a hidden program, which allows a flow of creative conspiracy thinking.

The truth is that it is much easier to live with the idea that some bad or clumsy man or woman did it, so we would now be on the safe side because clumsy people realized that they have to be careful, and bad people will now be better controlled (or that we could vote for a super strong leader that would control them).

In the Covid thread, there were few links to articles saying that we don't have yet the technology to be able to develop DNA without scars (I mean here without signs allowing to identify the origin of the sequences), and that the virus doesn't have any such scars, so it can't be a man made virus. I've tried to find it back with the search engine of the forum, but didn't find anything.

There is a German philosopher who said that the impact of COVID is difficult for us to conceive because it is the first time since more than one generation that we have a world wide problem without solution. In normal cases, we really had time to handle the problems, and in many cases, the problem disappeared before the discussion was over.

Some people say that with the AGW, we don't have a problem, but a predicament.

Quote
Predicaments

A fundamental premise of the work at this site, the book and the blog is that we face predicaments, not problems. Problems have solutions, predicaments do not. When faced with a predicament we can respond and adapt, but we cannot make it go away.  It is this way of thinking that lies at the basis of the second theological point, Accept and Adapt.
https://newcityofgod.com/2020/09/02/mission-statement/

I believe that this is also true for Covid19. We shouldn't talk about how to continue our living with Covid, but look at what we need to change in order to go forward.

I would go in this direction.


 
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 05:12:07 PM by etienne »

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #64 on: January 08, 2021, 10:22:15 PM »

I agree, but one scenario demands several years of natural virus evolution (accelerated by overpopulation by a factor 10?
Do you have anything to support that claim?
No, I don't. It is a wild ass guess. My point is, a lab can accelerate virus alterations by a factor of 1000. We live in an overpopulated world where animal-human interactions multiply, but I doubt  by a factor of 1000.
Still, it does not matter! A virus evolving naturally has to deal with randomness, a virus being manipulated in a lab is being done so with all the purpose.

The same purpose Exxon prospects for more extraction locations, Ford builds huge trucks... Hey  It's progress! An Internal Combustion Engine is a great scientific advance with all the purpose. We have all the science to drill in the correct place and find the oil.

Quote
And assuming that is correct, isn't it equally as plausible to say that it did take a long time but we had no idea it was happening?
Or maybe it was always sitting there waiting for a host it could adapt to easily, and then we turn up?
Or maybe one of the reasons the virus was being researched was the possibility that it would mutate in some way to cause a potential pandemic.... and they were right to think that?

Yes, you may be right.
But the more I read about virus manipulation research, the more I think is a very very bad way to follow. Perhaps Wuhan outbreak origin was natural, but it has attracted my attention to this issue, and I don't like it a single bit.

Quote
Dr Fauci should be listened to because he is an expert in his field. That video you shared that is somehow meant to discredit him (and by default everything he says), is more an example of one person attempting to keep a narcissist from stopping what little information he was able to deliver as best as he could..... have you considered for even one moment that Fauci downplayed the risk because Trump wanted it downplayed? It is a matter of public record that Trump was well aware of how dangerous Covid is and decided on inaction.... and there is Fauci, the person to deliver the information in a stressful political environment, having to disagree with Trump who is famous for dismissing anyone who disagrees with him.

Dr. Fauci is an expert, Dr. Mengele was not an idiot either. I am not saying Dr. Fauci is Frankenstein but he talks to the public as if we were all idiots. And he lies like it's nothing. That video of Dore is so revealing.

Quote
How anyone can still defend the likes of Trump these days is an act of blind faith.... and you have that in abundance.
Did I defend the likes of Trump? Are you talking about Dore? Or what exactly? Are you implying that I ever voted Trump? Because I dislike Fauci?

Dore is a leftist, dude. He's more leftist than anybody in the Dem party. He actually pushes for a third party. He definitely is not in favor of the neoLib pro-Establishment, pro-eternal war, pro-climate in platitudes but pro-fracking in facts, anti-Medicare4All, pro-virus-manipulation, pro-Elites goons that we are about to suffer for four years,. Man...

Sorry for the off-topic, just to clarify some points.

Quote
I am anti Trump because he is a monster, not because it is cool.
I trust Fauci in spite of his gaming with those particular numbers because his position was tough, and he is an expert in this field.

Well, good luck trusting him! You're gonna need it!

