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Sigmetnow

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Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« on: July 02, 2024, 04:26:29 PM »
The massive growth of AI, digital information, and the Data Centers to handle it all, has created challenges involving increasing energy use even as it improves business and manufacturing efficiency, education and personal lives.  Energy use is particularly important here as we work to transition off of fossil fuels and move to clean, sustainable energy.

—- Tesla Gigafactory. Austin, Texas.
Tesla is leveraging their expertise in power and thermal cooling as they build out a data center for the AI which will support their cars and the Optimus humanoid robot.
 
Quote
Elon on Tesla's Giga Texas GPU cluster cooling system:
 
Sizing for ~130MW of power & cooling this year, but will increase to >500MW over next 18 months or so.
Aiming for about half Tesla AI hardware, half Nvidia/other.
Play to win or don’t play at all.
6/20/24, https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1803849373018644880
 
      —-
Warren Redlich
Elon is shooting for 500 MW or more for the Tesla Giga Texas data center
Both Zuckerberg and Altman talked about the extreme difficulty of building data centers over 100MW
“Zuckerberg added a lot of data centres are on the order of 50MW or 100MW, with bigger ones reaching capacity of 150MW.
But then when you start getting into building a data centre that’s like 300MW or 500 MW or 1GW … it’s not going to be next year,” said Zuckerberg.
   —-
Elon is shooting for more than 500 MW by end 2025
Altman and others think such large data centers will need new nuclear power plants
Elon will likely go solar with an absolutely massive deployment of solar and Megapacks at Giga Texas starting soon
500 Megapacks might be sufficient at an internal cost of perhaps $1M each. 1 GW of solar panels would need about 2500 acres of land with the panels costing about $700M.
   —-
I’d love to see Optimus trained to install solar panels to lower the cost, not just for this project but to dramatically increase the spread of solar worldwide
Less than $1B CapEx this year, less than $2B next year
6/20/24, 8:21 PM  https://x.com/wr4nygov/status/1803946361135779854
 
< Tesla’s biggest Megapack project in Australia is 1.3 GW;  500 MW Megapack and solar for TeslaAI is doable.
 
—-
Quote
NEWS: Tesla has now fully installed all six huge fans at Giga Texas for their new GPU data center cooling system. These fans will cool a $2B, 50,000-unit Nvidia GPU cluster and Tesla's own compute hardware in the coming months.
6/29/24, https://x.com/sawyermerritt/status/1807149025184874839
⬇️ pic.twitter.com/FBPgGHBlcn

Drone video of Giga Texas under construction as of June 29, 2024. It starts at the cooling unit.
➡️ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sjFH4qeHk0&feature=youtu.be

 
—- Direct Liquid Cooling
 
What is Direct Liquid Cooling?
Quote
Direct Liquid Cooling, which can be single-phase or two-phase, is a server cooling method that establishes a liquid cooling loop where the coolant absorbs thermal energy from components, including CPUs and GPUs, through conductive metal plates (cold plates) mounted over the hottest components. The coolant is sent to a coolant distribution unit (CDU), which dissipates the heat from the DLC loop to the primary coolant loop. Heat rejection options for DLC include installing a chilled water loop, an evaporative cooling tower or a dry cooler. After the liquid is cooled, it’s sent back to the cold plates, completing the cooling cycle.
https://jetcool.com/post/what-is-direct-liquid-cooling-for-ai-data-centers/

Quote
Charles Liang [CEO Supermicro. Engineer of the Green Computing Revolution]
 
Supermicro now ships DLC liquid cooling racks in volume to top AI customers, starting in May. Aiming to boost DLC adoption from <1% to 30%+ in a year, we invite the IT industry to embrace green computing for the AI revolution! Save Money, Save our Planet! #WeKeepITGreen
     —-
Thanks @elonmusk for leading the liquid cooling technology to large AI data centers! This may lead to preserving 20 billion trees for our planet❤️ pic.twitter.com/oJ48Dw3YVF 
6/27/24, https://x.com/charlesliang/status/1806386395562615138

 
===
 
Amazon Web Services is now worth more than that giant’s on-line marketing juggernaut.
 
===

 
—- Databases, not on the grid, not “in the cloud” — but above the clouds
 
As the cost of launching mass to orbit continues to decrease, and the ability to use “off the shelf” hardware in space increases, data centers in orbit could generate their own solar power rather than adding load to the grid. 
 
Axiom Space — a company that has trained and sent private astronaut crews to the International Space Station (ISS) in SpaceX Dragon ships;  and that is building a multi-module space station (the first of which will launch in 2026 and will initially be attached to the ISS)  — will install a demonstration project aboard the ISS this year.
 
Quote
Axiom plans to test their new designs on ISS [the International Space Station] this year. “We plan to fly and install an Axiom Data Center Unit (AxDCU) prototype onboard the ISS,” Aspiotis says. That prototype will “Test and demonstrate use cases for in-space cloud computing, AI/ML, data fusion and cybersecurity applications. The primary objectives are: (a) continue to develop the orbital data center market by demonstrating and proving the efficacy of in-situ cloud computing use cases, and (b) raise the technical readiness level of commercial and terrestrial-grade hardware operating in a space station environment.”

Space-based data centers would be independent of the grid, of course, and could harvest power through solar panels, or other sources. Aspiotis said that, “Thales Alenia in Europe is studying large-scale space data centers as a potential solution to environmental impacts associated with data center energy consumption on the ground, by migrating the infrastructure to space.”

In conclusion, Aspiotis says, “Axiom Space foresees orbital data centers becoming a long-term solution to offloading energy consumption on Earth. As launch costs continue to come down, and ISAM capabilities become more commonplace, the ability to construct and operate large-scale orbital data centers will be possible. Perhaps, orbiting space-based solar power facilities could be dual-used as orbital data center platforms: instead of beaming power to the Earth, consume the power in the orbital data center and beam data to and from Earth.”
https://floridamedianow.com/2024/05/axiom-space-plans-to-test-orbital-based-data-center-tech-on-iss-this-year/

Axiom Space Plans To Test Orbital-Based Data Center Tech on ISS This Year
https://floridamedianow.com/2024/05/axiom-space-plans-to-test-orbital-based-data-center-tech-on-iss-this-year/

Axiomspace.com   

——
⬇️ Part of the Giga Texas data center cooling unit under construction.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2024, 04:21:04 PM »
Google’s Emissions Shot Up 48% Over Five Years Due to AI
A new report shows that the artificial intelligence boom will test Silicon Valley’s climate commitments.
July 2, 2024
Quote
Google’s emissions climbed by almost half over five years, as the company has infused artificial intelligence throughout many of its core products — making it harder to meet its goal of eliminating carbon emissions by 2030, according to a new environmental report from the tech giant.

The annual report was released Tuesday and covers Google’s progress toward meeting its environmental goals last year. The Alphabet Inc. unit said its greenhouse gas emissions totaled 14.3 million metric tons of carbon dioxide equivalent throughout 2023. This is 48% higher than in 2019, the company said, and 13% higher than in 2022. Google said higher energy consumption at its data centers and emissions from its supply chain were to blame, and said its push to add AI to its products could make it more difficult to reduce emissions going forward.

