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Vergent

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Melt Ponds
« on: July 09, 2013, 05:57:14 PM »

Phil.

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2013, 04:08:25 PM »


Meanwhile next door.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 01:38:42 PM by Phil. »

Jim Hunt

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2013, 07:25:51 PM »
Meanwhile in the Beaufort Sea:
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

Vergent

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2013, 10:48:07 PM »

Meanwhile next door.

That image is from the first.



There has been some significant snow melt since then, and a few ponds forming in the distance.

You have to go to the index for the most recent, for some reason the galery does not auto-update.

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2013/WEBCAM1/ARCHIVE/

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2013/WEBCAM2/ARCHIVE/

Peter Ellis

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2013, 12:22:19 AM »
That image is from the first.
No it's not, look at the timestamp in upper left.  For some reason the melt pond in the back vanished between 8:07 and 14:05 on the 10th.  Drainage?

Phil.

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2013, 01:43:05 AM »
That image is from the first.
No it's not, look at the timestamp in upper left.  For some reason the melt pond in the back vanished between 8:07 and 14:05 on the 10th.  Drainage?

I guess I must have posted the live page because there was a melt pond in the background when I posted it!  Sorry,


helorime

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2013, 03:20:35 AM »
Clearing up over the web-cams.  Polar webCam 2 clearly showing melt ponds and open water in the background:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Vergent

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2013, 04:03:33 AM »
That image is from the first.
No it's not, look at the timestamp in upper left.  For some reason the melt pond in the back vanished between 8:07 and 14:05 on the 10th.  Drainage?

I guess I must have posted the live page because there was a melt pond in the background when I posted it!  Sorry,

The image URl you linked to is to the 8th slot in the webcam gallery, the image will change with time. Link to the archive, it will not change.

Vergent

Peter Ellis

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2013, 09:13:43 AM »
Aha!  Melt ponds at buoy 1 are definitely coming and going.  Could be drainage, or just the angle of the sun.

Phil.

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2013, 01:40:44 PM »
That image is from the first.
No it's not, look at the timestamp in upper left.  For some reason the melt pond in the back vanished between 8:07 and 14:05 on the 10th.  Drainage?

I guess I must have posted the live page because there was a melt pond in the background when I posted it!  Sorry,

The image URl you linked to is to the 8th slot in the webcam gallery, the image will change with time. Link to the archive, it will not change.

Vergent

Yes I know, that's what I intended, fixed it now, thanks.

Pmt111500

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2013, 07:40:22 AM »
here for the record the state of western greenland melt pool area (west on top) on 11.7.2013. tried to find pools on southern greenland too, but apparently there are none (have they drained already?).

Vergent

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2013, 03:28:52 PM »


« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 03:57:31 PM by Vergent »

ghoti

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2013, 04:41:03 PM »
Any idea what the dimensions of the black and white sections of the depth markers are? They were initially buried so only the top black section showed.

Vergent

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2013, 04:44:35 PM »


They look to be 10cm

Verg

ghoti

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2013, 05:45:54 PM »
The data plotted on http://imb.crrel.usace.army.mil/2013E.htm seems to be contradicted by the webcam photos. In the photos we see substantial loss of snow around the markers while the plot of snow depth on that web page shows accumulation. Remote sensing...

Artful Dodger

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2013, 06:24:53 PM »
They look to be 10cm
Yes Verg,

The standard increment for stadia rods used as survey instruments is 10 cm exactly.
Cheers!
Lodger

Peter Ellis

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2013, 07:00:28 PM »
It's not remote sensing, there's a sonar at the buoy location. The cams also show there was a snowfall recently. I expect it drifted a bit under the sonar sensor, or some such.

Phil.

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2013, 02:01:54 PM »


Still melting, looks like some rain at Cam #1 too


Phil.

