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IceFloe

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Current list of countries with glaciers
« on: July 21, 2024, 04:20:13 PM »
The neighboring topic that many countries will soon lose all their glaciers led me to think. Espen suggests that the first country to lose all its glaciers will be Congo. But the problem is that many mountain glaciers are too small to have been discovered in the past. Recently, the first real moving glaciers were discovered in Japan. For this reason, Congo's primacy may be disputed. In this thread I decided to make a running list of all countries with known glaciers. We should not forget that scientists suggest that 200 years ago one of the countries lost all its glaciers. We are talking about Great Britain with its relatively high and cold mountains in Scotland. It is easy to remember that around that time the English Industrial Revolution began, which increased the amount of soot falling on glaciers.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-25824673

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Scotland had a glacier up to 1700s, say scientists

A glacier was still in place in Scotland within the past 400 years - 11,000 years later than previously thought - it has been suggested.

Dundee University geographer Dr Martin Kirkbride said a glacier may have survived in the Cairngorms as recently as the 18th Century.

Britain's last masses of slow-moving ice and snow were understood to have melted 11,500 years ago.

Dr Kirkbride studied the formation of corries in the Cairngorms.

A corrie is a basin-shaped feature created by glaciations in the mountains.

Using a technique called cosmogenic 10Be dating, Dr Kirkbride showed that a small glacier in a Cairngorms corrie piled up granite boulders to form moraine ridges within the past few centuries, during the period of cool climate known as the Little Ice Age.

Dr Kirkbride said: "Our laboratory dating indicates that the moraines were formed within the last couple of thousand years, which shows that a Scottish glacier existed more recently than we had previously thought.

"The climate of the last few millennia was at its most severe between 1650 and 1790.

"There are some anecdotal reports from that time of snow covering some of the mountain tops year-round. What we have now is the scientific evidence that there was indeed a glacier."

Dundee University said scientists had speculated that glaciers may have re-formed in the Highlands around the time of this Little Ice Age but hard evidence has proved to be elusive.

Dr Kirkbride teamed up with Dr Jez Everest at the British Geological Survey in Edinburgh, and the Cosmogenic Isotope Analysis Facility at the Scottish Universities Environmental Reactor Centre in East Kilbride, to carry out the research.

Dr Everest said: "This is exciting news, as for the first time we have shown that climatic conditions in Scotland allowed glaciation within the last half millennium, at a time when other glaciated areas, such as Scandinavia, Iceland and the Alps saw their glaciers grow to some of their largest sizes since the end of the last Ice Age.

"This has great importance when we start to reconstruct climate change in Scotland and the wider region over the last few centuries."

The dating technique used estimates the time since quartz crystals in granite boulders were exposed at the Earth's surface, based on measuring the concentration of beryllium-10 isotopes which form when the rock surface is bombarded by cosmic rays from deep space.

Dr Kirkbride's discovery is backed up by a parallel study by Dr Stephan Harrison, of the University of Exeter, and Dr Anne Rowan, of the University of Aberystwyth.

They have developed a model to simulate Little Ice Age climate in the Cairngorms, allowing them to calculate how much cooler and snowier the winter weather must have been to cause glaciers to form.

The models show that small glaciers would have been created in the corries by a cooling of air temperatures by 1.5C and precipitation increasing by 10%.

Dr Harrison said: "Our findings show that the Cairngorm mountains were probably home to a number of small glaciers during the last few hundred years - around 11,000 years later than previous evidence has suggested.

"It may be that such glaciers also existed in the Scottish Highlands and elsewhere during other cold periods after the main ice sheets had disappeared."

He added: "Present climate warming means there is little chance of a return of glacier ice to the Highlands for the foreseeable future."

Both studies are published in the latest issue of the journal The Holocene.


There is news that in recent years in Scotland the last patches of long-term snow, which can also be considered a glacier, have disappeared.

https://www.rmets.org/metmatters/scottish-snow-patches-vanishing-ice

But keep in mind that Great Britain's status as a glacial country is not under threat, due to the fact that it has owned the large Antarctic island of South Georgia since 1775, where there are many large glaciers

IceFloe

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Re: Current list of countries with glaciers
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2024, 04:44:57 PM »
So gentlemen, let's start with the first Global Glacier Change Bulletin from 2015. It shows the position of more than 3 thousand glaciers, which are best studied.

https://wgms.ch/downloads/WGMS_GGCB_01.pdf

Note that the map shows both the recently discovered Japanese glaciers and glaciers in Montenegro and Bulgaria. Only Albanian glaciers are not on the map.