“As we further integrate AI into our products, reducing emissions may be challenging due to increasing energy demands from the greater intensity of AI compute, and the emissions associated with the expected increases in our technical infrastructure investment,” Google wrote in the report.

For several years, the Mountain View, California-based company has said it plans to eliminate such emissions from its operations by 2030.

AI — and in particular generative AI, which takes in user inputs and spits out new content like text, images or songs — is extremely resource-intensive, as a recent Bloomberg News investigation showed. As the technology grows rapidly, more and more data centers are needed to build and run it, leading to surging power requirements.


Google is not the first major technology company to cite the rapid growth of AI as an obstacle to achieving environmental goals. In May, Microsoft Corp. said its carbon emissions climbed 30% since 2020, as the company increasingly invested in AI. The increase made that company’s target of getting to below net-zero emissions by 2030 even harder than it was when it announced its carbon-negative goal.

Sasha Luccioni, climate lead at startup Hugging Face Inc., said the data show tech companies weren’t anticipating the massive growth of AI when they set their environmental goals. “They couldn't have,” she said. “The baseline year in that Google report was 2019 — definitely not anticipating it.” Companies have been blindsided both by how much energy is required to build such technology, Luccioni said, and how much energy is required to run it.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-07-02/google-s-emissions-shot-up-48-over-five-years-due-to-ai
 
Link with access token here. 
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Bruce Steele

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2024, 06:06:28 PM »
Sig, I don’t know if you read Tim Watkins but he proposes that there is a material economy and a financial one. The material economy operates on energy, a large portion  of that energy is fossil fuels, and as limits to fossil fuel energy exist, that we use ever more energy to extract what is left and as a result there is less energy available to the rest of the economy even though extraction rate remains constant.
 If the new AI craze is extracting more and more energy from the fossil fuel reserves left it comes at the expense of some other part of the economy. So in addition to the extra energy it takes to pump our depleting oil reserves we have begun to waste it on chasing AI .
 So discretionary parts of the economy will shrink as people are forced to pay ever increasing amounts for food, shelter and other material things that are also dependent on energy, energy now going to the AI buildout. That is your AI is competing for energy needed to grow and transport food or build your house.
 The Calif. Casio duckcurve that was flattening due to battery uptake by homes and businesses is now growing a tail again. And my and many other people who have tried to help flatten the curve are shown to be bumps in the road to unlimited energy extraction. 

NeilT

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2024, 06:44:49 PM »
Bruce, AI is progress and it has been nirvana all my life.

What his happening today is like the huge battleships of the Navy between the 1800's and the end of the 20th century.  Eventually they built smaller, more effective and infinitely more dangerous ships to replace these dinosaurs with.

Equally the current challenge of creating AI by Extreme levels of compute will make way for other ways of helping an AI grow up.  Essentially they are trying to give AI decades of life experience in mere hours.  That takes a lot of energy.

Eventually they will come up with a model that is more efficient and less consumption.

Think about it this way, the Intel processors from the turn of the last century used far more power for thousandths of the compute capability.

Silicon life doesn't stand still, it will continue to evolve at a very rapid pace and the energy consumed by it will also fall.
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gerontocrat

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2024, 07:57:55 PM »
Just something else to ensure CO2 emissions will not go down this year and probably not next year.

& when AI has got "there" (what is "there"?) it will tell us "too late pal, you're fucked".
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
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Bruce Steele

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2024, 08:57:25 PM »
NeilT , I can’t prop up any virtues to counter nirvana. I chased nirvana too, none the better, none the worse. I read poetry, and spent forty years at sea. But nirvana is always something to pursue and yet never trust when it finally arrives.
 I believe energy isn’t limitless. Or not energy we can access. So again I think the energy going towards chasing nirvana will come from somewhere else. We waste so much energy now that we might not even notice as we tighten the belt a little and food prices rise, or housing costs rise but we are kinda rich and people elsewhere probably feel it as actual hunger. You and I don’t feel hunger and haven’t felt hunger unless experimenting with feeding ourselves.
 I believe in limits and those limits are approaching quickly, AI will speed up when we will run out of fossil fuel.
 Problem with nirvana , it is so damn fleeting

kassy

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2024, 09:12:44 PM »
Adding a lot of waste and then trying to that a bit more efficiently is not going to help.
We don´t need AI to tell us what to do because we already know enough. Would we do it if AI told us too? Questionable.

We will not run out of FFs but out of FF budget to keep things near 2C.

There are still millions of people who hardly ever use any fossil fuels that get dragged along in this.

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NeilT

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2024, 10:15:14 PM »
& when AI has got "there" (what is "there"?) it will tell us "too late pal, you're fucked".

Telling you something you already know??? ;D

Maybe people will believe it from AI if not from us?
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NeilT

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2024, 10:22:50 PM »
NeilT , I can’t prop up any virtues to counter nirvana. I chased nirvana too, none the better, none the worse. I read poetry, and spent forty years at sea. But nirvana is always something to pursue and yet never trust when it finally arrives.
 I believe energy isn’t limitless. Or not energy we can access. So again I think the energy going towards chasing nirvana will come from somewhere else. We waste so much energy now that we might not even notice as we tighten the belt a little and food prices rise, or housing costs rise but we are kinda rich and people elsewhere probably feel it as actual hunger. You and I don’t feel hunger and haven’t felt hunger unless experimenting with feeding ourselves.
 I believe in limits and those limits are approaching quickly, AI will speed up when we will run out of fossil fuel.
 Problem with nirvana , it is so damn fleeting

It is indeed.

The thing about progress is that you cannot just get off and stop.  You have to keep going with it and move forwards.

Imagine our society today if we had not moved to low energy solutions?  I believe, but don't ask me to prove it, that the reductions we have already made with low energy solutions already reduced our consumption by more power than we will add with AI compute.

Also more renewables will be brought into play to run these AI solutions.  Which means the energy budget does not expand as much as you may think.  Giga Texas is a case in point.  When they finish the building extension, they will fill the rest of the roof with solar panels.  Between the megapack farm and the roof panels it is unlikely that their AI datacentre will consume any additional energy at all.  Tesla is not the only company who realises that the cost of AI is not just the processors and the solution is the energy which is being donated free every day by the sun.

Rome decided that they didn't need to keep progressing.  They stagnated and in their fall they lost techniques like concrete which took over 1,000 years to recover.  Even though it was all documented and there to be found for those who understood what was written.

Whilst I agree that the energy cost now is high, the future benefit will outweigh any cost today and the power consumption will fall over time.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2024, 11:59:38 PM »
I believe energy isn’t limitless. Or not energy we can access.

Solar energy striking the Earth — at the surface — on land — equals in one hour about what we currently use in one year.  That’s about as close to limitless as makes no difference.

