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etienne

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #350 on: September 28, 2019, 05:16:44 PM »
^^
What does climate neutrality mean?
Honestly, I would say that it is one of many concepts that have been defined to make greenBAU marketing possible. Anyway, there are many companies producing trendy products that are far from fair trade and ecological.

philopek

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #351 on: September 28, 2019, 05:32:07 PM »
^^
What does climate neutrality mean?

Let me give you an example, don't hesitate to follow up in case it's not a good one for you:

If you fly to a specific destination and pay for as many trees as necessary to compensate for the CO2 footprint you just left.

IMO this is kind of an "Alibi" thingy, even though it's certainly better than nothing.

- it often lacks control to verify that money is used in full for the purpose

- a significant percentage of the funds are used for administration purposes

- I doubt that full CO2 footprint is calculated, especially in my example above

- IMO the only way to reduce CO2 footprint is consume A LOT less, in fact only what's necessary and then in case of exceeding the basics to perhaps compensate in some cases, that at least makes sense.

For example it does not make sense for northern Europeans to fly to the mediterranean sea in summer if at all. Climate and landscapes are perfect very far up north, days are longer and most countries are tourist countries during summer themselves, hence for recreation it's not necessary to go south where AC is needed and overcrowding is causing many side effects and excess CO2.

Many would push the tear glands and argue, that this is when kids have a holiday, just in case we accept to travel that way at all. I'd tell them that nature doesn't care a tiny bit when humans have their holidays and a shorter holiday in winter would suffice too, at least one can compensate a bit via less heating and warm water consumption while away ;) ;)

Alls this are only examples, there are many of such examples.

Most of the so-called CO2/climate neutral things are only neutral when looked at them very tolerantly. In fact it means mostly, "Business As Usual"

Privately I'd make it short and say it's mostly a fraud/cheat and many make money with it, hence a business model as well, that would be ok if it were real as advertised.

« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 05:37:14 PM by philopek »

nanning

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #352 on: September 28, 2019, 06:25:36 PM »
^^
What does climate neutrality mean?
<snip>
Most of the so-called CO2/climate neutral things are only neutral when looked at them very tolerantly. In fact it means mostly, "Business As Usual"

Privately I'd make it short and say it's mostly a fraud/cheat and many make money with it, hence a business model as well, that would be ok if it were real as advertised.

Thank you philopek for that.
I agree in general but I think that all that advertising does is make you believe a dream, make you see or feel things that are not real, lie, manipulate; the abuse, and souring of, groupbehaviour and social functions with pumping up the idea of status and individuality.

If any society needs the evil of temptation for the distribution/logistics of goods and services then something is very very deeply wrong with that society imo.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

philopek

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #353 on: September 28, 2019, 11:49:35 PM »
I agree in general but I think that all that advertising does is make you believe a dream, make you see or feel things that are not real, lie, manipulate; the abuse, and souring of, groupbehaviour and social functions with pumping up the idea of status and individuality.

Just to avoid misunderstandings, if you mean ME with those YOUs in bold my answer is no, I'm not depending or relying on advertising, in fact I mostly hate ads. I never purchase things that are advertised, I ponder over what i want and select from the result what i need and then search the appropriate product that fulfills certain criteria. This is a general approach while nothing is 100% of course, ads can provide ideas and I'm not immune to beautiful things ;)

If you mean people as a whole, society with those YOUs, i agree, that's how it mostly is, I'd guess a 98% quota for such behavior.

Thanks for the feedback either way, i can see what you are trying to convey and agree with the
underlying way of thinking and how to look at things.

nanning

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #354 on: September 29, 2019, 04:52:39 AM »
No, I didn't mean you personally. Sorry for the confusion Philopek.
I should written that clearer.
Thank you for your personal story in this context.

What are your thoughts on:
- Do you agree that our current systems are fundamentally dependent on temptation?

- That through this the people are/have been conditioned into a fantasy dreamworld? That this has created the consumerists?

Quote
Thanks for the feedback either way, i can see what you are trying to convey and agree with the
underlying way of thinking and how to look at things.
That's nice to read. Thanks! :)
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 04:57:53 AM by nanning »
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

philopek

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #355 on: September 29, 2019, 05:32:00 PM »

What are your thoughts on:
- Do you agree that our current systems are fundamentally dependent on temptation?