IceFloe

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Re: Current list of countries with glaciers
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2024, 05:22:43 PM »
The absence of Albanian glaciers on the world map forced me to turn to a more detailed source about small European glaciers. Glaciers in Montenegro and Albania were found in 2006-2009, earlier than Japan glaciers after 2012.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1657/1938-4246-41.4.455
https://www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/news/glaciers-discovered-in-cursed-mountains-of-albania/

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Figure 1 Locations of the southernmost glaciers and ice patches in Europe (based on data in CitationGrunewald et al., 2006; González-Trueba et al., 2008; CitationHughes and Woodward, 2009).

from there

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Revised inventory of small glaciers on the Balkan Peninsula
As a result of all research done by now, 16 sustainable (perennial) firn/ice features in the mountains of the Balkan Peninsula can be indexed in the category of small glaciers (Table 1). Summer lasting snow patches have been observed also in other mountain ranges such as in Olympus (Kazania cirque), in Rila (the cirque of the Seven lakes), in Maglić, Korab and others. None of them, however, is proved to have both persistency and indications of dynamic motion.

Olympus - Greece, Rila - Bulgaria, Korab - border of Albania and North Macedonia and the highest mountain of North Macedonia

Another region where there are many glaciers and small states is Central and South Asia.
https://boku.ac.at/fileadmin/data/H03000/H87000/H87200/4Veranstaltungen/Cerny_Schneider.pdf
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1674987116000062
« Last Edit: July 21, 2024, 06:33:09 PM by IceFloe »

Espen

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Re: Current list of countries with glaciers
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2024, 08:07:20 PM »
Espen suggests that the first country to lose all its glaciers will be Congo. But the problem is that many mountain glaciers are too small to have been discovered in the past. Recently, the first real moving glaciers were discovered in Japan. For this reason, Congo's primacy may be disputed.
Quote

First, I would like to point out that I have never written/said that DR Congo will be the first country to lose perennial natural ice/glaciers, firns etc. Because there are several of them. But I have suggested that DR Congo could be the first in modern times (in our centuries), since the only remaining glacier/perennial ice in DR Congo may now only be perenial ice, since it is only less than 1 hectare of ice (10,000 m2) and the currently official competitor claimed by many researchers Humboldt Gletscher is 15,000 m2. And to claim that Alexandra Glacier should be so small that it should not be known is pure nonsense, it used to be quite a large glacier which was even named as early as 1906 by Luigi Amedeo when he was the first to climb Mount Stanley named after Sir Henry Morton Stanley .
And by the way, the southernmost glacier in mainland Asia is not on any of the maps produced in the next post, it is actually Mt. Yulong (China) the southernmost in EuroAsia and mainland China!
« Last Edit: July 21, 2024, 08:30:49 PM by Espen »
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IceFloe

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Re: Current list of countries with glaciers
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2024, 08:38:55 PM »
But I have suggested that DR Congo could be the first in modern times (in our centuries), since the only remaining glacier/perennial ice in DR Congo may now only be perinial ice, since it is only less than 1 hectare of ice (10,000 m2) and the currently official competitor claimed by many researchers Humboldt Gletscher is 15,000 m2. And to claim that Alexandra Glacier should be so small that it should not be known is pure nonsense, it used to be quite a large glacier which was even named as early as 1906 by Luigi Amedeo when he was the first to climb Mount Stanley named after Sir Henry Morton Stanley.

But, you must agree that other options are possible. If you reject the definition of a glacier as a moving mass of ice with an area greater than 10 hectares, then the melting of any area of ​​permanent snow can be attributed to the first country to lose all its glaciers in the 21st century.

