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gerontocrat

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2024, 08:09:56 PM »
Maybe they should slap on all the tariffs they can. It should help against overconsumption.
A trade war would cause a recession, maybe even a depression, probably reducing CO2 emissions - for a bit.
Probably, the reaction to that would be tyhen to chuck stimuli (subsidies, tax breaks) around like confetti without regard to the climate / environmental consequences. Result, CO2 emissions bounce back.

i.e. the Covid and post-Covid experience repeated.
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Rodius

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2024, 12:02:24 AM »
Maybe they should slap on all the tariffs they can. It should help against overconsumption.
A trade war would cause a recession, maybe even a depression, probably reducing CO2 emissions - for a bit.
Probably, the reaction to that would be tyhen to chuck stimuli (subsidies, tax breaks) around like confetti without regard to the climate / environmental consequences. Result, CO2 emissions bounce back.

i.e. the Covid and post-Covid experience repeated.

I dont understand why Trump thinks tariffs will solve everything.

I think Trump believes the threats will be enough to get everyone to bend the knee to him... I mean the US.

Because, if the world grows a pair and refuses to play the game Trump wants, then the US will see skyrocketing prices and inflation while punishing the general population and the global community at the same time.

And if the world decides to not play with the US, the world will reorganise the global economy away from the US, which will hurt the US and, ultimately, when the tariffs are removed, will mean the price for goods will be more because the rest of the world reorganised itself and can charge more because demand is no longer focused on the US.

There is no scenario where tariffs work for Trump if the world just accepts the situation of tariffs and takes on the pain of reorganizing the global economy away from the US. It will hurt short term for everyone, but the longer to happens the better the rest of the world will become.

The only question is whether the global community is willing to take the required pain to dismantle the US economic dominance.

vox_mundi

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2024, 12:40:26 AM »
There are 3 classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus

gerontocrat

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2024, 06:54:35 PM »
Donald Trump gives an interview to NBC on his agenda for Trump_Presidency_2

Maybe he actually said what he is actually going to do?

I have added my bold and italics to the article below which is mercifully brief.

https://vinnews.com/2024/12/08/president-elect-trump-reveals-bold-second-term-agenda-in-first-exclusive-nbc-interview/
Quote
President-Elect Trump Reveals Bold Second-Term Agenda in First Exclusive NBC Interview

WASHINGTON – Donald Trump, the President-elect, shared his vision for his upcoming term in an exclusive interview on NBC’s Meet the Press. He discussed his policy priorities, including immigration reform, legislative support for Dreamers, and economic initiatives.

Key Policy Goals
Trump reaffirmed his intention to pardon individuals convicted in connection with the January 6 Capitol riot, citing concerns over their treatment in prison. On immigration, he proposed mass deportations for undocumented immigrants and aimed to end birthright citizenship. However, he expressed openness to bipartisan legislation to allow Dreamers to remain in the U.S.

The President-elect also plans to continue his 2017 tax reforms by extending existing cuts. While opposing restrictions on abortion pills, he remains committed to reducing government spending without cutting Social Security or Medicare benefits.

Economic and Domestic Policy
A priority for Trump is implementing tariffs on imports from key trading partners, despite acknowledging the potential for higher costs for American families. He signaled openness to raising the federal minimum wage and pledged not to replace Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell.

On healthcare, Trump criticized the Affordable Care Act but admitted his administration still lacks a concrete replacement plan, describing his approach as “concepts of a plan.”

Foreign Policy and Unity
Abroad, Trump intends to reassess U.S. commitments to NATO unless member nations meet financial obligations. He expressed skepticism about prolonged military aid to Ukraine and commented on Syrian President Bashar al-Assad’s tenure amid ongoing conflict.

In Paris for the reopening of Notre Dame Cathedral, Trump discussed achieving peace in Ukraine with French President Emmanuel Macron and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy.

A Message of Unity
Trump pledged to deliver a message of national unity at his second inaugural address, contrasting with the “American carnage” rhetoric of 2017. “No American carnage this time,” he assured.

For Americans who did not support him, Trump promised fair treatment, saying, “I’ll treat you every bit as well as my greatest MAGA supporters.”
"I wasn't expecting that quite so soon" kiwichick16
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

etienne

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2024, 07:33:22 PM »
Regarding the NBC interview, the Spiegel in Germany mainly talks about the NATO, that Trump wants the US to get out of it if Europe doesn't pay enough.

I guess it is bluff, but somehow believe that with such an unpredictable leader, we might be better off without the US in the NATO.

LeftyLarry

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2024, 07:49:56 PM »
Maybe they should slap on all the tariffs they can. It should help against overconsumption.
A trade war would cause a recession, maybe even a depression, probably reducing CO2 emissions - for a bit.
Probably, the reaction to that would be tyhen to chuck stimuli (subsidies, tax breaks) around like confetti without regard to the climate / environmental consequences. Result, CO2 emissions bounce back.

i.e. the Covid and post-Covid experience repeated.

I dont understand why Trump thinks tariffs will solve everything.

I think Trump believes the threats will be enough to get everyone to bend the knee to him... I mean the US.

Because, if the world grows a pair and refuses to play the game Trump wants, then the US will see skyrocketing prices and inflation while punishing the general population and the global community at the same time.

And if the world decides to not play with the US, the world will reorganise the global economy away from the US, which will hurt the US and, ultimately, when the tariffs are removed, will mean the price for goods will be more because the rest of the world reorganised itself and can charge more because demand is no longer focused on the US.

There is no scenario where tariffs work for Trump if the world just accepts the situation of tariffs and takes on the pain of reorganizing the global economy away from the US. It will hurt short term for everyone, but the longer to happens the better the rest of the world will become.

The only question is whether the global community is willing to take the required pain to dismantle the US economic dominance.

Actually, you are wrong.
Think about it, you are wealthy and buying cheap things from other people and they often refuse to buy anything from you because they want to protect their friends jobs .

You lose jobs and you then need to pay those who lost those jobs in the form of welfare and health care and the Bottomline is those goods you are buying are not so cheap anymore .

The U.S. has gladly allowed itself to be abused by friend and foe alike because we have had such a great economy for such a long time , however, now , as you smart fellows here love to point out , the U.S.  has problems , mostly brought on by the Left but problems none the less and our so- called allies and trading partners could care less and exacerbate them.

For many years, we have allowed China to sell us cheap, often inferior goods but we continued on anyway with them because cheap helped the poor.