- That through this the people are/have been conditioned into a fantasy dreamworld? That this has created the consumerists?


a) It always depends on how deep one follows to roots to the well ;) While tend to seek the very lowest reach of the root, it's also evident that solving issues at the surface by taking care of the deepest point wont' work with human behavior, people can't follow and kill the messenger ;), virtually nowadays, literally a few decades ago with some regional exceptions.

Hence I on one hand agree with your statement but think it's worth there are even deeper "dependences" to you your term or roots to use mine.

Temptatin is based on curiosity at best and on rivalry at worst.

Rivalry is based on ego and since ego is neutral, necessary to survive and deadly when
uncontrolled, the solutions to all this is "EGO-CONTROL", means that ethics based on
understanding and sincere motives, willing to pay a personal price for things to be done right
and being ready to lose to remain as clean as possible with our doings.

Best example to explain this is real love against interest based love. If we love we are ready to step back, to lose, to pay, to forego, just to make the person we love happy or prepare the path for
a good life.

Interest based love, no matter what the interest/motivation is, will only work as long as both interests are in some kind of sync, a range of how much we are willing to give/share to
remain within our own range to reach our goals.

In short, ego is a tool that we have to use responsibly and the check list are ethics, easy to verify to change the side like turning a chess board 180° too see things from the other side. If we accept a move by our opponent, we can consider the possibility to act the same way.

b) I call this illusionism and concur while the tip of the root is in the very vicinity of a) that illustrates very well why it depends on how deep we follow the roots. Let's say a) and b) share a long way down to the tip while only at the very end they split into tiny ends and stay very close so that we have apparently 2 topics while in fact they are from the same branch, if we solve a), b) does not exist.

Last but not least, illusions work on both sides, evil meant and well meant. A well meaning Illusionist will achieve nothing while the evil meaning illusionist will achive a lot and that explains in parts why up to this day the evil prevails, it's easier to succeed and rivalry advertises success.

Whenever someone is pointing at a soo.... successful guy, i mostly can only either shut up or express that illusionary success in my opinion is a fail and means doom for the masses of sheep following the illusionists over the cliff, to use that common image ;)

BTW:

The never ending discussion what is "On Topic" and what's "Off Topic" as well depends on how far down a branch we are willing or allowing to dig, or in  other words, how many ramifications
we allow in a discussion.  For those who think very holistic, everything is "on topic" and for those who either THINK in fields of expertise or those who are narrow minded, almost everything that can be seen as a separate branch is "Off Topic"

Since these are very personal preferences and part of personalities, it will never be possible to share views in detail, hence we need rules and someone who ultimately decides, else anarchy would be the result and that's not a valid option as well.

For me it's very difficult to be muted by such rules but then as mentioned the alternative is anarchy and that's definitely worse. I mention this because I've seen one of your posts that blow a similar horn along my own line of thinking ;) ;)

Jim Hunt

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #356 on: October 06, 2019, 11:51:52 AM »
Via @DamienGayle on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/damiengayle/status/1180474119390928896

Quote
Police use a battering ram to break into Extinction Rebellion warehouse in Kennington, south London.

Equipment confiscated from Extinction Rebellion included these pink bean bags, which remain under heavy guard from the Met’s territorial support group.



Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

Jim Hunt

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #357 on: October 07, 2019, 11:45:23 AM »
My old mates David Rose and Matt Ridley are out in force dissing Tamsin Edwards on Twitter for her alleged support for XR blockading a hospital. For more details see:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,578.msg232226.html#msg232226
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

be cause

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #358 on: October 07, 2019, 01:49:32 PM »
my act of rebellion today .. I named a seedling willow .. 'Salix alba 'Fred's Red' after my father whose father planted the seedling's parents over 100 years ago . Dad would have been 100 next monrh but buggered off at 95 . :) . Fred's red has very bright orange red stems and should serve as a help in encouraging folk to plant replacements as our ash trees succumb to die-back . Orders for stock welcome 2021 on .. :) .. b.c.
   
 p.s. congrats Jim on your 4242 posts .. that's a nice prime number of 42's ..
« Last Edit: October 07, 2019, 01:55:23 PM by be cause »
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 ...

kassy

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #359 on: October 07, 2019, 02:08:44 PM »
Nice detail bc.  :)

Lot´s of protests all around:

Dozens of Extinction Rebellion activists have been arrested as protests take place across the globe.