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2013, 08:52:36 PM »
The N Pole webcams still showing expansion of the melt pond:


Vergent

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2013, 06:08:41 PM »


It's more like a melt lake, with an ice island

Verg ;-)

danp

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2013, 06:24:08 PM »

It's more like a melt lake, with an ice island

Verg ;-)

Beautiful catch there Vergent!  It's nice when nature delivers a metaphorical image all on its own.

Phil.

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2013, 03:39:35 AM »

It's more like a melt lake, with an ice island

Verg ;-)

Beautiful catch there Vergent!  It's nice when nature delivers a metaphorical image all on its own.

The 'island' doesn't look as if it will last another day!

jdallen

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2013, 06:40:13 AM »

It's more like a melt lake, with an ice island

Verg ;-)

Beautiful catch there Vergent!  It's nice when nature delivers a metaphorical image all on its own.

The 'island' doesn't look as if it will last another day!


That, is an extremely freaky image.
This space for Rent.

Phil.

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2013, 12:54:03 AM »

It's more like a melt lake, with an ice island

Verg ;-)

Beautiful catch there Vergent!  It's nice when nature delivers a metaphorical image all on its own.

The 'island' doesn't look as if it will last another day!


That, is an extremely freaky image.

Looks like the 'island' didn't make it!


Glenn Tamblyn

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2013, 10:47:17 AM »
Just a quick question, for clarification. Are the 'North Pole' webcams tethered at the pole or are they drifting? Is that actually the Pole?

ivica

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2013, 10:59:32 AM »
Just a quick question, for clarification. Are the 'North Pole' webcams tethered at the pole or are they drifting? Is that actually the Pole?
Glenn, they drift.

Source: 2013 Buoy Drift Map at NPEO

Glenn Tamblyn

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2013, 03:38:31 AM »
Thanks ivica!

Jim Hunt

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2013, 10:28:11 AM »
Plus this map of the Ice Mass Balance buoys:



The "melt ponds" at OBuoy 8 (AKA 2012H) are getting quite big!

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

Phil.

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2013, 04:00:04 AM »
The lake at Webcam#2 seems to to have got several inches deeper today!  Rearmost stakes have mainly submerged and the waterline on the buoy is higher.


helorime

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2013, 04:53:17 AM »
Since I can't seem to figure out how to post a picture, take a look at this link.  Looks like Florida or Aruba or something if you did not know better!

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2013/WEBCAM2/ARCHIVE/npeo_cam2_20130724191910.jpg
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Juan C. García

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2013, 06:02:15 AM »
Hi Helorime:

The easiest way to post an image is to downloaded it to your computer and then included it as an attachment to your coment. To included this way, you have the "Attachments and other options" under the box in which you write your post. With this method, only the ones that log in will be able to see the image.
The second way to do it, is to open an account in a service in which you can have the picture all the time, like photobucket (or others). Then you will insert the link of the image with the "Insert Image" option (second row, second column). In this way, everybody will see the image (not just the ones that are logged in).
Which is the best answer to Sep-2012 ASI lost (compared to 1979-2000)?
50% [NSIDC Extent] or
73% [PIOMAS Volume]

Volume is harder to measure than extent, but 3-dimensional space is real, 2D's hide ~50% thickness gone.
-> IPCC/NSIDC trends [based on extent] underestimate the real speed of ASI lost.

Juan C. García

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2013, 06:06:46 AM »
I just use the psc.apl.washington.edu link, with the "insert image" option:

Which is the best answer to Sep-2012 ASI lost (compared to 1979-2000)?
50% [NSIDC Extent] or
73% [PIOMAS Volume]

Volume is harder to measure than extent, but 3-dimensional space is real, 2D's hide ~50% thickness gone.
-> IPCC/NSIDC trends [based on extent] underestimate the real speed of ASI lost.

Artful Dodger

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2013, 10:12:10 AM »
The melt pond is starting to break through the sea ice now to the ocean beneath (see attached image, left-side of buoy).