When China’s balance of payments became to one sided , a good trading partner then  purchases from the other side, China however goes out of its way not to purchase anything from the U.S. and instead tries to open other markets by purchasing god they could purchase from America, elsewhere .Additionally, they participate in industrial and Technological theft continuously, stealing 100’s of billions every year.
Lastly, they have set upon a program of sending illegal drugs like fentanyl especially to the U.s., much of it comes from China and the Chinese Government knows it.

If you sell drugs in China , you get the Death penalty, so China has little drug problem, yet the Government there looks the other way and allows drug dealers to send cheap deadly  drugs over to America and the death toll has been enormous.

People who lost their jobs to China and their children especially, are easy prey for dealers, in those Rust Belt areas and it’s the reason our life expectancy is lower than reality.If you take gun Deaths ( often drug related)  and fentanyl and other illicit drugs out of the equation, our lifespans get very high but I digress.

What weapon does America have against countries like China, even our friends in Mexico and Canada When we allow them to trade with us at huge imbalances and then they either directly send us drugs and illegal immigrants that we don’t want or they act as clearing houses for drugs and people We don’t want.

Our only other choice is to declare these actions acts of war and I don’t think you ugly anti- American , ingrates would like that better.

So, Bottomline is Trump uses Tarrifs as a threat, as leverage, to get fair play from our trading partners , it seems to me this is a reasonable approach.

Remember, the U.S. doesn’t need food, we have enough energy when we go back to manufacturing it next month, we have gas, coal, oil and Uranium, not to mention, wind, solar , water.
We lead in Technology and medical research , we can go back to manufacturing all of our drugs, cars and bring home the outsourced jobs we allowed to go to India, Asia etc

We also are there to defend our allies , our real allies if and when they need it, life changes very quickly when the U.s. decides not to act and mind its own business and if you think the Chinese don’t have evil intentions you aren’t watching as they fle military might and increase military assets every day throughout the world.

Wake up and smell the roses or learn Mandarin and Russian quickly.  House to either be with the U.S. or with China, Russia, North Korea and Iran, that’s a nice group worried about woke things, isn’t it.


LeftyLarry

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2024, 08:20:35 PM »
Regarding the NBC interview, the Spiegel in Germany mainly talks about the NATO, that Trump wants the US to get out of it if Europe doesn't pay enough.

I guess it is bluff, but somehow believe that with such an unpredictable leader, we might be better off without the US in the NATO.
Why shouldn’t EUROPE pay its fair share?

LeftyLarry

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2024, 08:33:26 PM »
A meeting between Left Larry and Robert Reich would be quite something.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/dec/06/trump-cabinet-picks-robert-reich
Quote
Trump’s cabinet picks aren’t just ‘loyalists’. They’re groveling, subservient yes-men
Robert Reich

All of Trump’s nominees are unprincipled enablers who are unlikely to push back when he makes reckless decisions

Fri 6 Dec 2024 11.00 GMT

The media has it all wrong about Trump’s picks for his administration. The conventional view is they’re “Trump loyalists” whom Trump “recruited”.

Rubbish.

First, they’re not loyalists; they’re subservient hacks.

There’s a crucial difference.

All politicians want their underlings to be loyal, but Trump wants them to be more loyal to him than to the nation, and he demands total subservience without regard to right or wrong.

For the FBI, Trump has picked Kash Patel, who has pledged to prosecute Trump’s political opponents and “come after the people in the media who lied about American citizens who helped Joe Biden rig the presidential election”.

Trump’s selection for attorney general, Pam Bondi, has said that when Trump returns to power, “the prosecutors will be prosecuted”.

Moreover, Trump didn’t recruit these people or anybody else. They recruited him.

Every one of his nominees campaigned for these jobs by engaging in conspicuous displays of submission and flattery directed toward Trump.

Elise Stefanik, whom Trump has nominated to be US ambassador to the United Nations, repeatedly boasted that she was the first lawmaker to endorse Trump’s re-election bid.

Before Trump tapped Kristi Noem to head the Department of Homeland Security, she sent him a 4ft replica of Mount Rushmore with Trump’s face next to those of Washington, Jefferson, Theodore Roosevelt and Lincoln.

Mike Waltz, whom Trump has picked for national security adviser, supported a move in Congress to rename Washington Dulles international airport the “Donald J Trump international airport”.

Lee Zeldin, whom Trump has picked for EPA administrator, said publicly that the criminal prosecutions of Trump were akin to Putin’s persecution of the Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny.

Stephen Miller, who will be a Trump White House adviser, said during a Fox News interview that Trump is the “most stylish president” in our lifetimes. “Donald Trump is a style icon!”

Ten of Trump’s picks so far were Fox News hosts or contributors who repeatedly mouthed Trump’s lies about the 2020 election being stolen, about January 6 being a “peaceful protest” and about Biden being the force behind Trump’s prosecutions.

Some of Trump’s picks showed up at his criminal trial in Manhattan, where they verbally attacked members of the presiding judge’s family on behalf of Trump, who was under a rule of silence.

Some picks appeared at his campaign rallies, expanding on Trump’s lies and lavishing him with praise.

Many made large donations to Trump’s campaign. Five of his picks so far are billionaires.

All knew that Trump wanted people who would do whatever he asked of them. So they prostrated themselves to show their deference to him.

All knew that Trump liked to be fawned over. So they debased themselves by giving him gushing compliments.

They knew that Trump wanted people lacking an independent moral compass. So they went out of their way to demonstrate they have no integrity by retelling Trump’s lies in public with even more verve and intensity than he displayed when telling them.

Time and again they have performed acts of cringeworthy subservience toward Trump, proving themselves reliable conduits for his scheming vindictiveness.

Trump’s toadies are even less likely to cross him. To the contrary: they’ll egg him on

This is a rare bunch. How many Americans would eagerly repeat to national audiences baldfaced lies spouted by an authoritarian – lies that undermine our democracy? How many Americans would publicly grovel before Trump, making it clear they’ll do whatever he asks of them regardless of consequence?

To be a member of this unique group, one needs to be both colossally ambitious and profoundly insecure, willing to demean oneself to gain Trump’s favor.

Trump didn’t find these people; these people found Trump. And to get in his good graces, they saw to it that he noticed their servile deference, fawning adulation and total submission.


But these people will also bring about Trump’s downfall, and possibly the downfall of America.[/i]

That’s because one of the most important things a president needs is accurate and useful feedback. These are in short supply even in the best of administrations.

