War, War, War

[zenith]

- Reframe Sino-Russian power structure for at least a decade
- Flush out last gen weapons systems and bring in the next era of autonomous systems
- Learn about battlefield effectiveness of new systems and methods
- Preempt or delay Chinese unification with Taiwan
- Crush Russian ambitions, perhaps leading to Balkanization, and partial political realignment

"We, in the west, are backing the israelis as they dig deeper and deeper and we're backing the ukrainians as they dig deeper and deeper, and you really sort of wonder about the collective wisdom of the foreign policy establishment in the west, especially in the united states from my point of view. What are theses people thinking? It just seems to me that anybody who looks at these conflicts in a cold and calculating way, which is the way that we do, it's kind of hard to avoid the conclusions that we're reaching - i don't mean to sound like i'm patting the three of us on the back - but i just sometimes scratch my head and say, listen to this western propaganda about israel and ukraine, what are these people thinking? The facts on the ground bare little resemblance to the story that they're telling." John Mearsheimer

Point of No Return in Middle East & Ukraine - John Mearsheimer, Alexander Mercouris & Glenn Diesen

[Florifulgurator]

(...)
》It just seems to me that anybody who looks at these conflicts in a cold and calculating way, which is the way that we do, it's kind of hard to avoid the conclusions that we're reaching ...《 John Mearsheimer

Meanwhile, a finlandization of Ukraine would be a ridiculous idea - after Finland has joined NATO. Thus, Ukraine either has to concede/exchange territory with Russia and then join NATO soon, or wait a bit longer for a total collapse of Putin's special operation and join NATO later.

[Rodius]

A trick question to answer... but my version is they are genuine about wanting to protect their immediate borders from US militarization of Russian borders. This makes a lot of sense to me.

The problem with this as policy reason for going to war is that Russia invading and going to war with its neighbours is itself the number one driving force for those neighbours to apply to join NATO.

The issue I have with that statement is that NATO expanded even though Russia repeatedly asked them to stop and to respect the words coming from the US that NATO wouldn't expand one inch East.

This fact has been repeated many times and it is still ignored.

The rest of what you said is a reciting of Western media (propaganda to justify US actions to the Western people) and is said without consideration that Russia has a point about the Donbas.

Have you considered that Russia left attacking Ukraine for so long because they didn't want to get into a war?

Or that the continuous expansion of NATO before Russia did anything is as scary as hell for Russia given the animosity of the US toward Russia?

Russia isn't a saintly country, but to ignore its entire perspective, as you are doing, blinds you somewhat to why Russia is doing what it is doing.

The US is a very aggressive and overly militarised nation with intent to do damage to anyone who stands in their way. I know we all want to be on the right side of events, like the US was in WW2, but that is not the case here.

When we look back on the US empire people will wonder why we let them do what they do just like we wonder why Germany let Hitler do what he did.

[morganism]

NATO never said they would not expand, even Gorbachev said that. NATO forbids military action to expand, so there is no danger to russia having NATO on it's border, would allow them to put more military resources on the border with china.

russia declared they would not attack the politics or sovereignty of Ukraine, if it would give up it's nukes and cruise missiles. They have done both, causing all the corruption and destruction. Invaded in 2014, and invaded Crimea, then attacked in force across border.

Saying its a proxy war, or that the US did a provocation is simply putin propaganda..

[Paddy]

he issue I have with that statement is that NATO expanded even though Russia repeatedly asked them to stop and to respect the words coming from the US that NATO wouldn't expand one inch East.

This fact has been repeated many times and it is still ignored.

Continuous expansion?

The last major expansions of NATO membership were in 1999 and 2004.  From then until Finland’s accession in 2023, the only expansion in membership had been from countries in the Balkans joining, which is hardly close to Russia. And there is no treaty anywhere where NATO gave Russia any veto powers on who could apply to join.

In 1999, Russia signed the Charter for European Security, affirming the right of each state "to choose or change its security arrangements" and join alliances if they wish. In 2002, Russia's president Vladimir Putin did not object to Ukraine's growing relations with the NATO alliance and said it was a matter for Ukraine and NATO. In 2005, Putin said that if Ukraine wanted to join NATO, "we will respect their choice, because it is their sovereign right to decide their own defence policy, and this will not worsen relations between our countries".

Putin then switched policies in 2008 and started threatening Ukraine with military repercussions etc in the event that it ever joined NATO, and then things really went downhill with the annexation of Crimea and the Donbas conflict that followed.

No part of a sovereign country choosing its own security arrangements and alliances justifies military invasion, however.

[zenith]

"it's all coming to a head" peter lavelle

peter is an american living in moscow and george is a hungarian (?) living in the united states (?)
The Gaggle with Peter and George

TG 1676: The Disappearing Restraints On Missile Strikes Deep Inside Russia


the articles they're discussing (lampooning):

Why Ukraine’s allies are divided over deep strikes into Russia
UK has pressed US to back Kyiv’s use of Storm Shadow missiles on Russian territory
https://www.ft.com/content/274d8994-c0fb-4f9b-8572-0ffb00b5de23

Ukraine is invading with British tanks. What does it mean for us?
The Kremlin spits ‘fire and brimstone’ — but fears of nuclear escalation are overblown, defence sources say
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/uk-weapons-ukraine-used-russia-82vpf5rh8

Ukraine to present Biden admin with targets it could hit in Russia, given the chance
US officials are still adamant that lifting the restrictions will not have a significant impact on the ground.
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/08/26/ukraine-biden-targets-russia-restrictions-00176377

the united states/the west is drunk on power/insane and it's extremely dangerous.

[KiwiGriff]

let me get this right
Russia has a right to attack Ukraine with drones made in Iran deep into its territory but Ukraine does not have  the right to respond with western weapons.

  HOW DO WAR CRIME PROSECUTORS CONSIDER THE CURRENT ATTACKS?

Nigel Povoas, lead prosecutor for a team of international experts assisting Kyiv war crimes investigators, told Reuters that Russian attacks in the past two months have "focused on eliminating infrastructure crucial to the means of civilian survival such as heat, water, power and medical facilities".
Both Schmitt and Povoas say the scale and the intensity of the attacks can additionally amount to them being considered as "acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population".
This is forbidden under international humanitarian law and was confirmed as a war crime by rulings of the U.N. tribunal for the former Yugoslavia relating to the siege of Sarajevo.

[KiwiGriff]

the united states/the west is drunk on power/insane and it's extremely dangerous.

Ukraine has the right to target Russian assets used to attack it .
If the West does not allow Ukraine to use its weapons to do so Ukraine will for forced to develop its own.
Which it has done .
You think Russia has a right to make war on ukraine  without the effect of that war spreading to its own territory?
Expect more attacks  deep into Russia including electrical infrastructure, railway's,  airfields, oil refinery's and military assets .






 

[zenith]

the united states/the west is drunk on power/insane and it's extremely dangerous.

Ukraine has the right to target Russian assets used to attack it .
If the West does not allow Ukraine to use its weapons to do so Ukraine will for forced to develop its own.
Which it has done .
You think Russia has a right to make war on ukraine  without the effect of that war spreading to its own territory?
Expect more attacks  deep into Russia including electrical infrastructure, railway's,  airfields, oil refinery's and military assets .

if ukraine had the capability to fire the weapons the west provides deep into russia it would have done so by now, that it hasn't means that ukraine isn't in control of using these weapons, nato is. if nato starts hitting moscow or st. petersburg then london, paris, brussels, berlin and washington are fair game and it will be mushroom clouds.

your imperialist mindset is really disgusting.