==================================================================
EDIT: After all the rant I realize you're from Australia. So what do you care about Dr. Fauci? Doesn't your country have its own experts? I don't understand...
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 10:40:00 PM by John Palmer. »

Neven

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #65 on: January 09, 2021, 05:09:00 PM »
I don't really care what the origin of SARS-CoV-2 is, because all possibilities point to the same culprit: the need to grow and further concentrate concentrated wealth. The main reason I'm even posting in this thread, is that it annoys me that any and every proposed alternative is swept off the table using the propagandist term 'conspiracy theory'. As with many things surrounding the SARS-CoV-2 narrative, it's what has been said early on that remains stuck, that then gets repeated and becomes part of this circular reasoning process. For some reason or other, people have this need to automatically defend it all over the Internet and social media. It's a craving for some agreed upon reality, because the alternative - disorder, chaos - is apparently too frightening to consider. But an agreed upon reality rarely coincides with reality itself, and only leads to even more chaos in the long term.

That's why I like to look at the whole picture and let that shape my opinions. In this case, I don't care whether the thing came from bat soup, pangolins eating bird shit at a wet market, a Chinese lab assistant picking his nose or the CIA releasing it during the police olympics. As said, whatever the origin is, the reason for it coming about is the same in all instances (either directly indirectly). It's also the reason the virus spread so successfully around the globe, why it was able to cause such an impact in degenerated populations, and why the reaction is so manipulated and misguided.

People should be able to discuss this and not get shouted down because some Trump idiot supporter or whoever talks in seemingly similar terms.

Anyway, I thought this guy was pretty much accepted here and he talks a bit about the origin of SARS-CoV-2:

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John Palmer.

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #66 on: January 09, 2021, 05:39:01 PM »
I like the way Dr. Campbell puts it:

Bats are a vital part of the ecosystem as indeed are viruses. It’s when people start messing around with them that we have problems.

That’s what was going on in Wuhan, with US money provided by the NIH NIAID directed by Fauci.

Whether that caused the pandemic or not we don’t know, but I have little doubt that we should stop funding all this messing around anywhere it is going on.

etienne

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #67 on: January 09, 2021, 05:49:46 PM »
It looks like everybody is right, the virus could be natural but escaped of a lab.
Looking at the time it took for the English mutation to become mainstream, the wet market  could really just be a super spreader event. It seems that the Covid was already in Italy since September 2019.
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/11/coronavirus-italy-covid-19-pandemic-europe-date-antibodies-study

We can't rule out the lab, but I wouldn't say that the lab should not have existed. Coronaviruses are a problem and it is good to study them.

Thanks for the video. Very interesting.

etienne

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #68 on: January 09, 2021, 05:54:20 PM »
Maybe the lab was in Wuhan because the risk also was there. It's the story of the egg and the hen. Which was there first ?

John Palmer.

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #69 on: January 09, 2021, 06:04:20 PM »
Quote from: etienne

Perhaps this kind of research has pure benefits for medicine. But even so we should ask ourselves: would I support funding for this line of research if it is carried out in a lab within one mile from my home? If the answer is no, then it shouldn’t be supported at all.

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #70 on: January 09, 2021, 09:26:35 PM »
The Lab-Leak Hypothesis
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/coronavirus-lab-escape-theory.html
Quote
What happened was fairly simple, I’ve come to believe. It was an accident. A virus spent some time in a laboratory, and eventually it got out. SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, began its existence inside a bat, then it learned how to infect people in a claustrophobic mine shaft, and then it was made more infectious in one or more laboratories, perhaps as part of a scientist’s well-intentioned but risky effort to create a broad-spectrum vaccine. SARS-2 was not designed as a biological weapon. But it was, I think, designed.
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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #71 on: January 09, 2021, 11:08:35 PM »
A couple of months ago, I read an interesting article about the global biological arms race we almost never hear about:

Quote
Did this virus come from a lab? Maybe not — but it exposes the threat of a biowarfare arms race

Dangerous pathogens are captured in the wild and made deadlier in government biowarfare labs. Did that happen here?

There has been no scientific finding that the novel coronavirus was bioengineered, but its origins are not entirely clear. Deadly pathogens discovered in the wild are sometimes studied in labs — and sometimes made more dangerous. That possibility, and other plausible scenarios, have been incorrectly dismissed in remarks by some scientists and  government officials, and in the coverage of most major media outlets.