People who work for a president are often reluctant to be bearers of bad news. Presidents are typically surrounded by yes-men and -women afraid to say anything that will ruffle powerful feathers.

As a result, presidents can make huge mistakes – invading Iraq and Afghanistan, deregulating Wall Street and then bailing it out when its gambling gets out of hand, pardoning Richard Nixon, waging war in Vietnam.

Trump’s toadies are even less likely to cross him. To the contrary, they’ll egg him on.

The years ahead would be dangerous enough if Trump sought out unprincipled enablers.

The coming years will be even more perilous because unprincipled enablers have sought out Trump.

Robert Reich, a former US secretary of labor, is a professor of public policy at the University of California, Berkeley, and the author of Saving Capitalism: For the Many, Not the Few and The Common Good. His newest book, The System: Who Rigged It, How We Fix It, is out now. He is a Guardian US columnist. His newsletter is at robertreich.substack.com

Robert REICH  hadn’t had any credibility for 20 years, he’s about 4’10, I’ve seen him in person and he found out in life that the only way he has any power is by being a Leftist, the more outlandish Leftist things he says the more he makes up for his size! LOL
This is the guy who went on National TV about 5-6 years ago and tried to convince people, with a serious, straight  face that ANTIFA terrorists who attacked people at Berkeley who were waiting to hear a Mainstream Rightwing speaker , might be Right wing activists because they were wearing masks and we can’t identify them.
He has no credibility and hadn’t had any since the Clinton Administration , a little man trying to make himself relevant the only way he can, by being a hardcore Leftist.

kassy

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2024, 08:49:04 PM »
It would be antithetical to the surround Russia strategy so that will not happen. Some of the richer stragglers will pledge to the 2% and it will be fine.

Not sure what the billionaire boys are going to do to the US but we will see.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Neven

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2024, 10:09:28 PM »
Why shouldn’t EUROPE pay its fair share?

Because it's a wealth transfer via US weapon manufacturers. Why should the people of Europe send money to US oligarchs?
The next great division of the world will be between people who wish to live as creatures
and people who wish to live as machines.

Wendell Berry, Life Is a Miracle

LeftyLarry

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2024, 11:30:08 PM »
Why shouldn’t EUROPE pay its fair share?

Because it's a wealth transfer via US weapon manufacturers. Why should the people of Europe send money to US oligarchs?

Because you want, though you refuse to admit it for the U.S. to defend you, why should the American people defend people who by treaty don’t live up to their obligations?

I say F- k EUROPE then, maybe we’d be better of hooking  up with Putin and the European countries who actually conduct themselves like allies.


Why should Americans pay for Merceds Benz, same wealth transfer.


Rodius

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #61 on: December 09, 2024, 12:13:40 AM »

For many years, we have allowed China to sell us cheap, often inferior goods but we continued on anyway with them because cheap helped the poor.

China sells cheap crap because that is what the US orders from them.

You have failed to understand the bare basics of trade and manufacturing.
Companies in the US make an order with the specifications for the product.
China makes the product and sends it to the company.
The US company sells those goods for a profit as cheaply as possible to undercut the opposition.
And the US population buys the cheapest version.

And when that happens, you blame China for making the inferior products the US companies ordered.... this is basic stuff. You cant blame China for the problem when they are making products as per instructions from the buyer.

China makes a lot of excellent products as well but I suppose you think that is the mighty US doing that and not China.


When China’s balance of payments became to one sided , a good trading partner then  purchases from the other side, China however goes out of its way not to purchase anything from the U.S. and instead tries to open other markets by purchasing god they could purchase from America, elsewhere .Additionally, they participate in industrial and Technological theft continuously, stealing 100’s of billions every year.


When balance of payments occur, a country will trade with the place that provides the products they want at the cheapest price. That is called capitalism, something the US is proud to boast about and rant on about free trade.

BUT... when it doesnt work in favor for the US they cry like little bitches about it.

Business is business, it isnt doing deals for friends and neighbors that are bad for one side or the other.

China doesnt go out of its way to avoid buying US products, they get the products from the place that provides the product for the cheapest price. This is fair enough. The US does it all the time and is now avoiding and punishing China for doing the exact same thing.



Lastly, they have set upon a program of sending illegal drugs like fentanyl especially to the U.s., much of it comes from China and the Chinese Government knows it.

The US has a drug problem and doesnt handle it at all.

And since the US is failing to deal with their addiction, they blame the dealer.

Selling drugs to countries, especially enemies, has a long tradition in history. You should read up on how opium was used by the British to undermine China... it is kinda funny that China is doing the same thing to the US. And the irony of the CIA being drug runners isnt lost on me either.

Hyporite much?

Hey, I have said this before, but if you want to fix the drug problem in the US, legalise it, treat problems as health issues, and sort it out that way. At least the drugs will be predictable and safe to use and would probably kill the fentanyn problem. Fentanyn is a crazy stupid drug to take but when other options are removed, why not take it. Druggies arent know for good decision making but if a cheaper and safer drug is available without legal consequences, they buy it.


People who lost their jobs to China and their children especially, are easy prey for dealers, in those Rust Belt areas and it’s the reason our life expectancy is lower than reality. If you take gun Deaths ( often drug related)  and fentanyl and other illicit drugs out of the equation, our lifespans get very high but I digress.

This demonstrates your ignorance again.

People lost their jobs to China because US companies gave their manufacturing orders to China.

China didnt steal anything or break the rules, they applied the rules of capitalism and did it better and cheaper than the US and the US bought into it.

When globalisation started it was obvious to me at the time that this would happen. Everyone loved the idea of cheaper goods but the general population failed to understand that jobs in rich countries would be lost and the rich economies would be weakened over time because manufacturing is the backbone to strong economies.

The companies profiting from cheap products didnt care even though they knew what would happen over the long term because companies dont give a shit about twenty years later. This years profits, and next pears profits is all the matters.

And it worked. US companies made huge profits while gutting the US lol.

It is fucking hilarious when you think about it.

You complain about and blame China when it is a US self inflicted wound and you still cant see it. No wonder you voted for Trump.



Our only other choice is to declare these actions acts of war and I don’t think you ugly anti- American , ingrates would like that better.

Actually, there are other options but war is all the US knows.

So us ingrates get to follow the US lead into wars that dont need to happen and we get to watch our people die so US companies can make a profit.

And you wonder why we are on our knees bowing to the greatness that is the US of fucking A.