And the red boxes in the map below show the area of (our currently relatively inefficient) solar panels that would be needed to supply the World, the EU, and Germany. 
« Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 12:07:30 AM by Sigmetnow »
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Bruce Steele

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2024, 01:56:51 AM »
Sig, I recall the same meme, solar panels in the Sahara could power the earth , but several years old now. Do you suppose the energy demand of our AI buildout would require someone to refit the size of those squares of imaginary solar ? 
 BTW fossil fuel extraction is still increasing. And AI is growing along with the imaginary money supporting the stock market.
 Buy the trend.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2024, 02:31:50 AM »
Sig, We certainly see things differently. I said I wasn’t going to try virtue signaling so you can just think of someone crawling around in a field of buckwheat collecting seeds on a 90 degree day as efforts of a mad man. And everything else I say is countered by the millions wanting the new app. to 3D their dreams. 
 The difference I guess is that I can still walk away. I work pretty hard to maintain the skill set/ delusion. Getting all screen addicts out on their hands and knees working in the soil, well I’m not expecting converts.
 
 

interstitial

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2024, 02:48:53 AM »
The biggest problem is the data centers want to start operating in 1-2 years. We have lots of fossil fuel plants that operate at low capacity factors so the quickest solution is to burn more fuel. The IT community used to only talk about renewable energy. Generally they have lost that and now want the power at any cost to the environment. They are unwilling to wait any amount of time as they fear being scooped by others. They have gone from renewable advocates to renewable agnostics.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2024, 04:52:01 PM »
Sig, I recall the same meme, solar panels in the Sahara could power the earth , but several years old now. Do you suppose the energy demand of our AI buildout would require someone to refit the size of those squares of imaginary solar ?

• Rather more than a meme!
 
Here’s the math, compiled by members of the U.S. Department of Energy, the California Institute of Technology, and the Argonne National Laboratory:
 
https://www.sandia.gov/app/uploads/sites/153/2022/02/Solar-FAQs.pdf
 
See page 10.  The actual numbers:
Quote
This theoretical potential represents more energy striking the earth’s surface in one and a half
hours (480 EJ) than worldwide energy consumption in the year 2001 from all sources combined
(430 EJ).

• Of course all the world’s solar won’t be installed in the Sahara desert.  100 square miles of solar panels in the Nevada, Texas or Utah desert could power the entire US. 

• So then, suppose data centers result in a doubling, or even tripling, of our energy needs.  Double or triple the areas shown in that graphic — still quite doable.  The point is, we only need to cover a tiny bit of the earth’s surface with solar panels to meet our energy requirements.  Additionally, future solar panels will be even more efficient than today’s, requiring less area for the same amount of generation.

• Along with building those new data centers over the coming years, there will be an effort to make them more energy-efficient — purely for economic reasons, let alone environmental ones.  Tomorrow’s data centers will be different from today’s.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 04:58:09 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2024, 05:01:40 PM »
Sig, We certainly see things differently. I said I wasn’t going to try virtue signaling so you can just think of someone crawling around in a field of buckwheat collecting seeds on a 90 degree day as efforts of a mad man. And everything else I say is countered by the millions wanting the new app. to 3D their dreams. 
 The difference I guess is that I can still walk away. I work pretty hard to maintain the skill set/ delusion. Getting all screen addicts out on their hands and knees working in the soil, well I’m not expecting converts.

So then, you understand the need to build out renewables for the rest of us.  While you continue to enjoy the benefits of your own solar and battery installation.
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kassy

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2024, 06:31:09 PM »
He payed for that freeing up extra grid power for you. Now say thank you.

As one can see in the energy use graphs Gerontocrat posts the renewables are not yet replacing fossil fuels. They are covering growth in use for quite a bit but we are not near to replacing big parts of energy use.

So in this situation it is really too bad to waste lots of energy on things like cryptomining or many different AI toys, streaming services etc.
All the dreaming about some very utopian take on the future prevents you from seeing all the problems we are still having. Or maybe you prefer to ignore those and go all in with the future in the hope that someone will solve it then.

We are still making things worse and we are running out of carbon budget rapidly. That also changes the future even for people who just live on this planet but don´t use electricity.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2024, 08:01:21 PM »
He payed for that freeing up extra grid power for you. Now say thank you.
 
I paid for a grid-tied solar installation on my house.  You’re welcome.

Quote
All the dreaming about some very utopian take on the future prevents you from seeing all the problems we are still having. Or maybe you prefer to ignore those and go all in with the future in the hope that someone will solve it then.

We are still making things worse and we are running out of carbon budget rapidly. That also changes the future even for people who just live on this planet but don´t use electricity.

And all the bemoaning about how the sky is falling prevents you from accepting the approaching major disruptions, aptly described by Tony Seba and adoption “S” curves, and demonstrated by the space industry and the like.  In 2010 when battery prices were over $1,000/kWh, people called Seba crazy for his estimates of future battery prices below $100/kW — yet that’s exactly what happened!  “S” curves start slow, but then change becomes very rapid. 

We cannot be complacent;  tech advances don’t just happen, we have to work at them.  And we are.  But thinking that there will be no major tech sector disruptions between now and 2030, let alone 2035, is simply ridiculous.  Food, energy, and transportation advances are poised to radically change society.  And that’s not just me talking smack:
 
Quote
Technology disruptions already underway in the energy, transportation, and food sectors have extraordinary implications for climate change. These three disruptions alone driven by just eight technologies can directly eliminate over 90% of net greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions worldwide within 15 years. Market forces can be leveraged to drive the bulk of global GHG emissions mitigation because the technologies required are either already commercially available and competitive today, or can be deployed to market before 2025 with the right societal choices. The same technologies will also make the cost of carbon withdrawal affordable, meaning that moonshot breakthrough technologies are not required to solve the ‘Last Carbon Problem’ and go beyond net zero from 2035 onwards.
 
Our previous research has shown that disruptions of the energy, transportation, and food sectors are inevitable. Solar, wind, and batteries (SWB) will disrupt coal, oil, and gas. Autonomous electric vehicles (A-EVs) providing transportation-as-a-service (TaaS) will disrupt internal combustion engines and private vehicle ownership. And precision fermentation and cellular agriculture (PFCA) will disrupt meat, milk, and other animal products. The three disruptions are already unfolding simultaneously, and their implications for climate change are profound. Yet it will be up to us to decide whether or not we deploy these technologies worldwide rapidly enough to avoid dangerous climate change.
 
The greatest barrier to fighting climate change is therefore our mindset. Conventional thinking views emissions mitigation through a linear, reductive lens that fails to appreciate the character, speed, and dynamics of change in both natural systems and human systems. By failing to fully appreciate these systems dynamics, conventional models have tended to underestimate not only the threat of climate change itself, but also the potential of technology to address it. As a result, we have seen a consistent pattern of mistakes and corrections over time, where each year the underestimated threat of climate change is corrected in the direction of ‘worse than we originally thought’ while the underestimated potential of technology to address it is corrected in the direction of ‘better than we originally thought’. Conventional thinking has therefore wasted time, attention, and resources on an eclectic array of ‘Band-Aid’ approaches to solving climate change like subsidies and taxes, biofuels, clean coal, clean diesel and other superficial techno-fixes that merely treat symptoms rather than the underlying problem.
 
