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Jim Hunt

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The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« on: September 15, 2024, 08:10:51 PM »
I can resist the clamour no longer! Non sticky for now methinks mod?

Here's your starter for 10. The minimum Arctic sea ice area of 2024 has evidently already been reached. See the AWI AMSR2 version below, courtesy of seaice.de.

However central refreeze seems to be balanced by peripheral melt at the moment. Extent is bouncing gently along the bottom. Perhaps it will still go lower, on at least one of the assorted extent metrics?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2024, 07:59:21 AM by Jim Hunt »
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echoughton

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2024, 08:22:38 PM »
Fantastic! Looking forward to a long, dark, cold winter. Thanks Jim.

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2024, 09:01:36 PM »
Thanks for starting the thread Jim. We will keep both threads sticky until Jaxa extent turns around cleally.

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2024, 05:05:06 AM »
add arctic to the title?

Jim Hunt

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2024, 08:00:21 AM »
This is the Arctic Sea Ice Forum!

Does that look any better mod?
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Jim Hunt

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2024, 10:59:32 AM »
Ponant's polar class 2 cruise ship Le Commandant Charcot has finally found some solid looking sea ice, not far from the North Pole:

https://GreatWhiteCon.info/2024/09/facts-about-the-arctic-in-september-2024/#Sep-16
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Jim Hunt

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2024, 06:02:05 PM »
I was hoping to bring news of an alternative extent metric from the OSI-SAF, but...
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Sambuccu

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2024, 07:28:34 PM »
DMI volume seems interesting. Waiting for Piomas.


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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2024, 11:30:44 PM »
Ponant's polar class 2 cruise ship Le Commandant Charcot has finally found some solid looking sea ice, not far from the North Pole:


Yeah just when we thought things were looking solid Jim, I had a look today at the timestamp 18:52 (but dont know what timezone this is, at the pole ! ) and the screenshot attached shows a largeish area of open water. This I think is not long after leaving the pole. Must be about 89N. The ship is definitely on the move and the next still image it was back into the ice. So still large unfrozen sections even near the pole.

Of curiousity too I notice a small black shadow on the horizon to the left of centre. I have attached a close up image also. It looks to me that this may well be the Polarstern ship which currently is at 88.6 N 125.8 W at 20 UTC.

Niall Dollard

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2024, 12:00:57 AM »
Not all that surprising, when I look at the Polarview sat images. This one taken a couple of days earlier on the 14th, shows plenty of open areas north of 88N to the east of the Pole.

The western and southern side appear more solid in the adjacent images.

https://www.polarview.aq/arctic

Jim Hunt

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2024, 01:33:22 AM »
Of curiousity too I notice a small black shadow on the horizon to the left of centre.

Well spotted sir!
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Jim Hunt

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2024, 11:25:14 AM »
JAXA extent has posted another significant increase.

It now looks highly likely that the 2024 minimum will prove to be 4.07 million km²  on September 13th. Which is a "statistical tie" with 2007 for 5th lowest minimum in the satellite record.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2024, 11:54:14 AM by Jim Hunt »
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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2024, 02:42:45 PM »
DMI volume seems interesting. Waiting for Piomas.



I am not surprised at all and it fits well with the ice movement we saw from late August and throughout the September.
I am also awaiting for PIOMAS, but, from what I saw, PIOMAS tends to align more conservatively with its estimates. Not conservatively in a way of showing higher results than DMI (not at all), it just tends to align more with the perceived extent and area than the DMI's sea ice volume model. I'd say that DMI's model gives better estimates of the general volume and shape of sea ice, at least from what I saw until now.

Regarding the volume estimates rom DMI in September: ice moving towards fram and generally towards the south that late in the season generally means increased volume losses at the expense of final results in terms of extent. Even when you see the ice being pushed towards Laptev, it's like pushing it towards its doom at that point. An open sea that south and that late in the season means only one thing, its accumulated energy will help to melt the sea ice even faster, while the lower latitude also means more energy from the sun is also absorbed by the horizontally aligned ice on the sea surface as well (a double whammy). Due to loss of "steam" that late in the season and close to refreeze taking over, some of the thicker ice floes will survive, but their volume will drastically decrease than it would if they stayed on higher latitudes.

