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LeftyLarry

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #100 on: February 25, 2021, 10:21:19 PM »
Really it's not enough for you that over 500,000 have died? You still grudge the meager steps that were actually taken to stem the virus in the US? You might wonder how other countries had much less dead, took much greater steps including longer and stricter lockdowns, and yet hunger did not manifest itself.
The problems in the US are structural, the virus has just exposed them.

The countries that had less dead, often had less population, less density ,were more homogenous societies or like Australia, were pretty much surrounded by water and didn’t have people coming across their borders by foot or car/ truck daily during the height of the crisis.

Overall, if you add the populations of GB, France, Italy, ( Germans admittedly did pretty well with Covid ) and some of the  other  early Covid European States, until you get to a population of 330,000,000 people like the U.S. has, the death rates are pretty close, pretty much the same.

Bad early policies , like overuse of respirators and sending sick people to nursing homes in the Leftist states raised the death totals also.

I told my children at the time that if I got Covid I did not want a respirator, rather take my chances with oxygen and any drugs but being tied to a bed in a prone, static position, day after day ,where your lungs couldn’t drain , didn’t seem like a good idea to me, thankfully I didn’t get Covid, so it was moot but my kids still laugh that they thought I was crazy to demand that  but I ended up correct,( as usual).Ha Ha.

Lastly, in an attempt to hurt Trump, the Leftists were able to take terminal cancer patients and people suffering from heart failure with a life expectancy of months to maybe 2 years tops and call all  their deaths Covid deaths.

I’m vaccinated, have had two Pfizer shots and waited the two weeks and our friends in the same boat are starting to go out to Restaurants again, the worst is over.

vox_mundi

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #101 on: February 25, 2021, 11:16:33 PM »
Southern Exposure: Cold Wreaks Havoc on Aging Waterworks
https://phys.org/news/2021-02-southern-exposure-cold-wreaks-havoc.html

For years, experts have warned of the need to upgrade aging and often-neglected waterworks. Now, after icy weather cracked the region's water mains, froze equipment and left millions without service, it's clear just how much work needs to be done.

Families stood in lines for hours to get drinking water. They boiled it to make it safe to drink or brush their teeth. They scooped up snow and melted it in their bathtubs. Hospitals collected buckets of water to flush toilets.

"You don't realize how much you use water until you don't have it," said Brian Crawford, chief administrative officer for the Willis-Knighton Health System in the northwestern Louisiana city of Shreveport, where water pressure at one hospital only started returning to normal Wednesday. Tanker trucks had supplied it with water since last week.

... "These pipes are, described by the people who jump in the holes to repair them, like peanut brittle," he said. "They'll repair a pipe in one area and just sit back and wait, and sometimes they'll see a break happen almost immediately a few yards away."

The still-unfolding problems have exposed extensive vulnerabilities. Many water systems have decades-old pipes, now fragile and susceptible to breaking. White flight dropped tax revenue in some cities, and a lack of investment has caused problems to become even costlier to fix. Many systems in the South were not built with such low temperatures in mind. But with climate change projected to bring more extreme weather, problems like those seen last week could return.

A 2018 survey by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency estimated $473 billion was needed over 20 years to maintain and improve water infrastructure. In a 2020 report, the American Society of Civil Engineers said a water main breaks every two minutes on average in the U.S., and described "chronic, long-term and insufficient investment." The report warned that the "nation's public health and the economy will be at risk."

Actually, it's already happening.

The Mississippi capital of Jackson struggled to fix its damaged water grid, with thousands still facing outages. In Memphis, residents in the city of 650,000 have been told for nearly a week to boil water for three minutes if they plan to use it for drinking, cooking or brushing their teeth. Nearly 25,000 Louisianans still had water outages Thursday, and hundreds of thousands more were under boil advisories.

... Monday was the first time in a week that residents could line up for water outside of Madonna Manor, a 13-floor apartment complex for seniors and people with disabilities. People brought laundry pails, bowls, buckets and wastebaskets.

In Texas, more than 2 million remained under boil water notices Wednesday and 40 public water systems are "nonoperational," affecting 25,000 people, state officials said. ... At the height of the problems last week, at least 7 million Texans were told to boil their water.

----------------------------------------

West Side Story - America
https://www.westsidestory.com/america

I like to be in America!
O.K. by me in America!
Ev'rything free in America
For a small fee in America!

... I like the shores of America!
Comfort is yours in America!
Knobs on the doors in America,
Wall-to-wall floors in America!
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

Rodius

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #102 on: February 25, 2021, 11:44:21 PM »
Here is a map of Corona deaths.

I would suggest there is zero evidence to suggest economics, race or gender or anything else was involved in who died from Covid and who didn’t, so your concept that the poor were left to get sick and die is totally unfounded .

Yes, we live in a community zoned for 2+ acres , so we had less contact with people close to us than if we had lived in an apartment building in NYC and took the subway every morning and went into elevators but some people got sick here too.

Had zero to do with rich and poor.

https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/covid-19-deaths-by-race-ethnicity/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Race%20Categories%20Include%20Hispanic%20Individuals%22,%22sort%22:%22desc%22%7D

Zero to do with rich or poor?
I wonder how many people living on or under minimum wage could afford 2 acres of land?
You get to decide if you leave your home or not, people who work don't get that option.
If you get sick, you get treatment.... the poor in the US don't.

The virus treats everyone equally, but the conditions people live in and the treatments they get is extremely different..... and most of those differences are based on wealth.

Is that not obvious to you?

vox_mundi

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #103 on: February 26, 2021, 12:39:46 AM »
60 Fortune 500 Companies Avoided All Federal Income Tax in 2018 Under New Tax Law
https://itep.org/60-fortune-500-companies-avoided-all-federal-income-tax-in-2018-under-new-tax-law/

An in-depth analysis of Fortune 500 companies’ financial filings finds that at least 60 of the nation’s biggest corporations didn’t pay a dime in federal income taxes in 2018 on a collective $79 billion in profits, the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy said today.

If these companies paid the statutory 21 percent federal tax rate, they would owe $16.4 billion in federal income taxes. Instead, they collectively received $4.3 billion in rebates.

http://www.itep.org/notadime

https://itep.org/corporate-tax-avoidance-in-the-first-year-of-the-trump-tax-law/

---------------------------------------
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #104 on: February 26, 2021, 02:15:46 AM »
60 Fortune 500 Companies Avoided All Federal Income Tax in 2018 Under New Tax Law
https://itep.org/60-fortune-500-companies-avoided-all-federal-income-tax-in-2018-under-new-tax-law/

An in-depth analysis of Fortune 500 companies’ financial filings finds that at least 60 of the nation’s biggest corporations didn’t pay a dime in federal income taxes in 2018 on a collective $79 billion in profits, the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy said today.

If these companies paid the statutory 21 percent federal tax rate, they would owe $16.4 billion in federal income taxes. Instead, they collectively received $4.3 billion in rebates.

http://www.itep.org/notadime

https://itep.org/corporate-tax-avoidance-in-the-first-year-of-the-trump-tax-law/

---------------------------------------
In the US  we have more welfare for the rich then the poor.

longwalks1

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #105 on: February 26, 2021, 03:24:36 AM »
Well, I finally came back here.   

It was not in the forefront of my brain, but I had in the background it appears that Lefty might not be right handed.  And oh yes, a minor cause celebre, "left handed", several worthless posts.  Yes, we all can stumble into semantic traps.  I ponder, was it set up as a trap; but then as the Buddha taught about the 20 questions about the arrow - it really does not matter. 

Larry, I did not see any backing away from your assertions about children who are learning a new language or any thoughts about how to aid and assist.  My assertions about the effectiveness of immersive schools were not backed up by any journals or studies, possibly mere Baconian empircisim, but a culturally shared empiricism.   However as always, pattern deduction can weed out some of the false positives of empiricism.  And of course the concept of increased plasticity in the developing brain  would lend some credence to immersive language as a valid tool. 

So, I return to my question, are you denigrating children with your post.  And to go further about the particular words, only you can ask yourself if the thought expressed about children revealed a racist ligament or tendon in yourself.   

Tom M.   I was somewhat shocked of the old canard  of infant mortality being influenced  by selection processes and /or technological availability Canada versus usOfa.   I have only heard that hackneyed crap used in comparing Cuba infant mortality rates versus usOfa.   Kindly research before blindly keyboarding it in. 