Instead, a simpler and more effective approach is to focus on a handful of key technologies that will transform the entire foundation of our economy. …
Much more here: ➡️ https://www.rethinkx.com/climate-executive-summary
« Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 08:13:52 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Bruce Steele

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2024, 08:56:25 PM »
Well data center electric use is projected to reach 9% of US total electric by 2030
https://www.eenews.net/articles/data-centers-may-use-9-percent-of-us-electricity-by-2030-report-finds/
Solar currently produces 3.9% of US total electric use.
So if solar doubles over the next five years it won’t produce enough to cover the expected e use of AI.
Solar is currently subsidized but why should taxpayers subsidize the likes of Oracle, Amazon, Google, Tesla, or the major players using all the solar produced at taxpayers expense and burning coal or whatever else they can get their hands on to make up the difference.
 We have been scammed .  Just try to get that message out to the masses.
 

Sigmetnow

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2024, 11:03:25 PM »
Solar is currently subsidized but why should taxpayers subsidize the likes of Oracle, Amazon, Google, Tesla, or the major players using all the solar produced at taxpayers expense and burning coal or whatever else they can get their hands on to make up the difference.
 We have been scammed .  Just try to get that message out to the masses.

Hold off on that message until you determine what percentage of the power for the “major players” is being supplied by wind and solar generation THEY paid for.  That they commissioned to be built, or installed themselves.  Industry has the strongest incentive to add new wind and solar generation, because it is CHEAPER, and thereby helps their bottom line.  Big industry = big push for more renewables.
 
Quote
Generating More Energy Than is Consumed
 
In 2023, Tesla solar owners generated enough zero-emissions electricity to power all Tesla locations, including manufacturing, support, research, sales, service and delivery locations-more than three times.

Quote
By year-end 2023, we had installed 46,500 kW of solar at our factories, with the largest installation at Gigafactory Texas. We will continue to add more renewable energy to serve our Tesla sites.
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gerontocrat

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2024, 12:51:18 AM »

The greatest barrier to fighting climate change is therefore our mindset. Conventional thinking views emissions mitigation through a linear, reductive lens that fails to appreciate the character, speed, and dynamics of change in both natural systems and human systems. By failing to fully appreciate these systems dynamics, conventional models have tended to underestimate not only the threat of climate change itself, but also the potential of technology to address it.

At the moment...
USA. Through a devil's brew of circumstances an unconstrained Trump Presidency is more likely than not. Fossil fuels advance; renewables, EVs constrained.
Europe. Populism advances. Fears grow that Europe's green deal will stall.
India. The dash for growth just about guarantees increased use of fossil fuels for some years to come.
The so-called developing countries. Transforming climate finance from pledges to real money is painfully slow. A poor country with fossil fuel reserves has little choice but to exploit them.

China. There is just a chance that China will break through the CO2 emissions reduction barrier by significant amounts by 2030.

In much of the world the mindset discussed above may well be reinforced for the next few years. As a result we have to put up with "the character, speed, and dynamics of change in ..... natural systems...... " (= rapid global heating).

And AI? I thought until recently that I would be decently dead and buried before the dreams of our BigTech Masters are realised. Unfortunately it's beginning to look like I might have to spend a few years living in their dreams. Bleah.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2024, 12:52:08 AM »
Well data center electric use is projected to reach 9% of US total electric by 2030
https://www.eenews.net/articles/data-centers-may-use-9-percent-of-us-electricity-by-2030-report-finds/
Solar currently produces 3.9% of US total electric use.
So if solar doubles over the next five years it won’t produce enough to cover the expected e use of AI.
Solar is currently subsidized but why should taxpayers subsidize the likes of Oracle, Amazon, Google, Tesla, or the major players using all the solar produced at taxpayers expense and burning coal or whatever else they can get their hands on to make up the difference.
 We have been scammed .  Just try to get that message out to the masses.
 


All energy is heavily subsidized pretending otherwise is nonsense.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2024, 01:03:18 AM »
No argument there , I never implied fossil fuel wasn’t subsidized. But if all the subsidies we put into solar are gobbled up in a spending frenzy on AI how does the electorate benefit?  Our jobs get replaced , our taxes benefit the effort and what again is the upside to Joe Schmoe ?
 

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2024, 10:49:04 AM »
No argument there , I never implied fossil fuel wasn’t subsidized. But if all the subsidies we put into solar are gobbled up in a spending frenzy on AI how does the electorate benefit?  Our jobs get replaced , our taxes benefit the effort and what again is the upside to Joe Schmoe ?
 

true

P-maker

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2024, 02:51:45 PM »
Interesting topic you have brought up here guys.

In this apparent exponential growth of data centre services, it might sound a bit outlandish to suggest some kind of regulation of the whole industry. In this part of the World, we are used to taxes. The highest on those activities we dislike the most in our society. Those we can understand will then get away with a little lower tax.

Trying at the moment to figure out what the most wasteful and useless use af data centres are across the Globe may take some consideration.

One recent example from this morning, when we drove back from a few weeks of recreation near the coast, was that my wife insisted on having the route planner/GPS-thing turned on 'just for comfort'. Previously, I would have argued that it would harm the mileage. After reading your comments, I just realized that this constant map viewing, updating traffic situations, recalculating routes etc. must cost a fortune in data centre services. Thus, one prime candidate would be to put a tax on silly use of map services, when you already know, where you are going.

A second example would be the constant exchange of pictures between family members 'just for comfort, again'. We know what our grand kids look like, and we know what a snotty nose looks like. Please put a tax on unnecessary use of both living and static pictures between family members.

A third object ready for taxation would be all the usual suspects such as crypto currencies...

Sigmetnow

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2024, 06:12:08 PM »
Interesting topic you have brought up here guys.

In this apparent exponential growth of data centre services, it might sound a bit outlandish to suggest some kind of regulation of the whole industry. In this part of the World, we are used to taxes. The highest on those activities we dislike the most in our society. Those we can understand will then get away with a little lower tax.

Trying at the moment to figure out what the most wasteful and useless use af data centres are across the Globe may take some consideration.

One recent example from this morning, when we drove back from a few weeks of recreation near the coast, was that my wife insisted on having the route planner/GPS-thing turned on 'just for comfort'. Previously, I would have argued that it would harm the mileage. After reading your comments, I just realized that this constant map viewing, updating traffic situations, recalculating routes etc. must cost a fortune in data centre services. Thus, one prime candidate would be to put a tax on silly use of map services, when you already know, where you are going.

A second example would be the constant exchange of pictures between family members 'just for comfort, again'. We know what our grand kids look like, and we know what a snotty nose looks like. Please put a tax on unnecessary use of both living and static pictures between family members.

A third object ready for taxation would be all the usual suspects such as crypto currencies...