Regardless of the source of this pandemic, there is considerable documentation that a global biological arms race going on outside of public view could produce even more deadly pandemics in the future.

While much of the media and political establishment have minimized the threat from such lab work, some hawks on the American right like Sen. Tom Cotton, R-Ark., have singled out Chinese biodefense researchers as uniquely dangerous.

But there is every indication that U.S. lab work is every bit as threatening as that in Chinese labs. American labs also operate in secret, and are also known to be accident-prone.

The current dynamics of the biological arms race have been driven by U.S. government decisions that extend back decades. In December 2009, Reuters reported that the Obama administration was refusing even to negotiate the possible monitoring of biological weapons.

Much of the left in the U.S. now appears unwilling to scrutinize the origin of the pandemic — or the wider issue of biowarfare — perhaps because portions of the anti-Chinese right have been so vocal in making unfounded allegations.

Interview with the author, Sam Husseini, quite an eye-opener:



This kind of research should be outlawed.
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Rodius

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #72 on: January 10, 2021, 01:46:34 AM »
John.....
You make a wild ass guess then make some sort of point based on said wild ass guess.
And you wonder why I don't take your points seriously.

And given you have preconceived ideas, all you needed to do from that point was find information to back up your own thinking.

Fauci lied about some things. What you are not taking into consideration about those lies is the context he was doing it in. Namely, Trump wanted the entire thing ignored and Fauci wouldn't do that. Fauci wanted to remain in the public eye to try to get as much information out as possible without being fired. This is a context that needs to be considered when looking at why he lied. Also, he remained (for the most part) within the ranges stipulated, he just shifted the range he talked about upwards when he felt the public and Trump could deal with it.
Clearly it failed given the current situation.

I don't care about Dore's politics, he is not providing a clear picture of events, or he cant see them, or he simply wants to make a video that people will watch and create a public discussion so he can get paid. He lacks context in this case.

Just because I am from Australia, doesn't mean I cant care about other places around the world. Fauci matters in the US, and the discussion was started by you and I replied. I saw a lack of context in the video that you provided as some sort of evidence about something.
This is an international forum, it talks a lot about the US.
If you don't understand that people can care about other countries, maybe that is a reflection  that the US citizen really doesn't care much about anything outside of the USA. Most of the rest of the world actually know a lot more about other countries than your average run of the mill US citizen. So, I can actually care about the US while living in Australia.

And yes, Australia does have their own experts, and our politicians (for the most part) listen to them. Have you looked at the differences in the Covid results between each country and wondered why they are so radically different? Maybe the US should look at how Australia is doing it and learn a few things.... except they are so caught up in their political bullshit that acting based on science is pretty much impossible.
Let the US machine keep working for the benefit of those with money and power, what are a few hundred thousand extra deaths this year to them so long as the capitalistic machine keeps working for their benefit.

longwalks1

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #73 on: January 11, 2021, 03:02:57 AM »
I really did not think that I would be posting on this section. 
I found via TWIV 705   one of the hosts picks.   

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/371/6525/120
Quote
    Peng Zhou1, Zheng-Li Shi1,2

    1CAS Key Laboratory of Special Pathogens, Wuhan Institute of Virology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Wuhan 430071, China.
    2Shanghai Public Health Clinical Center, Fudan University, Shanghai, China

I have not listened to Twiv 705 yet (youtube-dl is fetching)  and yes, the article does seem to have a viewpoint.   Please do not assume I have a viewpoint on this article.  Praise it or damn it, I  do not care.   I just saw and posted.

Final paragraph

Quote
Another debate concerns the source of SARS-CoV-2 that caused the COVID-19 outbreak at the end of 2019. The current data question the animal origin of SARS-CoV-2 in the seafood market where the early cases were identified in Wuhan, China. Given the finding of SARS-CoV-2 on the surface of imported food packages, contact with contaminated uncooked food could be an important source of SARS-CoV-2 transmission (8). Recently, SARS-CoV-2 antibodies were found in human serum samples taken outside of China before the COVID-19 outbreak was detected (14, 15), which suggests that SARS-CoV-2 existed for some time before the first cases were described in Wuhan. Retrospective investigations of preoutbreak samples from mink or other susceptible animals, as well as humans, should be conducted to identify the hosts of the direct progenitor virus and to determine when the virus spilled over into humans.