But there's another interesting fact to observe: climatereanalyzer repeatedly showed that the air temperatures across almost all over the Arctic were significantly warmer than usual, not only significantly warmer than the 1981-2000 averages, they were somewhat warmer than the other leading seasons, yet we saw significant decrease compared to these seasons, not only in terms of sea ice extent losses, but also sea ice area losses (and we even saw sea ice gains), much earlier than some of us anticipated. Essentially, we witnessed similar situation like in 2016 and I am yet puzzled whether we'll also see very thin ice in mid and late refreeze period in the season as well, compared to other refreeze periods, of course.

This season also gives us a better picture what we can expect in the future. I.e. the refreeze and minimum low of sea ice area may regularly occur much earlier than we anticipate today once such high latitudes start melting out on a regular basis and with no sea ice present further south. It's mainly due to significantly lower insolation in September on those latitudes than the insolation on latitudes between 80-85 or below 80 degrees North.

This also makes me think of the early refreeze of sea ice area as yet another proof of a disastrous season we saw, as absurd as it sounds, because it had the potential for further melt. In fact I had hoped that we'll see the ice going towards Beaufort in late melt season and early refreeze just like it did in 2012, for instance, yet it went in all the wrong directions, basically setting us up for yet another preparation for a bad refreeze season and ultimately a bad melt season in 2025, lowering the bar for weather to be even less extreme and yet yielding worse result. So the final outcome may look good or better than it could look like just weeks ago, but I'd say it's even worse.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2024, 02:49:17 PM by sadmird »

Jim Hunt

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2024, 06:29:03 PM »
I was hoping to bring news of an alternative extent metric

Sadly the NSIDC sea ice home page still looks like this:
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Jim Hunt

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2024, 10:41:40 AM »
Whoops:

https://osi-saf.eumetsat.int/community/list-of-service-messages/osi-saf-sea-ice-products-still-missing-0

Quote
The OSI SAF sea ice products using only SSMIS data are still missing, since the outage of SSMIS data from NOAA, started on September 11 2024, is continuing. The impacted products are L2 NRT Sea ice concentration OSI-410-a (SSMIS), L3 NRT Sea ice concentration OSI-401-d, Emissivity OSI-404-a, Sea ice index OSI-420 and Sea ice concentration ICDR Fast track OSI-430-a.

We do not have an indication on when the input data will be back to nominal. We apologize for the inconvenience this might cause.

The sea ice edge (OSI-402-d), type (OSI-403-d) and drift (OSI-405-c) products are still being provided, since they are multisensor products and rely more on AMSR2 than SSMIS data.
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Jim Hunt

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2024, 02:23:12 PM »
Some good news on the data front at long last:

https://osi-saf.eumetsat.int/community/list-of-service-messages/resuming-sea-ice-product-generation

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Dear OSI SAF Sea Ice Concentration User,

We are glad to inform that we started receiving SSMIS input data current and backlogged DMSP as of Wed Sep 18 22:01 UTC 2024. We are therefore now generating Level-2 Sea Ice Concentration products (OSI-410-a) for F-16/17/18, we have also generated the Level-3 Sea Ice Concentration (OSI-401-d) and Level-3 Sea Ice Emissivity (OSI-404-a) with timestamp 202409181200.


Best Regards,
OSI SAF Team
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kassy

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2024, 04:50:43 PM »
In case someone wants to look at the data for the current season it starts here:

JAXA ARCTIC SEA ICE EXTENT:  4,141,294 KM2 as at 18-Sep-2024

My 1st posting for the freezing season 2024-25
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Niall Dollard

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2024, 12:47:19 AM »
One of the few areas of progress. An arm beginning to grow towards Wrangel. Click to animate.

Yesterday Jaxa had a small loss and I was not surprised, given the temperatures around much of the basin.

Today temperatures are beginning to dip down again. -13 C at the top of Greenland.

Jim Hunt

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2024, 01:01:23 PM »
Some good news on the data front at long last:

However the NSIDC's Charctic graph doesn't seem to have burst back into life yet.

