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Author Topic: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes  (Read 6979 times)

ClimateChange

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I know the focus of this board is on the Arctic, but I wish more people would take note of the dramatic changes that are occurring right here in America. Yet it's a common misbelief that climate change is on hiatus or not having the impact here that it is in the Arctic. The models play into this misbelief because they don't match up with what the real trends show. Part of the problem is everybody alive today was born into a globally-warmed world, so our perception of normal is already skewed.  If we could invent a time machine to transport people back to 1810 (or even 1860 for that matter) when the earth's atmospheric concentration of CO2 was only very slightly elevated by humanity, this would eradicate a lot of the denialism or confusion about global warming. Because the records that survive from this era disclose that the climate from that era would be so starkly different from the one today.

Here in northeast Ohio, for instance, it no longer gets cold in the winter. In fact, since the 1960s, the annual extreme wintertime minimum temperature has been increasing on average 2 to 3 degrees every ten years! And this is not an urban heat island effect, these trends are also documented at rural and suburban sites. This winter, widely regarded as a cold winter in the popular opinion, media, etc. never even reached zero. Historically, temperatures below zero would occur on 5 to 10 days a winter, now they occur less than one time per winter and rapidly they are disappearing from existence.

What this suggests to me is that global warming is progressing much faster than is being realized when one looks solely at the global temperature data sets. It also suggests that there are other factors at work here. The scientific research often focuses on how the Great Lakes will be affected by climate change. There should be more focus on how the Great Lakes will affect global warming trends. Like in the Arctic, I suspect that the eventual loss of wintertime ice cover on the lakes will greatly increase global warming and that's what we're seeing in the loss of extreme cold in the region. By contrast, weather models erroneously suggest that summer temperatures will increase more than winter in this part of the world. The Lakes are rapidly warming -- faster than nearby land air temperatures, in fact, due to the change in ice behavior. Lake Erie is icing out several weeks earlier than it used to, and in recent years this has led to unprecedented spring and summer water temperatures. Eventually I think it will reach a tipping point where the water temperature gets extremely hot (90+) during the summer and stays warm (40+) all winter long. This will cause a dramatic change in the climate of the surrounding areas.

It's worth noting that if current trends persist (i.e. a 2-3 degree increase in extreme winter time minima ever ten years), the coldest temperature recorded wouldn't be much below 30 by the early 22nd century. Unfortunately, global warming is expected to increase in speed and intensity during that period due to increased emissions, so it may start to warm even more rapidly. I suspect the climate of Cleveland may resemble that of present-day Miami by 2100 or so (assuming an 800 ppm+ CO2 atmosphere). A more appropriate comparison would be the Eocene era climate of Wyoming, when fossil evidence shows crocodiles and palm trees dwelled in that state. The only reason even the hothouse Eocene era could support that was due to the presence of a large, prehistoric body of water which modified the continental climate of the region -- just like we'll see with the Great Lakes in the future!

ccgwebmaster

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2013, 02:35:30 PM »
I know the focus of this board is on the Arctic, but I wish more people would take note of the dramatic changes that are occurring right here in America.

One of the things I'm happy about this forum for is that it isn't just about the Arctic and there is apparently room on the edges to discuss all sorts of other topics, even where the relationships are rather convoluted and tenuous. I think it fair to say there is already plenty of discussion about changes in America - and to some extent other parts of the world (if you read through posts).

I would like to say America is not the only part of the world experiencing climate change and we would do well to take a whole world view on this. If your wish is that more Americans take notice of what is happening in their own country (and the world...) - I understand - if it is that people who have nothing to do with America take more notice of American problems, I cannot agree - America already gets a disproportionate amount of attention globally at the cost of poorer people in many nations.

This is first and foremost a global problem, given that no nation has an opt out. By any measure there are other extremely important global players besides America, and from a humanitarian point of view there are many other people less advantaged in trying to deal with the consequences of all this.

[EDIT] I'd like to clarify that a bit - my feeling is that at least half the population of the planet is underrepresented (for example, India, China, Africa) in terms of our awareness in western nations (is there anyone in the forum from any of those parts of the world?). Given that this is a global problem I think tribal self interests are a threat to meaningful action (in the sense that no action is meaningful if the outcome is ultimately failure).