So, Bottomline is Trump uses Tarrifs as a threat, as leverage, to get fair play from our trading partners , it seems to me this is a reasonable approach.

The bottom line if the US lost the war of capitalism.

China played fair, used its advantages for its benefit, and now they are winning.

The US cries foul and begins to use the leverage the US has to gain back some ground. But the leverage the US uses isnt to manufacture better and cheaper than China, it uses unfair tactics that, ironically, will end up hurting the US more.

The way I see the US use of tariffs is like this... a guy with a knife threatens his enemy with the knife and begins to swing wildly to inflict wounds of their enemy but in the process begins to self inflict wounds while saying, "If you dont do what I tell you, I will keep cuting us both."

The US create globalism and now it isnt working for the US the US does what it always does an wants to change the rules of engagement regardless of the legality of it all.

Tarriffs dont work, we begin shooting and blame everyone else for the US violence on others.


Remember, the U.S. doesn’t need food, we have enough energy when we go back to manufacturing it next month, we have gas, coal, oil and Uranium, not to mention, wind, solar , water.
We lead in Technology and medical research , we can go back to manufacturing all of our drugs, cars and bring home the outsourced jobs we allowed to go to India, Asia etc

We also are there to defend our allies , our real allies if and when they need it, life changes very quickly when the U.s. decides not to act and mind its own business and if you think the Chinese don’t have evil intentions you aren’t watching as they fle military might and increase military assets every day throughout the world.

Wake up and smell the roses or learn Mandarin and Russian quickly.  House to either be with the U.S. or with China, Russia, North Korea and Iran, that’s a nice group worried about woke things, isn’t it.

If the US doesnt need outside food... feed yourself. But that would mean US companies would have to reduce their profits because other countries are prepared to pay more than the locals.

You can feed yourself easily enough, but it isnt as profitable.

And if you think US manufacturing can do everything the US requires next month, you have no idea what is involved for that to happen. At best, it will take at least 15 years to do that assuming 100% cooperation between the US govt and private companies.

How funny would it be if Trump forced private companies to do things for the good of the US?
Can you see the irony in that? Probably not.

I have seen how the US defends it allies... it isnt pretty. It would be wonderful if the US removed its bases off Australia, for example, because it would remove the nuclear threat for us entirely and we wont have to send our people to fight US wars, and we wouldnt have to make idiotic deals for submarines we dont need... that sounds fantastic... lets hope the US does it.

But it wont because the US likes the control and profits from places like Australia.

Unlike you, we dont look at China and Russia as deadly enemies. We can trade with them, both sides do well, there are no signs from China that it is expansionist. If China did attack Australia (not sure why they would other than to take out US bases) it would be a shitshow for them. It is cheaper, less deadly, and more profitable to trade for the goods they need from us.

Only the US thinks wars are needed to do well.

The only thing the US is really good at and I suspect most people agree with this is they made global shipping lanes safer.
But, that was mostly to ensure globalisation could happen.
And since the US doesnt want that anymore, the safer seas the US provides could end.

But, maybe the seas would remain relatively safe anyway because the world likes trading with each other these days.

Neven

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #62 on: December 09, 2024, 12:32:08 AM »
Because you want, though you refuse to admit it for the U.S. to defend you, why should the American people defend people who by treaty don’t live up to their obligations?

I say F- k EUROPE then, maybe we’d be better of hooking  up with Putin and the European countries who actually conduct themselves like allies.

Why should Americans pay for Merceds Benz, same wealth transfer.

I'm sorry, masta. Please, protect us with your hamburgers and silicone tits.
The next great division of the world will be between people who wish to live as creatures
and people who wish to live as machines.

Wendell Berry, Life Is a Miracle

be cause

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #63 on: December 09, 2024, 12:49:02 AM »
can someone move this crap off the front page please
We live in a Quantum universe . Do you live like you do ?

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #64 on: December 09, 2024, 05:07:49 AM »


When China’s balance of payments became to one sided , a good trading partner then  purchases from the other side, China however goes out of its way not to purchase anything from the U.S. and instead tries to open other markets by purchasing god they could purchase from America, elsewhere .Additionally, they participate in industrial and Technological theft continuously, stealing 100’s of billions every year.


When balance of payments occur, a country will trade with the place that provides the products they want at the cheapest price. That is called capitalism, something the US is proud to boast about and rant on about free trade.

BUT... when it doesnt work in favor for the US they cry like little bitches about it.

Business is business, it isnt doing deals for friends and neighbors that are bad for one side or the other.

China doesnt go out of its way to avoid buying US products, they get the products from the place that provides the product for the cheapest price. This is fair enough. The US does it all the time and is now avoiding and punishing China for doing the exact same thing.


I have been trying to explain this to people but no one seems to understand. The trade imbalance between China and the rest of the world is strictly enforced by use of dual currencies. The Chinese people can't buy more foreign goods than the government provides the foreign spending currency. They can't buy foreign goods with the internal currency. If the Chinese government did not limit their peoples access to foreign spending currency by making it very expensive to the Chinese people they would buy more foreign goods. Simply put the trade imbalance between China and the rest of the world is controlled by Chinese policy. Until the rest of the world wakes up to the insidiousness of the policy the imbalances will remain exactly as dictated by the Chinese government.   
« Last Edit: December 09, 2024, 05:16:14 AM by interstitial »

interstitial

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #65 on: December 09, 2024, 05:13:29 AM »
China did not "play fair" no one does they just changed the rules they operate by and so far no government has come up with a counter move.


I do not agree with LeftyLarry on much but China is a problem for the whole world not just the US. Complaining about it just makes the Chinese smug. I am not mad at the Chinese for doing it. I am mad at the rest of the worlds governments especially the US for not doing anything about it. This is not a US only problem. Europe and many other countries are being crushed by it and struggling to respond as well.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2024, 05:26:22 AM by interstitial »

gerontocrat

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #66 on: December 09, 2024, 08:01:57 AM »
can someone move this crap off the front page please
I started this thread because I am interested in what Trump_Presidency_2 is going to do.
But as I should have known, it has morphed into people bellowing opinions at each other.

So someone please remove it from the front page. Meanwhile, I have locked it.
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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #67 on: December 10, 2024, 12:45:43 AM »
I havent been able to figure out why Trump is doing the tariffs that is beneficial to the US.

I think I have a potential answer.

He wants to create a situation where the US economy, and the global economy, crashes because that means the bail out situation appears much like it did in 2008 and 2020.