And the OSI-SAF graph currently looks like this:
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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2024, 03:35:20 PM »
Looks like this year slow extent gain is going to be in the CAA, it looks all but certain its going to be record low as we head through the next few months as there is no significant cold forecast here for the foreseeable.

With the weather patterns how they are, we are also seeing open water developing in an area where it meant to be thick ice. It goes to show how times are changing quite quickly.

I do feel further warming of the CAA could potentially be the answer to getting a BOE one day especially if SSTS do rise significantly within the archipelago

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2024, 04:44:45 PM »
Hello,  I'm just a layman who follows the discussions here...   Would like to know what is the link to access this volume chart directly? 

DMI volume seems interesting. Waiting for Piomas.



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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2024, 05:06:24 PM »
Welcome, Ötzi.

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2024, 05:49:03 PM »
Hello,  I'm just a layman who follows the discussions here...   Would like to know what is the link to access this volume chart directly? 

https://polarportal.dk/en/sea-ice-and-icebergs/sea-ice-thickness-and-volume/

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2024, 06:57:29 PM »

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2024, 06:58:53 PM »
Thank you, Sambuccu!

Hello,  I'm just a layman who follows the discussions here...   Would like to know what is the link to access this volume chart directly? 

https://polarportal.dk/en/sea-ice-and-icebergs/sea-ice-thickness-and-volume/

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2024, 11:19:41 PM »
Looks like this year slow extent gain is going to be in the CAA, it looks all but certain its going to be record low as we head through the next few months as there is no significant cold forecast here for the foreseeable.

With the weather patterns how they are, we are also seeing open water developing in an area where it meant to be thick ice. It goes to show how times are changing quite quickly.

I do feel further warming of the CAA could potentially be the answer to getting a BOE one day especially if SSTS do rise significantly within the archipelago

indeed! One of the things we don't want is for the garlic press to open a lot earlier. Could be a tipping point, of sorts.
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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2024, 12:58:49 AM »
Looks like this year slow extent gain is going to be in the CAA, it looks all but certain its going to be record low as we head through the next few months as there is no significant cold forecast here for the foreseeable.

With the weather patterns how they are, we are also seeing open water developing in an area where it meant to be thick ice. It goes to show how times are changing quite quickly.

I do feel further warming of the CAA could potentially be the answer to getting a BOE one day especially if SSTS do rise significantly within the archipelago

indeed! One of the things we don't want is for the garlic press to open a lot earlier. Could be a tipping point, of sorts.

I'm not fully convinced how much ice actually filters into the CAA in all honesty but I do feel if the Canadian Arctic keeps on warming and it has seen some extreme events in recent years then we may get situations of more frequent southerly winds and open water penetrating into areas we have not seen before especially if the ice in the CAA does start to melt sooner.

I do wonder if one year we will see Hudson Bay fail to fully freeze over, we saw a bizarre melt in Hudson Bay with the eastern half melting before the western half and a large patch of ice ending up lingering right to near the end of August in there western part of the bay and because of that SSTS are not too exceptional but the outlook is looking very warm there and there is very little sign of much cold forecast for the CAA itself.

Things looking a bit better on the Siberian side of the basin, do think as mentioned, we could see an arm of ice quickly connecting to the patch of ice south of Wrangel Island and the Siberian side could freeze quickly whilst the Beaufort could well see a slow refreeze which may lead to even less MYI being around by Spring next year.

Jim Hunt

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2024, 12:17:53 PM »
I'm not fully convinced how much ice actually filters into the CAA in all honesty

Here's a (modelled!) hint from PIOMAS:

https://GreatWhiteCon.info/2024/09/facts-about-the-arctic-in-september-2024/#Sep-21

Quote
Most of the thickest sea ice in the Arctic is now in the Prince Gustaf Adolf Sea, as it moves south through the Canadian Arctic Archipelago.

Plus the other mid-month PIOMAS thickness data:

Quote
The 2024 minimum sea ice volume of 4.04 thousand km³ was reached on September 8th.

Probably!
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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2024, 03:36:54 PM »
Aqua/modis view of that thickest ice area sep16.
https://go.nasa.gov/3Zt0KDe light contrast

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2024, 12:39:24 AM »
Clear view of southern Chukchi sea ice today
https://go.nasa.gov/3Zv9Xe7  no contrast

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2024, 06:33:56 PM »
However the NSIDC's Charctic graph doesn't seem to have burst back into life yet.