[EDIT] I've followed up on that theme in a more appropriate thread here (https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,192.msg6644.html#msg6644). I don't want to detract from the great lakes as a valid topic - apologies for the misdirection (and any element of peevishness about being inundated with US centric news/information/material).
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 06:12:04 PM by ccgwebmaster »

TerryM

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2013, 10:04:34 PM »
ccg


i think Climatechange may have a point re. the changes that the Great Lakes may have on climate. My proximity to the lakes may be affecting my judgment, but it seems as though the state of such large bodies of water might affect weather as far away as James Bay or even Southern Greenland? If so it's probably of more than local concern.


Terry


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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2013, 11:15:45 PM »

...........i think Climatechange may have a point re. the changes that the Great Lakes may have on climate. My proximity to the lakes may be affecting my judgment, but it seems as though the state of such large bodies of water might affect weather as far away as James Bay or even Southern Greenland? If so it's probably of more than local concern.
Terry

Terry, I remember Dr. Jeff Masters on Wunderground discussing this issue in a post sometime in 2012.  Other than this past winter of 2013, recent years have much reduced ice levels which provides more water vapor to fuel "lake effect" snow events.

We are entering a completely new climate regime globally.  One which may continue to change more frequently than decadally.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 02:03:41 AM by OldLeatherneck »
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ghoti

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2013, 01:46:51 AM »
Apparently the lack of winter ice on Lake Superior has resulted in inbreeding of the wolf population on Isle Royale. Wolf migration used to happen over the ice in the past keeping the gene pool somewhat more diverse.

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2013, 10:19:43 AM »
I was born in the midwest and had noticed, in an idle way, during my teenage years, a lessening of snow during winter.  My dad grew up on the very northern (US) edge of Lake Superior, and has all kinds of observations on how the past logging has completely changed the populations of tree growth (now they are all "junk" trees, ie: soft pine) based on his grandpa's experience of what it used to look like.  The "blowdown" in the Gunflint Trail a few years ago was startling to many people, and the fire danger up there is still extreme. 

EDIT: In regards to the great lakes, there is a lot of concern.  They are a huge source of fresh water that, in addition to being increasingly populated by invasive exotic species, are also under pressure to export that water as far as Los Angeles (in some forums).   The water wars will commence unless we come to our senses.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 10:56:42 AM by Anonymouse »

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2013, 11:34:55 AM »
ccg:

Your points are all very valid.  The world should be up on the CC issue.  But if the states are starting to talk about this, it is a good thing. They are responsible for most of this mess up until now.  But if the rest of the world is to be included in this conversation, they need to talk.  This forum is a place for that.  It is easy to start a thread, but less easy to keep it alive.  Personally, I would welcome a discussion dedicated to observations from people who live in less-represented areas of the world.
I am still unwilling to link to this site in other places, though, for obvious reasons.

Tigertown

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2017, 07:36:40 PM »
The lakes seem to have retained a little warmth from last summer, the same as other bodies of water have recently. I read that a cold blast froze pretty much everything over last February in just a matter of a few days. May not be as likely this year, even with all the Arctic air that is escaping. Earth NS shows most surface temps. to be around 40 C.
NOAA Report:

JR-ice

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2017, 08:34:42 PM »
As a resident of Syracuse NY, this topic hits close.  "Lake effect" snowstorms (and rainstorms) impact us tremendously, even though we are not a typical shoreline Great Lakes city.  Higher lake temperatures means more opportunities for snow to come streaming from as far away as Superior, across northern Huron, then across Ontario to be dumped into upstate New York.  I also feel like the winters as not as cold as when I was a kid.  It used to get so cold, that you would wake up to the sound of the trees "cracking."  It still gets cold, but just not for as long.

For me, at least, it seems like the biggest impact of climate change in this region to this point has been an increase in extremes and variability.  The drought/heat in summer and inconsistent snow cover in winter is extremely hard on the plant and animal life here.

I guess it remains to be seen if an Arctic blast can change things on the lakes this winter...

wdmn

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2019, 09:46:21 PM »
I will attempt to restore this thread over the coming weeks.

I intend to post updates on Great Lakes water temperature and freezing season, as well as other related information, which might be of interest to some on the board.

Wang, J., X. Bai, H. Hu, A. Clites, M. Colton, and B. Lofgren, 2012: Temporal and Spatial Variability of Great Lakes Ice Cover, 1973–2010. J. Climate, 25, 1318–1329, https://doi.org/10.1175/2011JCLI4066.1

https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/10.1175/2011JCLI4066.1

Abstract: "In this study, temporal and spatial variability of ice cover in the Great Lakes are investigated using historical satellite measurements from 1973 to 2010. The seasonal cycle of ice cover was constructed for all the lakes, including Lake St. Clair. A unique feature found in the seasonal cycle is that the standard deviations (i.e., variability) of ice cover are larger than the climatological means for each lake. This indicates that Great Lakes ice cover experiences large variability in response to predominant natural climate forcing and has poor predictability. Spectral analysis shows that lake ice has both quasi-decadal and interannual periodicities of ~8 and ~4 yr. There was a significant downward trend in ice coverage from 1973 to the present for all of the lakes, with Lake Ontario having the largest, and Lakes Erie and St. Clair having the smallest. The translated total loss in lake ice over the entire 38-yr record varies from 37% in Lake St. Clair (least) to 88% in Lake Ontario (most). The total loss for overall Great Lakes ice coverage is 71%, while Lake Superior places second with a 79% loss. An empirical orthogonal function analysis indicates that a major response of ice cover to atmospheric forcing is in phase in all six lakes, accounting for 80.8% of the total variance. The second mode shows an out-of-phase spatial variability between the upper and lower lakes, accounting for 10.7% of the total variance. The regression of the first EOF-mode time series to sea level pressure, surface air temperature, and surface wind shows that lake ice mainly responds to the combined Arctic Oscillation and El Niño–Southern Oscillation patterns."

Image one below: "Weekly time series of LIA for (a)–(f) each of the six lakes and (g) total Great Lakes during the period 1973–2010. Units for lake ice area are km2 (left vertical axes) and fraction divided by the lake surface area (right vertical axes)."

Image two below: "Annual-mean lake ice area for (a)–(f) each of the six lakes and (g) total Great Lakes ice anomaly during the period 1973–2010. The linear lines are the trend in annual lake ice coverage calculated from the least squares fit method. Unit for the vertical axes is km2."

Ktb

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2019, 10:06:55 PM »
For those interested in the history, and current and future problems of the Great Lakes, you should read The Death and Life of the Great Lakes by Dan Egan.

Absolutely fascinating book covering a range of topics related to the Great lakes, including invasive species, extinction events, purposefully introduced species for game, and more.
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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2019, 03:30:31 PM »
Yes, water levels are much higher recently.  This contrasts with the much lower levels during the first decade of this century.  Due to the bottleneck in southeast Michigan, outflow is greatly restricted.  Hence precipitation (largely snowfall) has a larger effect on lake levels that most others.  Most locals consider low levels to be the greater concern.

bbr2314

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2019, 09:53:09 PM »
Yes, water levels are much higher recently.  This contrasts with the much lower levels during the first decade of this century.  Due to the bottleneck in southeast Michigan, outflow is greatly restricted.  Hence precipitation (largely snowfall) has a larger effect on lake levels that most others.  Most locals consider low levels to be the greater concern.
I don't think it is coincidental that 2012/13 marked the state change here. I wonder how damaging another few years of increasing levels would be? (or, permanently increasing levels). 12" here and 12" there, suddenly you have 2'+ of what is essentially localized sea level rise (rather, lake level rise) in the span of only a decade.

bbr2314

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2019, 09:57:57 PM »
This is actually something I had not even considered or fathomed possible. But how bad would another few inches on top of the current situation be? We may soon find out. Erie is already 5" above its all-time record for May, Michigan and Huron are 2" below, Superior is 2" above, and Ontario is even. This is essentially rapid / potentially catastrophic SLR in action. I would imagine it would only take another very bad winter for things to become "catastrophic" instead of merely record-setting.

https://www.lre.usace.army.mil/Missions/Great-Lakes-Information/Great-Lakes-Water-Levels/Water-Level-Forecast/Weekly-Great-Lakes-Water-Levels/


Shared Humanity

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2019, 02:22:00 PM »
The water level of the Great Lakes rises and falls seasonally and the longer term trend of the Lake Michigan does not suggest imminent catastrophe.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 03:12:32 PM by Shared Humanity »

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2019, 12:07:17 AM »
I don't know if this is AGW, but Toronto island homes are flooding:
https://toronto.citynews.ca/video/2019/05/23/homes-on-toronto-islands-starting-to-flood/
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Shared Humanity

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2019, 08:00:49 PM »
Commute along Lake Michigan (live in Chicago) to get to work. The breakwaters that serve to protect the shoreline in places are nearly covered with water.

vox_mundi

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2019, 07:55:03 PM »
Great Lakes at Highest Water Levels Ever Recorded for Month of May
https://weather.com/news/news/2019-06-03-great-lakes-highest-levels-flooding-may

Waves crashing over sea walls.

Water flooding homes and businesses.

Docks and marinas underwater.

Fish swimming on what used to be dry land.

This is the scene around the Great Lakes, particularly Lake Ontario and Lake Erie, as every one of the Great Lakes are at their highest levels ever recorded for the month of May.


The problem has been ongoing throughout the spring, but reached critical levels in May. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers in Detroit said Lake Ontario rose an additional 18 inches last month alone, putting it 24 inches higher than it was at the same time last year. Lake Michigan-Huron rose 9 inches, Erie rose 6 inches and Superior rose 5 inches. Those lakes were all 9 to 13 inches higher than a year ago, and each of the Great Lakes was between 1 to 6 inches higher than ever recorded for the month of May.

Additionally, record high water levels are possible on all the Great Lakes and Lake St. Clair this summer.




https://www.lre.usace.army.mil/Missions/Great-Lakes-Information/Great-Lakes-Water-Levels/Water-Level-Forecast/Weekly-Great-Lakes-Water-Levels/

While the higher waters improve shipping channels and allow bigger boats to go through, they wreak havoc on businesses and property owners along the shoreline. Parts of Toronto and Detroit have flooded, as well as other communities in Michigan, Ohio, New York and Pennsylvania.

The situation becomes even more dire when heavy winds push waters up onto the shoreline and into streets, businesses and homes. ... “That causes erosion, that causes the soil to slough away, so people can actually lose their property, inches and inches of their property, and over time that adds up,” Domske said.

... The high water levels on Lake Superior are manageable, but only if the forecasters are wrong about the lake's projected rise, Capt. Donald Kilpela Jr. said.

Right now, only a few docks in his small, Upper Peninsula home of Copper Harbor are submerged by the swollen lake. ... the Upper Peninsula community can weather the record-high Lake Superior water level, but only if the lake holds fast.

"It cannot go another inch higher," said Kilpela Jr., who operates The Isle Royale Queen IV ferry. "Then things get really compromised."

The lower Great Lakes are impacted even more because of water levels flowing down from the upper lakes, she added.

... A recent study also found the Great Lakes region was warming faster than the rest of the country, leading scientists to predict that flooding will only become worse in coming years.

https://twitter.com/sydneydschaefer/status/1128324054111477762
https://twitter.com/john_kucko/status/1131510760134381568

----------------------

How much extra water is in Lake Erie now at its record high? - 79 days of flow over Niagara Falls
https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/2019/06/how-much-extra-water-is-in-record-high-lake-erie-79-days-of-flow-over-niagara-falls.html



Picture all the water that powerfully flows over the Niagara Falls at any one time.

It would take doubling that flow for nearly three months to bring Lake Erie back down to normal levels.


That’s one way to get a handle on just how much extra water is in Lake Erie. Another way is to picture the entire state of Ohio covered by a half-foot of water.
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Klondike Kat

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2019, 09:34:49 PM »
Yet, it was a mere decade ago that climate change was thought to have caused the record low water levels in the great lakes.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071230093533.htm

vox_mundi

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2019, 10:45:24 PM »
From your source, KK:


Quote
... "We cannot be certain that the present observed water level drop is caused by factors related to global climate change, or that it portends a long-term problem," the study states. But the ongoing decline in water levels make it "prudent to include lower lake levels in future management planning," the researchers note.[/size][/font][/color]
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Tom_Mazanec

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« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 10:07:54 PM by Tom_Mazanec »
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2019, 08:58:41 PM »
https://www.mlive.com/news/muskegon/2019/08/climate-change-could-trigger-drastic-swings-in-great-lakes-water-levels.html
Michigan may not get a break anytime soon from high lake levels wreaking havoc across the state, but when it does, the pendulum likely will swing the other way.
That’s according to researchers with the University of Michigan, who say climate change is behind heavy precipitation that has engorged the Great Lakes as well as water tables throughout the state.
It also will be behind periods of dry weather in coming years that will result in low water levels, said Richard B. Rood, a professor in U-M’s Department of Climate and Space Sciences and Engineering.

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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2019, 11:59:23 PM »
Quote
If you asked me a few months ago about 2017 being a once-in-a-lifetime event, I would have agreed. But this past spring the water levels of Lake Ontario were higher than two years ago. The beach was under water, the road leading to it submerged, and the marshland had joined the bay. And my grandson and I couldn’t bike to the next town, so no ding-ding.
A once-in-a-lifetime scenario has now happened twice in three years and just last week the area returned to normal. But the summer is almost over.
Something is going on here. The city has people pumping water out of the beaches, thousands of sandbags hold off rising water levels, which is why the Toronto Islands were closed again this year, and because I can’t do my route and we can’t get to the ding-ding, it’s personal.

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/2019/08/19/washed-out-family-bike-ride-a-climate-change-harbinger-for-all.html
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 11:07:06 PM by Neven »
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2019, 04:46:04 PM »
Tom,
Plagiarism is using other's text and presenting it as your own, like you did just above.  When quoting material, quote it! (There is even an "Insert Quote" tool.)  No wonder you got in trouble on other forums (as you indicated someplace on the ASIF). 

Do you have any opinion about what you posted?  Does this parallel your experience? Do you think it's sad?  Does this information build on or contrast to a particular previous post?  Not every post requires personal commentary, but probably most posts should include something

I recall learning in high school journalism class that quoting others' work and commenting here and there basically makes it legal.  Quoting without commenting makes it potentially a copyright violation.  This is different from what you did - no evidence of a quote can be found in your last post.

Edit:  A post script:   I believe frequent posters have a responsibility to set high standards, and therefore reach out.  (Yup - that's my belief, and not necessarily anybody else's.)
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 10:36:01 PM by Tor Bejnar »
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blumenkraft

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2019, 05:15:33 PM »
Sigh, whatever Tom does, he gets backlash.  :-[

Quoting without using the quotes feature is a common thing, even on this forum. I agree it's not correct, quotes should be marked as such but why is it worth mentioning when Tom does it while others do it all the time too?

I disagree that information or likes shared need a commenting per se.
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2019, 06:15:47 PM »
I frequently do not go to links, so do not experience how frequently technical plagiarism happens on the ASIF.  My journalism training says "Just don't do it."  My scientific training says "Don't ever do anything that looks like it." That Tom wrote on the ASIF (someplace) that it was a problem on some other forum in his experience influenced my writing a public post. 

So, why plagiarize?

Even starting "From the article:" and then (without other comment or quote marks or quote windows) copy paste would be better practice.

Quoting (without quotes, etc.) an article that starts "If you asked me …" sure makes it look like the poster is the author of those words.  I checked to see if Tom was the author of the article; they don't appear to be the same person.   Jerry Amernic lives in Canada while Tom Mazanec is based in Ohio.
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blumenkraft

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2019, 06:53:46 PM »
Let's agree on 'not correct' instead of 'plagiarism', ok?  ;)
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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2019, 07:15:04 PM »
Well, yes, it is not correct. But the specific term for that kind of failure to be correct is in fact "plagiarism."

