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Author Topic: the economy conundrum and the question of sustainable growth  (Read 56330 times)

johnm33

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Re: the economy conundrum and the question of sustainable growth
« Reply #100 on: September 14, 2014, 08:42:03 PM »
All of the above are false talking points until the problem of money creation is understood. Money is created as debt, which may be recycled, but is never paid back, if it was that money would dissapear. Take QE the banks were all bust and needed to be bailed out how was that done? GOV borrowed the money, where from? the banks. How many GOV bonds have been generated in this process, trillions, all new money which GOV now owes the banks. The banks only bring  bookeeping to this deal, [they never had or needed any 'money'] and for that we pay them interest forever on the 'money' they create when GOV agrees to issue bonds in return for access to their credit [debt] network. Since no debt can be resolved without that 'money' dissappearing from the economy we need perpetual growth to facilitate the interest payments on the accrued debt. Personal debt also needs to grow to create new 'money' to spend into the economy, yes new money just as when GOV creates bonds to facillitate credit we sign mortgages for the same access, the banks have no need of deposits to cover their loans as it is the loans which expand their deposits not the other way round. Read Michael Hudson, Hellen Brown [web of debt], Steve Keen or Bill Mitchell among others if you need more.
It would be far better for GOV to create citizen accounts where everyone would be allowed to draw out money, as debt [within limits], which they[GOV] themselves create [and do the bookeeping for] and lend that to citizens on the same terms currently available only to fabulously wealthy bankers. If that was done the 40% of every transaction that goes to the finance sector would begin to shrink GOV would recoup the money it issues from taxes and spend that instead of ever increasing it's debt to banks.
The only real growth we could have is in an economy increasingly dependent on intellectual /cultural exchange music/education/entertainment.

Bob Wallace

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Re: the economy conundrum and the question of sustainable growth
« Reply #101 on: September 14, 2014, 09:15:50 PM »
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But is there some fundamental reason to hold on to growth. Is it for some axiomatic reason always Good? Is 'downsizing' necessarily Bad? Why have growth as a goal in the first place?

Clearly there is a small percentage of individuals who could downsize a lot and not be harmed.  Take John McCain and his nine houses, for example.  But there are billions who need growth in order to have a comfortable lifestyle.  Decent housing, good health care, electricity, etc.

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Also, it's not at all clear that we have 35 years.

Why not?  Do we have any reliable data that says we'll run out of something that we can't replace in the next 35 years?  Do we have a reasonable basis for fearing we might?

Clearly we could transition (almost totally) off oil in a decade or two.  And we could cut use by a very significant percentage in five years or less.

What are we running out of in the next 35 years that we can't replace with a sustainable product?

Neven

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Re: the economy conundrum and the question of sustainable growth
« Reply #102 on: September 14, 2014, 11:12:13 PM »
What are we running out of in the next 35 years that we can't replace with a sustainable product?

A stable climate?  ;)
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Bob Wallace

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Re: the economy conundrum and the question of sustainable growth
« Reply #103 on: September 14, 2014, 11:58:18 PM »
We've changed the climate.  How much more we will change the climate is yet to be seen.  I think we've got a decent chance of staying under 2C based on the upcoming IPCC report.

Climate change could slow or increase growth.  Probably do some of each. 

Climate change could increase growth because as we work to minimize it we'll switch from fossil fuels to renewables which will mean not only carbon (almost) free electricity, but a lot of jobs and cheaper energy.  Personal vehicles will become cheaper to own and operate.

Climate change, if held to a non-catastrophic level, will cause significant portions of our population to relocate.  We'll abandon some wealth, in terms of infrastructure.  But we'll build more which will be a job creator and that economic activity tends to wash around economies creating more wealth/growth.