BREAKING: A Two-Front War AND Tactical Nukes Are A REAL Possibility Now | Ray McGovern

[Rodius]

the united states/the west is drunk on power/insane and it's extremely dangerous.

Ukraine has the right to target Russian assets used to attack it .
If the West does not allow Ukraine to use its weapons to do so Ukraine will for forced to develop its own.
Which it has done .
You think Russia has a right to make war on ukraine  without the effect of that war spreading to its own territory?
Expect more attacks  deep into Russia including electrical infrastructure, railway's,  airfields, oil refinery's and military assets .

if ukraine had the capability to fire the weapons the west provides deep into russia it would have done so by now, that it hasn't means that ukraine isn't in control of using these weapons, nato is. if nato starts hitting moscow or st. petersburg then london, paris, brussels, berlin and washington are fair game and it will be mushroom clouds.

Why would Russia use nukes just because a couple of their cities get bombed a bit?

It makes no sense.

If/when Ukraine hits a Russian city, the response will be more of the same from Russia... want to know why... because that is the smart move.

The only reason nukes will be used is if Russia is attacked with them or NATO enters Russian soil and nukes are used along the frontline.

You really need to get a grip on yourself. Putin isn't insane, he is defending his borders as he said he would.

[zenith]

You really need to get a grip on yourself. Putin isn't insane, he is defending his borders as he said he would.

putin isn't insane, nato is and they're attacking russia. if you think russia is going to allow major nato strikes to occur on it's large cities and critical infrastructure without striking back you need to get a grip. it could turn nuclear in a heartbeat from either side. i guess you missed what lavrov said two days ago and everything i've been posting since. this is the conversation that's happening.

what is russian nuclear doctrine (it's currently being reassessed), what is the united states nuclear doctrine.

[zenith]

No part of a sovereign country choosing its own security arrangements and alliances justifies military invasion, however.

ukraine was, constitutionally, a neutral country until the united states staged a coup d'etat in 2014 and west ukrainians started slaughtering east ukrainians who are ethnically/culturally russian. then a civil war started. in your revisionist history you can't even get the nato expansion part correct, even to the level of wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO

"Many scholars criticising NATO enlargement refer to Kennan as the ultimate authority who warned against the consequences. Arguing against Clinton’s decision was the last significant thing Kennan did in his life. In October 1996, at Columbia University’s Harriman Institute, Kennan reacted to a talk by Deputy Secretary of State Strobe Talbott, calling the plan of NATO enlargement a ‘strategic blunder of epic proportions’. In an article in the New York Times the following year, he famously argued that it ‘would be the most fateful error of American policy in the entire post-Cold War era’. Kennan expected that NATO expansion would give rise to undemocratic and anti-Western forces in Russia and would lead to another Cold War, but was certain that official Washington would persist. He was right: it proved easy for Clinton to ignore not only Kennan, whose credibility was undermined by his long-standing opposition to NATO, but, more remarkably, the majority of the U.S. foreign policy and scholarly establishments."
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09592296.2024.2303860#abstract

you can read the entire chronology of events from prior to 2014 until sept. 2020 (his death) by an american russian studies professor, stephen f. cohen, as he was trying to prevent this war from happening. here:
https://www.thenation.com/authors/stephen-f-cohen/

you can lead a horse to water (repeatedly) but you can't make them drink...
very tedious.

The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy And Its Geostrategic Imperatives Paperback – Sept. 18 1998
https://www.amazon.ca/Grand-Chessboard-American-Geostrategic-Imperatives/dp/0465027261

[gerontocrat]

The West Bank, step by inevitable step, is becoming a 2nd Gaza.

Will there be a war?
Much depends on Saudi Arabia, the Emirates and Iran weighing enjoyment of their oil riches against the lives of a few million Palestinians.

Much also depends on whether the US is willing to force Israel to back off from their West Bank incursions and creeping annexation of Traditional Palestinian land. Only the US has the power to do it but............................

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/31/trauma-in-the-west-bank-after-israeli-raids-palestinian-territory

‘There was no mercy, even on children’: trauma in the West Bank after Israeli raids


A scene in the West Bank on Saturday. Photograph: Sufian Taha/The Observer

Israel accused of using a 10-year-old girl as a human shield as it carried out its devastating attack on the occupied Palestinian territory

When Israeli soldiers arrived at the modest house along an alleyway in Nur Shams camp on Wednesday night, they sent the women and four of the children out into the street, but kept hold of Malak Shihab.

They took the muzzle off their dog and it went straight up to the slight 10-year-old girl and sniffed her. Terrified, she pleaded to be with her mother, but the soldiers seemed to have just one phrase in accented Arabic: “Open the doors.”

The platoon pushed her up to each of the doors in her aunt’s house, according to Malak’s account, while they remained braced behind her ready to fire at whoever might be inside. One door wouldn’t open, and in her desperation to obey, the girl remembers hammering on it with her head.

“I don’t know why. I just wanted it to open,” she said on Saturday, accompanied by her parents as she retraced her actions on the first night of the Israeli incursion.

The door was finally forced open with a rifle butt which left a hole above the handle, but there was no one on the other side and the soldiers moved on.

Malak has experienced several army raids in her short life – but this was the first time she had been used as a human shield by soldiers. The Nur Shams camp on the eastern edge of the West Bank city of Tulkarm, is known for its militancy. It has its own armed force, the Nur Shams brigade, a mix of followers of Islamic Jihad, Hamas and other radical groups.

The raids on the camp, and two other militant strongholds on the West Bank, Jenin and el Far’a camp, were a particularly ferocious iteration of a pattern that has repeated itself through the decades.

Each time, the soldiers come looking for militants and usually kill a few, leaving devastation and traumatised civilians in their wake before withdrawing. The mess is cleared up, and the fallen fighters are quickly replaced by younger militants.

“Mowing the grass” it is called, by certain Israeli generals and pundits, and the cynical phrase is repeated on the West Bank by Palestinians with added irony as they are well aware they are the “grass”.

In the course of last week’s incursion, the IDF cornered and killed the Nur Shams brigade’s 26-year-old leader, Mohamed Jaber, better known as Abu Shujaa, along with four of his fighters, who Israel said would otherwise have mounted attacks on Israelis. The five men died in a gunfight at a mosque 50 metres from the Shihabs’ house.

Abu Shujaa’s death represented a significant success for the IDF, in need of positive news after 10 months of bombing Gaza without finishing off Hamas. The force had learned the lessons of the 7 October attack by striking first, the military briefers said.

The damage done to Nur Shams was also dramatic. The camp was first established in 1952 for those displaced by Israel’s independence war, Palestine’s original Nakba, or disaster. In the al-Manshiya district at the heart of the camp most houses showed signs of damage, and the roads had been turned into rutted rubble-strewn tracks by IDF bulldozers, sent in first to eliminate any lurking roadside bombs.