Looking forward to the next round of images, which are uploaded in batches every 6 hrs. Look for the dark, almost black, signature of a melt hole in future webcam pictures.
Cheers!
Lodger

Espen

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2013, 11:30:26 AM »
The melt pond is starting to break through the sea ice now to the ocean beneath (see attached image, left-side of buoy).

Looking forward to the next round of images, which are uploaded in batches every 6 hrs. Look for the dark, almost black, signature of a melt hole in future webcam pictures.

Dodger;
I am more impressed with the white rainbow 8)
Have a ice day!

Artful Dodger

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2013, 12:27:43 PM »
I am more impressed with the white rainbow 8)
Hi Espen,

Yes, it's a Sea Dog.  :-*
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 02:56:02 PM by Artful Dodger »
Cheers!
Lodger

Peter Ellis

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2013, 01:09:11 PM »
No it's not, it's a fogbow
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fogbow

Sun dogs would (as the name suggests) be either side of the Sun - which is behind the camera in that photo.

Espen

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2013, 01:11:00 PM »
At least it is a bow?
Have a ice day!

AartBluestoke

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2013, 01:29:57 PM »
The melt pond is starting to break through the sea ice now to the ocean beneath (see attached image, left-side of buoy).

I was waiting for that to begin happening -- to keep 1m of ice submerged requires about 9kN/m2 due to a density difference is about 125kg/m3(which is about 20% of the fracture force of the ice, which is about 50kN/m2 at large scale according to http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1021134128038#page-1)

ghoti

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2013, 03:38:58 PM »
Six hours after that image where the water seemed to have started to drain the new image shows plenty of water again. Is this a tidal phenomenon?

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/northpole/NPEO2013/WEBCAM2/ARCHIVE/npeo_cam2_20130725072313.jpg

bosbas

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2013, 04:29:31 PM »
I am very impressed by the clear view we have on the melt pond around webcam-2; have we seen this in such detail before?
Can the rising water level in the pond be explained by just additional melt water? I haven't seen a drop in the water level that I would expect if the melt water could drain to the sea?
Just wondering ...

Phil.

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2013, 05:12:04 PM »
I am very impressed by the clear view we have on the melt pond around webcam-2; have we seen this in such detail before?
Can the rising water level in the pond be explained by just additional melt water? I haven't seen a drop in the water level that I would expect if the melt water could drain to the sea?
Just wondering ...

One thing that occurs to me is that the surface of the ice in that location was below sea level, the depression allowed a melt pond to form but the surface was still about a foot below sea level. Yesterday the melt pond connected with the sea and the sea drained into the depression which would account for the sudden rise of a foot or so overnight.

Espen

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2013, 05:20:53 PM »
What are we going to call this new in-ice lake?

Have a ice day!

Vergent

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2013, 05:48:54 PM »
What are we going to call this new in-ice lake?

Lake Barneo?

Vergent

BornFromTheVoid

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2013, 06:15:15 PM »
What are we going to call this new in-ice lake?

Lake Watts!?
I recently joined the twitter thing, where I post more analysis, pics and animations: @Icy_Samuel

Vergent

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2013, 07:22:30 PM »
The upside down lake?

V

TerryM

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2013, 07:28:34 PM »
Loch St. Nicolas?

Espen

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2013, 09:43:44 PM »
It is the first time ever I have seen a lake like this in the at the polearea , in the whole webcam era.
This might be a melt pond in the eyes of a satellite, but not viewed with a human eye at ground (ice) level.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 09:58:22 PM by Espen »
Have a ice day!

Laurent

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2013, 10:42:57 PM »
Can someone spot the webcam on modis or worldview ?
Is it possible ? How to see a precise point ? with worldview they use a different pointer how to convert this coordinate to worldview coordinate ?
 
Pos: 84.76 N, 5.54 W

Jim Hunt

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2013, 10:48:40 PM »
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

Artful Dodger

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Re: Melt Ponds
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2013, 03:13:25 AM »
Loch St. Nicolas?
Hi Terry, more like:

Lack St. Nick  :P
Cheers!
Lodger