While the economic world suffered, the transfer of wealth toward the wealth was on steroids and the rich became richer much faster.

I'm not saying this is the only reason, but I think it plays a big part in why Trump is prepping for a massive recession that requires bail outs.

I am going to put that onto my list of predictions.

Trump supporters, when this happens, I hope you figure out that Trump and his mates truly dont give a shit about any of you so long as you remain faithful believers. To understand why I think this, take a look at the wealth transfer and how quickly the rich increased their wealth between 2008 and 2016 and it should be obvious that this can be deliberately manufactured.

SteveMDFP

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #68 on: December 10, 2024, 12:10:27 PM »
I havent been able to figure out why Trump is doing the tariffs that is beneficial to the US.

I think I have a potential answer.

He wants to create a situation where the US economy, and the global economy, crashes because that means the bail out situation appears much like it did in 2008 and 2020.

While the economic world suffered, the transfer of wealth toward the wealth was on steroids and the rich became richer much faster.

I'm not saying this is the only reason, but I think it plays a big part in why Trump is prepping for a massive recession that requires bail outs.

I am going to put that onto my list of predictions.

We've discussed the likelihood of a US-centered crash over on the inequality thread.  i agree that a crash (or bursting of the existing bubble) is likely. 

I disagree that Trump is engineering this outcome.  He isn't remotely that clever.  He won't listen to those who are clever enough to do this.  On macroeconomic issues, he's frankly stupid.  He won't listen to anyone who disagrees with his absurdly simplistic ideas, he's too much of a narcissist to be sufficiently humble to listen.

With a massive asset bubble already inflated right now, he merely needs to make any of a number of mistakes for the bubble to burst.  Or do nothing wrong at all, and it will burst of its own accord.  Since we now have a bull in the china shop, it's likely that the precipitation of the bubble burst will happen in apparent consequence of something he does.

zenith

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #69 on: December 10, 2024, 12:38:40 PM »
I havent been able to figure out why Trump is doing the tariffs that is beneficial to the US.

trump doesn't understand that the united states is an empire, not a country. it's a real problem in the american culture as they think they're the most powerful country in the world because they're exceptional, not because so much of the world invests in their empire and that requires give and take. the world reserve currency requires responsibilities like running trade deficits to keep the wheels greased but trump doesn't understand much of anything.

he's trying to go back to the 1970's before the united states engaged in globalization and the rust belt was still an operating manufacturing base but that's going to be difficult to accomplish. the united states and the collective west more broadly have a hard time competing these days due to higher wages/costs. tariffs/protectionism are an admission that they can't compete.

one way or another he'll be a disaster, he's an idiot. he likes having rallies though, that feeds his ego which is what really matters.
Where is reality? Can you show it to me? - Heinz von Foerster

Rodius

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #70 on: December 10, 2024, 01:04:28 PM »
I have no idea if Trump is stupid or a genius... he has a gift to bring in the people around him, and he is incredibly selfish (narcissist), and he listens to people who make him richer.

The idea that he uses tariffs fits into his mindset of using power and influence to make others do his bidding, in that regard, tariffs will do that job for many countries, he is likely to like that idea.

Tariffs as a means to equal the playing field for US manufacturers... it wont work. Also, the manufacturing the US requires and what it has it canyons apart and will take at least a decade to ramp it up properly, so tariffs wont help with that much but it will make him look good even though it is a disaster in the making... but perceptions matter. He will like that.

Economic war with China makes him look like a strong man... yep, tick there.

But, on top of that, a collapse of the economy (blame Biden) will require bailouts the increase the wealth of those at the top, and Trump can position himself to reap those rewards... he will like that as well.

When hard times hit, the general population is more malleable... another tick

The more I consider how he perceives tariffs, the more I think he is likely aware of what will happen and how to use the consequences for the benefit of himself and his friends.

I am starting to think the tariffs are quite a clever act on Trump's part (not all his idea but sold on the idea).

People continually underestimate him, and that needs to stop and we need to take him deadly seriously. Stop calling him stupid, stop undermining him, because it is part of the allure, but of his game.

So... bring the economy down, increase inflation (will that help with the debt problem? I think it will), do bail outs and enrich themselves, use the pain of the population to increase his influence and power.

All he needs to do is not take it too far, keep the people entertained, and create a significant US verse Them storyline with whoever the US is targeting next.

My money is on the Middle East... that will cause more economic disruption so there is a double bonus in the above approach.

All he needs to do is stop the Ukraine war... not sure that will happen but it might.

I dont think Trumps approach is idiotic, I dont think it is a mistake, I think it is deliberate.

I dislike what I am seeing a lot because it makes sense given the nature of the beast.

Wars arent the main problem unless it gets out of hand, and his approach may not even require a war in the Middle East if the focus is global recession and breaking economies.

The question is how will Iran and the Middle East respond to these tactics... I suspect their economies will suffer... and economic war is  in the US playbook and they are very good at it... it is how they brought down the USSR.

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #71 on: December 10, 2024, 01:16:06 PM »
So someone please remove it from the front page. Meanwhile, I have locked it.

I was hoping you'd keep it locked.

What Trump is going to do, is serve concentrated wealth. The system won't change, both fake and real wealth will continue to be accumulated and concentrated. Trump's successor will do the same.

There, I saved you 8 years of your life. You can do something else now.

Meanwhile, I will remove this thread from the front page, because I know people won't be doing something else.
The next great division of the world will be between people who wish to live as creatures
and people who wish to live as machines.

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zenith

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #72 on: December 10, 2024, 02:45:48 PM »
What Trump is going to do, is serve concentrated wealth. The system won't change, both fake and real wealth will continue to be accumulated and concentrated. Trump's successor will do the same.

There, I saved you 8 years of your life. You can do something else now.

if he tried to do a bunch of the stuff he's promised there'd be an internal war and the establishment would pop him. he'll do tax breaks for the rich and make isreal greater though.

i can save everyone a whole bunch of time on all sorts of subjects:

MAN
Where is reality? Can you show it to me? - Heinz von Foerster

Freegrass

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #73 on: December 13, 2024, 10:44:35 PM »
Thom Hartmann is seeing what I'm seeing. There’s more to the J6 pardons than meets the eye.

When factual science is in conflict with our beliefs or traditions, we cuddle up in our own delusional fantasy where everything starts making sense again.

zenith

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #74 on: December 13, 2024, 10:50:16 PM »
Thom Hartmann is seeing what I'm seeing. There’s more to the J6 pardons than meets the eye.