Thirty people were charged with committing offences in Sydney after hundreds blocked a road, while activists surrounded a government building in Wellington, New Zealand.

Fifty people were detained in Amsterdam for erecting a tent on a main road.

Protests by climate change activists are expected in some 60 cities over the next two weeks.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-49959227
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ShortBrutishNasty

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #360 on: October 07, 2019, 11:14:05 PM »
PPE... what a concept.

ShortBrutishNasty

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #361 on: October 07, 2019, 11:18:33 PM »
Not going anywhere until the Makita Diamond Blade Cutoff Wheel arrives.....  If only I had balls like that guy....
« Last Edit: October 07, 2019, 11:25:54 PM by ShortBrutishNasty »

Jim Hunt

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #362 on: October 14, 2019, 01:40:22 PM »
A recent "tweet" from Prof. Richard Pancost, Head of the School of Earth Sciences at Bristol University and Emeritus Director of the Cabot Institute:

https://twitter.com/rpancost/status/1183347552822976513

Quote
Proud to be a signatory to this. Some aspects of XR must improve - including its diversity and inclusion. But there is no doubt that the Climate Emergency demands radical action. And protests are essential to achieving that.

According to Reuters:

Quote
In a joint declaration, climate scientists, physicists, biologists, engineers and others from at least 20 countries broke with the caution traditionally associated with academia to side with peaceful protesters courting arrest from Amsterdam to Melbourne.

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

nanning

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #363 on: October 15, 2019, 05:39:06 PM »
To all the protesting hero's of XR who are arrested and maybe in prison: I wish you strenght and unity with your heroic contributions and you have my full respect.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

blumenkraft

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #364 on: October 15, 2019, 06:42:12 PM »
+1
Refugees welcome

etienne

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #365 on: October 15, 2019, 08:50:52 PM »
https://rebellion.earth/2019/10/14/rebel-daily-6/
Report of last weekend's events by XR.

ShortBrutishNasty

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #366 on: October 16, 2019, 05:23:09 AM »

NeilT

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #367 on: October 17, 2019, 11:01:09 AM »
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

Jim Hunt

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #368 on: October 17, 2019, 01:42:54 PM »
A big XR "own goal"?
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

NeilT

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #369 on: October 17, 2019, 03:48:55 PM »
It is a big problem in the whole thing. People will understand the problem and support moves to fix it.

But the second you start really screwing with people's lives, when those people have little option, sympathy goes out the window fast.

Then what exactly are they trying to prove?

FF cars, check
Flights, check

One of the largest and most heavily used public transport infrastructures which runs on Electricity in a country which is already in compliance with the Paris accord?

FAIL.

The message is supposed to be getting out of your fuel guzzling car and onto shared transport which runs on renewable energy.

"Own Goal" doesn't even begin to describe it.

All I can say is that if this continues in this way people are going to get hurt and those who get hurt will be the honest caring people, not those who organise XR.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

etienne

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #370 on: October 17, 2019, 07:42:56 PM »
 One of the problems of modern times socual movements is that they refuse a clear leadership. This is probably related to the social media dynamic, but could also be related to the complexity of the issues. Civil righrs, apartheid, national Independence are concepts where leaders might be easier to find than climate change or social inequality.
I believe that this action was an error, hope that it will not be repeated and that some XR members will also communicate that idea. Non violent action makes it impossible to separate the action and the aim.

etienne

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #371 on: October 17, 2019, 09:10:33 PM »
Greta retweeted an XR message against this morning action.
https://mobile.twitter.com/XRCroydon

NeilT

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #372 on: October 17, 2019, 11:07:34 PM »
I don't know etienne.  Right at the beginning they blockaded trains which were entirely electric in a station which removed hundreds of thousands of vehicles from the city.

It will bear watching but the mood is changing.  From suffering tolerance to seething intolerance.

I did warn of the risks of switching the focus from science to politics. From what I hear my fears are emerging.