… or posting comments to the internet?  🤔
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kassy

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2024, 07:29:34 PM »
And all the bemoaning about how the sky is falling prevents you from accepting the approaching major disruptions, aptly described by Tony Seba and adoption “S” curves, and demonstrated by the space industry and the like.  In 2010 when battery prices were over $1,000/kWh, people called Seba crazy for his estimates of future battery prices below $100/kW — yet that’s exactly what happened!  “S” curves start slow, but then change becomes very rapid.

We cannot be complacent;  tech advances don’t just happen, we have to work at them.  And we are.  But thinking that there will be no major tech sector disruptions between now and 2030, let alone 2035, is simply ridiculous.  Food, energy, and transportation advances are poised to radically change society.

One big problem is the timing.

We can not just wait for the big disruptions. For the carbon budget our FF output should be going down by 2025 and at this rate that is not going to happen. This cannot be fixed by big disruptions later.

The future will fix it is like someone will fix it later for politicians.

The outlook on energy and transport is quite good if we ignore the targets we need to hit. A lot of the rest is more complex. If you do not need workers do you need consumers?
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2024, 03:07:50 PM »
And all the bemoaning about how the sky is falling prevents you from accepting the approaching major disruptions, aptly described by Tony Seba and adoption “S” curves, and demonstrated by the space industry and the like.  In 2010 when battery prices were over $1,000/kWh, people called Seba crazy for his estimates of future battery prices below $100/kW — yet that’s exactly what happened!  “S” curves start slow, but then change becomes very rapid.

We cannot be complacent;  tech advances don’t just happen, we have to work at them.  And we are.  But thinking that there will be no major tech sector disruptions between now and 2030, let alone 2035, is simply ridiculous.  Food, energy, and transportation advances are poised to radically change society.

One big problem is the timing.

We can not just wait for the big disruptions. For the carbon budget our FF output should be going down by 2025 and at this rate that is not going to happen. This cannot be fixed by big disruptions later.

The future will fix it is like someone will fix it later for politicians.

The outlook on energy and transport is quite good if we ignore the targets we need to hit. A lot of the rest is more complex. If you do not need workers do you need consumers?

We are not waiting!  But a century’s worth of world-wide fossil fuel dependency can’t be eliminated overnight.
 
Scaling massive battery storage projects couldn’t happen until there was sufficient battery manufacturing.  Battery manufacturing couldn’t happen until there were sufficient lithium sources, refining was assured and prices normalized.  Now that they are… battery factories are springing up everywhere.  China churns out EVs.  And Tesla has just announced bigger, cheaper, and easier to install Megapacks for energy storage, and reopened its order page. Go, go, go!
 
Quote
This is how crazy Tesla Energy's battery storage deployment growth was in Q2 2024. Up 157% YoY, and up 132% QoQ
 
This is exactly how things look at the bottom of the S-curve.  Messy.  Even laughable at times, when small but very real trends are ignored, lost in the noise in global numbers.  That’s the way all trends start.

Technology which “can directly eliminate over 90% of net greenhouse gas emissions worldwide” only became feasible recently.  But there is no question that is the path we are moving on.  And even major disruptions, surprisingly, typically take only 10 to 15 years. For example, New York City switched from horses to cars in ten years.  See other examples in the graphs below. ⬇️

You prefer to be despondent and emphasize the 98% of the curve that has yet to be achieved, as though that proves the transition is not underway and nothing is being done about it.  Indeed, many here laughed at EVs when they were just 1 to 2% of sales, saying they would never amount to anything significant this decade.  Instead, I think it’s exciting to focus on that 1-2%, watching their challenges and successes as they grow; and even more exciting when I can be a part of advancing it myself in some small ways. 

Things are bad.  We’re working on it.  Things will get worse before they get better.  “We’ll work harder.”

Consider the second image below.  Is the glass:
A) Half empty
B) Half full
C) Completely full: half with water, half with air.
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kassy

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2024, 09:43:51 PM »
Quote
You prefer to be despondent and emphasize the 98% of the curve that has yet to be achieved, as though that proves the transition is not underway and nothing is being done about it.

No that is not my point.

The transition curve is one thing but the worlds emission budget before we are locked in for 2C is another thing. Limiting the amount of FFs emitted is limiting the worst peak, it is that simple.

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Sigmetnow

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2024, 12:59:49 AM »
Quote
You prefer to be despondent and emphasize the 98% of the curve that has yet to be achieved, as though that proves the transition is not underway and nothing is being done about it.

No that is not my point.

The transition curve is one thing but the worlds emission budget before we are locked in for 2C is another thing. Limiting the amount of FFs emitted is limiting the worst peak, it is that simple.

The quickest way to limit emissions is simply to make using fossil fuels unnecessary.

FF plant operators’ financial bottom lines have no entry for “because 2C”  — because their jobs, and hundreds more, depend on them ignoring that issue.  And their customers who depend on that FF energy won’t let them shut down, until there is a replacement source.

We are successfully forcing FF operators to shut down by building out renewables, as fast as we can, to make fuel burners obsolete.  So that is where we should focus our attention.
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kassy

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2024, 11:52:47 AM »
An even quicker way would be to actually agree on limits and work within them. This is not a popular solution but it would have prevented much more emissions. The total amount of emissions sets a limit on the outcome. Given the uncertainties we should have aimed low.

Quote
Climate change is an issue that lends itself to the "techno-fix" approach – in other words, it can be tempting to avoid making important changes to our behaviour because we think we can depend on technology to fix everything. This is known as the "mitigation obstruction" argument.
https://www.sciencealert.com/fusion-is-coming-but-are-we-ready-for-the-problems-it-could-cause

The article is on fusion but there are similarities.

Much of the technobabble is aimed at western consumers.

Changing all cars to EVs takes out the fuel use but not many other problems related to cars.
In energy use we are living beyond our means in the rich west so what if we first build the energy and then start wasting it?

All that still ignores the differences in profits and burdens across the globe. We do not need data centers to solve AGW in fact they make things worse. The people that want them just want their own AI to make money of it. Same as ever. Spinning this as a techno solution is false.
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kassy

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2024, 11:55:56 AM »
Power-hungry AI is driving a surge in tech giant carbon emissions. Nobody knows what to do about it

Since the release of ChatGPT in November 2022, the world has seen an incredible surge in investment, development and use of artificial intelligence (AI) applications. According to one estimate, the amount of computational power used for AI is doubling roughly every 100 days.

The social and economic impacts of this boom have provoked reactions around the world. European regulators recently pushed Meta to pause plans to train AI models on users’ Facebook and Instagram data. The Bank of International Settlements, which coordinates the world’s central banks, has warned AI adoption may change the way inflation works.

The environmental impacts have so far received less attention. A single query to an AI-powered chatbot can use up to ten times as much energy as an old-fashioned Google search.

Broadly speaking, a generative AI system may use 33 times more energy to complete a task than it would take with traditional software. This enormous demand for energy translates into surges in carbon emissions and water use, and may place further stress on electricity grids already strained by climate change.