Thom Hartmann, another insufferable fool.
Where is reality? Can you show it to me? - Heinz von Foerster

zenith

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #75 on: December 13, 2024, 11:03:35 PM »
what people never take into account is that the united states is an empire and both parties are funded by corporations/oligarchs/special interests like AIPAC.

let's do a basic summary of the empire just from off the top off my head, feel free to add to the list.

- 800+ foreign military bases
- NATO
- the world reserve currency
- the SWIFT system
- the international monetary fund (IMF)
- the world bank
- the bank for international settlements (the BIS)
- 17 intelligence agencies including the CIA
- the FBI
- the 5 eyes intelligence network


just a basic draft.
Where is reality? Can you show it to me? - Heinz von Foerster

zenith

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #76 on: December 13, 2024, 11:10:33 PM »
does trump understand what he's up against, i doubt it. he'll have a better idea than the first time but american mythology and chauvinism is so strong inside the USofA bubble it's almost incomprehensible to the average american including trump.

i forgot all the soft/cultural power - hollywood, big tech./media, 'murican "culture" like mcdonald's and starbucks.
Where is reality? Can you show it to me? - Heinz von Foerster

zenith

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #77 on: December 13, 2024, 11:25:12 PM »
countless think tanks/foundations/ngo.

trump thinks it's a country, it's $36 trillion in debt...
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Rodius

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #78 on: December 14, 2024, 12:53:06 AM »
what people never take into account is that the united states is an empire and both parties are funded by corporations/oligarchs/special interests like AIPAC.

let's do a basic summary of the empire just from off the top off my head, feel free to add to the list.

- 800+ foreign military bases
- NATO
- the world reserve currency
- the SWIFT system
- the international monetary fund (IMF)
- the world bank
- the bank for international settlements (the BIS)
- 17 intelligence agencies including the CIA
- the FBI
- the 5 eyes intelligence network


just a basic draft.

This is why I laugh at people who think Russia and China have a large military and are fearful that the growth of the Chinese military is a serious problem or they think it is China prepping to expand their domain.

China will take Taiwan not because it has a massive military, they will do it because they have home advantage and a very defensive orientated military.

I struggle to understand how anyone can argue against the US being a global empire given the evidence at hand.

Things you didnt mention...

 - the ability to use propaganda in other countries, it doesnt matter if they are friends or foes. The power of propaganda is vastly understated.
 - the ability to determine who leads a country, or are able to manipulate the leadership of a country to do the USAs bidding via political stresses.
 - economic bullying (about to see that in full force soon).

LeftyLarry

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #79 on: December 15, 2024, 03:43:33 AM »
So someone please remove it from the front page. Meanwhile, I have locked it.

I was hoping you'd keep it locked.

What Trump is going to do, is serve concentrated wealth. The system won't change, both fake and real wealth will continue to be accumulated and concentrated. Trump's successor will do the same.

There, I saved you 8 years of your life. You can do something else now.

Meanwhile, I will remove this thread from the front page, because I know people won't be doing something else.

1. Trump only has 4 years.

2. The working class got poorer under the Democrats , it will get richer under Trump, everyone will.

LeftyLarry

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #80 on: December 15, 2024, 05:23:05 AM »
Because you want, though you refuse to admit it for the U.S. to defend you, why should the American people defend people who by treaty don’t live up to their obligations?

I say F- k EUROPE then, maybe we’d be better of hooking  up with Putin and the European countries who actually conduct themselves like allies.

Why should Americans pay for Merceds Benz, same wealth transfer.

I'm sorry, masta. Please, protect us with your hamburgers and silicone tits.

Sad, your ignorance, jealousy  and  hatred, I think you like the Internet too almost as much as the silicone tits, U.S had nothing to do with that either, did it?

I guess you don’t need AI either, do you, just hamburgers.
I like mine with ketchup on one side of the sesame bun  , mayonnaise on the other side, lettuce, tomato, onion and 1 nice thick mouth watering beef Pattie with Wisconsin cheddar cheese melted on it!



The Walrus

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #81 on: December 15, 2024, 01:48:13 PM »
I like mine with lettuce and tomato, Heinz 57 and French fried potatoes, big kosher pickle and a cold draft beer.

Neven

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #82 on: December 15, 2024, 02:06:20 PM »
I like mine with CAFO meat and as many additives as possible, preferably some aspartame, MSG and glyphosate added to the mix as well.

What will RFK jr say? Oh wait, I know, he was eating that glorious and wholesome McDonald's stuff in front of the cameras.

America is going to be so great again.
The next great division of the world will be between people who wish to live as creatures
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gerontocrat

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #83 on: December 15, 2024, 03:19:48 PM »
I like mine with CAFO meat and as many additives as possible, preferably some aspartame, MSG and glyphosate added to the mix as well.

What will RFK jr say? Oh wait, I know, he was eating that glorious and wholesome McDonald's stuff in front of the cameras.

America is going to be so great again.
Danger!!

AI is going to scrape this site.
AI cannot recognise sarcasm, let alone irony.

Result for Neven? To be bombarded with personalised ads for personalised burgers with double doses of his favourite additives.
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"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
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zenith

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #84 on: December 15, 2024, 04:01:07 PM »
Sad, your ignorance, jealousy  and  hatred,

rogan finally had someone on to explain the american empire to him, he didn't like it. rogan is so out of his depth it's sad, it's easier to gossip like a 14 yr. old and continually scream - canada is communist! 'muricans.

what's sad is that they don't really care that the united states empire fucks over the world for their benefit, they're just opposed to those tools being turned inward on americans.

Joe Rogan Experience #2237 - Mike Benz


here's a thought for you, they're setting up iran for an attack and trump has blamed iran for trying trying to kill him. now we have the drones over jersey and the iranian mothership. the trump inauguration could be very interesting as the entire pain in the ass crew will be assembled. what if "iranian" drones took out the whole lot? the empire would like that.
Where is reality? Can you show it to me? - Heinz von Foerster

kassy

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #85 on: December 15, 2024, 05:15:38 PM »
2. The working class got poorer under the Democrats , it will get richer under Trump, everyone will.

Last time he was president he gave away more money to billionaires which does not make the others richer. Since the budget is probably not coming down there will be more dollars which hurts more if you are on an hourly wage and you don´t get full time because that would add costs. Tariffs won´t help either.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

gerontocrat

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #86 on: December 15, 2024, 05:38:30 PM »
How badly will Trump_Presidency_2 hit science in the USA?