Each time the troops have moved in, more children in Nur Shams have been exposed to violence. In the last raid, nine months ago, Malak fainted from the smoke from a blast outside the family home. So this time, her father, Mohammed, sent her, her mother and siblings to his sister’s house. But she was no safer there.

Asked how she felt three days later, Malak said: “Scared but also angry. I don’t know why I feel angry, but I just do.”

The IDF was approached for comment on the alleged use of a child as a shield during a house search. Similar allegations were made during an earlier incursion in Nur Shams in April, and were denied by the army.

By Friday, the soldiers had ended the latest raid and withdrawn and by Saturday the clear-up was well under way. The local bakery had reopened and was selling plastic bags of pitas or bread rolls.

The baker, who wanted to be referred to as Abu Jihad, recalled how the males from his family, young and old, had been rounded up in the early hours of Wednesday morning, and were taken with tied hands to a warehouse at one end of the camp. There they were interrogated about the whereabouts of the brigade and their arms caches, and kicked and punched in the process.

“There was no mercy, even on children. Why take a 13- or 14-year-old boy from his house and beat the shit out of him and break his phone?” the baker said, referring to his own son.

On the road outside, the camp’s main thoroughfare, bulldozers were clearing the torn asphalt and other wreckage, while cement lorries and sewage trucks crawled along in both directions. The phone company had set up a kiosk under a parasol to oversee repairs to the lines.

The small alleys leading up the hill, the capillaries of Nur Shams, remained clotted by decades of damage and the immediate trauma of this latest, most destructive attack. Black tarpaulins suspended along their length, a shield from the electronic eyes of Israeli drones, reinforced the overall sense of gloom.

“I have lived through the six-day war (in 1967) and two intifadas but I never saw anything like this,” said Um Raed, a 72-year-old woman sitting outside on a street of wrecked and burnt houses. “What can we do? We are patient, but we are also so very tired.”

In an open doorway nearby, neighbours stared at a mat of dried blood, the start of a broad rust-red stripe leading into the interior of a house.

It was the blood of Ayed Abu al-Haija, a 63-year-old man with mental health problems who had trouble understanding the gravity of the threat around him. His granddaughter had seen him standing in his doorway from an upstairs window on Wednesday afternoon and urged him inside.

But then she heard a “weird noise” and when she went downstairs, Ayed was lying on his back with part of his skull missing. His nephew Haytham believed he had been hit by an Israeli sniper firing from a high window up the street. The Palestinian health ministry estimates that 20 Palestinians were killed in last week’s raids, but did not distinguish between civilians and militiamen.

In his life and death, Ayed Abu al-Haija had embodied a cycle of violence which has, in every turn, taken the region further from a peaceful settlement. He had been imprisoned and brutalised as a youth in the 1970s, and his mind never recovered. That left him vulnerable to a sniper’s bullet half a century later.

As far as Haytham was concerned, the blame travelled much further back, to the British, who had promised land to the Jews that was not theirs to give, and whose rule over Palestine from 1920 to 1948 ushered in the state of Israel.

“Our tragedy is your responsibility. This blood is on the hands of the Britons,” he warned.

Nur Shams shows its recurrent trauma like rings on a tree. The route from the Abu al-Haija house down to the main road was lined with pictures of martyred members of the Nur Shams Brigade, each brandishing a rifle. Photos of Abu Shujaa and the four other fighters killed last week are likely to be stuck up alongside them in the coming days.

At the end of the alley sat the camp’s most likely future. In a semi-circle of plastic chairs, surrounded by admiring men and boys, was a young member of the brigade, in cap and black T-shirt, his black M-16 assault rifle casually balanced on his lap. He could not have been older than 20 and was pale from sleeplessness and lack of sun, his white skin marred by bruising on his right side – left by debris from a grenade blast, he said. He was brimming with confidence.

“The resistance is stronger than ever,” he insisted. “Every time they do an incursion it gets stronger. That’s why every incursion is worse than the one before. Abu Shujaa is gone, mercy on his soul, but 100 fighters will take his place. How do you think the children here will grow up? They will take a gun and go to the battlefield.”

[zenith]

Much also depends on whether the US is willing to force Israel to back off from their West Bank incursions and creeping annexation of Traditional Palestinian land. Only the US has the power to do it but............................

everything depends on the united states, who could end it with a phone call as they're supplying the money and weapons to keep this going, but they won't as their unsinkable aircraft carrier in the middle east is too important to regional hegemony. plus the israel lobby owns congress.

netanyahu and his band of messianic fanatics want a regional war, which they're trying hard to provoke, that's targeted on iran. why you're blaming iran, when they get blamed for supporting the resistance, can only be explained with your obsession with the brainwashing/disinformation from your favoured rag - the guardian, which is the guardian of the establishment these days.

israel is destroying itself, internally (near civil war) and externally as they have but one real ally left - the united states. israel is in dire straights.

meanwhile...

The Heat🔥 Ukraine On The Verge Of Total Collapse💥 Panicked Retreat⚔️ Military Summary For 2024.08.31


Zelensky's final act of desperation


both ukraine and israel have no way forward, except wider war and the united states coming to their "rescue". mushroom clouds here, mushroom clouds there...

[Rodius]

You really need to get a grip on yourself. Putin isn't insane, he is defending his borders as he said he would.

putin isn't insane, nato is and they're attacking russia. if you think russia is going to allow major nato strikes to occur on it's large cities and critical infrastructure without striking back you need to get a grip. it could turn nuclear in a heartbeat from either side. i guess you missed what lavrov said two days ago and everything i've been posting since. this is the conversation that's happening.

what is russian nuclear doctrine (it's currently being reassessed), what is the united states nuclear doctrine.

In your "the end of the world is near" thinking, you have become completely lost and biased in your thinking.

I didn't say Russia wouldnt retaliate... of course they will.
But NOT with nukes... it is a zero sum game.

Also, what is your definition of NATO?
If Ukraine uses missiles supplied from NATO states, that is not NATO, it is an independent State. It is a technicality but that is the situation.

IF, and that is a BIG IF, nukes are used, my guess it will be defensive in nature, as in tactical nukes dropped from planes onto military assets or soldiers on Russian soil. I doubt anyone could argue that was a bad thing if a nuke is used in that manner and it is unlikely start a full scale nuke war. Drop one, and the bluff is called without causing more nukes to be used (hopefully).

Anyway... I am aware of the Russian changes in nuke usage.

You are right about not reading what you write (for the most part) because most of your words are either conspiracy related, illogical, and full of insults when people disagree with you and... not to put too fine a point on this, you just spam the crap out of several threads which effectively renders them useless. It is good when others give their opinion but tiring when you insist on responding to almost everything with your diatribe.

[zenith]

In your "the end of the world is near" thinking, you have become completely lost and biased in your thinking.
... It is good when others give their opinion but tiring when you insist on responding to almost everything with your diatribe.

opinions based on your own fantasy are useless - that's why we're at the precipice. i'm not lost and biased in my own thinking, you are, as are so many other here. i'm posting the thoughts of the russians and very experienced analysts that are former ambassadors/cia/military/political scientists/etc. but you think you know better. you fall into the same delusional trap that the west is operating in - we're  invincible and we don't actually have to take what our enemies are saying seriously. it's complete garbage.

try an evidence based reality founded on facts, not fantasy.

[zenith]

You are right about not reading what you write (for the most part) because most of your words are either conspiracy related, illogical, and full of insults when people disagree with you and... not to put too fine a point on this, you just spam the crap out of several threads which effectively renders them useless.

you are the ridiculous, entitled child...

Russia's Lavrov Warns US That World War III Wouldn't Be Confined to Europe
"They have a mindset of a master sitting somewhere out there overseas and believing to be totally safe and secure, thinking that not only Ukrainians, but also... Europeans would be willing to do the dirty work and die for them."
https://www.commondreams.org/news/wwiii-russia

[Richard Rathbone]

The West Bank, step by inevitable step, is becoming a 2nd Gaza.

Will there be a war?
Much depends on Saudi Arabia, the Emirates and Iran weighing enjoyment of their oil riches against the lives of a few million Palestinians.

Much also depends on whether the US is willing to force Israel to back off from their West Bank incursions and creeping annexation of Traditional Palestinian land. Only the US has the power to do it but............................

A couple of things to note. The Nakba is not the independence war. The Nakba is the ethnic cleansing that started 6 months before the war, and did not end when the war did. Israelis are well aware of this, but they like to mislead outsiders into confusing the two.

In Palestine childhood has always ended at 10. 11 year boys were subject to the same treatment as 25 year old men in the Nakba, and they remain subject to the same mistreatment in Israeli torture camps today. In international law, it was a child being used as a human shield. In Israeli eyes it was an adult woman.

[gerontocrat]

Quote from Richard Rathbone

In Palestine childhood has always ended at 10. 11 year boys were subject to the same treatment as 25 year old men in the Nakba, and they remain subject to the same mistreatment in Israeli torture camps today. In international law, it was a child being used as a human shield. In Israeli eyes it was an adult woman.

The age of criminal responsibilty in England is 10.

In Judaism and Islam coming of age is a bit later for boys but possibly earlier for girls.

It's never too early to be a victim of those much older.

https://jewishmuseum.org.uk/schools/asset/life-cycle-bar-bat-mitzvah/#:~:text=A%20Bar%20or%20Bat%20Mitzvah,would%20like%20to%20practice%20Judaism.
A Bar or Bat Mitzvah is a coming of age ceremony for Jewish boys and girls when they reach the age of 12 or 13. This ceremony marks the time when a boy or girl becomes a Jewish adult. This means that they are now responsible for their own actions and can decide for themselves how they would like to practice Judaism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coming_of_age#:~:text=Once%20a%20person%20begins%20puberty,%2Dto%2Dfifteen%20years%20old.
Islam
Children are not required to perform any obligatory religious obligations prior to reaching the age of puberty, although they are encouraged to begin praying at the age of seven. Once a person begins puberty, they are required to perform salat and other obligations of Islam.[35]

A girl is considered an adult when she begins menstruating, while a boy is considered an adult at twelve-to-fifteen years old. The evidence for this is the narration of Ibn Umar that he said: "Allah's Apostle called me to present myself in front of him on the eve of the battle of Uhud, while I was fourteen years of age at that time and he did not allow me to take part in that battle but he called me in front of him on the eve of the battle of the Trench when I was fifteen years old, and he allowed me to join the battle." (Reported by Bukhari and Muslim). When Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz heard this Hadith he made this age the evidence to differentiate between a mature and an immature person.

In some Islamic cultures circumcision (khitan) can be a ritual associated with coming of age for boys, taking place in late childhood or early adolescence.[36]

Age of criminal responsibility. The age of criminal responsibility in England, Wales and Northern Ireland is 10-years-old (Crime and Disorder Act 1998, Criminal Justice (Northern Ireland) Order 1998). The age of criminal responsibility in Scotland is 12-years-old (Age of Criminal Responsibility (Scotland) Act 2019).28 Feb 2024

Children and the law | NSPCC Learning

NSPCC Learning
https://learning.nspcc.org.uk › child-protection-system

[SteveMDFP]

the united states/the west is drunk on power/insane and it's extremely dangerous.

Ukraine has the right to target Russian assets used to attack it .
If the West does not allow Ukraine to use its weapons to do so Ukraine will for forced to develop its own.
Which it has done .
You think Russia has a right to make war on ukraine  without the effect of that war spreading to its own territory?
Expect more attacks  deep into Russia including electrical infrastructure, railway's,  airfields, oil refinery's and military assets .

if ukraine had the capability to fire the weapons the west provides deep into russia it would have done so by now, that it hasn't means that ukraine isn't in control of using these weapons, nato is. if nato starts hitting moscow or st. petersburg then london, paris, brussels, berlin and washington are fair game and it will be mushroom clouds.

your imperialist mindset is really disgusting.

BREAKING: A Two-Front War AND Tactical Nukes Are A REAL Possibility Now | Ray McGovern

Ukraine's military actions are not controlled by NATO, they are influenced by individual donor countries.  NATO operates by consensus, and not just with new admissions to that alliance.  Every single NATO member has a veto over NATO initiatives.

Until quite recently, Hungary vetoed all NATO activities to support Ukraine militarily.  Only recently did Orban assent to NATO providing military assistance, with the proviso that Hungary would not be participating in such efforts.

Ukraine has thus been receiving aid from a wide array of the world's democracies individually, some being NATO members, some not.  SKorea, Japan, and Australia are notable non-member allies.  The individual donors have placed limits on use of supplied materiel, not NATO. 

Painting NATO as a boogeyman is Russian propaganda.  NATO does not engage in "aggressive expansion."  Individual democracies join the alliance through democratic mechanisms, typically a national referendum.   NATO as an organization places limits on eligibility of prospective members. 

Among those limitations is that no nation can join which is embroiled in a territorial dispute.  Thus, Moldova and Georgia are ineligible, as Russia occupies parts of those nations.  Ukraine has been ineligible since 2014, when Russia took over the Crimean peninsula and part of the Donbas.  Russia placed a veto on Ukraine joining NATO long before its wholesale invasion.

At the time of the invasion, Ukraine had zero prospects of becoming a NATO member.  Using "NATO expansion" as a justification was actually a flimsy pretext.  The actual reasons in Putin's mind are not related to NATO expansion.

[Richard Rathbone]

Quote from Richard Rathbone

In Palestine childhood has always ended at 10. 11 year boys were subject to the same treatment as 25 year old men in the Nakba, and they remain subject to the same mistreatment in Israeli torture camps today. In international law, it was a child being used as a human shield. In Israeli eyes it was an adult woman.

The age of criminal responsibilty in England is 10.

In Judaism and Islam coming of age is a bit later for boys but possibly earlier for girls.

It's never too early to be a victim of those much older.

https://jewishmuseum.org.uk/schools/asset/life-cycle-bar-bat-mitzvah/#:~:text=A%20Bar%20or%20Bat%20Mitzvah,would%20like%20to%20practice%20Judaism.
A Bar or Bat Mitzvah is a coming of age ceremony for Jewish boys and girls when they reach the age of 12 or 13. This ceremony marks the time when a boy or girl becomes a Jewish adult. This means that they are now responsible for their own actions and can decide for themselves how they would like to practice Judaism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coming_of_age#:~:text=Once%20a%20person%20begins%20puberty,%2Dto%2Dfifteen%20years%20old.
Islam
Children are not required to perform any obligatory religious obligations prior to reaching the age of puberty, although they are encouraged to begin praying at the age of seven. Once a person begins puberty, they are required to perform salat and other obligations of Islam.[35]

A girl is considered an adult when she begins menstruating, while a boy is considered an adult at twelve-to-fifteen years old. The evidence for this is the narration of Ibn Umar that he said: "Allah's Apostle called me to present myself in front of him on the eve of the battle of Uhud, while I was fourteen years of age at that time and he did not allow me to take part in that battle but he called me in front of him on the eve of the battle of the Trench when I was fifteen years old, and he allowed me to join the battle." (Reported by Bukhari and Muslim). When Umar Ibn Abdul Aziz heard this Hadith he made this age the evidence to differentiate between a mature and an immature person.