Note: on previewing I saw that somehow a emoji somehow became part just before "recently"  in the quote of the final paragraph..  I do not use emojis, I do not know how it got there. 

John Palmer.

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #74 on: January 11, 2021, 01:24:18 PM »
John.....
You make a wild ass guess then make some sort of point based on said wild ass guess.
And you wonder why I don't take your points seriously.

And given you have preconceived ideas, all you needed to do from that point was find information to back up your own thinking.

Fauci lied about some things. What you are not taking into consideration about those lies is the context he was doing it in. Namely, Trump wanted the entire thing ignored and Fauci wouldn't do that. Fauci wanted to remain in the public eye to try to get as much information out as possible without being fired. This is a context that needs to be considered when looking at why he lied. Also, he remained (for the most part) within the ranges stipulated, he just shifted the range he talked about upwards when he felt the public and Trump could deal with it.
Clearly it failed given the current situation.

I don't care about Dore's politics, he is not providing a clear picture of events, or he cant see them, or he simply wants to make a video that people will watch and create a public discussion so he can get paid. He lacks context in this case.

Just because I am from Australia, doesn't mean I cant care about other places around the world. Fauci matters in the US, and the discussion was started by you and I replied. I saw a lack of context in the video that you provided as some sort of evidence about something.
This is an international forum, it talks a lot about the US.
If you don't understand that people can care about other countries, maybe that is a reflection  that the US citizen really doesn't care much about anything outside of the USA. Most of the rest of the world actually know a lot more about other countries than your average run of the mill US citizen. So, I can actually care about the US while living in Australia.

And yes, Australia does have their own experts, and our politicians (for the most part) listen to them. Have you looked at the differences in the Covid results between each country and wondered why they are so radically different? Maybe the US should look at how Australia is doing it and learn a few things.... except they are so caught up in their political bullshit that acting based on science is pretty much impossible.
Let the US machine keep working for the benefit of those with money and power, what are a few hundred thousand extra deaths this year to them so long as the capitalistic machine keeps working for their benefit.

There are several misunderstandings here, I have caused many of them myself, I am sorry.
I have to keep in mind this Forum is international. I did not know Dr. Fauci was popular or even known in Australia. Seems his conflicted journey with Trump has made him immensely popular everywhere.

Anyway my conclusion after this brief discussion is clear: halt funding research that can cause millions of deaths, not a good idea, regardless if SARS-CoV-2 origin was natural or not. Call it potentially-deadly virus genetic manipulation or use the obscure term "gain of function", I don't care.

Rodius

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #75 on: January 11, 2021, 01:37:16 PM »
John.....
You make a wild ass guess then make some sort of point based on said wild ass guess.
And you wonder why I don't take your points seriously.

And given you have preconceived ideas, all you needed to do from that point was find information to back up your own thinking.

Fauci lied about some things. What you are not taking into consideration about those lies is the context he was doing it in. Namely, Trump wanted the entire thing ignored and Fauci wouldn't do that. Fauci wanted to remain in the public eye to try to get as much information out as possible without being fired. This is a context that needs to be considered when looking at why he lied. Also, he remained (for the most part) within the ranges stipulated, he just shifted the range he talked about upwards when he felt the public and Trump could deal with it.
Clearly it failed given the current situation.

I don't care about Dore's politics, he is not providing a clear picture of events, or he cant see them, or he simply wants to make a video that people will watch and create a public discussion so he can get paid. He lacks context in this case.

Just because I am from Australia, doesn't mean I cant care about other places around the world. Fauci matters in the US, and the discussion was started by you and I replied. I saw a lack of context in the video that you provided as some sort of evidence about something.
This is an international forum, it talks a lot about the US.
If you don't understand that people can care about other countries, maybe that is a reflection  that the US citizen really doesn't care much about anything outside of the USA. Most of the rest of the world actually know a lot more about other countries than your average run of the mill US citizen. So, I can actually care about the US while living in Australia.

And yes, Australia does have their own experts, and our politicians (for the most part) listen to them. Have you looked at the differences in the Covid results between each country and wondered why they are so radically different? Maybe the US should look at how Australia is doing it and learn a few things.... except they are so caught up in their political bullshit that acting based on science is pretty much impossible.
Let the US machine keep working for the benefit of those with money and power, what are a few hundred thousand extra deaths this year to them so long as the capitalistic machine keeps working for their benefit.