Will China be able to say "Thankyou very much for handing us leadership in science"?

The American Geophysical Union (AGU) had its annual meeting last week.
Gloom, doom and defiance on display.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/dec/15/scientists-climate-denial-trump
Quote
Anxious scientists brace for Trump’s climate denialism: ‘We have a target on our backs’

Experts express fear – and resilience – as they prepare for president-elect’s potential attacks on climate research

As the world’s largest gathering of Earth and space scientists swarmed a Washington venue last week, the packed halls have been permeated by an air of anxiety and even dread over a new Donald Trump presidency that might worsen what has been a bruising few years for science.

The annual American Geophysical Union (AGU) meeting drew a record 31,000 attendees this year for the unveiling of a slew of new research on everything from seismology to climate science to heliospheric physics, alongside a sprawling trade show and bouts of networking as scientists jostle to advance their work.

As grad students and grizzled researchers huddled around pin-boarded presentations in a cavernous exhibition space, however, one person dominated muttered conversations: Trump. The president-elect has called climate science a “giant scam” and when last in office sought to gut US scientific funding and sidelined or even punished scientists deemed unfriendly to the interests of the chemical and fossil fuel industries.

The prospect of an even more ideologically driven Trump administration slashing budgets and mass-firing federal staff has given America’s scientific community a sort of collective anxiety attack. “We all feel like we have a target on our backs,” said one National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration scientist, who added that agency staff are already seeking to “pivot” by replacing mentions of the climate crisis with more acceptable terms such as “air quality”.

“My god, it’s so depressing,” said another federal scientist about the incoming administration. A doctoral candidate, when asked about entering the workforce under Trump, simply puffed her cheeks and groaned. “If someone offered me a departmental position now, I’d jump,” said one Nasa researcher. “It’s hard, particularly for younger people. Hopefully we will survive it all.”

The challenges posed by the incoming administration barely featured in the official AGU program, which was more focused on highlighting new research – from a dire new warning about the melting Arctic to innovations that leverage artificial intelligence – and general boosterism of the value of science to our lives. But the leadership of the organization acknowledged there was a sense of unease.

“Some of the signals coming out right now make people nervous about what’s going to happen to their jobs, their livelihoods, let alone what their science is,” said Ben Zaitchik, a climate scientist who will be president-elect of the AGU next year. “You could say people are feeling beleaguered or besieged, but many are also motivated. At the same time, it’s a time of transition. So we just don’t know.”

Trump – through his alteration of hurricane maps with a Sharpie pen, staring with uncovered eyes at a solar eclipse and suggestion that disinfectant injections could cure Covid-19 – is seen by many here at the meeting as a catalyst of scientific contrarianism.

This has been underscored by the nomination of Robert F Kennedy, who holds an array of conspiracy theories about vaccines, wind farms and chemtrails, as the nominee for the US’s new health secretary, as well as Trump’s promise this week to cast aside environmental reviews for “any person or company investing ONE BILLION DOLLARS, OR MORE, in the United States of America”.

But scientists in the US face a broader crisis beyond the next president, amid a swirl of misinformation and declining trust in the profession among the American public. Overall trust in scientists has fallen by 10% since the pandemic, Pew polling has shown, with a growing partisan gap emerging in how science is viewed; nearly four in 10 Republicans now say they have little to no confidence in scientists acting in the public’s best interests.

“When we get that kind of polling data, it is concerning,” acknowledged Lisa Graumlich, a paleoclimatologist and the current AGU president. Gone, it seems, are the halcyon days of celebrity 19th-century scientists such as Charles Darwin and Alexander von Humboldt, or even the reception to the polio vaccine in the 1950s, which was greeted with ringing church bells, with its inventor, Jonas Salk, routinely being greeted with applause and handshakes when he was seen in public.

By contrast, Anthony Fauci, the face of the US response to the Covid pandemic, requires round-the-clock security protection due to ongoing death threats, even after his retirement. Climate scientists and meteorologists, too, have faced threats and harassment.

“The conspiracy theories are out there, the misinformation is there,” said Graumlich. “Social media engines and the algorithms can take a person that isn’t necessarily prone to a conspiracy mindset and have them end up in this rabbit hole of misinformation.”

Some researchers think scientists should adapt to this hyper-partisan environment by sticking to unadorned facts, rather than anything that could be seen as campaigning. “We have been come to be seen as just another partisan lobbying group,” said Ken Caldeira, a climate scientist.

“I want us to get back to a point where scientists are seen as the establishers of facts rather than arguing for policy. We need to get back to a situation where we have a shared set of facts.”

Others are determined to press the case for science to guide decisions, if not in the White House then with Congress, which previously thwarted major Trump-demanded cuts to the Environmental Protection Agency and Nasa’s Earth science work.

Jay Famiglietti, a hydrologist at Arizona State University who has come to AGU meetings since 1989, attended this year’s event to reveal terrifying findings about the loss of available freshwater around the world, due to the climate crisis and agricultural practices.

“People like me who are experts need to step up and say, ‘I think this should be done,’” said Famiglietti, who has tangled with a family member about Trump and has even taken to switching Fox News off from the TVs in his local gym.

a man poses for a photo
Climate denial a unifying theme of Trump’s cabinet picks, experts say
Read more
“I mean I am not going to chain myself to a wellhead but I’m going to make sure the right people in Congress, in Washington, know about it,” he said. “Some people might want to jump off a bridge if they think about the next few years but I don’t think we need to go into a shell or be overly careful. We need to choose our words well, know our audience, but I’m very much in support of full speed ahead.”

Even if Trump does follow Florida’s lead by deleting all mention of the climate crisis within the federal government, an oblivious world will continue to heat up regardless, bringing disasters and rising costs to Americans. Scientists say they will still be there when such truths become politically palatable again.

“We are sober about the future, but we’re not daunted,” said Graumlich. “The facts are still facts, science is still science. The fight is bigger than just one political cycle, I’ve been doing this for 40 years. We’re not backing down.”
"I wasn't expecting that quite so soon" kiwichick16
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Rodius

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #87 on: December 16, 2024, 12:27:13 AM »
So someone please remove it from the front page. Meanwhile, I have locked it.

I was hoping you'd keep it locked.

What Trump is going to do, is serve concentrated wealth. The system won't change, both fake and real wealth will continue to be accumulated and concentrated. Trump's successor will do the same.