In some Islamic cultures circumcision (khitan) can be a ritual associated with coming of age for boys, taking place in late childhood or early adolescence.[36]

Age of criminal responsibility. The age of criminal responsibility in England, Wales and Northern Ireland is 10-years-old (Crime and Disorder Act 1998, Criminal Justice (Northern Ireland) Order 1998). The age of criminal responsibility in Scotland is 12-years-old (Age of Criminal Responsibility (Scotland) Act 2019).28 Feb 2024

Children and the law | NSPCC Learning

NSPCC Learning
https://learning.nspcc.org.uk › child-protection-system

When  the men were separated from the women and children in the Nakba, 10 was the age that qualified boys to be massacred or taken for slave labor.
When a boy is playing in a West Bank street, 10 is the age that qualifies him to be shot in "self defense" by the occupying forces or to be arrested and detained without charge in a torture camp.

[zenith]

At the time of the invasion, Ukraine had zero prospects of becoming a NATO member.  Using "NATO expansion" as a justification was actually a flimsy pretext.  The actual reasons in Putin's mind are not related to NATO expansion.

another day, another sage revisionist.

2007 Munich speech of Vladimir Putin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Munich_speech_of_Vladimir_Putin

2008 nato bucharest summit
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_8443.htm

"23. NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO.  We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO.  Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations.  We welcome the democratic reforms in Ukraine and Georgia and look forward to free and fair parliamentary elections in Georgia in May.  MAP is the next step for Ukraine and Georgia on their direct way to membership.  Today we make clear that we support these countries’ applications for MAP.  Therefore we will now begin a period of intensive engagement with both at a high political level to address the questions still outstanding pertaining to their MAP applications.  We have asked Foreign Ministers to make a first assessment of progress at their December 2008 meeting.  Foreign Ministers have the authority to decide on the MAP applications of Ukraine and Georgia."

Putin warns Nato over expansion
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/apr/04/nato.russia

"The Russian president, Vladimir Putin, today repeated his warning that Moscow would view any attempt to expand Nato to its borders as a "direct threat".

Russia has been angered by the 26-nation military alliance's eastward growth, and Nato yesterday said Ukraine and Georgia, both former Soviet republics, could one day join."


Kremlin says Stoltenberg comments are confirmation that NATO is fighting in Ukraine
By Reuters
October 12, 2022
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/kremlin-says-stoltenberg-comments-are-confirmation-that-nato-is-fighting-ukraine-2022-10-12/

"MOSCOW, Oct 12 (Reuters) - The Kremlin on Wednesday said that comments yesterday by NATO General Secretary Jens Stoltenberg could be considered confirmation that NATO is fighting on Ukraine's side in Kyiv's conflict with Russia.
On Tuesday, Stoltenberg said that a Russian victory in Ukraine would be "a defeat for us all"."


July 11, 2024

Five reasons why Ukraine should be invited to join NATO
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/five-reasons-why-ukraine-should-be-invited-to-join-nato/

what's flimsy is the pretense that nato/nato member states aren't operating in ukraine.

[zenith]

"NATO General Secretary Jens Stoltenberg... said that a Russian victory in Ukraine would be "a defeat for us all"."

The Ukrainian Front in Donbas is Collapsing...


Outnumbered, Outgunned & Jeopardized - Ukraine's Eastern Front Grows CRITICAL - Map & News Update

[zenith]

Ukraine seeks retired F-16 pilots to fly its jets while it trains new pilots
U.S. officials say only 20 Ukrainian airmen in U.S., Dutch and Danish training programs are expected to be ready to fly F-16s this year.
https://www.wptv.com/investigations/russia-ukraine-war-on-the-ground/ukraine-seeks-retired-f-16-pilots-to-fly-its-jets-while-it-trains-new-pilots#:~:text=Facebook-,Ukraine%20seeks%20retired%20F%2D16%20pilots%20to%20fly%20its%20jets,fly%20F%2D16s%20this%20year.&text=Aug%2012%2C%202024-,If%20you're%20a%20retired%20F%2D16%20pilot%2C%20your,That's%20according%20to%20Sen.

"If you're a retired F-16 pilot and you're looking to fight for freedom, they will hire you here," Graham said. "They're going to look throughout NATO nations for willing fighter pilots who retired to come help them until they can get their pilots trained. So we're going to get these jets in the air sooner rather than later."

[zenith]

we'll see how long the united states sticks with this line, if they stay on this course it'll be a first time they haven't crossed their own red line and escalated. hopefully sobriety wins out for once.

Ukrainian defense minister tells CNN ‘I hope we were heard’ after presenting list of targets inside Russia to US officials
https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/30/politics/umerov-ukraine-targets-cnntv/index.html

"
Ukrainian Defense Minister Rustem Umerov told CNN the Biden administration is still considering his request to lift restrictions on Ukraine using long-range weapons to strike deeper inside Russian territory and confirmed he’d presented a list of targets in meetings with senior officials in Washington on Friday

“We have explained what kind of capabilities we need to protect the citizens against the Russian terror that Russians are causing us, so I hope we were heard,” Umerov said in an interview with CNN’s Alex Marquardt on “The Situation Room.”

Despite repeated requests from Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, the US is not currently expected to loosen restrictions on Ukraine’s use of long-range Army Tactical Missile Systems (ATACMS).

“You’ve heard us say that the Ukrainians can use US security assistance to defend themselves from cross-border attacks, in other words counterfire. But as it relates to long-range strike, deep strikes into Russia, our policy has not changed,” said Pentagon press secretary Maj. Gen. Pat Ryder on Tuesday.

Ukraine only has a limited supply of US-provided long-range missiles, and the US has made it clear that Kyiv should not expect another significant delivery of ATACMS because of the finite number in US inventories and the long production time of the weapon, according to a US official.

Speaking before the meeting between Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin and Umerov, the US official said many of Ukraine’s high value targets in Russia are outside the range of ATACMS. Russia’s military has pulled its high value military assets far away from the front line, including the aircraft launching glide bombs that have wreaked havoc on Ukrainian targets.

But Umerov pushed back on such assessments, saying Ukraine has presented the US a list of targets they would use ATACMS to strike."

[SteveMDFP]

At the time of the invasion, Ukraine had zero prospects of becoming a NATO member.  Using "NATO expansion" as a justification was actually a flimsy pretext.  The actual reasons in Putin's mind are not related to NATO expansion.

another day, another sage revisionist.

2008 nato bucharest summit
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_8443.htm

"23. NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO.  We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO.
what's flimsy is the pretense that nato/nato member states aren't operating in ukraine.

