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Freegrass

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The Collapse Of America
« on: January 20, 2021, 04:50:45 PM »
Why was this thread deleted?
And so we pray...

When factual science is in conflict with our beliefs, we cuddle up in our own delusional fantasy where everything starts making sense again...

The Walrus

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2021, 05:57:16 PM »
Probably because it was deemed obsolete.

kassy

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2021, 07:52:10 PM »
1 That posting style does not really help.
2 There is zero content relating to the subject of the thread.
3 We already have threads about the USA discussing that.

So i bet it was deleted because it was redundant and this one will not fare much better.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

oren

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2021, 08:22:42 PM »
FG, you should only post when sober. (I assume).

be cause

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2021, 08:52:47 PM »
I have never deleted a thread ! b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 + 1 =  ' if only we could have seen it coming ' ...

Alexander555

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2021, 09:02:11 PM »
How big will the budget deficit be when Biden ends his first fiscal year, close to 10 trillion usd ?
 

Freegrass

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2021, 09:04:47 PM »
How big will the budget deficit be when Biden ends his first fiscal year, close to 10 trillion usd ?
Are we starting the budget deficit BS again? How big did it get under Trump? And where were you then?
And so we pray...

When factual science is in conflict with our beliefs, we cuddle up in our own delusional fantasy where everything starts making sense again...

Alexander555

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2021, 09:09:33 PM »
It's the responsability of Biden now. If he ends the stimulis, and reverses the tax cuts for the rich. It will be close to under controle. If he stays on the same road, the usd is finished.

Freegrass

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2021, 09:11:43 PM »
Money is basically free now. Japan has been living with a huge debt for ages... It's not as big as a problem as they say it is...

You can't build a house without debt...

Borrow, rebuild, and when the economy booms again, don't be greedy and stupid and pay back your loans...
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 09:18:29 PM by Freegrass »
And so we pray...

When factual science is in conflict with our beliefs, we cuddle up in our own delusional fantasy where everything starts making sense again...

Alexander555

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2021, 09:27:20 PM »
When you are bankrupted, you can't build a house without debt. Biden is just another globalist puppet, and he will ruine the usd. And reversing tax cuts for the rich is a good thing to do for a democrat. Is'nt it ?

Freegrass

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2021, 09:42:09 PM »
I hear ya! But don't underestimate the incredible wealth Americannot possesses. The Petro Dollar is still the dominant currency in the world. Although that's changing, and will change more when oil fades away as it's being replaced by alternative energy...

America will collapse because of religious extremism and a cold/warm war with China over global dominance
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 10:20:29 PM by Freegrass »
And so we pray...

When factual science is in conflict with our beliefs, we cuddle up in our own delusional fantasy where everything starts making sense again...

kassy

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2021, 09:53:52 PM »
So the point of this is chatting about something you like chatting about.
The subject is in lots of other threads so this is redundant.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

gerontocrat

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2021, 10:01:47 PM »
Then who deleted it? You're the moderator here.
I guess you were last in line when they were handing out brains? Of course this thread is useless. I just made it BECAUSE I WANT MY ORIGINAL THREAD BACK!!!

Were you the one who deleted it?

Freegrass - sometimes you are a plonker.


The thread is not deleted - you put it somewhere else, namely.....

Arctic Sea Ice : Forum »Off-topic »The rest (Moderator: be cause) »The Collapse Of America

1st post was at
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,3129.msg268876.html#msg268876

"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
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Freegrass

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2021, 10:16:09 PM »
Oops... My bad! I searched for it in the search box and couldn't find it...
My apologies! Thank you!

This thread can be deleted now...

I'll go hide in shame somewhere now...  :-[
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 10:30:44 PM by Freegrass »
And so we pray...

When factual science is in conflict with our beliefs, we cuddle up in our own delusional fantasy where everything starts making sense again...

LeftyLarry

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2021, 08:20:13 PM »
Money is basically free now. Japan has been living with a huge debt for ages... It's not as big as a problem as they say it is...

You can't build a house without debt...

Borrow, rebuild, and when the economy booms again, don't be greedy and stupid and pay back your loans...

Actually, it is a big problem.
The only reason, Japan, the EU and to a lesser extent America has been able to accumulate so much debt, is low interest rates.
As long as investors don’t want their cash tucked in their mattress and view the Dow and Nasdaq as crazy overpriced , they will continue to buy U.S. treasuries at ridiculously low rates, like 0.6% and less, as a safe haven.
As the debt continues to build up and the U.S. continues to print money backed by nothing, of course there will be inflation and those returns will go up and the U.S. Government and everyone else’s will be forced to pay much, much more Interest, making them insolvent.
Uh, no, there are not enough RICH people to cover the Government’s spending, even if you taxed them at 100% of their earnings every year, it wouldn’t make a dent.That is a big lie and of course they stop investing and creating wealth when you take away any and all incentive for them to do so, that has been proven everywhere.

Who you will have to tax is middle class people, the Rich and upper middle class in America and I loosely refer to them as Upper middle class with a combined family income of $250,000 , are already under the gun, especially if they live in an attractive suburb, paying ridiculous Real Estate taxes on top of everything else.

As for China, they have made their goals pretty public and that’s world domination through Economic domination.



Freegrass

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2021, 02:24:28 PM »
I can't argue with that Larry! And the proof of what you say is the price of Bitcoin and gold... Rich and smart people know already. Poor and purposely held ignorant people don't... It's those people that will pay the price again...


I was looking to see if this thread was deleted already. There are two "The Collapse Of America" threads now...

One should be deleted!

Again, my apologies...
I will try to do and be better...
The hole is so damn deep right now...  :'(
And so we pray...

When factual science is in conflict with our beliefs, we cuddle up in our own delusional fantasy where everything starts making sense again...

LeftyLarry

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2021, 05:34:26 PM »
I can't argue with that Larry! And the proof of what you say is the price of Bitcoin and gold... Rich and smart people know already. Poor and purposely held ignorant people don't... It's those people that will pay the price again...

well, not sure I believe in Bitcoin, long term, at any time Government’s can decide to make it illegal if it’s causing too much Revenue loss and then it’s pretty worthless but I agree that the more big money invests in it, the less likely it is for that to happen, however, I don’t agree with the rest of your comment.

Poor don’t play a direct role in Bitcoin, Gold , Assets depreciation , higher taxation or anything else that will be effected by Government overspending and the sh-t storm that is coming .
In the U.S. what you call the poor don’t pay any taxes and receive not only food, lodging and medical but often receive a check from the U.S. Government at the same time everyone else is paying their income taxes.

The top 10% in the U.S. pays about 70% of all the income taxes , the top 25% pays about 86% of all the Income taxes and they even pay a higher percentage of all the other taxation, State, City, School taxes, Real Estate etc.

The problem for the poor is they can’t hope to improve their lot unless the “Rich” are creating jobs and spending money, which is difficult to do with more regulations and higher taxation.

Lastly, you speak of ignorance, which is not the real problem.I was ignorant about meteorology, climate change, Arctic sea ice, etc, I came here started reading, went on the Internet , read  a few books and I’m becoming much less ignorant on the issues.

That isn’t  the real problem, the problem isn’t ignorance, the problem is BLINDNESS.
Blindness is, when you don’t even know that there is something to know.
That’s what keeps many of the poor, poor.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2021, 06:06:30 PM by LeftyLarry »

Stephen

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2021, 11:49:10 AM »
Well here's an alternate and more optimistic view. One that says that the USA is merely going through one of its regular re-inventions.

George Friedman - The Storm before the Calm

and here's a link to a 20 minute interview with the author
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/latenightlive/the-storm-before-the-calm/12529752

Mt Friedman's main thesis is that the USA is now the only real superpower.  Only the USA can project its power to every continent and every ocean simultaneously.  China does not even come close. USA is still the centre of tech invention.  China just copies and mass produces.

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The ice was all around:
It crack'd and growl'd, and roar'd and howl'd,   
Like noises in a swound!
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gerontocrat

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2021, 01:16:33 PM »

Mt Friedman's main thesis is that the USA is now the only real superpower.  USA is still the centre of tech invention.  China just copies and mass produces.

China just copies and mass produces.
This is very old stuff - the phrase "just a Chinese copy" was used to indicate an inferior product.

The fact remains that China invests vast sums in its public school system.
The US has been neglecting and / or attacking its public school system for a generation.
Many say even many of the US's best Universities have switched from being cathedrals of knowledge to money-making machines.

if this is not attended to....
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

LeftyLarry

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2021, 04:25:27 PM »
China has been investing even more in America’s School System.

There were 375,000 Chinese nationals enrolled in U.S. Universities in the 2019-2020 year.

As for America , we are dealing with millions of grade school students who arrive not speaking a word of English often from single parent households that take years to be brought up to speed , doesn’t matter how much you spend on public schools , it barely makes a dent.
Additionally, private and Charter Schools  have proven to be much more successful,  so the argument is to give parents a choice when the teachers Union are more interested in politics than teaching  math & science.

At the end of the day Scientists worldwide went to work on a vaccine for Covid-19 , Moderna and Pfizer were the winners. Not China who experienced the outbreak first.

longwalks1

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2021, 02:36:53 AM »
I usually avoid this subsection, catholic worker sheltering the homeless and SPUSUA Debs-Thomas socialist kind of guy - I can attest the great unravlleing has been going on for decades.  Back in the mid to late 80's there would be months I had more than 20 homeless war vets living with me, two winters in a row.    However  - the following really chaps my gluteals.   

Quote
As for America , we are dealing with millions of grade school students who arrive not speaking a word of English often from single parent households

A block away from 3 different houses I worked with the mentally challenged was was an elementary school where all the children who entered it in kindergarten or 1rst grade were challenged by a new language.    It was not a big deal.  I tend to believe that for most children they are exceptional at that age for acquiring a language (or two or three).   It is called  immersion.  That one in Winnipeg was of the French immersion variety, the Francophones usually send their children to the Anglais. If the unitedstates wanted to do it, they could. A couple less military jets might do the trick. 

 I can tell you that the peckerwoods down here in the united states get feisty when I bring up how people in Canada live 3 years longer and pay 1/2 as much for health care; differences in schools; and they still hold onto imperial units, etc.etc. etc., fervently.  I have been back to the usa for 3 years to take care of my parents, it has really gone down hill in the midwest since I went to work in Canada in Dec 99. 

I really do not see how children from south of the Rio Grand are an integral part of the Collapse.  They are a parcel, from the dozens and dozens of coups and us military interventions that still occur.   Squeezed via economic and climate  devastation, they came.  To be blunt, I find that section of your post quite offensive. 

Again, longwalks1, the one hit wonder will talk about how Canada also does such a better job with refugees and other immigrants.  There are jobs  (at least there was) and they help them get them.  The one house I worked in I had 21 co-workers and none of us had been born in Canada,  one Iowan and 21 from Africa, with a Columbian or Nepali sprinkled in at times.  And yes, they definitely were active Canadians.   Immigrants and refugees are to me a solution more than a problem. 

If one wants to look at concrete things that define the collapse, look at the failing infrastructure, especially the 80 year old insulators in the power lines in the mountains of California and the dams nation wide.  Look at how the holy cow of the personal auto has been enthroned since the early 50's and mass transit been traumatized by not so very benign neglect.   How much has been spent on the wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan, a real bang for your buck there.   How many nuclear fool fuel pools are there in the US that are 50 meters above ground  and what is their average age and how much over their initial design for loading are they and then say the words neutron embrittlement.  It affects metal and concrete. 

 Look at the expenditures on nuclear weapons, St. Obama signed off on the largest increase in nuclear warfare capability modernization for the entire triad, over a trillion dollars - highest since the Truman administration. This is including ground launched ICBM warhead moderninzation which two consecutive heads of SNIC called for terminating all land based missiles when they retired.    Missileers these days have the highest drug usage of any officer section in the entire us military according to some sources.  There was a huge rampant cheating system for their ongoing education.  Some of them have to shit in buckets for 3 days because plumbing has failed after 50 plus years and their computer hardware is PDP-8 ' ish. 260 billion to modernize the warheads.  And more later to for the other problems.    Repeat for the F-35 F-22, the new naval landing crafts, etc.   I tend to believe that the concept of the aircraft carrier has been cratering since the implications of the Exocet missiles in the Falklands wars with now several generations more than incremental advances.  How may billions does it cost to build a carrier?   And the used fuel is some of the most dangerous things on this planet.  Repetition of the same mistakes is a classical definition of certain mental illnesses.   

If there is anyone to excorciate it is the propagandists of advertising, the military industrial complex, the demopublicans and the republicrat officials and pretty much every single major domo  in the corporations.   Children who arrive at school with only one language, that is an easily solved solution.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/39118/majority-of-voters-dont-want-billions-spent-on-new-icbms-to-overhaul-americas-nuclear-sponge

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/13715/usaf-awards-contractors-big-bucks-for-new-icbms-but-future-of-missiles-is-uncertain
 

oren

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2021, 05:22:05 AM »
Great post longwalks1 (and thanks for calling out the offensive part of not so lefty's post).
Someone upthread quoted an article in which "Mr Friedman's main thesis is that the USA is now the only real superpower." If this wasn't so sad it would be hilarious. The USA is an empire in sharp decline, and I envy not any of its citizens.

Alexander555

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2021, 11:42:52 AM »
The US kicked Iran out of SWIFT, so they still controle the global payment system. And i think they still controle IANA. I have no idea how importand that is, but it looks like they controle the internet. And the USD is still the world reserve currency. But probably all of them are under attack by China.

Alexander555

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2021, 11:46:14 AM »
The question is how will the world look like as soon as China gets controle over all these things.

kassy

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2021, 02:29:53 PM »
Excellent post longwalks1. I sometimes joke that the USA could do so much good with only half the fraud money from the pentagon...

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2021, 03:19:14 PM »
kassy:
It's not a joke.
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LeftyLarry

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2021, 12:32:32 AM »


One of my biggest problems with today’s press and the kind of articles they write is they are great at CONTENT but not so good at CONTEXT and that could be the problem here too.

a huge amount of Canadians leave Canada every year for better Heath care and procedures, where do they come for these procedures? yes, the United States.
as I have spent some time in Fla playing golf in the winters, I can, anecdotally , tell you I always run into Canadians who come to the U.S. for Medical care.

https://torontosun.com/news/national/canadians-continue-to-leave-the-country-for-health-care-says-new-report

The biggest problem in the Schools here in the U.S. is the teachers unions.
Aside from their Ridiculous WOKE agendas which traditionally have been about slowing down the progress of the good students so the bad ones won’t lose their competitive advantage, what has happened is that blue collar women have become the teachers and frankly , are working mostly to get a pension and have their summers off.
My wife taught in a 100% minority school, for 30 years , , she started a “ book club” with her most interested students during lunch, started a Chess Club so they could get a grasp of what strategy was about  , taught Shakespeare to her 4th graders , was beloved in the community and had to write all of the Grant requests and much other paperwork because many of the newer teachers weren’t very literate and even her Assistant Principal, who’s job it was,  couldn’t do it.
She finally quit when they told her to stop worrying about enriching the children but just train them to pass the tests.

As for the life expectancy ,
Sadly , amongst minority populations , we have had in recent years, a tremendous increase of deaths to young people in those communities from shootings and self- inflicted  things like overdoses etc.
additionally, during the Obama years , there was an enormous  increase in amount of opioid use and subsequent deaths of young people a few years later that continues but is subsiding quickly.

So, unscientifically, I would imagine that if you break down the reasons for the CONTENT that Canada’s life expectancy is 3 years longer and put it in proper context, I think you will find that the U.S. still has the best healthcare in the world and as a percentage plenty of very old people.
To bad some of our Blue State Governor’s thought it was a good idea to put Covid patients in our nursing homes or many more would still be alive now also.

Lastly, yes, as long as the U.S. allows countries like Canada and the EU to purchase drugs, often developed in America at a cost of billions of dollars,  at much cheaper prices, those Countries can prosper, heck, the EU hasn’t spent beans on defense in many years and if the U.S. didn’t protect them through NATO and didn’t allow them to be protectionist against U.S. goods and services they would have a lot of trouble providing anything, let alone good healthcare.

About a year ago  in GB , I read that a women was guaranteed to see a Dr , if she found a lump in her breast, within 90 days and was again guaranteed to begin treatment within the next 90 days and they were having trouble meeting those timetables and had apologized publicly.
If one of my friends wives finds a lump, she sees her Dr. within 24 hours, sees a specialist , often immediately, sometimes waits a few days and begins treatments immediately, when necessary.

Lastly, my friend is a top eye cancer Specialist and has young Drs. from all over the world come to his practice to learn.
Radiating an eye usually leaves the vision somewhere between 20-200 &  20-400 depending on location. He uses a different isotope and his system often leaves the patient with 20-20  to 20-60 vision but none of the other countries in the EU or Canada is willing to pay the extra money to save that vision in only 1 eye, so only he uses it and the person I know who he treated actually sees 20/20 in that eye, after cataract surgery also.

For years I have I have read a perverted view of the U.S. in the BBC and other news reporting services, plenty of content to support their anti- U.S. agenda , little Context.

proof of the pudding?
People from every country in the world, often from Europe and Canada too, are lined up to enter the U.S.



 


Tom_Mazanec

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2021, 01:55:00 AM »
Re: Context of Life Expectancy
How much of that is because the US makes Herculean efforts to save inviable babies who die a few days after birth, lowering life expectancy, while other countries just let them die and do not count them? Or is that "fake news"?
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oren

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2021, 04:19:27 AM »
Quote
I can, anecdotally , tell you I always run into Canadians who come to the U.S. for Medical care
Let me guess, not-so-lefty, that these are rich Canadians? The US is a great place for very rich people, a rather terrible place for most anyone else.

Quote
People from every country in the world, often from Europe and Canada too, are lined up to enter the U.S.
I believe this is changing quite rapidly, following the gross mismanagement of the Covid crisis that has exposed just how bad the American healthcare and economic system is.

Sebastian Jones

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2021, 05:36:54 AM »
An unusual feature of Canadian health care systems, compared to those in the EU, the UK, the US, Australia etc, is that it really does not have a parallel private system for rich people.
So, yes Lefty, some wealthier Canadians do flitter off to America, and to other places for medical tourism- cosmetic surgery is a favourite reason.
I am Canadian, and like most Canadians I live within 100km of the US. In my case, Alaska.
Like most Canadians, I have many American friends and prior to Covid it was pretty easy for us to travel there. I.e., Canadians have a pretty clear idea of what America is like.
I can assure you that there are not many Canadians 'lined up to enter the U.S.'

The Walrus

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2021, 03:12:55 PM »
Re: Context of Life Expectancy
How much of that is because the US makes Herculean efforts to save inviable babies who die a few days after birth, lowering life expectancy, while other countries just let them die and do not count them? Or is that "fake news"?

Not fake news.  It definitely drags down the overall life expectancy. 

kassy

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2021, 06:30:36 PM »
kassy:
It's not a joke.

Well it´s funny because it is true.  ;)
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

gerontocrat

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2021, 07:06:36 PM »
Re: Context of Life Expectancy
How much of that is because the US makes Herculean efforts to save inviable babies who die a few days after birth, lowering life expectancy, while other countries just let them die and do not count them? Or is that "fake news"?
Infant mortality is a very small percentage of US Deaths, in 2018 0.76%

In the USA in 2018, a total of 21,467 deaths occurred in children under 1 year, compared with 2,839,205 total deaths.

So yes, fake news.

Some other data...
World infant mortality rate (2017) 29 deaths per 1,000 live births, a big reduction from 65 in 1970.
US Infant mortality rate 5.9 deaths per 1,000 live births.
European Union Infant mortality rate 4 deaths per 1,000 live births.
Low income countries  Infant mortality rate 49 deaths per 1,000 live births (2019).

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1513350/
Quote
Conclusions: These results provide strong evidence that the Gulf war and trade sanctions caused a threefold increase in mortality among Iraqi children under five years of age. We estimate that more than 46,900 children died between January and August 1991.
Low income and war is the most important determinant of infant and child mortality, as both define accessibility to health care, even in countries with universal health care.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db355-h.pdf
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LeftyLarry

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2021, 09:06:03 PM »
An unusual feature of Canadian health care systems, compared to those in the EU, the UK, the US, Australia etc, is that it really does not have a parallel private system for rich people.
So, yes Lefty, some wealthier Canadians do flitter off to America, and to other places for medical tourism- cosmetic surgery is a favourite reason.
I am Canadian, and like most Canadians I live within 100km of the US. In my case, Alaska.
Like most Canadians, I have many American friends and prior to Covid it was pretty easy for us to travel there. I.e., Canadians have a pretty clear idea of what America is like.
I can assure you that there are not many Canadians 'lined up to enter the U.S.'

No, the people I talk to were all coming for Cardiac surgery and joint replacements .

I did not mean to imply that anyone is running out of Canada , Canada is a nice place, I have enjoyed visiting it and will visit again but to suggest that somehow people don’t think the U.S. is a great place to live, frankly is crazy also.
I won’t respond to every post addressed at me but I will say that most of the Americans I know, their children and grandchildren, think the U.S. is a great place to live and have no plans of leaving.

Yes, Leftist policies here, do not bode well for the future AND as I always say, the difference between leftist economics and Conservative economics is simple.

The conservative viewpoint, ( which used to be the mainstream American viewpoint) is let’s keep making the pie bigger and bigger and bigger, And yes, some  people will end up getting an enormous piece of the pie but there is always enough left that everyone else gets a nice piece too AND most importantly, the people getting the really big pieces of the pie often change, often go from “Rags to riches “as we like to say here in America.

 Leftists policies, on the other hand, ALWAYS shrink the size of the pie , it gets smaller and smaller but they don’t care, as long as EVERYBODY gets the same sized piece.

Fundamental differences, one is the policy of success, of risk & reward and the other the policy of anger and jealously or as a famous British Prime Minister once said, “ Socialism is a wonderful idea, until you run out of other people’s money.”

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2021, 04:08:01 AM »

While the pie may be getting bigger the size of most individuals piece gets smaller so your notion that everyone gets more is wrong. Most people are fighting over crumbs. Sure you get a "raise" sometimes but those do not keep up with the official inflation numbers which are artificially low to begin with. The only group who is getting a real increase in wealth are the very wealthy. Small business owners continue to be pushed out by major corporations. Taxes are very regressive once you account for the notion most income for the extremely wealthy is not considered income. The system is set up like this all so the uber wealthy can squeeze more income from the rest of society. The can not even spend more money in their lifetime so the only benefit they get from it is bragging rights anyway. I do not suggest we take a wealthy persons money. We need to demand that super wealthy people stop stealing so much money from the rest of us. The pie in the US is plenty big to allow everyone a reasonable piece and still reward those who entrepreneurs and all the others society chooses to reward with extra. If everyone had the same size piece that would be bad too.
I do not want everyone to get the same size piece. But we are in absolutely no danger of that occurring in this country just the opposite right now the right has made most of the population into wage slaves. I believe nine individuals own more than the lowest half of the population. Eleven families own over 50% of the wealth in the US. Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, Warren Buffet, Sam Walton and sons. Their are plenty of people who are just as talented and hard working who make far less. Tens of thousands or more worked to make that money and most received far less. When anyone of these super rich individuals does not have enough money to buy anything they want then your argument about the distribution of wealth might actually resonate. Until then please stop repeating inaccurate propaganda. 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2021, 04:13:24 AM by interstitial »

LeftyLarry

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2021, 05:56:32 AM »

While the pie may be getting bigger the size of most individuals piece gets smaller so your notion that everyone gets more is wrong. Most people are fighting over crumbs. Sure you get a "raise" sometimes but those do not keep up with the official inflation numbers which are artificially low to begin with. The only group who is getting a real increase in wealth are the very wealthy. Small business owners continue to be pushed out by major corporations. Taxes are very regressive once you account for the notion most income for the extremely wealthy is not considered income. The system is set up like this all so the uber wealthy can squeeze more income from the rest of society. The can not even spend more money in their lifetime so the only benefit they get from it is bragging rights anyway. I do not suggest we take a wealthy persons money. We need to demand that super wealthy people stop stealing so much money from the rest of us. The pie in the US is plenty big to allow everyone a reasonable piece and still reward those who entrepreneurs and all the others society chooses to reward with extra. If everyone had the same size piece that would be bad too.
I do not want everyone to get the same size piece. But we are in absolutely no danger of that occurring in this country just the opposite right now the right has made most of the population into wage slaves. I believe nine individuals own more than the lowest half of the population. Eleven families own over 50% of the wealth in the US. Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, Warren Buffet, Sam Walton and sons. Their are plenty of people who are just as talented and hard working who make far less. Tens of thousands or more worked to make that money and most received far less. When anyone of these super rich individuals does not have enough money to buy anything they want then your argument about the distribution of wealth might actually resonate. Until then please stop repeating inaccurate propaganda.

Last time I went into a Hospital, to take my Covid shot, I looked on the wall and do you know what it said? donated by Mr. and Mrs Rich guy, when I used to  go to an Art Museum or a Library  or enter a University building,  again it said  Donated by Mr & Mrs rich guy. 

 Then I go to the theatre or to hear classical music, same story paid for by Mr & Mrs rich guy, except sometimes its the foundations that were set up by the Old Robber barons which again is really being for paid for by Mr& Mrs rich guy, then I turn on PUblic Broadcasting to see great programming and guess who paid for it, yep. Mr and Mrs rich guy.

I believe Warren Buffet is leaving 98 % of his massive wealth to Gates foundation and other charities.
Bezos and Musk are still out there creating stuff and I would imagine like most TOO rich , they will leave most of the money to charity also.This is a much better program than having the Government piss the money away.

Look, I grew up before the Internet and yes, the guys who got in early have made crazy enormous amounts of money as a one time deal but believe me that is no reason to want to destroy Capitalism.

When I was a child the Worlds population was about 2.7 Billion people and starvation was rampant, people went to bed hungry all over the world.Now, I believe the worlds population is about 7.5 Billion people and there is less starvation than ever before, all thanks to Capitalism.

Don’t  throw the baby out with the bath water.

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2021, 06:55:23 AM »
Not so Lefty has a line of thinking about the rich and trikle down economics that has been proven wrong time and time and time again.

It is simple to prove wrong.... the rich are getting richer in the US while the poor are getting poorer.
That lovely pie you talk about may be getting bigger, (which is also stupid given we live on a finite planet.... but lets ignore that flaw of logic as well) but the rich take almost all of the extra bits leaving the poor with less per person.

Here is a little article to read to explain this in the current situation...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-25/covid-19-pandemic-exacerbating-wealth-inequality/13089128

The Walrus

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2021, 01:54:52 PM »
I would have to agree with lefty.  Recently, pre-COVID, real income was increasing for the majority (bigger piece of the pie) and poverty was falling.  Yes, the rich did comparatively better, but most others did well also.

https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2020/demo/p60-270.html

The rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer is just a political sound bite, and not based on reality.

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2021, 07:30:13 PM »
Not so Lefty has a line of thinking about the rich and trikle down economics that has been proven wrong time and time and time again.

It is simple to prove wrong.... the rich are getting richer in the US while the poor are getting poorer.
That lovely pie you talk about may be getting bigger, (which is also stupid given we live on a finite planet.... but lets ignore that flaw of logic as well) but the rich take almost all of the extra bits leaving the poor with less per person.

Here is a little article to read to explain this in the current situation...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-25/covid-19-pandemic-exacerbating-wealth-inequality/13089128

What you call the so-called poor when I was a child, pretty much doesn’t  exist anymore.
Nobody is hungry, the problem for the poor in America is too much obesity, everyone has a cell phone and the Internet and in my area, everyone wears $150 sneakers LOL.
the worst cars used by the poorest for transportation work better, ride better and need less maintenance than the cars of the past.
Over 60% of Americans own their own homes which means there is more home ownership now then there were people in the country before WW2.
I live in a suburb of NYC and all I see are young people , who went to college, got married, choose a profession where they actually get paid, are having children and are buying homes that over time will add value and become a retirement fund.

my grandfather came here from Europe in 1918 right after WW1.

He was destitute and didn’t speak English but a distant cousin “ sponsored” him , which meant he guaranteed my grandfather wouldn’t use public assistance, medical debt, get in legal trouble, etc.
after three years of eating just enough to live, while working three jobs, he was able to bring over my grandmother and their daughter who was then 4.

He eventually opened his own business , made a decent living working 10 hours a day and raised 4 sons who went off to fight in WW2 instead of attending college.
Those brothers started as peddlers then opened their own business and my cousins and I were able to to attend college and we have mostly all done very well.

my three children are married have three children each and own their own homes in an upscale suburban area which they purchased themselves, not with my help.
What is the point of my story?
It took 100 years for my family to get to a place where everyone is financially “ OK”  , stable.

The American dream is not and never was Free Medical for all, it was and should be the country that no matter how poor and/or uneducated you might be   you can lift yourself up by your own bootstraps and become anything you want through hard work and determination.

Seems like today, people come here , demand everything free, go to school , major in Lesbian dance theory and Leftist ideology , don’t get married, raise children out of wedlock and then complain that the rich are getting richer when they don’t put themselves in a position to make a decent living.

Duh, compound interest is mans best friend, not the dog, the older you get the more wealth you attain just by living and having a plan.

Of course trickle down works, we are a consumer society if the middle class , upper middle class and very rich are spending & creating, people have jobs , trickle down has always worked, the problem is, since the leftists and Globalists joined up a lot of the wealth has been trickling down outside the country , which is why 75 million people supported Trump.

Rodius

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2021, 05:31:30 AM »
Not so Lefty has a line of thinking about the rich and trikle down economics that has been proven wrong time and time and time again.

It is simple to prove wrong.... the rich are getting richer in the US while the poor are getting poorer.
That lovely pie you talk about may be getting bigger, (which is also stupid given we live on a finite planet.... but lets ignore that flaw of logic as well) but the rich take almost all of the extra bits leaving the poor with less per person.

Here is a little article to read to explain this in the current situation...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-25/covid-19-pandemic-exacerbating-wealth-inequality/13089128

What you call the so-called poor when I was a child, pretty much doesn’t  exist anymore.
Nobody is hungry, the problem for the poor in America is too much obesity, everyone has a cell phone and the Internet and in my area, everyone wears $150 sneakers LOL.
the worst cars used by the poorest for transportation work better, ride better and need less maintenance than the cars of the past.
Over 60% of Americans own their own homes which means there is more home ownership now then there were people in the country before WW2.
I live in a suburb of NYC and all I see are young people , who went to college, got married, choose a profession where they actually get paid, are having children and are buying homes that over time will add value and become a retirement fund.

my grandfather came here from Europe in 1918 right after WW1.

He was destitute and didn’t speak English but a distant cousin “ sponsored” him , which meant he guaranteed my grandfather wouldn’t use public assistance, medical debt, get in legal trouble, etc.
after three years of eating just enough to live, while working three jobs, he was able to bring over my grandmother and their daughter who was then 4.

He eventually opened his own business , made a decent living working 10 hours a day and raised 4 sons who went off to fight in WW2 instead of attending college.
Those brothers started as peddlers then opened their own business and my cousins and I were able to to attend college and we have mostly all done very well.

my three children are married have three children each and own their own homes in an upscale suburban area which they purchased themselves, not with my help.
What is the point of my story?
It took 100 years for my family to get to a place where everyone is financially “ OK”  , stable.

The American dream is not and never was Free Medical for all, it was and should be the country that no matter how poor and/or uneducated you might be   you can lift yourself up by your own bootstraps and become anything you want through hard work and determination.

Seems like today, people come here , demand everything free, go to school , major in Lesbian dance theory and Leftist ideology , don’t get married, raise children out of wedlock and then complain that the rich are getting richer when they don’t put themselves in a position to make a decent living.

Duh, compound interest is mans best friend, not the dog, the older you get the more wealth you attain just by living and having a plan.

Of course trickle down works, we are a consumer society if the middle class , upper middle class and very rich are spending & creating, people have jobs , trickle down has always worked, the problem is, since the leftists and Globalists joined up a lot of the wealth has been trickling down outside the country , which is why 75 million people supported Trump.

Can you please explain why the top 1% are reaping in every larger amounts of wealth and keeping it while the 99% are getting a small amount of the pie per person?

Obesity is a sign of poverty because buying good food is more expensive than buying repacked and pre-prepped food.

Buying a home is not an investment. Say that three times to let it sink in.

And a bunch of anecdotal evidence counts for nothing.

Not sure how you think nobody is hungry when there have been multiple and ongoing articles in this thread explaining how food banks are extremely stressed and it is worsening.  I am not sure you understand the meaning of nobody......