For example, take Mount Olympus - the highest peak in Greece and the second highest in the Balkans. People climbed to its peak back in ancient times and saw eternal snow on it. I came across a study that says that the last eternal snow on this famous mountain is currently melting.

https://olympus.noblogs.org/files/2019/07/2018-Mediterranean-perennial-snowfields-and-ice-bodies-on-the-brink-of-extinction.-The-story-of-Mount-Olympus-Greece-M.-Styllas.pdf

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In the broader context of rapid environmental and climatic changes in the Mediterranean region, a new 36Cl nuclide glacial chronology from two small (0.5km2) cirques on Mount Olympus in Greece (Throne of Zeus and Megala Kazania) is presented, spanning the Lateglacial and the Holocene. The new chronology contemplates few existing Surface Exposure Datings (SED) from cirques in the southern Balkan Mountains. Cirque glacier behaviour and solar radiation are out-of-phase during the Lateglacial and in-phase during the Holocene. The most recent glaciation episode occurred during the Little Ice Age (LIA) and has been confined only in the sheltered northwest facing cirque of Megala Kazania (MK), which is characterized by steep 500m-high headwalls and by large amounts of windblown and avalanching snow. Perennial snowfields and permanent ice bodies survived within the MK cirque during the entire 20th century, despite the fact that the local ELA has been situated above Mount Olympus summit (2918m). Since 2010, pronounced shrinking of the snowfields has led to the exposure and melting of the basal ice, bringing them on the brink of extinction, due to reduced snowfall and increasing summer temperatures. The last ice of Mount Olympus, is preserved within vertical caves, guarding the last climatic information of the Ancient Greek Gods.

Can Greece claim to be the first country to lose all its ice in the 21st century or not? It is necessary to find more information about the eternal ice on Mount Olympus for an accurate conclusion.

Espen

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Re: Current list of countries with glaciers
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2024, 08:45:28 PM »
But I have suggested that DR Congo could be the first in modern times (in our centuries), since the only remaining glacier/perennial ice in DR Congo may now only be perenial ice, since it is only less than 1 hectare of ice (10,000 m2) and the currently official competitor claimed by many researchers Humboldt Gletscher is 15,000 m2. And to claim that Alexandra Glacier should be so small that it should not be known is pure nonsense, it used to be quite a large glacier which was even named as early as 1906 by Luigi Amedeo when he was the first to climb Mount Stanley named after Sir Henry Morton Stanley.

But, you must agree that other options are possible. If you reject the definition of a glacier as a moving mass of ice with an area greater than 10 hectares, then the melting of any area of ​​permanent snow can be attributed to the first country to lose all its glaciers in the 21st century.

I dont reject anything since there is no official limits regarding size of glaciers!
And if it was officially named a Glacier, the remains of it is still a former glacier!
« Last Edit: July 21, 2024, 08:56:01 PM by Espen »
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IceFloe

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Re: Current list of countries with glaciers
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2024, 09:02:29 PM »
I dont reject anything since there is no official limits regarding size of glaciers!
And if it was officially named a Glacier, the remains of it is still a former glacier!

Can cave perpetual ice be considered a glacier or not?

From last year's exploration of Mount Olympus.


Quote
The last bits of glacial ice and permafrost as remains of the late Holocene Mediterranean glaciations. New discoveries from Mount Olympus periglacial zone
...
Here we show preliminary results of an extensive fieldwork campaign that focuses on the Holocene reconstruction of the climate and alpine critical zone environmental conditions of Mount Olympus (2918 m) in Greece. A well-preserved sequence of late Holocene glacial moraines dating to ⁓2.5 and ⁓0.6 ka BP, respectively, suggest that the small cirque glaciers were geomorphologically active during the LIA, whereas 30 m deep glacial ice found in a perennial ice cave opens a new window of local and regional continuous climate reconstructions. The extensive snowfields of the mid-20th century have shrunk dramatically but have survived the warmest summers of the 21st century. Below these perennial snowfields a 15 m thick permafrost layer has been discovered during our campaign through 3 Electrical Resistivity Tomography (ERT) profiles, in a location where the mean annual air temperature (MAAT) of the last 10 years is above 0oC, but in agreement with permafrost occurrence in other mountains of the Southern Balkan peninsula. The base horizon of postglacial alpine soils overlying glacial till deposited in a glaciokarstic plateau below the summit, appears cryoturbated whereas the soils are characterized by translocation of clay from the upper to the lower horizon. These observations along with occasional early summer soil freeze and subsequent waterlogging, suggest that the periglacial activity on Mount Olympus continues in a rapidly warming Mediterranean environment. However, regional warming and anomalous early summer convective rainfall that has caused a dramatic reduction in the volume of the perennial ice cave deposits and the near extinction of the perennial snowfields (even after winters with very high snow accumulation) over the past 10 years also threatens this periglacial activity.


https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2023EGUGA..25.5728S/abstract



Are there satellite images of the summit of Olympus in recent years? Can they see ice in deep basins?