Yes, at one point, NATO announced that Georgia and Ukraine would be invited to join NATO.  Then Putin invaded Georgia, holding territory and thus placing a veto on its membership, successfully.  In 2014, prospects of Ukraine joining NATO became potentially imminent, so Putin invaded, again successfully vetoing that change.

Putin's veto of Moldova joining was earlier, also successful.

At the time of the current invasion, Ukraine had zero prospects of joining NATO.  That's not revisionism.  You really think Putin invaded in order to prevent Ukraine from doing something it was incapable of?  That's ridiculous.

[zenith]

At the time of the current invasion, Ukraine had zero prospects of joining NATO.  That's not revisionism.  You really think Putin invaded in order to prevent Ukraine from doing something it was incapable of?  That's ridiculous.

ukraine is too corrupt to join nato by normal means, for a start, but that doesn't mean the west isn't pushing for it regardless. hungary and possibly turkey would veto it but the game persists. it also didn't stop the west/nato from using the minsk agreements as a ruse to stall for time while they built a ukrainian/nato armed and trained army of 700 000, the largest nato army in europe. after eight years of civil war the ukrainian military lined up in donbass and began heavy shelling, that's when russia invaded.

putin didn't just wake up one day and decide to invade georgia either, more nato encirclement games afoot.

it's revisionism to suggest that putin wasn't concerned about nato on the russian border, particularly in ukraine which is tank/invasion territory. the russians are aware of the game nato/the west are playing even if you want to play three monkeys. your apple pie and mom story telling doesn't pass the sniff test.

where was putin in 1997 when this book/plan was written?
https://www.amazon.ca/Grand-Chessboard-American-Geostrategic-Imperatives/dp/0465027261

"As the twentieth century draws to a close, the United States has emerged as the world’s only superpower: no other nation possesses comparable military and economic power or has interests that bestride the globe. Yet the critical question facing America remains unanswered: What should be the nation’s global strategy for maintaining its exceptional position in the world? Zbigniew Brzezinski tackles this question head-on in this incisive and pathbreaking book.The Grand Chessboard presents Brzezinski’s bold and provocative geostrategic vision for American preeminence in the twenty-first century. Central to his analysis is the exercise of power on the Eurasian landmass, which is home to the greatest part of the globe’s population, natural resources, and economic activity. Stretching from Portugal to the Bering Strait, from Lapland to Malaysia, Eurasia is the ”grand chessboard” on which America’s supremacy will be ratified and challenged in the years to come. The task facing the United States, he argues, is to manage the conflicts and relationships in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East so that no rival superpower arises to threaten our interests or our well-being.The heart of The Grand Chessboard is Brzezinski’s analysis of the four critical regions of Eurasia and of the stakes for America in each arena—Europe, Russia, Central Asia, and East Asia. The crucial fault lines may seem familiar, but the implosion of the Soviet Union has created new rivalries and new relationships, and Brzezinski maps out the strategic ramifications of the new geopolitical realities. He explains, for example: Why France and Germany will play pivotal geostrategic roles, whereas Britain and Japan will not. Why NATO expansion offers Russia the chance to undo the mistakes of the past, and why Russia cannot afford to toss this opportunity aside. Why the fate of Ukraine and Azerbaijan are so important to America. Why viewing China as a menace is likely to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Why America is not only the first truly global superpower but also the last—and what the implications are for America’s legacy. Brzezinski’s surprising and original conclusions often turn conventional wisdom on its head as he lays the groundwork for a new and compelling vision of America’s vital interests. Once, again, Zbigniew Brzezinski provides our nation with a philosophical and practical guide for maintaining and managing our hard-won global power."

[zenith]

israel is on the brink of calamity, civil war. the netanyahu gov't doesn't care about hostages, they have messianic ambitions. without us aid it would immediately implode, it's bankrupt (but so is the us).

Drone aerials show huge Tel Aviv protest after deaths of Israeli hostages in Gaza

[KiwiGriff]

Not pushing the ukraine centric site in this case .
The comments on drone warfare are interesting.

[zenith]

the british are such bullshitters and scumbags it's amazing, they're only surpassed by the americans.

a couple years ago he was talking about drunk russians fighting with shovels as they'd run out of ammunition, they'd run out of missiles, and listen to him now. his accent and mannerisms aren't worth shit, the man is obviously a paid for stooge.

this is from 2 days ago.
Russia ’determined to take key Donbas cities before winter' | Professor Michael Clarke


the american analysts and miltary/cia he cites are totally delusional, they're literally out of their minds but they're getting rich towing the party line and sitting on corporate weapons manufacturer's boards. this is how empires end.

it will be interesting to watch these bought off idiots explain why ukrainian forces have fallen back to the dneiper within the next month or two.

Ukrainians Flee - Russia Storms Pokrovsk


if i was russia, and i've only played a strategy game (heroes of might and magic), i'd take kiev and about a 50 km. stretch all along the west of the dneiper which i'd make a fortified zone like a modern day hadrian's wall. i'd continuously bomb all western ukrainian energy infrastructure and even the industrial sites, especially around lvov - the heart of the nazis.   

[cognitivebias2]

the british are such bullshitters and scumbags it's amazing, they're only surpassed by the americans.

...

if i was russia, and i've only played a strategy game (heroes of might and magic), i'd take kiev and about a 50 km. stretch all along the west of the dneiper which i'd make a fortified zone like a modern day hadrian's wall. i'd continuously bomb all western ukrainian energy infrastructure and even the industrial sites, especially around lvov - the heart of the nazis.

You are on track for 500 posts in this thread alone for 2024.  Most of them are filled with this diatribe. 

So if you were a mighty Russia, an not some lousy Canadian, you would have executed this war against Nazi's better than, wait, what, better than the mighty Russians.  You would take Kiev, which was the 3 day target of the SMO, something the Russians have failed to accomplish in over 30 months.  You would then continuously commit war crimes against the Ukrainian population.

You are most likely mentally ill, but even so you should get a grip on yourself.

[be cause]

may he get well soon ...

[Bruce Steele]

Russia might be willing to give him a uniform and an old gun to charge the Ukrainians in a meatwave somewhere. I say we start a go fund me to get him an airline ticket over there.

[zenith]

You would take Kiev, which was the 3 day target of the SMO, something the Russians have failed to accomplish in over 30 months.  You would then continuously commit war crimes against the Ukrainian population.

the west said that the russians would take ukraine in 3 days and then people like you repeat the lie endlessly as that's what you do. what the russians were doing was negotiating a peace treaty in istanbul but the american empire wouldn't allow that to happen as they were going to destroy russia, how's that working out? 5-600 000 dead ukrainians later the american empire wants to fight to the last ukrainian when all hope of victory is long gone. the russians are accomplishing their objectives of demilitarizing and denazifying the ukrainians. don't be surprised if they take kiev.

how's that other american imperial project going in israel with the genocide? israel is imploding. the american empire just goes from loss to loss at others expense and you defend and justify all of it and then have the brass neck to call me mentally ill.

gfys.

[zenith]

Russia might be willing to give him a uniform and an old gun to charge the Ukrainians in a meatwave somewhere. I say we start a go fund me to get him an airline ticket over there.

i hope neven follows through with his edict, when ukraine loses (it's already lost) all of you warmongering cheerleaders are banned. gone.