No glee here at all.  Just sadness.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

etienne

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #373 on: October 18, 2019, 06:39:19 AM »
If I look at the Luxembourgish context, the only action of the government that is not an investment in energy efficiency or renewables is an increase of 0,01 Eur of gasoline liter, and 0,02 Eur for diesel. Many people are very frustraded and this is always a dangerous situation. Why don't they reduce speed limits on the roads, why can"t they increase the cost of flying... Because the economy and growth have a higher priority than climate, so the government prefers to compensate CO2. They are lucky that most people here think like them, and it is also why they have been elected, but it could bring some people to act in some not too smart ways.

Jim Hunt

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #374 on: October 18, 2019, 01:42:03 PM »
This morning the Viscount Ridley and Julia Hartley-Brewer have been prattling on about the "hypocrisy" of XR. At ~50:00 minutes Matt exhorted Julia's loyal viewers to "stand up to the bullies", so I did:
 
https://twitter.com/jim_hunt/status/1185157156313677824
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

etienne

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #375 on: October 18, 2019, 04:16:52 PM »
Well, he didn't convince me. I agree that the XR movement is getting out of control, but I belive that this is also due to a lack of action on the political side. I have often found that climate policies look like peak oil policies because they only try to reduce long term fossil fuel consumption and don't look at the easy things that could be done directly. In a peak oil context, a SUV is not an issue because you always have the possibility to take public transportation if gasoline becomes too expensive. I am also surprised that he finds that there aren't more disasters than before. The huricane statistics I have seen seem to be clear. Also regarding maximum temperature, India seems to become less viable, I feel that climate change is not just for the Poles.

Shared Humanity

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #376 on: October 18, 2019, 07:18:16 PM »
I agree that the XR movement is getting out of control...

I could not disagree more strongly. Young people don't want to live in a world where hundreds of millions die (perhaps billions) due to climate change. Given the stark fate they are facing, I'm thinking they need to up the pressure.

gerontocrat

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #377 on: October 18, 2019, 07:52:31 PM »
This morning the Viscount Ridley and Julia Hartley-Brewer have been prattling on about the "hypocrisy" of XR. At ~50:00 minutes Matt exhorted Julia's loyal viewers to "stand up to the bullies", so I did:
 
https://twitter.com/jim_hunt/status/1185157156313677824
Dear Jim Quixote,

Being bored with windmills & the WUWT, you decided to tilt your lance against "Twin-set & Pearls" Julia and "I Broke the Bank" Ridley? Ripley being an advisor to one of Voldemort's spin doctors (the GWPF), that would suggest the Fragrant Julia is of like mind.

Stick a stake through their hearts, and just like Dracula, they will be back in yet another "Hammer Horror" movie before the blood on the stake is dry.

Ridley was educated at Eton. Eton alumni - Cameron, Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Ridley. Is Eton an asset to the UK?
_______________________________________________
Ridley chaired the UK bank Northern Rock until 2007, during which time the bank experienced the country's first bank run in 140 years. Ridley resigned, and the UK Government bailed out the bank, leading to the nationalization of Northern Rock. Ridley was responsible, according to parliament's Treasury select committee, for a “high-risk, reckless business strategy” which the bank was able to pursue as the result of a “substantial failure of regulation” by the state.

The family's got form ..

Uncle Nick - yes, educated(?) at Eton
"More importantly, he was the Cabinet Minister responsible for the introduction of the 'Poll tax' (formally known as the Community Charge), a policy that brought a standing ovation at the Conservative Party conference at which it was announced, and riots across the country when it was implemented.
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #378 on: October 19, 2019, 01:37:47 PM »
Stick a stake through their hearts, and just like Dracula, they will be back in yet another "Hammer Horror" movie before the blood on the stake is dry.

Which goes some way to supporting our initial hypothesis?

https://www.researchgate.net/project/Social-and-Political-Psychology-of-the-Ship-of-Fools-meme

Here's the next episode of the Hammer house of horror show:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/2019/10/watts-up-with-arctic-sea-ice-thickness/#comment-294855

Quote
David Middleton is now regurgitating the old Skate/Seadragon surfacing at the North Pole stuff.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein