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Freegrass

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Clean Green Transportation
« on: August 02, 2021, 01:25:26 AM »
To follow on from what I was saying on the Hydrogen thread, the prefab, submerged and tethered tunnels, pumped down to a vacuum, have been suggested several times for actual tunnelling projects.

Maglev already exists but always with linear motors and that is simply too expensive for very long distance.

As for gyroscopic forced precession, that lives in the category of "unproven" or too difficult.  But then so did the segway before it was finally delivered.

I don't believe we are going to be able to switch fuel easily for aviation.  Ships simply take too long and trains on rails burn a lot of power.

It was just a putting together of several ideas and adding something else which was a what if.

Happy to drop it here.

However in policies and solutions there will need to be some really radical thinking to get us out from aviation and shipping which will be the last holdouts of FF.

H2 is not really radical, it was dropped for good reason although modern materials would significantly lower the risk.
Sorry. This is completely off-topic here. Better to put this in the Hyperloop thread! ::) :o ;D
Alcohol day... My jokes are probably getting worse by the minute... :-[ ;D 8)

Shall we make a long distance travel thread?
Quote
I don't believe we are going to be able to switch fuel easily for aviation. Ships simply take too long and trains on rails burn a lot of power.
I completely disagree with this statement! Ships used to be powered by the wind. And some ships are starting to use the wind again to burn less fuel.

I like the idea of small autonomous boats powered by the sun. Just put a few containers in them, and set them free... It'll take time, but some goods are not time constrained.

Switching aviation fuel is easy. We know how to do it. Making that fuel in a green way is the problem. But solutions are coming in the form of Hydrogen panels. Maybe they just need to charge people more to fly? Then those hydrogen panels would be build on a massive scale quickly...

Trains on rails are probably cheaper with electricity, otherwise we wouldn't have electrified that traffic years ago already... (I may need to be factchecked on this)
When factual science is in conflict with our beliefs or traditions, we cuddle up in our own delusional fantasy where everything starts making sense again...

Freegrass

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Re: Clean Green Transportation
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2021, 01:38:37 AM »
Moved over from The Green Hydrogen Economy thread.
saw a report on French tv .. saying that just to fuel flights from Charles de Gaulle airport with hydrogen would require a 5000sqkm wind farm , 1000sqkm solar farm or 16 nuclear power stations . Looks like infrastructure changes will cost us all we could gain .. if this is a true analysis of needs .
Couldn't find fuel use on Charles de Gaulles, but I did find this.
Quote
In 2020, due to the coronavirus pandemic, only 10.28 billion gallons of fuel were consumed by U.S. airlines, compared to a high of 18.43 billion gallons in 2007.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/197690/us-airline-fuel-consumption-since-2004/

20 000 000 000 gallon [U.S.] of aviation gasoline = 732 000 gigawatt hour
20 000 000 000 gallon [U.S.] of kerosene type jet fuel = 790 000 gigawatt hour
https://www.onlineconversion.com/energy.htm

How many 1gw nuclear power plants is that? 83?
732.000/24/365=83?

But no matter what, if we want to clean up air travel, I don't know of an alternative to H2. We'll probably have to use deserts filled with lots of hydrogen panels to make all that fuel.

But the numbers are mindboggling indeed...  :-\
That's why our planet is probably doomed...  :'(
When factual science is in conflict with our beliefs or traditions, we cuddle up in our own delusional fantasy where everything starts making sense again...

Sigmetnow

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Re: Clean Green Transportation
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2021, 03:04:06 AM »
Ships, planes, trains, cars/trucks, Boring tunnels, Hyperloop; hydrogen — they all involve different clean energy concerns.  Addressing each in their individual threads would make related discussions easier to find and follow, I feel.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Freegrass

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Re: Clean Green Transportation
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2021, 03:22:42 AM »
True, but they all intersect in some way as well, no? We need to rethink how we transport people and goods around the world. Dedicated threads can still be used for topic specific discussions. But when a debate gets complicated and intertwined, we can use this thread... Or not...
When factual science is in conflict with our beliefs or traditions, we cuddle up in our own delusional fantasy where everything starts making sense again...

KiwiGriff

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Re: Clean Green Transportation
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2021, 06:50:41 AM »
The most Green transport is Human powered.
Cycling and walking.
Next directly wind powered
Sail's and kite's.
Problem is the wind does not necessarily blow in the right direction or strength all the time.
Directly using  Solar PV has the issue it is not possible to produce enough energy to move reasonable loads  for the sq meterage of panels you can have on any given machine and the sun only shines in daytime .
Next would be using renewable energy to produce a combustible fuel.
Hydrogen, Ammonia or some such or storing renewable energy in some sort of battery.
Batteries do not have enough energy density to power long distance freight or air transport.
So its fuel we need for air or oceanic transport   ...
Both already the topic of threads .
 