A little article to explain why trickle down is a myth.... https://www.thebalance.com/trickle-down-economics-theory-effect-does-it-work-3305572
« Last Edit: February 14, 2021, 05:39:18 AM by Rodius »

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2021, 06:39:10 AM »
LeftyLarry The story your trying to sell is the republican narrative from the 1980's. If I work hard do my job blah blah blah. Welcome to 2020 open your eyes a little. Maybe leave the comfort of your safe neighborhood once in a while. Most poor people are not poor because they are inferior human beings. Most are poor because they did not get the opportunities that you got. The misguided assumption is if they had the opportunity they would not be successful. Some wealthy people or even just well off people are great but some develop this attitude that they got to where they are "only" by working hard. That somehow no matter what their circumstances  when they started out in life they would have been successful. I think it so common because it makes it easier to justify treating people who are not as successful poorly.  You need opportunity to be able to move up as well. Increasingly the number of opportunities are shrinking.

The top 1% pretty much already have what they want giving them a little more generally means changing some digits in one of their accounts somewhere and does  little to stimulate the economy. What is Elon or Bezo going to do with an extra billion? They can already afford everything they want. So they will not recirculate it in the economy. They are too busy (with work and/or play) to do anything entrepreneurial with it. If they had some great investment opportunity they have already made it. So they add it to some stock account somewhere where it basically does nothing.

LeftyLarry

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2021, 06:59:44 AM »
Not so Lefty has a line of thinking about the rich and trikle down economics that has been proven wrong time and time and time again.

It is simple to prove wrong.... the rich are getting richer in the US while the poor are getting poorer.
That lovely pie you talk about may be getting bigger, (which is also stupid given we live on a finite planet.... but lets ignore that flaw of logic as well) but the rich take almost all of the extra bits leaving the poor with less per person.


Here is a little article to read to explain this in the current situation...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-25/covid-19-pandemic-exacerbating-wealth-inequality/13089128

What you call the so-called poor when I was a child, pretty much doesn’t  exist anymore.
Nobody is hungry, the problem for the poor in America is too much obesity, everyone has a cell phone and the Internet and in my area, everyone wears $150 sneakers LOL.
the worst cars used by the poorest for transportation work better, ride better and need less maintenance than the cars of the past.
Over 60% of Americans own their own homes which means there is more home ownership now then there were people in the country before WW2.
I live in a suburb of NYC and all I see are young people , who went to college, got married, choose a profession where they actually get paid, are having children and are buying homes that over time will add value and become a retirement fund.

my grandfather came here from Europe in 1918 right after WW1.

He was destitute and didn’t speak English but a distant cousin “ sponsored” him , which meant he guaranteed my grandfather wouldn’t use public assistance, medical debt, get in legal trouble, etc.
after three years of eating just enough to live, while working three jobs, he was able to bring over my grandmother and their daughter who was then 4.

He eventually opened his own business , made a decent living working 10 hours a day and raised 4 sons who went off to fight in WW2 instead of attending college.
Those brothers started as peddlers then opened their own business and my cousins and I were able to to attend college and we have mostly all done very well.

my three children are married have three children each and own their own homes in an upscale suburban area which they purchased themselves, not with my help.
What is the point of my story?
It took 100 years for my family to get to a place where everyone is financially “ OK”  , stable.

The American dream is not and never was Free Medical for all, it was and should be the country that no matter how poor and/or uneducated you might be   you can lift yourself up by your own bootstraps and become anything you want through hard work and determination.

Seems like today, people come here , demand everything free, go to school , major in Lesbian dance theory and Leftist ideology , don’t get married, raise children out of wedlock and then complain that the rich are getting richer when they don’t put themselves in a position to make a decent living.

Duh, compound interest is mans best friend, not the dog, the older you get the more wealth you attain just by living and having a plan.

Of course trickle down works, we are a consumer society if the middle class , upper middle class and very rich are spending & creating, people have jobs , trickle down has always worked, the problem is, since the leftists and Globalists joined up a lot of the wealth has been trickling down outside the country , which is why 75 million people supported Trump.

Can you please explain why the top 1% are reaping in every larger amounts of wealth and keeping it while the 99% are getting a small amount of the pie per person?

Obesity is a sign of poverty because buying good food is more expensive than buying repacked and pre-prepped food.

Buying a home is not an investment. Say that three times to let it sink in.

And a bunch of anecdotal evidence counts for nothing.

Not sure how you think nobody is hungry when there have been multiple and ongoing articles in this thread explaining how food banks are extremely stressed and it is worsening.  I am not sure you understand the meaning of nobody......

A little article to explain why trickle down is a myth.... https://www.thebalance.com/trickle-down-economics-theory-effect-does-it-work-3305572

Pre- Covid, nobody was hungry , obvious a once in a lifetime pandemic is a good reason for the Left to try tear down capitalism but it doesn’t hold water.

Worldwide, less people pre- Covid went to bed hungry than any time throughout history , FACT.

 I haven’t read your article yet but I can only imagine it’s like every other Leftist article written about the issue.See, the problem is, many Leftists don’t understand the difference between fact and opinion, which are very different.

the FACT is, if I and my friends who I graduated with get married and make money, we use that money to consume.
We buy houses that 40 workers collected paychecks building and 100’s  more who were employed, from lumberjacks, to lumber mills , from truck drivers, to the factory workers who made the doors and Windows, toilets and everything else that went into the building of that house and that’s before the people who made all the fixtures, kitchen equipment and everything involved, now add furnishings etc.etc.
By definition, trickle down works, the rest is fudging the numbers and content without context.

Why are the top 1% doing so well? because, before the Internet, you reached 100 people a day, now you can reach 1,000,000 a day so of course the 1% make huge amounts of money.There’s nothing evil about it because people rise up into the top 1% and fall out of it constantly .

I know young people who have invented Apps and businesses related to the internet and have made a lot of money very quickly also and then  some, things changed and they fell out of the top rung.
The top 1 or even 25% is not static, people are entering and leaving it continuously.

a lot of my friends took safe pensionable Jobs with big companies or Government related jobs , like teaching ( also to stay out of the Viet Nam War) and they didn’t get into the top 10% but others took risk, sometimes we were up and sometimes we were down but in the long run we did a lot better.Those are personal decisions, you don’t need tons of money to be happy.

hahahaha, people used to be thin and hungry but you are saying that’s not as bad as having money and eating too many Big Mac’s , that’s the 1%’s fault and a sign of real poverty , not bad eating habits.If only they had a bigger Income and ate all organic food because after all ,nobody rich is overweight.

buying a home IS an investment, you buy it with relatively little down, pay it down over 30 years with cheaper, inflated dollars , writing off the interest against taxation along the way and even if it never goes up in value, you own it free and clear when it’s paid off. to me , that’s the definition of an investment AND you get to live in it too.

I dunno , I am quite sure that if I started from zero again tomorrow and I worked hard and used my brain , I would do very well, Heck, in my area, I see immigrants come here every day, destitute , speaking only Spanish working as gardeners or laborers in construction , eventually start their own gardening or construction company, marry a woman who is a housekeeper or some other similar job and after 5-6 years they are buying homes in decent areas and raising nice families , saving money and  they think America is the greatest.



sidd

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2021, 07:41:31 AM »
The poor are fucked at least since the 70's:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1006.msg96092.html#msg96092

The posters who believe otherwise reveal a great deal about their social circles and total disconnect from the desperate lower down. I know many of that ilk personally, and their ignorance is stunning.  As i have remarked before, they float above an ocean of poverty and pay absolutely no attention. From a comment of mine couple years ago at

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1937.msg195345.html#msg195345

"educated and professional classes have no solidarity with the working classes. They don't give a shit as long as they get theirs. A few might donate to their local charities, wash their hands and call it a day. But just try to put a homeless shelter or lo income housing in their neighbourhoods, and watch the fun. Hell some of them don't even want a bus line. Where there is a busline, they dont even want shelters for the waiting passengers. The wrong kind of people might show up."
 
sidd

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2021, 02:01:51 PM »
I "liked" both LeftyLarry's post and Rodius' reply. The poor are made up of both subpopulations (I don't know the percentages, though I suspect it has been gradually shifting to Rodius' version over, basically, the course of my life).
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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2021, 02:26:52 PM »
There is much truth in saying the the most educated have no solidarity with the working class.  Those sitting in their ivory towers, live in relative luxury by comparison.  They dictate to others what they believe is best for society, which is often what is best for people like them.  They claim to know what is best for the workers, when they have not experienced a hard days work in their lifetime.  They try to teach our young adults similarly, so that we have a whole generation of college graduates that believe similarly.  Education is a key component in raising people out of poverty.  They do not necessarily need a higher education (although it helps greatly in today’s economy), but they should at least receive an adequate one to allow them to gain meaningful employment.  In many of the poor areas, public education has failed them.  That is why the parents in these districts that do care are pushing for more charter schools in their area.  Unfortunately, many cannot send their children there, and must continue in their own poor districts.  All while those sitting in comfortable chairs of higher learning in the realms of intellectual isolation blame others for their plight.

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2021, 04:43:50 PM »
Trump acquitted.
Gulty 57  Not guilty 43

America's reputation amongst those who cling to hope for the survival of democracy in the world slips down another notch.

Those in power in the world who regard democracy and accountabiluty as merely irritations to be swept aside take comfort in the verdict.

There is more than one form of collapse.
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"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
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vox_mundi

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2021, 05:28:05 PM »
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

LeftyLarry

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2021, 11:49:21 PM »
Trump acquitted.
Gulty 57  Not guilty 43

America's reputation amongst those who cling to hope for the survival of democracy in the world slips down another notch.

Those in power in the world who regard democracy and accountabiluty as merely irritations to be swept aside take comfort in the verdict.

There is more than one form of collapse.

How silly, the only people trying to end Democracy are those trying to curtail free speech and those who think an International Press , dedicated to the idea that Leftist viewpoints are all correct and must be protected at all costs is the only way to go.
They think by controlling the dialogue and crushing all opposition they are protecting Democracy, it’s exactly the opposite and it’s a shame you don’t get that.

kassy

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2021, 05:19:46 PM »
That is actually a stupid argument.
Like there is only one type of people wanting to undermine/end democracy.

PS: So your nick is about handedness i guess?
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

WildFit

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2021, 05:47:42 PM »
That is actually a stupid argument.
Like there is only one type of people wanting to undermine/end democracy.

PS: So your nick is about handedness i guess?


The usual strategy. Seeking the obvious theoretical error/mistake to discard the entire speech instead of trying to understand what the core information and core purpose of a speech is/was.

His statement is by no means stupid and to nitpick on the word "only" is as mentioned already a worthy tactic by polititians and many others around the world.

I wouldn't go that far in this forum where many well educated members are present but to someone I meet in a "street-café" I would tell to consider whether the stupidity is not being able or not being willing to understand and reply to the core message but sabotage a statement by nitpicking on the lapsuses, often caused by emotions while making a statement.

I see this over and over again and if anything bothers me at all is to see how well certain groups hide their shortcomings behind nice sounding arguments and reasoning that, once seperated from the whole, can hardly be countered because they are true.

In other words, yes he using the word "only" is not true, hence your reply is true, except that it' sonly true about that and not about the thought that he wanted to share.