There are several misunderstandings here, I have caused many of them myself, I am sorry.
I have to keep in mind this Forum is international. I did not know Dr. Fauci was popular or even known in Australia. Seems his conflicted journey with Trump has made him immensely popular everywhere.

Anyway my conclusion after this brief discussion is clear: halt funding research that can cause millions of deaths, not a good idea, regardless if SARS-CoV-2 origin was natural or not. Call it potentially-deadly virus genetic manipulation or use the obscure term "gain of function", I don't care.

Well, people respect Fauci not just because of his conflict with Trump, he is respected because of his rather long and distinguished career.
It is very much a USA thing to think everything is linked to political leanings and that opinions are based on the politics you follow.

Fauci is respected because he is an expert in his field and has done a good many excellent things in his field..... it isn't politics, it is expertise.

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/about/director

kassy

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #76 on: January 11, 2021, 04:33:26 PM »
Note: on previewing I saw that somehow a emoji somehow became part just before "recently"  in the quote of the final paragraph..  I do not use emojis, I do not know how it got there.

In this case an 8 and a ) without the space between them were displayed as an emoji.
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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #77 on: January 11, 2021, 05:43:08 PM »
The Lab-Leak Hypothesis: For decades, scientists have been hot-wiring viruses in hopes of preventing a pandemic, not causing one. But what if …?

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/coronavirus-lab-escape-theory.html

Quote
All possibilities should be on the table, including a lab leak,” a scientist from the NIH, Philip Murphy — chief of the Laboratory of Molecular Immunology — wrote me recently. Nikolai Petrovsky, a professor of endocrinology at Flinders University College of Medicine in Adelaide, Australia, said in an email, “There are indeed many unexplained features of this virus that are hard if not impossible to explain based on a completely natural origin.” Richard Ebright, a molecular biologist at Rutgers University, wrote that he’d been concerned for some years about the Wuhan laboratory and about the work being done there to create “chimeric” (i.e., hybrid) SARS-related bat coronaviruses “with enhanced human infectivity.” Ebright said, “In this context, the news of a novel coronavirus in Wuhan ***screamed*** lab release.”

Quote
For more than 15 years, coronavirologists strove to prove that the threat of SARS was ever present and must be defended against, and they proved it by showing how they could doctor the viruses they stored in order to force them to jump species and go directly from bats to humans. More and more bat viruses came in from the field teams, and they were sequenced and synthesized and “rewired,” to use a term that Baric likes. In this international potluck supper of genetic cookery, hundreds of new variant diseases were invented and stored. And then one day, perhaps, somebody messed up. It’s at least a reasonable, “parsimonious” explanation of what might have happened.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 05:58:35 PM by harpy »

John Palmer.

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #78 on: January 11, 2021, 06:16:29 PM »

Well, people respect Fauci not just because of his conflict with Trump, he is respected because of his rather long and distinguished career.
It is very much a USA thing to think everything is linked to political leanings and that opinions are based on the politics you follow.

Fauci is respected because he is an expert in his field and has done a good many excellent things in his field..... it isn't politics, it is expertise.

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/about/director

Yeah exactly, he is the director of the NIAID, the US public institute that finances deadly virus genetic manipulation around the world (paid with my money, not yours, btw). So screw his reputation and his expertise. That's my point.

harpy

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #79 on: January 11, 2021, 06:25:04 PM »
John, I think you need to take something to calm down, and read the NY Mag article I just posted. 

If you read it ( ::)), it does mention the details with regards to how the US was funding research in China.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 06:46:59 PM by harpy »

John Palmer.

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #80 on: January 11, 2021, 06:32:24 PM »
John, I think you need to take something to calm down, and read the NY Mag article I just posted. 

If you read it ( ::)), it does mention the details with regards to how the US was funding research in China.

lol. Alright, but that article was the first thing I brought to this thread a few days ago.
I'll look for another thing to read though :)

Food for thought. We’ll probably never know...

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/coronavirus-lab-escape-theory.html

Rodius

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #81 on: January 11, 2021, 08:42:34 PM »

Well, people respect Fauci not just because of his conflict with Trump, he is respected because of his rather long and distinguished career.
It is very much a USA thing to think everything is linked to political leanings and that opinions are based on the politics you follow.