Energy
Most AI applications run on servers in data centres. In 2023, before the AI boom really kicked off, the International Energy Agency estimated data centres already accounted for 1–1.5% of global electricity use and around 1% of the world’s energy-related CO₂ emissions.

For comparison, in 2022, the aviation sector accounted for 2% of global energy-related CO₂ emissions while the steel sector was responsible for 7–9%.

How is the rapid growth in AI use changing these figures? Recent environmental reporting by Microsoft, Meta and Google provides some insight.

Microsoft has significant investments in AI, with a large stake in ChatGPT-maker OpenAI as well as its own Copilot applications for Windows. Between 2020 and 2023, Microsoft’s disclosed annual emissions increased by around 40%, from the equivalent of 12.2 million tonnes of CO₂ to 17.1 million tonnes.

These figures include not only direct emissions but also indirect emissions, such as those caused by generating the electricity used to run data centres and those that result from the use of the company’s products. (These three categories of emissions are referred to as Scope 1, 2 and 3 emissions, respectively.)

Meta too is sinking huge resources into AI. In 2023, the company disclosed is Scope 3 emissions had increased by over 65% in just two years, from the equivalent of 5 million tonnes of CO₂ in 2020 to 8.4 million tonnes in 2022.

Google’s emissions were almost 50% higher in 2023 than in 2019. The tech giant’s 2024 environmental report notes that planned emissions reductions will be difficult “due to increasing energy demands from the greater intensity of AI compute”.

Water
Data centres generate a lot of heat, and consume large amounts of water to cool their servers. According to a 2021 study, data centres in the United States use about 7,100 litres of water for each megawatt-hour of energy they consume.

Google’s US data centres alone consumed an estimated 12.7 billion litres of fresh water in 2021.

In regions where climate change is increasing water stress, the water use of data centres is becoming a particular concern. The recent drought in California, where many tech companies are based, has led companies including Google, Amazon and Meta to start “water positive” initiatives.

These big tech firms have announced commitments to replenish more water than they consume by 2030. Their plans include projects such as designing ecologically resilient watershed landscapes and improving community water conservation to improve water security.

Climate risk
Where data centres are located in or near cities, they may also end up competing with people for resources in times of scarcity. Extreme heat events are one example.

Globally, the total number of days above 50°C has increased in each decade since 1980. July 2023 was the hottest month ever recorded.

Extreme heat translates to health impacts on local populations. A Lancet 2022 study found that even a 1°C increase in temperature is positively associated with increased mortality and morbidity.

On days of extreme heat, air conditioning can save lives. Data centres also like to keep cool, so their power use will spike with the temperature, raising the risk of blackouts and instability in electricity grids.

...

https://theconversation.com/power-hungry-ai-is-driving-a-surge-in-tech-giant-carbon-emissions-nobody-knows-what-to-do-about-it-233452
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2024, 04:40:48 PM »
“The advancements in liquid cooling technology spearheaded by Supermicro and adopted by Musk’s projects represent a significant shift in how AI data centers can operate more efficiently and sustainably.”
 
Two separate projects:  One in Tesla’s Texas gigafactory, for training Tesla’s Full Self Driving feature.  The other in Memphis, Tennessee, is the X/xAI supercomputer.
 
CEO of Supermicro gives his endorsement to Elon Musk’s liquid-cooled AI data centers.
by Sourabh Singh - July 7, 2024
Quote
There will soon be an AI supercomputer cluster in Elon Musk’s Texas Tesla Gigafactory. The cooling solution being used excites Charles Liang, CEO of Supermicro. Liang was pleased that Musk decided to use Supermicro’s liquid cooling technology for both the upcoming xAI supercomputer and Tesla’s new cluster.


AI data centers are notorious for their substantial power consumption. Supermicro aims to mitigate this by promoting liquid cooling. The company asserts that direct liquid cooling can reduce the electricity costs associated with cooling infrastructure by up to 89% compared to traditional air cooling methods.

Liang has previously stated on X that Supermicro’s goal is to increase the adoption of direct liquid cooling (DLC) from less than 1% to over 30% within a year. Musk’s deployment of Supermicro’s cooling technology on a large scale at the Tesla Gigafactory is a significant step toward this goal. The new expansion at the Gigafactory will house 50,000 Nvidia GPUs along with more Tesla AI hardware, all aimed at enhancing Tesla’s Full Self Driving feature.

The expansion has garnered attention due to the massive fans being constructed to support the liquid cooling system, which Musk recently highlighted in an X post. Musk estimates that the Gigafactory supercomputer will draw 130 megawatts upon deployment, with a potential increase to 500 megawatts as Tesla’s proprietary AI hardware is installed. The facility’s construction is nearing completion and is expected to be operational within the next few months.

 
It’s important to note that Tesla’s Gigafactory supercomputer cluster is distinct from another major project by Musk: the X/xAI supercomputer. Musk is concurrently building two of the world’s largest GPU-powered AI supercomputer clusters. The xAI supercomputer is more widely known and has already seen an order for 100,000 of Nvidia’s H100 GPUs. The xAI cluster will train GrokAI, X’s AI chatbot alternative available to X Premium subscribers.

The xAI supercomputer, also expected to be ready within a few months, will be liquid-cooled by Supermicro and has an upgrade path to 300,000 Nvidia B200 GPUs planned for next summer.

 
The advancements in liquid cooling technology spearheaded by Supermicro and adopted by Musk’s projects represent a significant shift in how AI data centers can operate more efficiently and sustainably. The collaboration between Musk and Supermicro underscores the potential for technological innovation to address both environmental and operational challenges in the rapidly growing field of AI and data centers.

As the Tesla Gigafactory and xAI supercomputers come online, they will likely serve as benchmarks for future data center designs, showcasing the benefits of advanced cooling technologies and the importance of innovative thinking in tackling global challenges.
https://theubj.com/news/ceo-of-supermicro-gives-his-endorsement-to-elon-musks-liquid-cooled-gigafactory-ai-data-centers-within-months-350000-nvidia-gpus-will-power-the-new-supercomputers-from-tesla-and-xai/

=====

NEWS: Yovole Network, a Shanghai-based cloud computing datacenter service provider, has partnered with Tesla to apply their Megapack energy storage technology at their intelligent computing center.

China's 300 exaflop dream: Can they achieve it by 2025?
In the past 11 months, China's exaflops count has increased by 33 to 230 currently
Jul 08, 2024
Quote
China has announced an ambitious plan to increase its national compute capacity by 30% this year. The current capacity, revealed at the Global Digital Economy Conference 2024, stands at over 8.1 million datacenter racks with a combined processing power of 230 exaflops. Wang Xiaoli, a representative of the China Academy of Information and Communications Technology, stated that the country aims to reach a processing power of 300 exaflops by 2025.


Strategic partnership
Tesla's role in China's computing surge
Tesla may play a significant role in China's plan to boost its computing power. Yovole Network, a Shanghai-based cloud computing datacenter service provider, has adopted various technologies for its datacenters and has "partnered with Tesla to apply their Megapack energy storage technology at our intelligent computing center." This partnership was announced alongside news of state-owned enterprises procuring Tesla Model Y vehicles for corporate use. The specifics of how China intends to add 70 exaflops to its compute power remain undisclosed.