Espen

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Re: Current list of countries with glaciers
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2024, 09:11:57 PM »
I dont reject anything since there is no official limits regarding size of glaciers!
And if it was officially named a Glacier, the remains of it is still a former glacier!

Can cave perpetual ice be considered a glacier or not?

From last year's exploration of Mount Olympus.


Quote
The last bits of glacial ice and permafrost as remains of the late Holocene Mediterranean glaciations. New discoveries from Mount Olympus periglacial zone
...
Here we show preliminary results of an extensive fieldwork campaign that focuses on the Holocene reconstruction of the climate and alpine critical zone environmental conditions of Mount Olympus (2918 m) in Greece. A well-preserved sequence of late Holocene glacial moraines dating to ⁓2.5 and ⁓0.6 ka BP, respectively, suggest that the small cirque glaciers were geomorphologically active during the LIA, whereas 30 m deep glacial ice found in a perennial ice cave opens a new window of local and regional continuous climate reconstructions. The extensive snowfields of the mid-20th century have shrunk dramatically but have survived the warmest summers of the 21st century. Below these perennial snowfields a 15 m thick permafrost layer has been discovered during our campaign through 3 Electrical Resistivity Tomography (ERT) profiles, in a location where the mean annual air temperature (MAAT) of the last 10 years is above 0oC, but in agreement with permafrost occurrence in other mountains of the Southern Balkan peninsula. The base horizon of postglacial alpine soils overlying glacial till deposited in a glaciokarstic plateau below the summit, appears cryoturbated whereas the soils are characterized by translocation of clay from the upper to the lower horizon. These observations along with occasional early summer soil freeze and subsequent waterlogging, suggest that the periglacial activity on Mount Olympus continues in a rapidly warming Mediterranean environment. However, regional warming and anomalous early summer convective rainfall that has caused a dramatic reduction in the volume of the perennial ice cave deposits and the near extinction of the perennial snowfields (even after winters with very high snow accumulation) over the past 10 years also threatens this periglacial activity.


https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2023EGUGA..25.5728S/abstract



Are there satellite images of the summit of Olympus in recent years? Can they see ice in deep basins?

I will not engage in wordplay, sorry! Ask them in Greece?
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IceFloe

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Re: Current list of countries with glaciers
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2024, 09:31:50 PM »
I dont reject anything since there is no official limits regarding size of glaciers!
And if it was officially named a Glacier, the remains of it is still a former glacier!

But the USGS is said to hold this view. This is a serious organization.

Quote
There’s no universally accepted point of death for a glacier, and no international organization is recognized as the authority on glacial classification. But Centeno said that "the minimum size for a glacier is 0.1 [square kilometers.]" The United States Geological Survey also uses that threshold and says it’s “the commonly accepted guideline.”

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/at-least-two-countries-have-lost-all-their-glaciers/

In some ways they are right. All these tiny pieces of possible multi-year ice, covering several hectares at best, look frivolous. Satellites or climbers cannot monitor the area of ​​possible small glaciers every month or day. They can unnoticed melt and rebuild again after another snowfall. In this case, the line between the perennial and seasonal cryosphere is quickly blurred.

Espen

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Re: Current list of countries with glaciers
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2024, 09:37:06 PM »
I dont reject anything since there is no official limits regarding size of glaciers!
And if it was officially named a Glacier, the remains of it is still a former glacier!

But the USGS is said to hold this view. This is a serious organization.

Quote
There’s no universally accepted point of death for a glacier, and no international organization is recognized as the authority on glacial classification. ”

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/at-least-two-countries-have-lost-all-their-glaciers/


You bring all the answers to what I wrote earlier, there are no official limits for when a glacier is not a glacier, thank you!
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HapHazard

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Re: Current list of countries with glaciers
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2024, 12:36:38 AM »
The USGS "unofficial" definition makes sense to me. Hafta have a definition, or any measurement is absolutely meaningless. I view it like the definition of a BOE. Not exactly something with a worldwide official unanimous scientific definition, but it has an official definition here on ASIF.

Otherwise, there's a glacier in my freezer & on my grandfather's old farm (ice cave).
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