Fauci is respected because he is an expert in his field and has done a good many excellent things in his field..... it isn't politics, it is expertise.

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/about/director

Yeah exactly, he is the director of the NIAID, the US public institute that finances deadly virus genetic manipulation around the world (paid with my money, not yours, btw). So screw his reputation and his expertise. That's my point.

Who cares who pays him?
Your thinking is very isolator.

Fauci is a respected expert.

You may not like his field or his job, but it is there anyway. Countries like the US fund this type of research quite a lot (your money lol) so if you dislike it, take it up with your politicians. And given the US Govt wants this type of expert running this type of research, it really comes down to this... Fauci is doing a job, anyone of relative equal knowledge and expertise can do it and are likely to have political pressures put on them. So, you may dislike and distrust Fauci personally, but really, it is the position, not the person, that you should be attacking.

This thread is about the origins of Covid.
Not Fauci as a person or as his position.

If you want to follow the money, the US has its dirty hands all over the place in terms of research into pathogens. Even Wuhan, where so many people want to point the finger at China, has had ongoing funding from the US Govt. So, if it turns out that this is proven to be an experiment that created Covid, the US is partially at fault as well.

harpy

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #82 on: January 18, 2021, 04:08:08 PM »
(U.S. Government) Fact Sheet: Activity at the Wuhan Institute of Virology   

https://www.state.gov/fact-sheet-activity-at-the-wuhan-institute-of-virology/

Quote
The U.S. government does not know exactly where, when, or how the COVID-19 virus—known as SARS-CoV-2—was transmitted initially to humans. We have not determined whether the outbreak began through contact with infected animals or was the result of an accident at a laboratory in Wuhan, China.

Quote
Secrecy and non-disclosure are standard practice for Beijing. For many years the United States has publicly raised concerns about China’s past biological weapons work, which Beijing has neither documented nor demonstrably eliminated, despite its clear obligations under the Biological Weapons Convention.

Despite the WIV presenting itself as a civilian institution, the United States has determined that the WIV has collaborated on publications and secret projects with China’s military. The WIV has engaged in classified research, including laboratory animal experiments, on behalf of the Chinese military since at least 2017.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2021, 04:16:24 PM by harpy »

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #83 on: January 23, 2021, 10:50:15 AM »
If this was a human-made weapon, then it was artificially created using AI. That is the only way this could have been a weapon. The AI had to predict Trump's sabotage of the global coronavirus response. The AI had to predict that it would be treated as a "flu". The AI had to predict that somehow the world would be caught in a "mask don't work" massive lie.

Else this would have been over back in April. The organism itself shouldn't made it past all our defenses. It only did because of the sabotage.

So if the enemy has an AI that could have predicted the tyrant's malice and the peoples' vulnerability to propaganda, you should not fear a tiny piece of code like a virus. You should fear the people with the power to predict such a response.


That said, it is scarier that this can emerge out of randomness than if it was human-made.

Pandemics are absolutely nothing new. They will happen again with increased frequency due to population density.

If this was human-made, I know who was the culprit. But I don't think it was human made.
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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #84 on: January 23, 2021, 08:37:18 PM »
Yuri Deigin began playing scientific investigative journalist april 27 2020 posting evidence on his twitter feed. https://twitter.com/ydeigin?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

It seems more plausible that it was gain of function research that escaped. It's not unusual for lab leaks to occur apparently.

The Non-Paranoid Person’s Guide to Viruses Escaping From Labs
Trump’s China-blaming and conspiracy theories have undermined the real debate about the facilities that handle the world’s deadliest pathogens. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/05/the-non-paranoid-persons-guide-to-viruses-escaping-from-labs/
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zenith

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #85 on: January 25, 2021, 03:03:37 AM »
"Is it safe to acknowledge the obvious?"
Where is reality? Can you show it to me? - Heinz von Foerster

harpy

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #86 on: January 25, 2021, 02:16:02 PM »
Yuri Deigin began playing scientific investigative journalist april 27 2020 posting evidence on his twitter feed. https://twitter.com/ydeigin?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

It seems more plausible that it was gain of function research that escaped. It's not unusual for lab leaks to occur apparently.

The Non-Paranoid Person’s Guide to Viruses Escaping From Labs
Trump’s China-blaming and conspiracy theories have undermined the real debate about the facilities that handle the world’s deadliest pathogens. https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/05/the-non-paranoid-persons-guide-to-viruses-escaping-from-labs/

There's several peer-review studies listed above which would be a good starting points for new members to read with regards to the laboratory origin of COVID-19.

« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 03:10:02 PM by harpy »

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #87 on: January 25, 2021, 05:17:44 PM »
WHO advisor: COVID-19 pandemic likely started via lab leak

https://torontosun.com/news/world/who-advisor-covid-19-pandemic-started-via-a-lab-leak

Quote
The Kansas City-born, New York-based Metzl, who served as Deputy Staff Director of the Foreign Relations Committee under then Senator Joe Biden (2001-2003) and before that on the National Security Council (1997-99) and the State Department (1999-01) under President Bill Clinton), theorizes it was most likely an accidental lab leak in Wuhan.

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #88 on: January 26, 2021, 02:44:01 AM »
WHO advisor: COVID-19 pandemic likely started via lab leak

https://torontosun.com/news/world/who-advisor-covid-19-pandemic-started-via-a-lab-leak

Quote
The Kansas City-born, New York-based Metzl, who served as Deputy Staff Director of the Foreign Relations Committee under then Senator Joe Biden (2001-2003) and before that on the National Security Council (1997-99) and the State Department (1999-01) under President Bill Clinton), theorizes it was most likely an accidental lab leak in Wuhan.

While it is still plausible it is a lab leak, the one thing that sticks in my head comes from an article written by a viral expert.... I am still looking for it but buggered if I can find it.

Anyway, this expert said that the reason he doesn't think it is lab-made is the skills required are beyond what we can do.
He compared it to a surgeon doing surgery with a machete rather than a scapple. Sure, it could be done, but there would be markers showing it.
This suggests it is naturally made and in the wild first.

I will keep looking for the article, but this is why I am not convinced Covid is man-made. But this doesn't mean it isn't an accidental escape though. I just haven't seen evidence for this at this point. Maybe I have missed it?

zenith

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #89 on: January 26, 2021, 04:25:29 AM »
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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #90 on: January 26, 2021, 03:04:37 PM »
WHO advisor: COVID-19 pandemic likely started via lab leak

https://torontosun.com/news/world/who-advisor-covid-19-pandemic-started-via-a-lab-leak

Quote
The Kansas City-born, New York-based Metzl, who served as Deputy Staff Director of the Foreign Relations Committee under then Senator Joe Biden (2001-2003) and before that on the National Security Council (1997-99) and the State Department (1999-01) under President Bill Clinton), theorizes it was most likely an accidental lab leak in Wuhan.

While it is still plausible it is a lab leak, the one thing that sticks in my head comes from an article written by a viral expert.... I am still looking for it but buggered if I can find it.

Anyway, this expert said that the reason he doesn't think it is lab-made is the skills required are beyond what we can do.
He compared it to a surgeon doing surgery with a machete rather than a scapple. Sure, it could be done, but there would be markers showing it.
This suggests it is naturally made and in the wild first.

I will keep looking for the article, but this is why I am not convinced Covid is man-made. But this doesn't mean it isn't an accidental escape though. I just haven't seen evidence for this at this point. Maybe I have missed it?

Lab leak does not equate to lab created.  It is entirely possible that they were experimenting on bats when the virus escaped.  It may have been there all along, but they just made it more accessible.

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #91 on: January 26, 2021, 05:08:47 PM »
They were 100% not experimenting with bats, you always works with the virus.
We can alter bits of the virus and in lots of labs they research functions that make virusses more efficient.

The answer is all in the early Covid genome.
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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #93 on: January 26, 2021, 08:47:51 PM »
No offense, but I'd take the opinion, and facts presented by the US department of state on this matter.  :-* 

If you'd like to read more about the animal experiments in China, you can refer to the US Embassy website, and the US Department of State website:


https://lb.usembassy.gov/fact-sheet-activity-wuhan-institute-of-virology/


https://2017-2021.state.gov/fact-sheet-activity-at-the-wuhan-institute-of-virology//index.html

Quote
2. Research at the WIV:

Starting in at least 2016 – and with no indication of a stop prior to the COVID-19 outbreak – WIV researchers conducted experiments involving RaTG13, the bat coronavirus identified by the WIV in January 2020 as its closest sample to SARS-CoV-2 (96.2% similar). The WIV became a focal point for international coronavirus research after the 2003 SARS outbreak and has since studied animals including mice, bats, and pangolins.