Economic impact
China's economic transformation through compute capacity boost
Beijing is promoting this ambitious plan as a means to transform its economy as increased national compute capacity will enable wider deployment of AI workloads. However, China's push to 300 exaflops by 2025 may be too ambitious. The Chinese state media has reported a jump in the nation's compute power from 180 exaflops in 2022 to 197 in August 2023. In the past 11 months, China's exaflops count has increased by 33 to 230 currently.
https://www.newsbytesapp.com/news/science/china-outlines-ambitious-goals-for-high-performance-computing/story
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2024, 05:01:24 PM »
An even quicker way would be to actually agree on limits and work within them. This is not a popular solution but it would have prevented much more emissions. The total amount of emissions sets a limit on the outcome. Given the uncertainties we should have aimed low.

Who will set those limits?  Who will make the laws and regulations to reach them?  How long wil that take? 
EDIT:  How long will the countries/companies be given to comply?  Will the penalties be worse to them than what they would save by not investing in clean energy? Aren’t we looking at ten, fifteen, twenty years or more???  🤔  Who is fantasizing now?
Which companies are most able to move toward those targets, most quickly — ones which aren’t already moving in that direction anyway, without those regs?  How many people will suffer if FF plants are forced to shut down before alternative energy sources are in place?

 
Trying to assemble an agreement to limits, and all the etc. which that entails, is probably the slowest way to proceed.  It would be easier and quicker just to stop subsidizing FF energy — but the world hasn’t been able to do even that.

The fastest way to change is to make clean energy cheaper, via increasing scale and iterative improvements, so companies/countries/people themselves WANT to change.  Then the price difference alone could drive the change, but the benefits of the systems — for example, batteries as better sources for grid solutions; residential solar/batteries as better for distributed energy — will make FF sources obsolete and they will die a natural death.

No one forced the change from horses to cars.  No one has to force the change to clean energy.  It just works better.  It’s preferable, for so many reasons other than “2C limits.”
« Last Edit: July 09, 2024, 06:32:25 PM by Sigmetnow »
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gerontocrat

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2024, 07:40:36 PM »
The energy that these data centres consume pushes back the the peak of USA CO2 emissions significantly, and the USA is the 2nd biggest emitter of CO2.

China is doing its best to follow a similar path.

Thus the 2030 targets for reductions in CO2 emissions becomes even more of a sick joke.

For some people Global heating is already an existential threat***.
In the years to come that existential threat will grow.

BigTech is thus no different from BigOil.

***ps: In Oregon, four people died of suspected heat-related illnesses over the weekend, according to a news release from Multnomah County. A motorcyclist also died from heat exposure in California’s Death Valley on Saturday, where the high temperature was 128 degrees.

Pakistan: More than 500 die in six days as heatwave grips country
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn05rz3w4x1o

... The Edhi ambulance service says it usually takes around 30 to 40 people to the Karachi city morgue daily. But over the last six days, it has collected some 568 bodies - 141 of them on Tuesday alone.

pps: Google "Do No Evil". What a fucking sick joke

« Last Edit: July 09, 2024, 07:48:45 PM by gerontocrat »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2024, 09:52:14 PM »
BigTech is thus no different from BigOil.
 
BigTech is more nimble, and can/will be quicker to adopt energy-conserving methods, compared to the entrenched Big Oil, which has next to no clean or energy-sparing options.
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Bruce Steele

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2024, 11:37:08 PM »
Again US data centers already use more energy than all US solar generation combined. But the data centers are running 24/7 and the solar is only during daylight.
Data centers use 4% of total current electric use but solar only produces 3.9% . If you look at the current data center growth rates it is obvious that the growth of energy going to data will far exceed solar over the next few years.
https://restservice.epri.com/publicdownload/000000003002028905/0/Product
 Hype is hype and no efficiency gains won’t fix this problem anytime soon . Data centers are being located where solar and any other renewable energy may never catch up.  Virginia isn’t a hotbed of renewables but it leads in data centers and the percent of power that data already consumes. 31% of all Virginia’s power.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2024, 03:13:07 AM »
Again US data centers already use more energy than all US solar generation combined. But the data centers are running 24/7 and the solar is only during daylight.
Data centers use 4% of total current electric use but solar only produces 3.9% . If you look at the current data center growth rates it is obvious that the growth of energy going to data will far exceed solar over the next few years.
https://restservice.epri.com/publicdownload/000000003002028905/0/Product
 Hype is hype and no efficiency gains won’t fix this problem anytime soon . Data centers are being located where solar and any other renewable energy may never catch up.  Virginia isn’t a hotbed of renewables but it leads in data centers and the percent of power that data already consumes. 31% of all Virginia’s power.

Now calculate the money and energy saved by using AI to increase personal, business, and manufacturing efficiency.

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StatsApp
 
Since FSD 12.3.6, I use FSD more and I think this has caused an increase in my [Tesla’s] efficiency recently. The temperature hasn’t changed much around here.
7/7/24, 5:00 PM    https://x.com/statsteslaapp/status/1810056244524380465
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kassy

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2024, 06:34:00 PM »
Now calculate the money and energy saved by using AI to increase personal, business, and manufacturing efficiency.

Yes. Calculate it using current real world figures and weep. Just one tweet of what someone things of something is no evidence.

You assume it is all for the greater good which is of course the pitch but what will actually happen is more complicated. In the fifties we would all get free nuclear energy but that did not happen either for a bunch of reasons.

Current energy savings are zero. And we are in a critical time for FF reduction.
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gerontocrat

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2024, 07:49:42 PM »
Now calculate the money and energy saved by using AI to increase personal, business, and manufacturing efficiency.
And if that increased efficiency is simply used to accelerate the Economy of Things, placing an ever-faster increase in demands on an over-burdened planet?

That is the most likely outcome as our brand of capitalism requires and demands ever-increasing economic activity to sustain itself.

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2024, 03:35:24 AM »
Millions of lives will be saved or improved by AI.  Billions of dollars saved or spent more efficiently.  How much is data center energy worth, if it saves your life, the life of your loved ones, or shows feasible ways to solve the climate crisis?
 
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Demis Hassabis says it is obvious that artificial general intelligence will transform everything and be as revolutionary as electricity or fire, while accelerating the process of scientific discovery itself.
 
➡️ pic.twitter.com/ITJncCsnVi  2 min. “I think over the next 5, 10 years we’re going to see incredible gains in productivity, in the personal domain but also in the work environment.” Accelerate scientific discovery itself.  Our program AlphaFold solved the 50-year problem of determining how different proteins fold, determining the 3D structure of a protein, just from its amino acid sequence, which has huge implications for drug discovery and disease understanding.  In the next decade we’re going to see many breakthroughs in energy, materials science, mathematics, weather prediction, climate, health care, that AI is going to be instrumental in.