To wit:

Quote
... All of the following are considered plagiarism:

    turning in someone else's work as your own
    copying words or ideas from someone else without giving credit
    failing to put a quotation in quotation ...
(emphasis added)

https://www.plagiarism.org/article/what-is-plagiarism
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2019, 11:07:29 PM »
I've added the quote tags for Tom.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

oren

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2019, 11:56:53 PM »
Just recently Tom started adding short quotes along the links he posts, which I found a marked improvement as I rarely click the links. Next on the agenda is marking these quotes as quotes. But don't throw the baby with the bathwater, these frequent updates in various threads are quite useful.

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2019, 12:59:47 AM »
How do you use this quote tool?

Yeah, I found it.
Thanks.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 01:14:46 AM by Tom_Mazanec »
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2019, 04:55:40 AM »
Wonderful! :)
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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2019, 02:36:21 PM »
If I actually were plagiarizing, I would hardly put a link to the source article right after it.
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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2019, 07:20:27 PM »
I understand people who list a lot of references sometimes (inadvertently?) plagiarize referenced papers, but it would certainly be odd with only one reference!  Yes, I never believed you intentionally plagiarized: you were just getting interesting material onto the ASIF, with unintended consequences (me!  ::)).  I'm glad Wili offered a definition of the behavior (that includes with or without intent possibilities).
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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2019, 09:38:20 PM »
Tom--I, for one, hope you keep posting. Many of your titles and links are quite interesting to me.

ALSR similarly started by dumping a lot of links. With some prompting, we got him to indicate what it was he found particularly interesting from each link, with sufficient (properly quoted) text included to make clear what the piece was about. I consider him to be among the most important posters on this forum now. You might look at some of this posts for some points on how to make your contributions even more valuable to us all.

Thanks ahead of time for future posts. (And yes, plagiarism is still plagiarism, whether it is intentional or not. But as a once-upon-a-time teacher of writing, I would generally be more lenient to students who were doing it by accident, which were most of them, since they were mostly sophomores still learning the basics.)

Best wishes,
wili
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2019, 01:23:39 AM »
I considered it obvious that those were quotes. I have seen others do quoting the same way here. And you could send a PM to the person if you think it is wrong. We are getting a little nasty sometimes here.
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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2019, 02:48:03 AM »
Great Lake dwarfs sea-level rise. Water is up 6 feet
https://www.eenews.net/stories/1061024613
Quote
Waves crashing against the jetty at South Haven, Mich., where water levels on Lake Michigan are breaking records. Worldwide/Newscom

GRAND HAVEN, Mich. — Streets are flooded in "Coast Guard City, USA," and the maritime rescue force is responding to dangerous events not seen for decades on Lake Michigan.

Boats ramming breakwalls and other objects hidden below the lake surface. People and pets nearly swept off piers by crashing waves. Swimmers fighting riptides that have drowned 30 people so far this year. Beach walkers becoming trapped between pounding surf and cliff-like dunes.

Welcome to the nation's "Third Coast," where climate change is fueling conditions that have turned the Great Lakes into the erratic high seas of the Midwest.
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Shared Humanity

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2019, 03:10:53 PM »
In Chicago, there are stretches of shore line where the water edge is now covering grass of lakefront parks.

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2019, 10:57:52 AM »
I got called out on the old Fourth Turning forum ~20 years ago for copyright violations for copying and pasting articles, so I have since just posted headlines and links. But I go called out here for not giving enough information, so I went to posting quotes from the articles. I did them just as posters like vox_mundi post excerpts, so I thought it was alright. Does anyone call vox_mundi a plagiarist? But I finally figured out how to use the quote feature.
I got called out for starting too many threads. So I tried shoehorning my posts into the threads, and then got PMs saying I'm not always on topic.
I already winnow down the articles on Daily Climate to what I consider important, but you don't like how many I still post, so I'll try to just post very important ones. I don't have time for putting in all this reading and posting to get this grief.
I've tried to be a good poster, but I'll be damned if I can figure out how to please you all.
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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2019, 11:10:33 AM »
I've tried to be a good poster.