[cognitivebias2]

i hope neven follows through with his edict, when ukraine loses (it's already lost) all of you warmongering cheerleaders are banned. gone.

i'd continuously bomb all western ukrainian energy infrastructure and even the industrial sites, especially around lvov - the heart of the nazis.   

you ... have the brass neck to call me mentally ill.
gfys.

@zenith.
I can't decide if you're 8 or 80, as you have characteristics of both ages.  Read your above 3 statements.  If that doesn't make you want to stfu then read them again.  Repeat as long as necessary.

[zenith]

and yes, i would pound the west ukrainian's means of production to sand, they wouldn't be able to produce a toothpick let alone a bullet. i'd end it conclusively once and for all. i wouldn't firebomb cities/civilians like americans are prone to doing though.

edit - the next country that thought about being a proxy for the american empire would think twice.

Meat Grinder In The South Donetsk Direction⚔️The Kursk Offensive Continues💥Military Summary 2024.9.3

[zenith]

in areas the russians on the ground are apparently getting confused by the lack of resistance, they think it's a trap but it's not. the russians are pounding the ukrainians day after day with iskander missiles, apparently they wiped a large number of forces that were concentrated in a city today. this is just getting pathetic.

Harvest Time🔥The Pokrovsk Noose Is Tightening⚔️Siversk Has Trembled🔥 Military Summary For 2024.09.03


how nato/the american empire survives this is beyond me. credibility? what's that?
very dangerous...

[zenith]

no shit.

It Is Not Hamas That Is Collapsing, but Israel
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-09-03/ty-article-opinion/.premium/it-is-not-hamas-that-is-collapsing-but-israel/00000191-b3bf-dffe-abf9-bfffd0a50000

Israel Is "COLLAPSING": Israeli General

[zenith]

this woman is so obviously indigenous to the middle east, her future skin cancer will be a testament.

these settlers in the west bank have been armed by the government and they're messianic maniacs on a mission from god. these aren't secular, atheistic zionist israelis (who still believe the bible is a land deed because that's convenient).

American-Israeli Settler JUSTIFIES Colonialism in STUNNING Interview

[Neven]

Given that no one is prepared to give in (Russians, corrupt/extreme radical West Ukrainians, and servants of US weapon industry), this war is going to last a lot longer still, which gives the pro-war/escalation crowd here plenty of time to explain why what has happened so far and is still happening, is much better than a neutral Ukraine with a durable solution for the Donbass problem (ie the ethnic divide in Ukraine).

Of course, they can't and they don't care at all about the Ukrainian people, just like they never really cared about the inferior people of Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Gaza, etc. They'll just keep doubling down and never admit that they were wrong/fooled.

So for now it continues to be: Slava Ukraini! Heroiam slava!
Until the media point them to a new group of freedom fighters that must be supported unconditionally in order to destroy another perceived enemy.

But when all enemies are annihilated, AGW will be solved.

i hope neven follows through with his edict, when ukraine loses (it's already lost) all of you warmongering cheerleaders are banned. gone.

Not all of them will be banned, but all will be prohibited from participating in discussions about politics.

[zenith]

this war is going to last a lot longer still

we'll see how much longer it lasts, it sounds like germany has called it quits as they don't have the money or materiels to dump down this hole. the americans will cut and run eventually too, they always do. the ukies could stage terrorist activities for years though and likely will.

[etienne]

...
But when all enemies are annihilated, AGW will be solved.
...

I truly believe that it will go the other way around, that AGW will solve the war problem.

I just finished the book "Eichmann In Jerusalem" by Hannah Arendt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem

It's worth reading it, but it is not a book to read in the evening before going to bed.

Anybody talking about Nazis should read it, just to know what they are talking about. She also has a nice sentence about the importance of international justice to protect Israel against a genocide.

I read the french version, so I can't provide any quote. One sentence I liked very much is about your responsibility while obeying (Eichmann always said that he was just doing is job). She states that politics is not preschool, obeying means supporting. In the book, she demonstrated that he didn't have to obey, he could have got another job.

[zenith]

zelensky fired the head of the air force this week and now, apparently, he's dismissed other government officials, others are resigning while some more are being laid off (or something).

the russians hit a military academy in poltava with an iskander where there were, apparently, western trainers.

this can't continue forever, it's looking like a failed state. it won't be too long before the ukies are doing whatever they do from the other side of the dneiper. what will the american empire do is the question, this will be a bitter pill to swallow as ukraine is the lynchpin of their plans for eurasian domination.

Last Chance - Direct Frontline Information & UA Govt MASS Resignation - Ukraine Map & News Update

[Florifulgurator]

(...)
Until the media point them to a new group of freedom fighters that must be supported unconditionally in order to destroy another perceived enemy.

But when all enemies are annihilated, AGW will be solved.

There is always the Arab Palestinians. Fighting for freedom since 1920 (Nebi Musa riots)...
As Greta and friends like to chant: "No climate justice on occupied land".
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/article/2024/sep/04/greta-thunberg-arrested-at-gaza-war-protest-in-copenhagen


https://climatejustice.uk/free-palestine/

</sarc>

... and that's how fanatical polit propaganda parrots destroyed climate activism.
I have watched the disintegration first hand in Lützerath. Meanwhile, "Palestine Greta" is the cherry on the cake.

(...)
I truly believe that it will go the other way around, that AGW will solve the war problem.

How? When H S Sapiens realizes the hard way that there are better things to do than wage war? Then it will be too late. Today, wars are fought for stupid old ideas. Tomorrow, wars will be fought for plain survival.

Has AGW awareness even arrived in the Islamic world?

[Richard Rathbone]

Given that no one is prepared to give in (Russians, corrupt/extreme radical West Ukrainians, and servants of US weapon industry), this war is going to last a lot longer still, which gives the pro-war/escalation crowd here plenty of time to explain why what has happened so far and is still happening, is much better than a neutral Ukraine with a durable solution for the Donbass problem (ie the ethnic divide in Ukraine).

Of course, they can't and they don't care at all about the Ukrainian people, just like they never really cared about the inferior people of Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Gaza, etc. They'll just keep doubling down and never admit that they were wrong/fooled.

So for now it continues to be: Slava Ukraini! Heroiam slava!
Until the media point them to a new group of freedom fighters that must be supported unconditionally in order to destroy another perceived enemy.

But when all enemies are annihilated, AGW will be solved.

i hope neven follows through with his edict, when ukraine loses (it's already lost) all of you warmongering cheerleaders are banned. gone.

Not all of them will be banned, but all will be prohibited from participating in discussions about politics.

To prevent Ukrainians from participating in politics is why Putin invaded in the first place.

The generally agreed world standards for problems like the Donbas are:
1) no redrawing of boundaries by force, 
2) governments treat people under their authority with respect, the details of this being set out in various declarations of human rights, Geneva and other conventions.

Donbas has a lot of similarities with Ulster. If someone wants to stir up trouble, the presence of mixed colonial and colonised cultures provides opportunities. If there's a powerful outsider that decides to switch that influence from stirring up conflict to pressuring governments to respect human rights, then peace is possible. The Good Friday agreement is essentially the UK agreeing to abide by those international standards, with the EU and the US guaranteeing that they will force the UK to stick to it. When the UK has tried to backslide, the EU and the US have applied pressure to maintain the agreement. As long as the US was arming the IRA, Ulster was essentially insoluble. It took mutual membership of the EU and a change of US attitude to open up a possibility of peace, and Brexit has destabilised it. I don't think that anyone doubts that if the UK tried to solve its Ulster problem by sending a column of tanks south from Belfast to Dublin, the US would be on the Irish side.

Sending  a column of tanks towards Kyiv changed the nature of the conflict. People who previously had mixed cultural identities have been forced to become Russian or Ukrainian. Two brothers that previously spoke Russian but were politically Ukrainian might now be on opposite sides of the war. There were a lot of people that found themselves forced to make that choice and the cultural landscape is different as a result. One might choose authoritarianism rather than change language and the other might change their language in order to live in (or die for) a democracy. War polarises identities.

A basic pattern of human behaviour is that subordinates copy their superiors, and rivals differentiate themselves from one another. Imitation is indeed the sincerest  form of flattery. Adolescents rebel against their parents as they age from subordinate children to rival adults. Generation gaps and fashions are both driven by the interplay between rivalry and subordination. This happens in families, in local, in regional as well as in national identities.

Colonial struggles on one level are about the colonised becoming rivals of the colonisers and the colonisers wanting to maintain their superior status. Putin sees Ukrainian as a subservient form of Russian and is trying to force Ukraine to be more like Russia. Ukraine sees itself as a rival to Russia and is trying to differentiate itself. This is not a conflict that can be resolved other than by an existential concession from one or the other side. Either Putin loses power or Ukraine is forcibly subjected.

This cultural conflict has played out many times in history, during the Russian Revolution Ukraine was accepted as an equal, which is why the USSR was the USSR rather than the Russian Empire. Stalin subjected Ukraine by purges of its elite and starvation of its populace to return it  to subservient status. The breakup of the USSR returned Ukraine to independent status, and now Putin is seeking to forcibly subject it again. This is just the most recent episode, its been going for the entire history of the region. Stalin used colonisation as part of his assertion of Russian dominance, hence the post colonial flavor to the current iteration.

The authoritarian method of resolving conflict is that rivals fight it out and the losers become subjects. The liberal method of resolving conflict is that powers are split and differences tolerated. Revulsion at the consequences of the authoritarian method led to global agreement to liberal principles after WW2, but not everyone is keeping the agreements they signed up to. Which is another perennial human problem. What is to be done about a predatory neighbour?

[zenith]

To prevent Ukrainians from participating in politics is why Putin invaded in the first place.
What is to be done about a predatory neighbour?

what a load of garbage, absolute trash. complete revisionist nonsense. start with the 2014 coup d'etat and try again.

Operation Z - Anglais
https://www.amazon.ca/Operation-Z-Jacques-Baud/dp/2315010640

"Operation Z . Why did Putin launch Operation Z in Ukraine ? Are Ukrainian forces using neo-Nazi volunteers ? What are the forces involved and the reality of the military conflict over the past six months ? What do we know about war crimes like Butcha ? Have Western economic sanctions worked ? Is the massive arms shipment from the West having an effect on the conflict ?. After the best-selling book Putin : Master of the Game, whose analysis has been acclaimed worldwide, Jacques Baud returns in this book to the root causes of the war in Ukraine and the reasons that pushed Vladimir Putin to intervene on 24 February 2022. Using intelligence information and official reports, he analyses the course of the military actions and the way they were interpreted in the West. It explains the political and economic disruption of the world order and the long-term consequences of Western sanctions on our daily lives. It reveals how the conflict could have been avoided and what avenues were deliberately left open by the US and Europe.."

-------
try reading someone who knows what they're talking about.
https://www.thenation.com/authors/stephen-f-cohen/

[etienne]

(...)
I truly believe that it will go the other way around, that AGW will solve the war problem.

How? When H S Sapiens realizes the hard way that there are better things to do than wage war? Then it will be too late. Today, wars are fought for stupid old ideas. Tomorrow, wars will be fought for plain survival.

Has AGW awareness even arrived in the Islamic world?

Well, who said that the Ukraine War is not an AGW War. Siberia is burning, Mr Putin needs new places to go hunting and for the Russian population. Maybe he knows that making a war is the only way to avoid talking about CO2 reduction.

I feel that we could reach a point where adaptation and repairs related to AGW will require so many resources that it just won't be possible to continue the wars.

Wars are not really low carbon activities, are not times where you take care of nature, so this can only accelerate the AGW.

[SteveMDFP]

To prevent Ukrainians from participating in politics is why Putin invaded in the first place.
What is to be done about a predatory neighbour?

what a load of garbage, absolute trash. complete revisionist nonsense. start with the 2014 coup d'etat and try again.

Operation Z - Anglais
https://www.amazon.ca/Operation-Z-Jacques-Baud/dp/2315010640

https://fr-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Jacques_Baud?_x_tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

Kremlin propagandist.  I suspect paid.

[Neven]

beautiful story

This all sounds wonderful, on paper, at face value, in theory. But in practice, it's a lot more complicated, and you have to leave out a lot of important stuff to make the story work. And it's the same story every time, again and again, based on the superiority of western values and perspectives, ignoring the rest of the barbaric world. When enough people believe these simplified stories, there's all the backing and support that is needed to do evil things (at the behest of wealth concentration, mostly).

It happened before and during the conflicts in Palestine, Iran, Vietnam, Chile, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, and now Ukraine.  Every time it's the same story.

You talk about international laws and rules, and the USSR, and what Putin thinks and wants. A beautiful story, full of historic revisionism and assumptions, leaving out the fraught history of what is called 'Ukraine', how dysfunctional and corrupt it has become since 1990, how there is an ethnic divide instead of a cultural-linguistic monolith, how US soft power invaded Ukraine through its NGOs and the descendants of Ukrainian Nazis who were imported to the US at the end of WW2. Most importantly of all, your story doesn't address the fact that the Ukrainian people are being sacrificed to sell weapons and destabilize Russia.

And so it goes, each time. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, the list is endless. Then, over the course of 10-20 years, the beautiful story slowly changes into the real story and it becomes common knowledge. But nobody learns from the stories. A new story comes along and Richard Rathbone will faithfully reproduce it, as if he's being evaluated by some parent or school teacher of whom he seeks the approval or hopes to get a good grade, a pat on the head.

All these people here who continue to persevere into believing and spreading the beautiful story of international law and evil Russians, they are simply obeying, analogous to what Etienne talked about with regards to Eichmann In Jerusalem. But it's even worse in a way, this evil is even more banal. They are not actively involved, their lives do not depend on it, they're not even a party in the conflict, but still, they obey. Even if they perhaps can't do anything about it, they can afford to be less slavishly supportive and seek to be more neutral, to strive for peace. But they don't. They obey.

When, at the end of this particular conflict, the full scale of the result of your obedience and 'support' for 'Ukraine' has become undeniable, and the comparison of that result to what could have easily been achieved if enough people had resisted the beautiful story is as clear as a blue sky, some of you will be kindly asked to not ever discuss war or politics in this part of the forum, others will not be asked kindly, and a handful will be banned from this forum forever.

And then you can go believe in and spread about the next beautiful story, somewhere else. And never learn anything about how wars work, playing your banal little role in making them happen.