In the 2000's a previous co-worker of mine had surgery performed on her child in utero in Canada.   There are technological gaps in regions and countries world wide, one glaring example in Manitoba - Canada was the fact that for over a decade you had to fly to Saskatchewan for PET (positron emission tomagraphy).   As previous, it is only empiricism about that one instance but it is a strike against the hackneyed canard of selection process influencing treatment and mortality.   When you have to get on a plane to fly to SK or Hogtown or wherever, the flight is free.   Her son will be starting college in a bit, after over a dozen operations post utero.   

500K deaths..   Reminds me of a skit I was in with Jeremy Berrigan and Anathoth.   Jeremy was Virgil, I was Dante, and we were in Hell at "Hells Catholic Worker" where every day placarding happened with posters stating "IT'S TOO DAMN HOT"  in front of HellCentral.  And numerous of the worst Popes in history were in residence at Hells CW, after all, even the most vile reprobates deserve shelter, but their mortal sins were discussed.   And then one woman was pointed out, she was the worst sinner in hell supposedly.  And  narrator repeated Leslie Stah's question and the answer.   

"Was it worth 500,000 children to die?"   "Yes, we thought it worth the cost."   500,000 dead Iraqi children is definitely supposed to be part of the seamless garment philosophy.   Madelaine A. is not there,      yet.

To be blunt, I do not see the relevance of this thread if it is about philosophical matters of moral, spiritual, cultural collapse.   If it was about failing infrastructure, semi a la "Places becoming less livable." the thread might have some value.  The conversation seems akin to neither parallel lines not meeting nor skew lines - but skew lines in different dimensions, but I might be exaggerating.

I will not be visiting the thread in the future. 

Semantics.   Fighting.    I used to have cordial phone conversations with Elizabeth McAllister, I picked up Liz and Phil Berrigan at the airport and we went to eat before I delivered them to where they would stay.  I have sheltered the homeless and been arrested  (and pain compliance) with Carmen Trotta.   They are both presently incarcerated.     Google them if you wish.   For me fighting is about "Organize, organize , organize, and when / if  education, letter writing, etc of the the Kingian steps does not suceed then there is civil disobedience.  Carmen used to fast 10 days a year in front of the UN for the children of Yemen. The true metric  of any discussion about the collapse of the usOfa is about the children.   Otherwise it is mere words flying back and forth.   

The only thing else I have to say about fight is what I learned from Muslims while sheltering the homeless.   "The only true Jihad is within your heart."   

Satyagraha is the true fight.   

And now a personal denouement to this thread for myself.   You can ask 100 Canadians what they would change about their systems (each province has different flavours) and all would have ideas.    You could ask them if they wanted  a USA style health care system, I believe it would a near unanimous NO.  I have spent hours with a 75 y.o ish mentally challenged person in a bed in a hallway in a hospital, 2005 waiting to be admitted over the course of 2 days.   Definitely a negative, but the person in front was a 80 y.o Mennonite, there was an equality for all in the line.   The doctors offices decor is older and faded.   With my good non-verbal friend T. when she busted her hip, I was with her in her room many shifts with three other women on the mend from hips or knees.   You do not see a room for 4 often in the US.   It was and possibly still is true that you wait longer for hips and knees in Canada versus the US.   Even factoring out the fact of the longer waits for people with SSI, crap insurance, etc. etc.   People do fly down to Mayo Clinics in the US for expedited Chemo-therapy and knee replacement at a cost.  Everyone in Canada knows that.  Let us not forget the other part of that equation, the people in the US who used to get meds in the mail from Canada. The people who cross the border to get meds in Mexico.   The people in the US who go to Mexico for elective surgeries and also around  "cosmetic" surgery and combine it as a vacation.

 Taiwan and Germany and Canada study each others health care systems.  Study in the US of what works around the world appears to me to be muted and minimal. 

So to add another metric to measure collapse, let me add - equality.   I bid you adieu. 


The Walrus

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #106 on: February 26, 2021, 08:33:26 PM »
60 Fortune 500 Companies Avoided All Federal Income Tax in 2018 Under New Tax Law
https://itep.org/60-fortune-500-companies-avoided-all-federal-income-tax-in-2018-under-new-tax-law/

An in-depth analysis of Fortune 500 companies’ financial filings finds that at least 60 of the nation’s biggest corporations didn’t pay a dime in federal income taxes in 2018 on a collective $79 billion in profits, the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy said today.

If these companies paid the statutory 21 percent federal tax rate, they would owe $16.4 billion in federal income taxes. Instead, they collectively received $4.3 billion in rebates.

http://www.itep.org/notadime

https://itep.org/corporate-tax-avoidance-in-the-first-year-of-the-trump-tax-law/

---------------------------------------
In the US  we have more welfare for the rich then the poor.

Funny how the same people promoting federal tax credits for certain investments are the same people that complain when corporations take them.  Many of these corporations took tax credits for hiring disadvantaged workers or building in designated “enterprise zone.”  Other credits include those for green energy and COVID costs for 2020. 

It would seem fairer to eliminate all these credits, and charge a flat rate.  But then, politicians would not be able to pander to their favorite corporate donors.

LeftyLarry

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #107 on: February 27, 2021, 08:10:17 PM »
Well, I finally came back here.   

It was not in the forefront of my brain, but I had in the background it appears that Lefty might not be right handed.  And oh yes, a minor cause celebre, "left handed", several worthless posts.  Yes, we all can stumble into semantic traps.  I ponder, was it set up as a trap; but then as the Buddha taught about the 20 questions about the arrow - it really does not matter. 

Larry, I did not see any backing away from your assertions about children who are learning a new language or any thoughts about how to aid and assist.  My assertions about the effectiveness of immersive schools were not backed up by any journals or studies, possibly mere Baconian empircisim, but a culturally shared empiricism.   However as always, pattern deduction can weed out some of the false positives of empiricism.  And of course the concept of increased plasticity in the developing brain  would lend some credence to immersive language as a valid tool. 

So, I return to my question, are you denigrating children with your post.  And to go further about the particular words, only you can ask yourself if the thought expressed about children revealed a racist ligament or tendon in yourself.   

Tom M.   I was somewhat shocked of the old canard  of infant mortality being influenced  by selection processes and /or technological availability Canada versus usOfa.   I have only heard that hackneyed crap used in comparing Cuba infant mortality rates versus usOfa.   Kindly research before blindly keyboarding it in. 

In the 2000's a previous co-worker of mine had surgery performed on her child in utero in Canada.   There are technological gaps in regions and countries world wide, one glaring example in Manitoba - Canada was the fact that for over a decade you had to fly to Saskatchewan for PET (positron emission tomagraphy).   As previous, it is only empiricism about that one instance but it is a strike against the hackneyed canard of selection process influencing treatment and mortality.   When you have to get on a plane to fly to SK or Hogtown or wherever, the flight is free.   Her son will be starting college in a bit, after over a dozen operations post utero.   

500K deaths..   Reminds me of a skit I was in with Jeremy Berrigan and Anathoth.   Jeremy was Virgil, I was Dante, and we were in Hell at "Hells Catholic Worker" where every day placarding happened with posters stating "IT'S TOO DAMN HOT"  in front of HellCentral.  And numerous of the worst Popes in history were in residence at Hells CW, after all, even the most vile reprobates deserve shelter, but their mortal sins were discussed.   And then one woman was pointed out, she was the worst sinner in hell supposedly.  And  narrator repeated Leslie Stah's question and the answer.   

"Was it worth 500,000 children to die?"   "Yes, we thought it worth the cost."   500,000 dead Iraqi children is definitely supposed to be part of the seamless garment philosophy.   Madelaine A. is not there,      yet.

To be blunt, I do not see the relevance of this thread if it is about philosophical matters of moral, spiritual, cultural collapse.   If it was about failing infrastructure, semi a la "Places becoming less livable." the thread might have some value.  The conversation seems akin to neither parallel lines not meeting nor skew lines - but skew lines in different dimensions, but I might be exaggerating.

I will not be visiting the thread in the future. 

Semantics.   Fighting.    I used to have cordial phone conversations with Elizabeth McAllister, I picked up Liz and Phil Berrigan at the airport and we went to eat before I delivered them to where they would stay.  I have sheltered the homeless and been arrested  (and pain compliance) with Carmen Trotta.   They are both presently incarcerated.     Google them if you wish.   For me fighting is about "Organize, organize , organize, and when / if  education, letter writing, etc of the the Kingian steps does not suceed then there is civil disobedience.  Carmen used to fast 10 days a year in front of the UN for the children of Yemen. The true metric  of any discussion about the collapse of the usOfa is about the children.   Otherwise it is mere words flying back and forth.   

The only thing else I have to say about fight is what I learned from Muslims while sheltering the homeless.   "The only true Jihad is within your heart."   

Satyagraha is the true fight.   

And now a personal denouement to this thread for myself.   You can ask 100 Canadians what they would change about their systems (each province has different flavours) and all would have ideas.    You could ask them if they wanted  a USA style health care system, I believe it would a near unanimous NO.  I have spent hours with a 75 y.o ish mentally challenged person in a bed in a hallway in a hospital, 2005 waiting to be admitted over the course of 2 days.   Definitely a negative, but the person in front was a 80 y.o Mennonite, there was an equality for all in the line.   The doctors offices decor is older and faded.   With my good non-verbal friend T. when she busted her hip, I was with her in her room many shifts with three other women on the mend from hips or knees.   You do not see a room for 4 often in the US.   It was and possibly still is true that you wait longer for hips and knees in Canada versus the US.   Even factoring out the fact of the longer waits for people with SSI, crap insurance, etc. etc.   People do fly down to Mayo Clinics in the US for expedited Chemo-therapy and knee replacement at a cost.  Everyone in Canada knows that.  Let us not forget the other part of that equation, the people in the US who used to get meds in the mail from Canada. The people who cross the border to get meds in Mexico.   The people in the US who go to Mexico for elective surgeries and also around  "cosmetic" surgery and combine it as a vacation.

 Taiwan and Germany and Canada study each others health care systems.  Study in the US of what works around the world appears to me to be muted and minimal. 

So to add another metric to measure collapse, let me add - equality.   I bid you adieu.

I’m not playing or buying into your racist game , I treat everyone the same, based on their character and how they treat me.
I know few Black people who wake up in the morning every day and say, “ how do I make the lives of poor white children better, not on their radar, does that make them racist?
I see nothing wrong with a mother of an Irish Catholic girl preferring her daughter to marry an Irish Catholic man and to continue a tradition that might have been in that family for 100 generations.
same deal with my Jewish friends who often prefer their sons or daughters to marry someone in the same religion to continue their 3,000 year tradition .
Many of you Leftists now consider that a form of racism, I personally, do not.
Everyone is entitled to love themselves, their race and their traditions, Blacks and Hispanics certainly do, it’s pretty much only Leftist white who hate themselves.

They were talking about the education system being broken in the U.S., I suggested that it wasn’t, especially in the private and charter Schools and in areas where the Left hasn’t fully taken control of the school system.
My own children did great in American schools, my daughter scored 800 English-780 Math on her Sats and both my sons weren’t that far behind.

my suggestion is that many’s schools where we live that used to have 100% high scores on the tests, often now have 85% high scores and are rated lower and the difference now isn’t that the schools have gotten worse, the lower scores mostly come from immigrant children who are from  non English speaking households , with parents or parent who have had little education themselves, giving those children a step uphill to climb .

If that is racist in the Leftists warped view of the world, so be it but we do everything we possibly can to help these people, including free English classes at our libraries , often taught by well to do white people who are trying to some good.

I will repeat again, the problems with SOME of America’s schools are all about Leftist policies of the Teachers Union and administrators in the areas where the local parents have little input or control.

when some Leftists are brain dead enough to suggest that homework is racist because white children have parents at home who help them complete it, well, there’s nothing else to say on the issue.

you run from those schools where that is their agenda, where teaching about transgender,  gay,  White privilege etc is more important than Math and science and you find private or charter schools and you sacrifice to get your kids in and have them educated.

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #108 on: February 28, 2021, 01:02:13 AM »
60 Fortune 500 Companies Avoided All Federal Income Tax in 2018 Under New Tax Law
https://itep.org/60-fortune-500-companies-avoided-all-federal-income-tax-in-2018-under-new-tax-law/

An in-depth analysis of Fortune 500 companies’ financial filings finds that at least 60 of the nation’s biggest corporations didn’t pay a dime in federal income taxes in 2018 on a collective $79 billion in profits, the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy said today.

If these companies paid the statutory 21 percent federal tax rate, they would owe $16.4 billion in federal income taxes. Instead, they collectively received $4.3 billion in rebates.

http://www.itep.org/notadime

https://itep.org/corporate-tax-avoidance-in-the-first-year-of-the-trump-tax-law/

---------------------------------------
In the US  we have more welfare for the rich then the poor.

Funny how the same people promoting federal tax credits for certain investments are the same people that complain when corporations take them.  Many of these corporations took tax credits for hiring disadvantaged workers or building in designated “enterprise zone.”  Other credits include those for green energy and COVID costs for 2020. 

It would seem fairer to eliminate all these credits, and charge a flat rate.  But then, politicians would not be able to pander to their favorite corporate donors.
I have Ideals but that does not mean I am blinded to how the world is currently structured. Ideally a progressive tax structure with full pollution costs attached to the polluter would be better. But in a democracy you can not get everything you want. Often it is hard to get anything. Trying to claim some hypocracy here is a plea for me to be an idealist and to accomplish nothing. I choose to support better over worse. You can choose to be an idealist if you want. 

Villabolo

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #109 on: February 28, 2021, 08:33:58 PM »
Quote
I remember when your political beliefs  weren’t a reason to tell someone you wouldn’t do business with them, or hire them or let them play with your children.Everyone agreed to disagree and asked what was for dinner.
To me, that was a healthier climate , what the cancel culture is about is imposing their will on people through fear and terror when they can’t win the argument, can’t win the debate.
I thought that America was a better one when nobody asked you who you voted for and where the media took only a slightly Leftist position but actually reported both sides of every event and let the reader or viewer decide for themselves.
Of course, that’s not in the Leftist playbook , there are so many of their positions that they can’t justify with common sense or win a debate with that demand to set the topic and don’t allow anyone’s else’s opinion to be heard and when it’s heard, the speaker MUST be punished.
It’s sort of how the Brown Shirts started against the Jews in Germany.
First make up half truths, Content without context as I call it, then demonize, ban and bar and then eventually dehumanize.
yes, I guess when you control thought through fear and manipulation , you can win  but I wonder if it’s Something  to be really proud about, especially, when in the end, the left has always eaten its own.

35 years of hate radio, starting with Rush Limbaugh and a thousand and one 'shock jocks'. 25 years of hate television, starting with Fox News. An entire generation of conservatives being raised in that toxic environment and you expect what?

Rush Limbaugh's mockery of the homeless. Fox News' Bill O'Reilly yelling at his guests telling them to "shut up". Smell thy own Lefty.

Liberals, 'the left', have been in a rage throughout the past few decades due to the actions of the right. It was an impotent rage since the media did not express the wide range of issues they had. Everything with them was a sound bite which is a useless way of communication.

For instance, police executions of African Americans. It had been common, throughout the generations before the cell phone age, but the media did not give it the coverage it deserved because there was no video evidence. Now there are more examples than could be memorized. Except for Black people who have been stewing in this for decades.

Another example are the Civil War monuments in the southern states that had been there for a hundred years. How insulting would that be to you, if you were black, seeing those monuments every day on your way to work? Those monuments would be the equivalent of modern day Germany deciding to have monuments of Hitler's generals. Yet the right wing cries about their 'cultural' symbols being erased.

Now this rage has evolved into BLM, 'cancel culture' and, more seriously and justifiably in my opinion, the NFAC.

To add insult to injury, Tucker Carlson calls into question the very existence of white supremacy. He says that there are probably less white supremacists in the United States than could fit in a sport stadium.

The Walrus

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #110 on: February 28, 2021, 09:10:48 PM »
60 Fortune 500 Companies Avoided All Federal Income Tax in 2018 Under New Tax Law
https://itep.org/60-fortune-500-companies-avoided-all-federal-income-tax-in-2018-under-new-tax-law/

An in-depth analysis of Fortune 500 companies’ financial filings finds that at least 60 of the nation’s biggest corporations didn’t pay a dime in federal income taxes in 2018 on a collective $79 billion in profits, the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy said today.

If these companies paid the statutory 21 percent federal tax rate, they would owe $16.4 billion in federal income taxes. Instead, they collectively received $4.3 billion in rebates.

http://www.itep.org/notadime

https://itep.org/corporate-tax-avoidance-in-the-first-year-of-the-trump-tax-law/

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In the US  we have more welfare for the rich then the poor.

Funny how the same people promoting federal tax credits for certain investments are the same people that complain when corporations take them.  Many of these corporations took tax credits for hiring disadvantaged workers or building in designated “enterprise zone.”  Other credits include those for green energy and COVID costs for 2020. 

It would seem fairer to eliminate all these credits, and charge a flat rate.  But then, politicians would not be able to pander to their favorite corporate donors.
I have Ideals but that does not mean I am blinded to how the world is currently structured. Ideally a progressive tax structure with full pollution costs attached to the polluter would be better. But in a democracy you can not get everything you want. Often it is hard to get anything. Trying to claim some hypocracy here is a plea for me to be an idealist and to accomplish nothing. I choose to support better over worse. You can choose to be an idealist if you want.

I was not calling you hypothetical or idealistic, unless you fall into the category I outlined in my first sentence.  Every time the government enacts these type of benefits, someone is there to take advantage. 

LeftyLarry

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #111 on: February 28, 2021, 09:19:39 PM »
Quote
I remember when your political beliefs  weren’t a reason to tell someone you wouldn’t do business with them, or hire them or let them play with your children.Everyone agreed to disagree and asked what was for dinner.
To me, that was a healthier climate , what the cancel culture is about is imposing their will on people through fear and terror when they can’t win the argument, can’t win the debate.
I thought that America was a better one when nobody asked you who you voted for and where the media took only a slightly Leftist position but actually reported both sides of every event and let the reader or viewer decide for themselves.
Of course, that’s not in the Leftist playbook , there are so many of their positions that they can’t justify with common sense or win a debate with that demand to set the topic and don’t allow anyone’s else’s opinion to be heard and when it’s heard, the speaker MUST be punished.
It’s sort of how the Brown Shirts started against the Jews in Germany.
First make up half truths, Content without context as I call it, then demonize, ban and bar and then eventually dehumanize.
yes, I guess when you control thought through fear and manipulation , you can win  but I wonder if it’s Something  to be really proud about, especially, when in the end, the left has always eaten its own.

35 years of hate radio, starting with Rush Limbaugh and a thousand and one 'shock jocks'. 25 years of hate television, starting with Fox News. An entire generation of conservatives being raised in that toxic environment and you expect what?

Rush Limbaugh's mockery of the homeless. Fox News' Bill O'Reilly yelling at his guests telling them to "shut up". Smell thy own Lefty.

Liberals, 'the left', have been in a rage throughout the past few decades due to the actions of the right. It was an impotent rage since the media did not express the wide range of issues they had. Everything with them was a sound bite which is a useless way of communication.

For instance, police executions of African Americans. It had been common, throughout the generations before the cell phone age, but the media did not give it the coverage it deserved because there was no video evidence. Now there are more examples than could be memorized. Except for Black people who have been stewing in this for decades.

Another example are the Civil War monuments in the southern states that had been there for a hundred years. How insulting would that be to you, if you were black, seeing those monuments every day on your way to work? Those monuments would be the equivalent of modern day Germany deciding to have monuments of Hitler's generals. Yet the right wing cries about their 'cultural' symbols being erased.

Now this rage has evolved into BLM, 'cancel culture' and, more seriously and justifiably in my opinion, the NFAC.

To add insult to injury, Tucker Carlson calls into question the very existence of white supremacy. He says that there are probably less white supremacists in the United States than could fit in a sport stadium.


All Nonsense, leftist Content with no context

here’s a graph as to who and how many people are being executed by police.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

If there is a problem with death by police, it surely isn’t because an overwhelming amount of Black people have been shot by police as per anyone else.

African- Americans only make up 13.5ish % of the population, however they commit 50% of all the violent crimes and make up an even larger percentage of those who resist arrest , so statistically speaking Africa- Americans are under represented in terms of execution by police.

doesn’t stop you Leftists from denying the truth though, does it?

Know the story of the Emperors new clothes? Thats what  BLM was to the white Liberals involved .LOL

Rush Limbaugh was on the radio 3 hours per day for 30 years and the Leftists struggle to find a few out of context  m few second sound bites, sine said in jest, that they use to suggest that the man was all about HATE when it’s the Left who are the haters and Rush was a terrific guy, who wanted everyone to succeed.

civil War monuments are a difficult situation, I admit it.

On the one hand, you are 100% correct, if Jews saw symbols of Naziism in front of their Capitol buildings they would probably freak out, however this is NOT the exact same situation.

if I remember correctly 90% of the southerners who fought in the Civil War were not slave owners, only the wealthy owned slaves and despite how you would like to portray them as all being horrible people  , they werent there giving their lives, 45,000 died in one battle at Gettysburg to defend Slavery, they were there to defend their  States rights .

now, you and I might disagree about this but Lincoln allowed the defeated South ( before his untimely , ill advised assassination, that opened the door to the carpetbaggers and the real destruction of the South) to erect monuments and continue to respect graduates and Generals from Places like West Point and yes guys like Robert E Lee who was the actual Headmaster at West Point.

This  was never a problem until the hard Left decided to make it one , growing up, I never heard any Black man complain about Civil War monuments , just Civil  Rights, this, like Leftists Whites being insulted by teams like Florida State  being called “Seminoles “ forcing the Seminoles tribe to sue to allow FLA  ST U to keep the name,LOL   is just an attempt to erase anything that has anything to do with our past history, because our past history was pretty much created by White men, which is why it must be demeaned and destroyed.

Now, if African- Americans want to hate Stonewall Jackson, Robert E Lee and the others because they think those soldiers placed Black people in gas chambers and killed their children just because they were Black and wanted them all wiped off from the face of the earth, like the Nazis did with the Jews and the Southern monuments remind them of that, I won’t fight them but you and I both know it’s not about that, it’s about power ,about rewriting history.

You have been sold a Bill of goods and it is destroying all your futures but sadly, you have been so indoctrinated , it’s all you know.


Rodius

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #112 on: February 28, 2021, 11:33:23 PM »
Well, I finally came back here.   

It was not in the forefront of my brain, but I had in the background it appears that Lefty might not be right handed.  And oh yes, a minor cause celebre, "left handed", several worthless posts.  Yes, we all can stumble into semantic traps.  I ponder, was it set up as a trap; but then as the Buddha taught about the 20 questions about the arrow - it really does not matter. 

Larry, I did not see any backing away from your assertions about children who are learning a new language or any thoughts about how to aid and assist.  My assertions about the effectiveness of immersive schools were not backed up by any journals or studies, possibly mere Baconian empircisim, but a culturally shared empiricism.   However as always, pattern deduction can weed out some of the false positives of empiricism.  And of course the concept of increased plasticity in the developing brain  would lend some credence to immersive language as a valid tool. 

So, I return to my question, are you denigrating children with your post.  And to go further about the particular words, only you can ask yourself if the thought expressed about children revealed a racist ligament or tendon in yourself.   

Tom M.   I was somewhat shocked of the old canard  of infant mortality being influenced  by selection processes and /or technological availability Canada versus usOfa.   I have only heard that hackneyed crap used in comparing Cuba infant mortality rates versus usOfa.   Kindly research before blindly keyboarding it in. 

In the 2000's a previous co-worker of mine had surgery performed on her child in utero in Canada.   There are technological gaps in regions and countries world wide, one glaring example in Manitoba - Canada was the fact that for over a decade you had to fly to Saskatchewan for PET (positron emission tomagraphy).   As previous, it is only empiricism about that one instance but it is a strike against the hackneyed canard of selection process influencing treatment and mortality.   When you have to get on a plane to fly to SK or Hogtown or wherever, the flight is free.   Her son will be starting college in a bit, after over a dozen operations post utero.   

500K deaths..   Reminds me of a skit I was in with Jeremy Berrigan and Anathoth.   Jeremy was Virgil, I was Dante, and we were in Hell at "Hells Catholic Worker" where every day placarding happened with posters stating "IT'S TOO DAMN HOT"  in front of HellCentral.  And numerous of the worst Popes in history were in residence at Hells CW, after all, even the most vile reprobates deserve shelter, but their mortal sins were discussed.   And then one woman was pointed out, she was the worst sinner in hell supposedly.  And  narrator repeated Leslie Stah's question and the answer.   

"Was it worth 500,000 children to die?"   "Yes, we thought it worth the cost."   500,000 dead Iraqi children is definitely supposed to be part of the seamless garment philosophy.   Madelaine A. is not there,      yet.

To be blunt, I do not see the relevance of this thread if it is about philosophical matters of moral, spiritual, cultural collapse.   If it was about failing infrastructure, semi a la "Places becoming less livable." the thread might have some value.  The conversation seems akin to neither parallel lines not meeting nor skew lines - but skew lines in different dimensions, but I might be exaggerating.

I will not be visiting the thread in the future. 

Semantics.   Fighting.    I used to have cordial phone conversations with Elizabeth McAllister, I picked up Liz and Phil Berrigan at the airport and we went to eat before I delivered them to where they would stay.  I have sheltered the homeless and been arrested  (and pain compliance) with Carmen Trotta.   They are both presently incarcerated.     Google them if you wish.   For me fighting is about "Organize, organize , organize, and when / if  education, letter writing, etc of the the Kingian steps does not suceed then there is civil disobedience.  Carmen used to fast 10 days a year in front of the UN for the children of Yemen. The true metric  of any discussion about the collapse of the usOfa is about the children.   Otherwise it is mere words flying back and forth.   

The only thing else I have to say about fight is what I learned from Muslims while sheltering the homeless.   "The only true Jihad is within your heart."   

Satyagraha is the true fight.   

And now a personal denouement to this thread for myself.   You can ask 100 Canadians what they would change about their systems (each province has different flavours) and all would have ideas.    You could ask them if they wanted  a USA style health care system, I believe it would a near unanimous NO.  I have spent hours with a 75 y.o ish mentally challenged person in a bed in a hallway in a hospital, 2005 waiting to be admitted over the course of 2 days.   Definitely a negative, but the person in front was a 80 y.o Mennonite, there was an equality for all in the line.   The doctors offices decor is older and faded.   With my good non-verbal friend T. when she busted her hip, I was with her in her room many shifts with three other women on the mend from hips or knees.   You do not see a room for 4 often in the US.   It was and possibly still is true that you wait longer for hips and knees in Canada versus the US.   Even factoring out the fact of the longer waits for people with SSI, crap insurance, etc. etc.   People do fly down to Mayo Clinics in the US for expedited Chemo-therapy and knee replacement at a cost.  Everyone in Canada knows that.  Let us not forget the other part of that equation, the people in the US who used to get meds in the mail from Canada. The people who cross the border to get meds in Mexico.   The people in the US who go to Mexico for elective surgeries and also around  "cosmetic" surgery and combine it as a vacation.

 Taiwan and Germany and Canada study each others health care systems.  Study in the US of what works around the world appears to me to be muted and minimal. 

So to add another metric to measure collapse, let me add - equality.   I bid you adieu.

I’m not playing or buying into your racist game , I treat everyone the same, based on their character and how they treat me.
I know few Black people who wake up in the morning every day and say, “ how do I make the lives of poor white children better, not on their radar, does that make them racist?
I see nothing wrong with a mother of an Irish Catholic girl preferring her daughter to marry an Irish Catholic man and to continue a tradition that might have been in that family for 100 generations.
same deal with my Jewish friends who often prefer their sons or daughters to marry someone in the same religion to continue their 3,000 year tradition .
Many of you Leftists now consider that a form of racism, I personally, do not.
Everyone is entitled to love themselves, their race and their traditions, Blacks and Hispanics certainly do, it’s pretty much only Leftist white who hate themselves.

They were talking about the education system being broken in the U.S., I suggested that it wasn’t, especially in the private and charter Schools and in areas where the Left hasn’t fully taken control of the school system.
My own children did great in American schools, my daughter scored 800 English-780 Math on her Sats and both my sons weren’t that far behind.

my suggestion is that many’s schools where we live that used to have 100% high scores on the tests, often now have 85% high scores and are rated lower and the difference now isn’t that the schools have gotten worse, the lower scores mostly come from immigrant children who are from  non English speaking households , with parents or parent who have had little education themselves, giving those children a step uphill to climb .

If that is racist in the Leftists warped view of the world, so be it but we do everything we possibly can to help these people, including free English classes at our libraries , often taught by well to do white people who are trying to some good.

I will repeat again, the problems with SOME of America’s schools are all about Leftist policies of the Teachers Union and administrators in the areas where the local parents have little input or control.

when some Leftists are brain dead enough to suggest that homework is racist because white children have parents at home who help them complete it, well, there’s nothing else to say on the issue.

you run from those schools where that is their agenda, where teaching about transgender,  gay,  White privilege etc is more important than Math and science and you find private or charter schools and you sacrifice to get your kids in and have them educated.

The fact that you think racism is a basic "I treat everyone the same" screams out rather loudly that you have almost no understanding of what is happening in terms of racism.

Look up systemic racism.
Read some history.... not just the last few decades, but right back to how the US was created and ask yourself who did the labor for free.
Even in the 60s the US STILL had color based transport and locations.
This is a diabolical history against non-white people..... and if you honestly think that the damage done over the last two centuries can be wiped clean in a matter of decades you are seriously deluded.

Racism is the US is bad, really bad, and the way you think of it is part of why it is so bad. You are absolutely part of the problem because you dont/wont/refuse to see the situation for what it is.

You sit there and think that if everyone was just nice to each other the problem would go away.

The way I see the situation in the US in regards to racism and politics is this..... the political structure, and it doesn't matter which party is running the game, is against non-white people. Both major parties undermine progress in major ways. It really doesn't matter which side we talk about, they both maintain the systemic racism in the US.... they just do it different ways.

If you want an explanation of system racism, read about it.
Somehow I suspect you will just ignore this post and keep pretending you are right.... and that is why the problem in the US will remain. Your point of view is extremely simplistic and you refuse to open your eyes to what is actually happening and you refuse to understand that the lines of thinking you have are wrong in terms of fixing racism in the US.

So many people, White people for the most part, have zero concept of what the problem of racism is in the country. What you wrote here is the problem, it isn't non-white people, it isn't how you think you treat everyone equally (you don't, by the way, with your line of thinking you really don't treat people equally), it isn't about tweaking the system.
It is about addressing the history, it is about changing the political landscape, it is about reducing the extremes of wealth and sharing the resources to a point where everyone has shelter, security and food.
It is about equal, free access to education and health.
It is addressing the imbalance of incararation.
But it wont happen without some form of civil war..... it could be avoided but that would mean people like you opening your eyes to see the problem and for the wealthy and powerful to be willing to stop being so extremely wealthy and powerful.

Villabolo

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #113 on: March 02, 2021, 04:40:52 PM »

"This  was never a problem until the hard Left decided to make it one , growing up, I never heard any Black man complain about Civil War monuments , just Civil  Rights, this, like Leftists Whites being insulted by teams like Florida State  being called “Seminoles “ forcing the Seminoles tribe to sue to allow FLA  ST U to keep the name,LOL   is just an attempt to erase anything that has anything to do with our past history, because our past history was pretty much created by White men, which is why it must be demeaned and destroyed."

You never heard a black man complain about the civil war monuments? That's probably because you don't speak to any black men at length. I'm sure that they had those monuments in the back of their minds but were talking about what stood out more in the present. Once you get your civil rights then you go after those monuments.

<snip>

"African- Americans only make up 13.5ish % of the population, however they commit 50% of all the violent crimes and make up an even larger percentage of those who resist arrest , so statistically speaking Africa- Americans are under represented in terms of execution by police".

The reason for the disproportionate crime rate is poverty. Poverty will give any race or group of people a higher rime rate.

"Rush Limbaugh was on the radio 3 hours per day for 30 years and the Leftists struggle to find a few out of context  m few second sound bites, sine said in jest, that they use to suggest that the man was all about HATE when it’s the Left who are the haters and Rush was a terrific guy, who wanted everyone to succeed."

If you listen to Rush Limbaugh, as I have, you know how despicable the man is. If you don't then your perception of people is skewed. I could tell you're an ideologue just from that.

"if I remember correctly 90% of the southerners who fought in the Civil War were not slave owners, only the wealthy owned slaves and despite how you would like to portray them as all being horrible people  , they werent there giving their lives, 45,000 died in one battle at Gettysburg to defend Slavery, they were there to defend their  States rights ."

The wealthy never fight in any war. It is the poor and lower middle class who do. The people who actually fight wars are sold a bill of goods - any excuse to make them believe that the war is worth fighting for.

As far as their fighting for their 'country' is concerned you can make an analogy with WWII. The Nazis also had their reasons for fighting a war. More so than the South since they had been oppressed by the rest of Europe prior to that (Their fault though, for what they did in WWI.). Were most of these Nazis horrible people or were they just like everyone else?

Your statement about 'state rights' is a common argument from apologists for the civil war. Never do they give a meaningful answer as to which state rights were being violated by the North. What were the rights that the North was violating? Did the South want to print their own money? Was the North trying to eliminate their cuisine? Which rights were being violated?

The only presumed state right that was being violated was their so called 'right' to own slaves.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 04:58:31 PM by Villabolo »

The Walrus

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #114 on: March 02, 2021, 07:46:06 PM »
Villabolo, I agreed with everything you said, until the end.  Yes, one of the rights, was the right to own slaves - and it was a major factor.  However, there were several others.  One of the biggest dividing issues was one of federal tariffs, which protected northern manufacturing at the expense of the southerners.  Indeed, South Carolina threatened to secede thirty years prior over these tariffs, until a compromise was reached (the Boston tea party was a classic example of the clash between states' rights and federal authority).  Law enforcement was another hot button issue.  Many states (in both the North and South) wanted the state laws and courts to have jurisdiction within the borders of each state.  Federal law would be restricted to interstate issues.

Yes, slavery was the main issue, as it permeated every part of the economy and culture of the South.  Anyone saying another issue was more important, is deluding themselves.  As a final note, South Carolina was invoking their own states' right to secede.  War started when the federal government [North] refused to acknowledge their secession and remove their troops from Southern forts.

LeftyLarry

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #115 on: March 04, 2021, 11:54:32 PM »
What’s funny and sad was that slavery at that point, with the influx of so many immigrants and cheap labor is that it was no longer even financially viable.
The immigrants worked 6 days a week for  “slave” wages and were forced to buy their food and often lodging from the owners of the factories , mines, farms, etc. Etc and you didn’t have to purchase them or wait for them to grow up or feed them if they didn’t get sick.
Someone wrote a book on this subject but it was immediately squashed, although not because it was untrue.
slavery was awful, horrible, disgusting and still is today but at that point it wasn’t necessary anymore , even if SOME in the South didn’t know it yet.

“”””””


Was slavery actually cheaper than paid labor would have been in the United States?

One of the ironies about the end of slavery is the adaptable slave masters in the South discovered their previous system was grossly inefficient and expensive. They were paying for slaves who did forced labor, with the slaves and perceived capabilities setting the pace. Expensive slaves were assets and they had to work them at a level without doing damage, they had to feed them, they had to care for them, and they had to allow for a family type structure as an incentive and as something to threaten for control, and that was for field hands. For Household slaves, they also required expensive clothing to keep up appearances. The Southern system was very different from say the majority of labor slaves of the Roman empire. The Roman empire provided a glut of slaves who could be used up, they could be fed nominal food and worked hard enough that the malnutrition and work related injuries are obvious to forensic archaeologists of today. In the South, taking care of older, injured and low contribution slaves usually took place because if they were simply left to starve, it’d be a disincentive for the healthier ones to contribute.

The former Southern Slave masters developed a system reliant upon low wages and share cropping.

So, now they could pay for just enough to get workers to work. If they could get healthy men willing to work for just enough to get full bellies and to have a few drinks and get laid on Saturday night, that was cheaper than paying to keep an expensive field hand healthy, one that they formerly had the expense of raising for years before productive work or buying and trying to make up the costs, AND feed. The former masters no longer had to provide for the old and infirmed to survive.

With share cropping they could hire whites and blacks who worked their land and took much of the risk and had to provide the labor. People generally work harder when they’re believing they’re working for themselves. A fortunate, hard working share cropper might do well, and they won out. An unfortunate one, even if it was a matter of insects, or bad weather, still owed and some debt was incurred, so much of the risk went from the land owner to the share cropper.

So, ironically, both the former slave owners, and new carpet baggers paid less in overall labor costs than was necessary during the days of slavery.

This is without even getting to the incentives of states and towns to set up jails for using transient and vagrant labor.

For those limited in terms: Yes, by moving to low wages for both skilled and unskilled labor, the former slave masters were able to drop the legacy costs of long-term slavery.
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One of the about the end of slavery is the adaptable slave masters in the South discovered their previous system was grossly inefficient and expensive. They were paying for slaves who did forced labor, with the slaves and perceived capabilities setting the pace. Expensive slaves were assets and they had to work them at a level without doing damage, they had to feed them, they had to care for them, and they had to allow for a family type structure as an incentive and as something to threaten for control, and that was for field hands. For Household slaves, they also required expensive clothing to keep up appearances. The Southern system was very different from say the majority of labor slaves of the Roman empire. The Roman empire provided a glut of slaves who could be used up, they could be fed nominal food and worked hard enough that the malnutrition and work related injuries are obvious to forensic archaeologists of today. In the South, taking care of older, injured and low contribution slaves usually took place because if they were simply left to starve, it’d be a disincentive for the healthier ones to contribute.

The former Southern Slave masters developed a system reliant upon low wages and share cropping.

So, now they could pay for just enough to get workers to work. If they could get healthy men willing to work for just enough to get full bellies and to have a few drinks and get laid on Saturday night, that was cheaper than paying to keep an expensive field hand healthy, one that they formerly had the expense of raising for years before productive work or buying and trying to make up the costs, AND feed. The former masters no longer had to provide for the old and infirmed to survive.

With share cropping they could hire whites and blacks who worked their land and took much of the risk and had to provide the labor. People generally work harder when they’re believing they’re working for themselves. A fortunate, hard working share cropper might do well, and they won out. An unfortunate one, even if it was a matter of insects, or bad weather, still owed and some debt was incurred, so much of the risk went from the land owner to the share cropper.

So, ironically, both the former slave owners, and new carpet baggers paid less in overall labor costs than was necessary during the days of slavery.

This is without even getting to the incentives of states and towns to set up jails for using transient and vagrant labor.

For those limited in terms: Yes, by moving to low wages for both skilled and unskilled labor, the former slave masters were able to drop the legacy costs of long-term


Karl Burkhalter, BA History & Religion, LSU Shreveport (2003)
Answered September 16, 2020 · Author has 2.8K answers and 943.1K answer views
No. Contract “Company Store” Labor was cheaper.

SLAVERY AND ABOLITIONISM, AS VIEWED BY A GEORGIA SLAVE, by Harrison Berry, a Georgia slave. In this first quote, he points out the hypocrisy of Northern antislavery:

“It is estimated, that in the city of New York, alone, about twelve vessels are fitted out every year, for the Slave Trade; and that Boston and Baltimore furnish, each, about the same number, making a fleet of thirty-six vessels. If to these be added the Slavers fitted out in other Eastern ports, besides Boston, we
If one inherited or had in the past as a result of some infusion of money managed to buy a large operation, be it plantation or factory, that came with slaves attached to it, there was some economic benefit in maintaining that system in one’s personal business. A slave was an expensive proposition to buy, but once owned, a slave family could produce children, who themselves would also be slaves, and who w

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H. Alan Raymond, PhD Cybernetics & Management, Brunel University London
Answered 2 years ago · Author has 192 answers and 40.3K answer views
Slavery, as practiced in the US South was very problematic solution for those seeking to a feudal life style. As the owners could not get enough indentured servants, white, to fill in as serfs, and the white “slaves” indentured servants did not fare well in the climate and surroundings, they opted to bring in black slaves. by the fact that they had been captured by rival tribes and sold into the unknown and treated roughly, made them difficult to manage, especially since they did not speak English, and had to taught and forced into a work context. This required a large investment up front.

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Jane Leavell, Bachelor's Secondary English Education & Library Science, Bowling Green State University (1900)

Slavery was cheaper than paid labor in the US, as it was in other countries. Slaves, like horses, had to be bought, but then could be bred to produce many workers who did not need to be paid. Free laborers could demand higher wages, and walk away if they did not receive them. They could not be overworked or forced to work in bad weather or bad working conditions; again, they could walk away.


Robert Mucci, n/a Anthropology & Slavery, Home

When the slave masters visited the cotton mills in England and saw the conditions that prevailed there,they said that they would never never treat their slaves as badly as theBritish workers were.For one the British worker had no value on there heads and could be disposed of or killed off, and at no cost they could easily be replaced !

All some British workers earned in a day was enough to buy a large loaf of bread, ( I earned my crust today an old saying ) to keep alive he had to have is wife and children working as well ( kids then had to work 10hour shifts per day ).


Greg Brecht, Writer, Floridian, Liberal,
Answered 2 years ago · Author has 4.6K answers and 1.7M answer views
I’m not sure this is really answerable.

Slaves were property, sometimes treated like livestock and sometimes treated like family—and of course many were family.

Slaves had more than economic value in the South. They signified a high social status, which money could not buy. In a racially stratified social structure, the existence of black slaves made even the poorest and most uneducated white person feel superior.

There were a couple of advantages slaves had over free labor. In theory your workers can all up and leave you if another employer offers higher wages. In 1860, free workers had other op

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Susan Canaday

No. Slavery was an incredibly costly system. And a very inflexible system. It was not responsive to economic change. It was very costly to maintain.

Think about it. People had to be purchased and smuggled out of a country far away and travel by boat to that country. People were sold for high prices. The owner was responsible for their housing and feeding. While many slaves were treated badly and given no medical care, the owner was responsible for paying to replace them if they died. And there was the very high cost of supervising them every moment, and chasing after them if they ran away.

Martin Harris, former Forward Observer to Battery Commander at 49th Field Artillery Battalion, Charlie Battery (1955-1957)

Recent “cliometrics” (economic history) have made the persuasive (statistics- and logic-based) argument that, as slave values , and the various costs of their non-working years, rose faster than their understandably low, un-mechanized, productivity could justify, the answer was verging on “no” in the ante-bellum years . To that basic argument they add the “externalized cost” factor, the financial extent to which slavery’s existence was dependent on tax-payer-supported escapee prevention, detection, and related-expense investment, primarily by the majority of taxpayers, the small- or no-slaves.



Clay Reynolds, studied History & Literature at The University of Texas at Austin (1971)
Answered 2 years ago · Author has 1K answers and 3.7M answer views
As a general rule, most southerners did not own slaves. Most historians settle on the figure of about 500,000 individuals out of about 15,000,000 citizens in slave-holding states owned slaves.

If one inherited or had in the past as a result of some infusion of money managed to buy a large operation, be it plantation or factory, that came with slaves attached to it, there was some economic benefit in maintaining that system in one’s personal business. A slave was an expensive proposition to buy, but once owned, a slave family could produce children.

Paul Reinke, Career in National Security as Analyst & Executive
Answered 2 years ago · Author has 2K answers and 1.1M answer views
If anyone is interested in an Econometric analysis of the utility of Slavery in the United States, I would urge them to read “Time on the Cross” by Fogel and Engerman.

Time on the Cross: The Economics of American Slavery: Robert William Fogel, Stanley L. Engerman: 9780393312188: Amazon.com: Books

Coming to a conclusion based on facts, data, and statistics is always preferable to simply making stuff up.

The short answer? No. Slavery, and the type of economy it supported was dying out well before the Civil War came to pass.



Michael Troy, History Podcaster - AmRevPodcast.com

Truly free labor might be more expensive. But there were ways to make labor probably about as cheap as slavery, possibly cheaper. In the post Civil War era, Southern States created peonage laws using sharecropping.

Essentially, black farmer would be paid to farm the land and would be lent money over the year to pay for food and other items needed to farm the land. When he sold his crop, the land owner would take repayment of the loan.

This was done in such a way that the sharecroppers remained in a continual state of debt and could never leave. The land owner got his crops grown and harvested fo


H. Alan Raymond, PhD Cybernetics & Management, Brunel University London

Slavery, as practiced in the US South was very problematic solution for those seeking to a feudal life style. As the owners could not get enough indentured servants, white, to fill in as serfs, and the white “slaves” indentured servants did not fare well in the climate and surroundings, they opted to bring in black slaves. by the fact that they had been captured by rival tribes and sold into the unknown and treated roughly, made them difficult to manage, especially since they did not speak English, and had to taught and forced into a work context. This required a large investment up front.



Jane Leavell, Bachelor's Secondary English Education & Library Science, Bowling Green State University (1900)

Slavery was cheaper than paid labor in the US, as it was in other countries. Slaves, like horses, had to be bought, but then could be bred to produce many workers who did not need to be paid. Free laborers could demand higher wages, and walk away if they did not receive them. They could not be overworked or forced to work in bad weather or bad working conditions; again, they could walk away, unli



Miguel Corazao, MS from University of California, Berkeley (1994)

E. G. Moye, studied Political Science at Duquesne University (1979

Chattel slavery was the most remunerative way to get labor ever devised. It was dangerous and violent forcing people to work for nothing for their entire lives, so it was exploited vigorously. Slaveowners leveraged slaves' financial face value every way possible. Some of the ways slaves were used:
As collateral for huge loans used to buy land and supplies to run the business of plantation farming.


Robert Mucci, n/a Anthropology & Slavery, Home Studies

When the slave masters visited the cotton mills in England and saw the conditions that prevailed there,they said that they would never never treat their slaves as badly as theBritish workers were.For one the British worker had no value on there heads and could be disposed of or killed off, and at no cost they could easily be replaced !

All some British workers earned in a day was enough to buy a large loaf of bread, ( I earned my crust today an old saying ) to keep alive he had to have is wife and children working as well ( kids then had to work 10hour shifts per day ).


Greg Brecht, Writer, Floridian, Liberal,


Slaves were property, sometimes treated like livestock and sometimes treated like family—and of course many were family.

Slaves had more than economic value in the South. They signified a high social status, which money could not buy. In a racially stratified social structure, the existence of black slaves made even the poorest and most uneducated white person feel superior.

There were a couple of advantages slaves had over free labor. In theory your workers can all up and leave you if another employer offers higher wages. In 1860, free workers had other op

Susan Canaday

No. Slavery was an incredibly costly system. And a very inflexible system. It was not responsive to economic change. It was very costly to maintain.

Think about it. People had to be purchased and smuggled out of a country far away and travel by boat to that country. People were sold for high prices. The owner was responsible for their housing and feeding. While many slaves were treated badly and given no medical care, the owner was responsible for paying to replace them if they died. And there was the very high cost of supervising them every moment, and chasing after them if they ran away.

Martin Harris, former Forward Observer to Battery Commander at 49th Field Artillery Battalion, Charlie Battery (1955-1957)

Recent “cliometrics” (economic history) have made the persuasive (statistics- and logic-based) argument that, as slave values , and the various costs of their non-working years, rose faster than their understandably low, un-mechanized, productivity could justify, the answer was verging on “no” in the ante-bellum years . To that basic argument they add the “externalized cost” factor, the financial extent to which slavery’s existence was dependent on tax-payer-supported escapee prevention, detection, and related-expense investment.  “””””””””””””

LeftyLarry

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #116 on: March 05, 2021, 05:58:29 AM »
Here is a map of Corona deaths.

I would suggest there is zero evidence to suggest economics, race or gender or anything else was involved in who died from Covid and who didn’t, so your concept that the poor were left to get sick and die is totally unfounded .

Yes, we live in a community zoned for 2+ acres , so we had less contact with people close to us than if we had lived in an apartment building in NYC and took the subway every morning and went into elevators but some people got sick here too.

Had zero to do with rich and poor.

https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/covid-19-deaths-by-race-ethnicity/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Race%20Categories%20Include%20Hispanic%20Individuals%22,%22sort%22:%22desc%22%7D

Zero to do with rich or poor?
I wonder how many people living on or under minimum wage could afford 2 acres of land?
You get to decide if you leave your home or not, people who work don't get that option.
If you get sick, you get treatment.... the poor in the US don't.

The virus treats everyone equally, but the conditions people live in and the treatments they get is extremely different..... and most of those differences are based on wealth.

Is that not obvious to you?

You lie, sorry.
By law, no sick person is turned away from an emergency room in the U.S. everyone gets treatment.

the big difference in treatment for the rich, is sadly related to the fact most RICH as you call them, are better educated and more savvy than the very poor and are less likely to accept bad medical advice and  shoddy care.
educated people are more likely to assist in the decision making process, read up on their diseases, make sure they know all the options, bother with a second opinion, not assume the Dr. is always right. Etc.etc.



Tom_Mazanec

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #117 on: March 05, 2021, 02:06:13 PM »
Why Collapse Occurs; Why It May Not Be Far Away
https://ourfiniteworld.com/2021/02/25/why-collapse-occurs-why-it-may-not-be-far-away/
Quote
Collapse doesn’t happen instantaneously; it happens many years after an economy first begins outgrowing its resource base. In fact, the resource base likely declines at the same time from multiple causes, such as soil erosion, deforestation and oil depletion. Before collapse occurs, there seem to be warning signs, including:

Too much wage disparity
Riots and protests by people unhappy with low wages
Prices of commodities that are too low for producers that need to recover their costs of production and governments that require tax revenue to fund programs for their citizens
An overstretched financial system; conditions ripe for debt defaults
Susceptibility to epidemics
Sound familiar?
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

nadir

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #118 on: March 08, 2021, 01:18:07 AM »
Another little step toward the collapse of America

LeftyLarry

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #119 on: March 12, 2021, 05:43:11 AM »
Dow hits all time high again today as America continues to decline.

anecdotally, business is starting to pick up and people are going back to work as more and more are vaccinated by the Trump vaccines, herd immunity isn’t far off.

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #120 on: March 16, 2021, 09:38:09 AM »
Dow hits all time high as the rich get richer on the backs of the working class.

Trump isn't responsible for the vaccine. There are many of them from many countries.... last I heard science did it

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #121 on: March 16, 2021, 03:46:44 PM »
Dow hits all time high as the rich get richer on the backs of the working class.

Trump isn't responsible for the vaccine. There are many of them from many countries.... last I heard science did it

Trump was responsible for neither the vaccine nor the virus, contrary to what the respective political parties tell you.

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #122 on: March 17, 2021, 01:42:38 AM »
Trump was responsible for a highly botched response to the virus, leading to excessive US mortality, thus highlighting an aspect of the collapse of America, the subject of this thread..

KiwiGriff

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #123 on: March 17, 2021, 06:37:15 AM »
Trump had nothing to do with the vaccines.
Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
Notebooks of Lazarus Long.
Robert Heinlein.

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #124 on: March 17, 2021, 11:34:54 AM »
Trump had nothing to do with the vaccines.
But at least he didn't get in the way of vaccine development, which given his nature, is a triumph (of sorts).
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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #125 on: March 17, 2021, 11:38:03 AM »
He did get in the way of vaccine distribution, but thankfully he was voted out and eventually replaced in time for at least some lives to be saved by a quick vaccination program.

LeftyLarry

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #126 on: March 18, 2021, 06:33:09 PM »
He did get in the way of vaccine distribution, but thankfully he was voted out and eventually replaced in time for at least some lives to be saved by a quick vaccination program.

The stuff you indoctrinated , sillies say borders on the hysterical.

The average time to get a vaccine completed and approved by the FDA is over ten years.

Trump instituted , “ Operation Warp Speed “ and the vaccine was developed and being administered to Americans in months .Here, read leftist run Wikipedia on the subject.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Warp_Speed

As for anything involved in the initial SLOW delivery of the vaccine to patients this was a result of idiotic Leftist policies.

The Leftists in control of many of the hardest hit States decided it wasn’t fair to give it to OLD people first, even though LOL they were the ones most likely to die from Covid because OLD people in the U.S. were mostly White , so they decided to create a list of mostly non- white people like prisoners in Jails, drug addicts in rehab , homeless and  essential LOL Government workers and Heath care workers who included the 25 year olds who sweep the floors and clean up in the hospitals , even though many were young and in minimal danger and had already had Covid and recovered in a week .

Early on the distribution in these States was so bad, vaccine was going bad and being throw out every day until smart people started screaming at guys like Cuomo and forced them to lower the age to 65 and allowed centers to look the other way and not check your life history if you came there under the age of 65 to be vaccinated.

before that they wanted to sue or jail the places distributing the shot and the recipients in fear that  older white people were jumping the line.

Blame  Trump though , that gives you a lot of credibility.

When will you people figure out that it’s impossible for Trump, Republicans, Conservatives, Brexit, Israel, etc to be wrong and 100% evil on every issue?

don’t you see you have zero credibility when you do that?

we can debate Trump, Obama’s eight years of no preparation, though warned a pandemic was probable at some point, etc.etc but we can’t debate anything when your heads are up each other’s behinds and Trump caused the downfall of everything and was the problem with everything in the measly 4 years he was involved , with the  Deep State, Rino’s, Leftists, Press, Media execs, Hollywood and congress all working against him, covertly and overtly.

No, it isn’t Trump’s fault your life didn’t turn out exactly the way you had hoped and it isn't Trump’s fault that eventually, the sun will become a red dwarf and turn the EARTH into a burnt shriveled , waterless and finally vaporized  distant memory.

Gain some credibility , say that Trump was effected by his desire to save his great economy and protect his re-election hopes and maybe didn’t act as powerfully as he could have ( debatable but credible argument at least) but never say Trump’s fast actions didn’t  positively effect the speed in which the AMERICAN vaccines were created to defeat the CHINA virus.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 03:48:10 PM by LeftyLarry »

Rodius

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #127 on: March 26, 2021, 12:25:44 AM »
Why is it Trump Lovers refuse to see the obvious?

Trump knew of Covid (not the China Virus), he knew it would be bad, and then proceeded to deliberately ignore it and undermine it from that point on. He is recorded saying this and it can be listened to on public record. He KNEW Covid was going to be bad and he said in public over and over and over again that it was a nothing thing.

The vaccine..... well, the US Govt spend money on developing it, but then, so did many other govts and they developed their own vaccines as well and still are. Trump doesn't get to be congratulated for doing the obvious and required job he is there to do. It isn't special. It is what is expected.

The US has been one of the, if not the worst, breeding ground in the world for Covid. The US had an opportunity to stop it there and failed because Trump refused to do anything about it. It was left to States to take action independently and without Federal leadership and it failed.
Trump was the leader at the time, it is his fault because he refused to take action.

And yet, in spite of these things being true, you refuse to admit he did these things.
Trump didn't make a mistake, he was aware and deliberate in his actions to let the virus do its thing. That is a punishable crime that he should stand trial for on the international courts yet it wont happen because of politics and the overinfluence the US has in those matters.

US politics is corrupt in a very bad way. Trump is one aspect, but both major parties in the US as equally bad. Trump is just a symptom, and the way I see it, Biden isn't much better.

In the end, Trump will be seen as one of the most corrupt and evil presidents of the USA. And his supporters will go down screaming in his defence.

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #128 on: March 26, 2021, 02:06:52 AM »
States did not even known how many vaccines they were getting from the Feds. There was no national distribution plan to speak of. But yeah, those leftist idiots.

The Walrus

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #129 on: March 26, 2021, 02:16:09 AM »
No argument that all politics is corrupt and Trump was one of the (if not the) worst.  However to say that he deliberately allowed the virus to spread and kill thousands of people is a stretch. 

LeftyLarry

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #130 on: March 26, 2021, 04:00:38 AM »
States did not even known how many vaccines they were getting from the Feds. There was no national distribution plan to speak of. But yeah, those leftist idiots.

133,000,000 doses of the AMERICAN vaccine have been administered already , I and pretty much everyone I know who wanted the vaccine has gotten it, including my children and their spouses who are all in their 30’s.

I told you, what was broken in the rollout was the Leftist idiocy that the OLD people most likely to die from it shouldn’t all get it first because the majority of them were white .When they were throwing spoiled vaccine out everyday the Leftists were forced to open things up, the vaccines were administered
and we are on our way to herd immunity.

Personally, We are back going out to Restaurants with our friends and everybody has been fine.

I believe not one person who has been vaccinated twice Nd waited two weeks  has died from Covid  and very few have even gotten it, it’s been crazy effective like 99% no hospitalizations either.

The AMERICAN vaccine , out in record time, is sought after throughout the entire world!

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Re: The Collapse Of America
« Reply #131 on: March 26, 2021, 09:14:18 AM »
operation warp speed a successful trump effort to stall state efforts to distribute the vaccine. Mostly I think trump did it to make President Biden look inept. It was pretty obvious when trump left that their was no plan to distribute it. The only part the government played in the actual development was making a large order of doses an implementing an emergency approval protocol developed when government pandemic program was funded the rest was done by a private company. (hint trump fired all of the pandemic experts that were prepared to effectively manage this at the beginning of his presidency).  trump also likes to make the government look incompetent to support the privatize everything his cronies support. Mostly trump spent his time in office making government entities that did things he does not like dysfunctional. He is a monkey with only one tool he knows how to use which is too destroy things.