And you have done a great job with it.

You always follow the demands on posting etiquette even if they are harshly worded or even outright insulting. That's a remarkable display of patience.

Still, you will never please everyone i guess. Just keep doing your thing man. :)
Refugees welcome

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2019, 11:15:03 AM »
I've tried to be a good poster.

And you have done a great job with it.

You always follow the demands on posting etiquette even if they are harshly worded or even outright insulting. That's a remarkable display of patience.

Still, you will never please everyone i guess. Just keep doing your thing man. :)

+1
To post is to invite criticism, this is the nature of an online forum.
Tom has shown openness to criticism, and real efforts to post in ways that are helpful. 
I appreciate Tom's work.

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2019, 11:25:57 AM »
BTW, this is my first post on Sunday/Friday.
I used to give up the internet on Friday ("Friday remains a day of penitential observance") and Sunday ("Keep the Sabbath Holy"). Twenty years ago, that was a reasonable observance. But more and more of my life has gone online (television, music, email, etc.) Last night I was sick and could not post. That was the straw that broke the camel's back.
I guess its back to no meat Fridays and just the regular Sunday Mass (I also go each weekday morning, which is why I wanted to do something extra Sunday).
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oren

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2019, 01:05:30 PM »
Tom, please remember you can't please everyone. Online posting requires a somewhat thick skin and some deep breaths, even on a science-oriented forum. Also don't forget that the satisfied majority is mostly silent, while those that are unhappy will usually speak up. This skews the feedback. The "like" system was added as a way for people to show appreciation without unnecesaary posts. Looking at your Like count, it seems you have quite a few silent thanksgivers.
Btw, I can't imagine two days a week offline...
« Last Edit: August 25, 2019, 01:12:31 PM by oren »

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2019, 01:38:50 PM »
Yeah, Oren. in 1999 it was one thing, comparable to giving up meat, something Catholics used to do weekly and often more (for example, Tuesdays in honor of the BVM). Now we are supposed to replace abstinence with something comparable if we eat meat.
Now going offline is like living without electricity. Yeah, maybe Queen Victoria lived without electricity, but it is a lot harder today.
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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2019, 02:17:19 PM »
Yes, I know the high levels of the Great lakes are not SLR, but they may give us a foretaste of what SLR will mean for the coastlines of the world.

Summer on the swollen Great Lakes
The lakes rose this year to levels not seen in decades. A 1,234-mile drive around one of them revealed what all that water has left behind — vanishing beaches, closed roads, new islands.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/24/us/great-lakes-water-levels.html
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Klondike Kat

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2019, 03:20:25 PM »
Tom,
I do not feel that the situation along the shores of the Great Lakes can be related to global SLR.  Just last decade, the water levels were so low that many residents were unable to launch their boats into the water.  A few decades prior, there was another issue with high water.  This is more a cyclical issue, and trying to tie it to global SLR is probably not a good idea.

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2019, 04:03:20 PM »
KK, just read what Tom wrote.

Quote
Yes, I know the high levels of the Great lakes are not SLR, but they may give us a foretaste of what SLR will mean for the coastlines of the world.
A foretaste of what SLR might feel like. Not tied.

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Re: Regional/Local Impacts of Global Warming in the Great Lakes
« Reply #48 on: September 04, 2019, 07:23:28 PM »
Here is more of my area's "this is what high water looks like"
'Bigger picture, it's climate change': Great Lakes flood ravages homes and roads
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/sep/03/great-lakes-region-flooding-climate-crisis
Quote
This summer, as rain relentlessly poured down on the Great Lakes region, Detroit declared a rare state of emergency. The swollen Detroit River had spilled into the low-lying Jefferson Chalmers neighborhood – an event not seen near this scale since 1986.

Volunteers sandbagged the area as the city’s overwhelmed sewer system spilled raw sewage into the river, which connects Lake Huron and Lake Erie. Across the channel from Jefferson Chalmers, water damaged the historic boathouse on Belle Isle, a 982-acre island park that remains partly shut down because of flooding.
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