The WIV has a published record of conducting “gain-of-function” research to engineer chimeric viruses. But the WIV has not been transparent or consistent about its record of studying viruses most similar to the COVID-19 virus, including “RaTG13,” which it sampled from a cave in Yunnan Province in 2013 after several miners died of SARS-like illness.
WHO investigators must have access to the records of the WIV’s work on bat and other coronaviruses before the COVID-19 outbreak. As part of a thorough inquiry, they must have a full accounting of why the WIV altered and then removed online records of its work with RaTG13 and other viruses.

3. Secret military activity at the WIV:

Secrecy and non-disclosure are standard practice for Beijing. For many years the United States has publicly raised concerns about China’s past biological weapons work, which Beijing has neither documented nor demonstrably eliminated, despite its clear obligations under the Biological Weapons Convention.

Despite the WIV presenting itself as a civilian institution, the United States has determined that the WIV has collaborated on publications and secret projects with China’s military. The WIV has engaged in classified research, including laboratory animal experiments, on behalf of the Chinese military since at least 2017.

The United States and other donors who funded or collaborated on civilian research at the WIV have a right and obligation to determine whether any of our research funding was diverted to secret Chinese military projects at the WIV.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 09:06:56 PM by harpy »

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #94 on: January 26, 2021, 10:46:05 PM »
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The Walrus

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #95 on: January 27, 2021, 12:06:13 AM »
Are you saying that this report is bogus?

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/world/wuhan-lab-researchers-admit-being-bitten-by-coronavirus-infected-bats-report/article33606952.ece#

No but what happens in caves is not what happens in labs.

But if the researchers who work in the labs were bitten by covid-infected bats in the caves ...

harpy

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #96 on: January 28, 2021, 06:24:09 PM »
https://2017-2021.state.gov/fact-sheet-activity-at-the-wuhan-institute-of-virology//index.html

The US State department commented on infected lab workers at the Wuhan Laboratory:

Quote
The U.S. government has reason to believe that several researchers inside the WIV became sick in autumn 2019, before the first identified case of the outbreak, with symptoms consistent with both COVID-19 and common seasonal illnesses. This raises questions about the credibility of WIV senior researcher Shi Zhengli’s public claim that there was “zero infection” among the WIV’s staff and students of SARS-CoV-2 or SARS-related viruses.

nadir

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #97 on: January 30, 2021, 07:06:57 PM »
The lab origin theory is quickly losing its “conspiracy” stigma now that it’s not so politicized or that the political angle has changed, and is going mainstream literally on prime time.

Not sure about the expertise of these two people, but some of their points make a lot of sense, certainly implying that the burden of proof may be much heavier for the postulants of the natural origin of SARS-CoV-2.


DaveHitz

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #98 on: January 30, 2021, 10:18:07 PM »
If this was a human-made weapon, then it was artificially created using AI. That is the only way this could have been a weapon.

Why do you think Artificial Intelligence is the only way to create a human-made virus weapon?

The article that started this whole thread describes how repeated passes through artificially created environments can be used to generate dangerous viruses. That doesn't prove it happened that way, but it seems to argue that it is at least plausible to create such things without AI.

People have been using "human selection" instead of "natural selection" to create new biological entities forever. Why not with viruses?

etienne

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Re: Origins of COVID-19
« Reply #99 on: January 31, 2021, 09:26:26 AM »
Not sure about the expertise of these two people, but some of their points make a lot of sense, certainly implying that the burden of proof may be much heavier for the postulants of the natural origin of SARS-CoV-2.

I guess it will be an issue that will never bee settled, excepted if it would be officially recognized. I don't know if the Chinese government keeps archives about its failures.

The process that is described could also happen without human intervention, they talk about pulling the virus in one direction by providing specific environment, not about combining DNA in order to create it . Employees of the lab could also have gotten the virus when looking for bats. Was the lab there because of the risk or was the risk there because of the lab, I guess we will never know and I don't believe that the WHO will find anything interesting.

Could anybody explain why it is so important to know where it comes from ? I feel that we know quite well now what the virus does, and I don't think it would help us to heal people. Maybe it would  scare the anti mask and anti lockdown movement, so that safety rules would be easier to implement, it wouldn't be possible to say that it is just a flu, and people might agree that a vaccine is needed in order to be protected of a human made virus.