 

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BeeKnees

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Re: Clean Green Transportation
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2021, 09:45:53 AM »
The most Green transport is Human powered.
Cycling and walking.

Electric Bikes win on all measures,  when powered by renewable energy ( and pedal power) they consume less energy per mile than any other method, including a human consuming food to power a standard bike. 

It shows that we shouldn't pigeonhole and assume there is only one answer, shipping for example. Solar panels, wind when favorable, hydrogen\ammonia and mandating slower journey times can all be combined to provide a solution because with such a large object every little saving makes a difference. 

I don't believe Aviation will be one size fits all, it increasingly looks likely that short haul will be dominated by battery power with the newer and lighter sodium batteries favourite to win out. 
« Last Edit: August 02, 2021, 09:52:13 AM by BeeKnees »

NeilT

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Re: Clean Green Transportation
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2021, 04:08:41 PM »
Very true, but I haven't seen anyone cycle over the atlantic yet.  People also don't take ships over the Atlantic either, not for holidays, unless the journey is a cruise.

In order to replace long haul flights, there needs to be a fast and fuel efficient way of getting around the world and, in the modern world, simply saying "don't fly" is not going to work.  Our world is too integrated.  Granted don't fly gratuitously is more possible.

There is a reason why ships stopped sailing and started using engines.  It comes down to the English phrase "When your ship comes in".  Quite literally, people traded via ship and around the world exchanging modern manufactured goods for furs of exponentially more value.  Or gems etc.

But when your "ship" takes 3-6 months to return with your profits, if it returns at all (not all sailing ships did), then you could make your profit.

Today, in a connected and fast moving world, going back to sail is never really going to work.

If we want to have clean green transportation, then we need to move forward to a technological clean green transportation.

I put out there the idea of a submerged floating tunnel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submerged_floating_tunnel

On top of that I added the vactrain

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vactrain#:~:text=A%20vactrain%20(or%20vacuum%20tube,partly%20evacuated%20tubes%20or%20tunnels.

Which also uses maglev.

The problem I see is the only maglev train built has an induction track, which may be viable for a few hundred miles but I can't see it being possible for thousands of miles.

Norway has finally decided to go with a floating tunnel.  Nobody has yet decided to go with a vactrain, but the hyperloop is still out there as a possible.

If we want to get out of air and sea surface transport and remove the emissions of both, we're going to have to make some hard decisions and follow them through.
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Clean Green Transportation
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2021, 05:27:45 PM »
Trans Atlantic Peddle Power

The longest journey by amphibious bicycle is 2,371 km (1473.27 miles) and was achieved by Ebrahim Hemmatnia (Netherlands/Iran), who cycled the Atlantic ocean, from 22 November 2014 to 29 January 2015.

Ebrahim travelled on his self-made 'Boat Bike' - a pedal-powered vehicle that can be cycled on land and over water.


New definition of "bi", I guess!

See also https://gyaanipedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ebrahim_Hemmatnia
« Last Edit: August 02, 2021, 06:34:29 PM by Tor Bejnar »
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NeilT

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Re: Clean Green Transportation
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2021, 07:24:30 PM »
Struggling to fit it with my "10 day holiday flight to the sun" idea.  Perhaps I need to adjust my reality.... :P :P
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KiwiGriff

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Re: Clean Green Transportation
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2021, 06:08:13 AM »
From my sailing days Neil.
It is not the destination its the journey that counts .
At least That is what you tell your self five days into a thousand mile trip becalmed four hundred miles from the nearest land .
Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
Notebooks of Lazarus Long.
Robert Heinlein.

kassy

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Re: Clean Green Transportation
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2021, 05:03:39 PM »
In order to replace long haul flights, there needs to be a fast and fuel efficient way of getting around the world and, in the modern world, simply saying "don't fly" is not going to work.  Our world is too integrated.  Granted don't fly gratuitously is more possible.

I put out there the idea of a submerged floating tunnel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submerged_floating_tunnel

The floating tunnel:
Likely applications include fjords, deep, narrow sea channels, and deep lakes.

Clearly not an option for long sea voyages.

For both the best option is some austerity or at least factor in true carbon costs.

What some people seem to forget is that this AGW problem is also caused by us living way beyond our means. We already have to replace a lot so we have to be smart about that and figure out how to make the economy circular. This is probably boring compared to future tech but some things just need to be done first.

Shipping and planes together are small peanuts compared to energy/heating/all those cars.



Some things
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kassy

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Re: Clean Green Transportation
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2021, 05:04:46 PM »
Ships, planes, trains, cars/trucks, Boring tunnels, Hyperloop; hydrogen — they all involve different clean energy concerns.  Addressing each in their individual threads would make related discussions easier to find and follow, I feel.

Yes this discussion is redundant.
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