There's still some missing data, so I suppose this will have to count as provisional.

However:
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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2024, 06:56:03 PM »
If the refreezing of the Wrangel Arm is the major contributor to extent increase, strong winds from open ocean not going to help in the next days.

However, that anticyclone is going to  keep up Fram export and extent over Greenland Sea may increase even more.

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2024, 08:26:46 PM »
Sort of reminds me of this !

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2024, 02:55:14 PM »
...
However, that anticyclone is going to  keep up Fram export and extent over Greenland Sea may increase even more.

The export has seemed very subdued these past few months, other than perhaps just being fast melting on the margins. But it does look like we may just fill the Greenland sea with some terminal ice while the pack remains very mobile. Seems like a hard thing to measure in a meaningful way.

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2024, 07:04:08 PM »
...
However, that anticyclone is going to  keep up Fram export and extent over Greenland Sea may increase even more.

The export has seemed very subdued these past few months, other than perhaps just being fast melting on the margins. But it does look like we may just fill the Greenland sea with some terminal ice while the pack remains very mobile. Seems like a hard thing to measure in a meaningful way.
The best data we have is from Steven (of course)
 at https://sites.google.com/view/arctic-sea-ice/home/fram?authuser=0

here are the graphs of export via the Fram for sea ice extent, area, & volume to Sept 15 2024, + the map showing the boundary (yellow line)

As usual, minimal export during the summer months.
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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2024, 08:38:44 PM »
Quote
As usual, minimal export during the summer months.
Indeed, and not very surprising considering there was no ice (or barely any) near the demarcation line.

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2024, 08:42:03 PM »
The National Snow and Ice Data Center have formally announced earlier today that:

Quote
On September 11, Arctic sea ice likely reached its annual minimum extent of 4.28 million square kilometers (1.65 million square miles). The 2024 minimum is the seventh lowest in the nearly 46-year satellite record. The last 18 years, from 2007 to 2024, are the lowest 18 sea ice extents in the satellite record…

Note that this is a preliminary announcement. Changing winds or late-season melt could still reduce the Arctic ice extent, as happened in 2005 and 2010. NSIDC scientists will release a full analysis of the Arctic melt season, and discuss the Antarctic winter sea ice growth, in early October.

Needless to say several of the usual cryodenialospheric suspects have been frantically spinning their webs of deceit around the announcement. You can read all about that over at:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,578.msg410993.html#msg410993
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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2024, 11:52:01 AM »
A tale of two seas.

https://det.social/@AlaskaWx@alaskan.social/113177417027678853
Quote
Sea surface temperature departure from the 1991-2020 average for the week ending September 20. Eastern Bering Sea remains cooler than average. Warmer than average water appearing on the Alaska Chukchi Sea coast and across the nearshore Beaufort Sea coast. Eastern Gulf of Alaska warmer than average, western Gulf close to average.

https://sites.google.com/view/sea-ice/startseite
(missing data in the animation has been duplicated)

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2024, 12:47:38 PM »
...
However, that anticyclone is going to  keep up Fram export and extent over Greenland Sea may increase even more.

The export has seemed very subdued these past few months, other than perhaps just being fast melting on the margins. But it does look like we may just fill the Greenland sea with some terminal ice while the pack remains very mobile. Seems like a hard thing to measure in a meaningful way.


Sorry, by “keep up” I actually meant “elevate” or “increase”. My bad English.

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2024, 10:02:08 AM »
No post in 2 days. A very quiet thread.

The attached snipped chart is from Gero's jaxa Arctic extent chart and currently showing extent has almost flatlined.

Jim Hunt

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2024, 11:28:32 AM »
"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

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Jim Hunt

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2024, 02:56:51 PM »
Extent has almost flatlined.

Yesterday's news:

Quote
Extent is currently 5th lowest for the date, but if the pattern continues it will soon drop to 3rd lowest below 2007 and 2019.