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How much, pain and death will AI prevent, and how much money will it save, as it takes more and more driving out of the hands of stupid and fallible humans?
 
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JC Christopher
 
Hey everyone, just wanted to send a quick post while I had the chance, and had reception in the EMT ambulance (don’t worry, I’m good). I was in a vehicle accident a few hours ago, an older lady in a Cadillac Escalade ran a stop light and T-boned me. …
7/9/24, https://x.com/johnchr08117285/status/1810732577164337313

—-
“Pedestrian deaths are at a 41-year high in the US
Unsupervised FSD can't come soon enough”
➡️ pic.twitter.com/exWtfboZgl  10 sec.  FSD sees a pedestrian that we can’t.  Daytime.
 
—-
I was just sent footage of the crash from the family. The video is not sped up. The Dad walked away unharmed….
➡️ pic.twitter.com/bapimlEugC  7 sec. Two views. OMG. Full speed crash.
< Guy that hit him said he fell asleep.
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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2024, 03:46:21 AM »
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AI will probably be smarter than any single human next year. By 2029, AI is probably smarter than all humans combined.
3/12/24, https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1767738797276451090
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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2024, 09:57:52 AM »
AIs are not smart they just mimic inputs.

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2024, 04:35:53 PM »
AIs are not smart they just mimic inputs.

Many AIs mimic or regurgitate input in a slightly different form, that is true.  But, for example, AlphaFold is able to determine how new proteins will fold, where the input is simply an amino acid sequence that never existed.  AI can produce new knowledge.
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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2024, 05:14:39 PM »
AIs are not smart they just mimic inputs.

Many AIs mimic or regurgitate input in a slightly different form, that is true.  But, for example, AlphaFold is able to determine how new proteins will fold, where the input is simply an amino acid sequence that never existed.  AI can produce new knowledge.
In a highly limited constrained domain it mimics the folding of the input proteins. Feed in a few garbage folding sequences would it reject these sequences without being told to look for and reject garbage sequences? Of course it would not. It was not told to do that. It is not actually intelligent despite the name. Artificial intelligence is actually pretty stupid despite the hype. The human programing and using the AI has to be smarter than the AI to get good results. Computers are good at repetitive tasks. Mostly  AI is pattern recognition. It does not make the intuitive leaps that most children do nor will it anytime soon. It may appear to be more intelligent than it is if you do not understand how it works. Despite this it can be a useful tool.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2024, 05:33:19 PM »
AIs are not smart they just mimic inputs.

Many AIs mimic or regurgitate input in a slightly different form, that is true.  But, for example, AlphaFold is able to determine how new proteins will fold, where the input is simply an amino acid sequence that never existed.  AI can produce new knowledge.
In a highly limited constrained domain it mimics the folding of the input proteins. Feed in a few garbage folding sequences would it reject these sequences without being told to look for and reject garbage sequences? Of course it would not. It was not told to do that. It is not actually intelligent despite the name. Artificial intelligence is actually pretty stupid despite the hype. The human programing and using the AI has to be smarter than the AI to get good results. Computers are good at repetitive tasks. Mostly  AI is pattern recognition. It does not make the intuitive leaps that most children do nor will it anytime soon. It may appear to be more intelligent than it is if you do not understand how it works. Despite this it can be a useful tool.

At its most basic, it can do what humans can do (play Go, or chess, for example) — but millions of times faster.  That makes it superior to humans in that area.

So, given all the knowledge a human has, it could form millions of solutions to a problem, and determine which of those solutions has the highest probability of success.  As of now, humans determine if those answers are “correct.”   But an unexpected solution generated by AI could be the right one, even if humans don’t think so.

In a few years, larger AIs /AGI will have knowledge equivalent to all humans.  And more.  When the machine is more capable than any human, intelligence cannot be denied.
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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2024, 09:26:05 PM »
In many areas we actually know the solution but we don´t want to do it because it conflicts with other interests. We did not get here through lack of knowledge we just chose the wrong pathway of lets keep growing FFs. Will AI fix this? Well who will own it.
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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2024, 03:06:46 AM »
AIs are not smart they just mimic inputs.

Many AIs mimic or regurgitate input in a slightly different form, that is true.  But, for example, AlphaFold is able to determine how new proteins will fold, where the input is simply an amino acid sequence that never existed.  AI can produce new knowledge.
In a highly limited constrained domain it mimics the folding of the input proteins. Feed in a few garbage folding sequences would it reject these sequences without being told to look for and reject garbage sequences? Of course it would not. It was not told to do that. It is not actually intelligent despite the name. Artificial intelligence is actually pretty stupid despite the hype. The human programing and using the AI has to be smarter than the AI to get good results. Computers are good at repetitive tasks. Mostly  AI is pattern recognition. It does not make the intuitive leaps that most children do nor will it anytime soon. It may appear to be more intelligent than it is if you do not understand how it works. Despite this it can be a useful tool.

At its most basic, it can do what humans can do (play Go, or chess, for example) — but millions of times faster.  That makes it superior to humans in that area.

So, given all the knowledge a human has, it could form millions of solutions to a problem, and determine which of those solutions has the highest probability of success.  As of now, humans determine if those answers are “correct.”   But an unexpected solution generated by AI could be the right one, even if humans don’t think so.

In a few years, larger AIs /AGI will have knowledge equivalent to all humans.  And more.  When the machine is more capable than any human, intelligence cannot be denied.
wishful thinking

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2024, 05:05:12 PM »
wishful thinking

The people who actually build the things say it’s happening.  I’d say it’s wishful thinking to believe it won’t.

AI can write code. How long until it’s asked to code a better AI?
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gerontocrat

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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2024, 05:26:15 PM »
AI- The question is - who will own it and use it?

Big-Tech will own it, and the motivation is to be first because the winners get the money.
Big business (then SMEs) will use it - to reduce costs (especially labour), and increase sales to make more profit.
The military will use it, to increase effectiveness of resources, i.e. destruction per dollar employed.

Because of the dash to develop and win, I have absolutely zero confidence in Big-Techs ability to protect their AI applications from theft and even further development by Bad Actors. Drug Cartels, People Traffickers are probably even now using AI to confound police and intelligence agencies and streamline their operations.

Misinformation and disinformation can now be targeted down to individual level.

Through the use of AI dictators will find it easier and easier to not only control access of info by ctizens, but can ensure citizens are fed in a sophisticated and persuasive manner the narrative of the State.

An individual has no real defence against this which is happening as we speak.
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Re: Data Centers: Benefits, Problems and Solutions
« Reply #49 on: July 13, 2024, 02:41:56 AM »
wishful thinking

The people who actually build the things say it’s happening.  I’d say it’s wishful thinking to believe it won’t.

AI can write code. How long until it’s asked to code a better AI?


AI is a useful tool. It is doing things that humans can not do in a reasonable amount of time. What I am saying it is not as smart as a human and will not be as smart as a human in the near future. Between businesses hyping their product and stories contemplating what may be possible in the future the reality of AI is being distorted. It would be better in my opinion if the public understood better how it works and what its limitations are.