Turning next to the weather, there is currently high pressure over the central Arctic as there has been for much of September. That pattern is forecast to continue. Although there are cyclones on the periphery they cannot dislodge the high and infiltrate the Central Arctic Basin.
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nadir

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2024, 05:29:36 PM »
If the refreezing of the Wrangel Arm is the major contributor to extent increase, strong winds from open ocean not going to help in the next days.

This is happening, the pack has superficially refrozen but the winds have not been helping to start the freezing beyond that, over open ocean surface. Anyway, refreezing will probably take off next week, the anticyclone developing over Beaufort should help. It’s pretty dark by now and open ocean is quickly releasing heat excess. As soon as a bit of calm arrives, poof.

Paul

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2024, 02:55:50 AM »
Really extraordinary stuff going on in the archipelago at the moment with ice MELTING in late September. You can also see the affects of the ice moving away from the archipelago with vast amounts of open water developing. It will of course close again as the winds shift but it's another ominous sign of the changing times. I did think a while back we could see something unprecedented along that region given the below average thickness but I thought at the end of August/early September, not late September.

The warm conditions is also affecting snow cover in terms of a lack of it which of course then produces even further warming. There is signs the CAA may finally cool down but still going to be well above average.

Speaking of above average, maybe the high is producing average to below average temperatures over the ice(I'm always dubious of the GFS2M temperatures, it seems to have a cold bias compared to the ECM) but elsewhere it's well above average and I don't mean just the 2M temperatures but the 850's, late September going into October and nowhere is -15hpa or below and that is not looking like changing. There is no doubt in my mind with climate change, the PV is slower to develop and its why the frequency of slow gains at the beginning of the freezing season seems to be getting more common.
 

Niall Dollard

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2024, 02:48:33 PM »
I agree it is quite a remarkably slow start. At this stage much of the holes in the pack have filled in, but satellite images are still showing holes in the pack at the Laptev/ESS side.

There is some deep cold about. Alert Nunavut was down to -22.5° recently. The chart attached shows that temperatures there made a substantial dip on the 24th as the cold Anticyclonic air over the pack moved down. This is after a mild start there earlier in the month. New date max records at Alert were set on 13th and 14th of the month.

But up to now this cold has been very much confined to the high Arctic. There is plenty of heat still about both on land and stored in the sea. Fairbanks Alaska has just recorded its latest ever first frost and much further south Phoenix Arizona has just set a new September heat record of 47.2 C (117F). Very unusual for a heat record to be set so late in the month.

There has been no Arctic outbreaks over north America and snow cover as Paul mentioned is still sparse. The pack has rotated a little away from the CAA recently and ice is also moving down along the east coast of Greenland.

Progress today is still slow just a bit of progression towards Wrangel and towards the Laptev. Beaufort continues very slow.

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2024, 03:52:37 PM »
Canadians confirm ice deficit in Arctic archipelago.

Upd
I tried to attach pictures to the message, but they are not visible. For this reason I am posting links.

https://ice-glaces.ec.gc.ca/prods/CVCHDCTWA/20240923180000_CVCHDCTWA_0013290844.pdf

https://ice-glaces.ec.gc.ca/prods/CVCHDCTEA/20240923180000_CVCHDCTEA_0013290845.pdf

« Last Edit: September 29, 2024, 06:49:04 PM by IceFloe »

uniquorn

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2024, 07:33:22 PM »
Canadians confirm ice deficit in Arctic archipelago.
Upd
I tried to attach pictures to the message, but they are not visible. For this reason I am posting links.
<>

IceFloe image

Polar Vortex structure still embryonic


Jontenoy

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2024, 05:41:44 PM »
Accuracy of satellite data :  I noticed something very interesting on Climate Reanalyzer. After hurricane Helene swept through the Caribbean, the SST of that area of the ocean dropped quite noticeably, presumably due to the churning of the surface waters. It reinforces one's faith in the accuracy of the data !

Jim Hunt

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2024, 12:35:14 PM »
JAXA extent is now 3rd lowest for the date (in the satellite era!):
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Jim Hunt

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Re: The 2024/25 Arctic freezing season
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2024, 06:42:37 PM »
I cannot help but think that this remarkably cloud free satellite image from the NWP thread is also worth an airing in here:

Click to embiggen:



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