There, I saved you 8 years of your life. You can do something else now.

Meanwhile, I will remove this thread from the front page, because I know people won't be doing something else.

1. Trump only has 4 years.

2. The working class got poorer under the Democrats , it will get richer under Trump, everyone will.

The working class gets poorer regardless of who is in power.... and since Trump hasnt even started his term, saying they will get richer is a mere fantasy at this point. Lets see what happens.

Last time is difficult to determine anything because of Covid..  this time he has no excuses for fucking it up.

Rodius

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #88 on: December 16, 2024, 12:32:20 AM »
2. The working class got poorer under the Democrats , it will get richer under Trump, everyone will.

Last time he was president he gave away more money to billionaires which does not make the others richer. Since the budget is probably not coming down there will be more dollars which hurts more if you are on an hourly wage and you don´t get full time because that would add costs. Tariffs won´t help either.

You forgot about the trickle down effect... you know how it works... the rich get the money and they get richer and... oh,, that isnt happening, maybe I am misunderstanding the trickle down effect?

Is it meant to be trickle up?
Yeah, that must be it because the richest people in the USA became incredibly more richer during the last Trump term.

The Walrus

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #89 on: December 16, 2024, 01:19:11 PM »
So someone please remove it from the front page. Meanwhile, I have locked it.

I was hoping you'd keep it locked.

What Trump is going to do, is serve concentrated wealth. The system won't change, both fake and real wealth will continue to be accumulated and concentrated. Trump's successor will do the same.

There, I saved you 8 years of your life. You can do something else now.

Meanwhile, I will remove this thread from the front page, because I know people won't be doing something else.

1. Trump only has 4 years.

2. The working class got poorer under the Democrats , it will get richer under Trump, everyone will.

The working class gets poorer regardless of who is in power.... and since Trump hasnt even started his term, saying they will get richer is a mere fantasy at this point. Lets see what happens.

Last time is difficult to determine anything because of Covid..  this time he has no excuses for fucking it up.

Largely true.  This is unrelated to the presidency.  Many factors have contributed, including the loss of manufacturing jobs and increased divorce rates.  High inflation tends to hurt the lower scale workers more, as they spend a higher percentage of their income on necessities and do not benefit from an asset increase.

LeftyLarry

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #90 on: December 16, 2024, 09:31:52 PM »
2. The working class got poorer under the Democrats , it will get richer under Trump, everyone will.

Last time he was president he gave away more money to billionaires which does not make the others richer. Since the budget is probably not coming down there will be more dollars which hurts more if you are on an hourly wage and you don´t get full time because that would add costs. Tariffs won´t help either.

Listen, having a decent amount of money myself, after struggling to earn it a good portion of my life, allow me to say, the RICH get richer under Democrats and Republicans, under Leftwing and Rightwing governments, compound interest is Man's best friend, diversification, the 2nd best friend, not the dog. Money makes more money.

Here's the difference though, in the U.S. the top 10% often changes, people are moving up into the top 10% and falling out of it continuously, everyone gets a chance, however, it is much, much easier to get up there under the Republicans because less regulation, more favorable interest rates and a healthier business climate, creates investment and young people getting a chance to own a home and improve themselves.

As i always say, the Right keeps making the PIE larger and yes, the RICH get huge slices but everyone gets a decent slice to eat as that pie keeps getting bigger every year.
Under the Left, the pie keeps shrinking but that's OK because everyone "supposedly" gets the same , equal portion, which of course eventually becomes mere crumbs.

Covid came along and hurt Trump at the end but here are some inconvenient truths :

https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/articles/incomes-hit-record-high-poverty-reached-record-low-2019/





Rodius

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #91 on: December 17, 2024, 01:19:33 AM »

Largely true.  This is unrelated to the presidency.  Many factors have contributed, including the loss of manufacturing jobs and increased divorce rates.  High inflation tends to hurt the lower scale workers more, as they spend a higher percentage of their income on necessities and do not benefit from an asset increase.

Manufacturing left the US because of globalization that was led by the US.
The US got cheaper products, the capitalists made bigger profits, and the process was led by both political parties. The loss of manufacturing in the US is a self inflicted wound and now the money has been made the US now leads the world into isolationism which, ironically, is also a self inflicted wound.

If we are going to pretend that capitalism is the answer then that answer includes all people everywhere earning about the same income and the economies are interlinked. Because when that doesnt happen, the rich paying countries will always lose to the poor paying countries because capitalism is attempting to level the playing field in regards to manufacturing.

Which is not good for the US.

So, in a way, isolationism appears to be the logical answer for the richer countries. It isnt, but it looks like the answer.

Not sure why divorce rates are part of the problem.
What matters more is women entering the workforce... now that plays a huge part in the situation today because when women entered the workforce it allowed capitalists to keep incomes down and increase their profits.

And today, the economy is geared for as many men and women as possible to work to keep incomes down. Sadly, the workforce appears to be mostly working and incomes cant be forced down with women anymore.... but to fix that problem all you need to do is find more people. Immigration is the answer.

Capitalism only survives because of never ending growth. Without it, the system fails.
If population growth isnt doing the job then increased efficiency can do it for a while. Th introduction of AI and automation will keep the ball rolling for a while in the regard.

Either way, incomes stay down, isolationism will probably become more common in rich countries, the rich will get richer, and it keeps going until the methods of growth fail of the environment collapses to make a mockery of everything we have done.

Until then, wealth will continue to concentrate at the top, the working classes will keep their heads just above water because a hungry population kills the rich ones, and the wheel will spin taking us nowhere.

The Walrus

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #92 on: December 17, 2024, 02:39:19 PM »

Largely true.  This is unrelated to the presidency.  Many factors have contributed, including the loss of manufacturing jobs and increased divorce rates.  High inflation tends to hurt the lower scale workers more, as they spend a higher percentage of their income on necessities and do not benefit from an asset increase.

Manufacturing left the US because of globalization that was led by the US.
The US got cheaper products, the capitalists made bigger profits, and the process was led by both political parties. The loss of manufacturing in the US is a self inflicted wound and now the money has been made the US now leads the world into isolationism which, ironically, is also a self inflicted wound.

If we are going to pretend that capitalism is the answer then that answer includes all people everywhere earning about the same income and the economies are interlinked. Because when that doesnt happen, the rich paying countries will always lose to the poor paying countries because capitalism is attempting to level the playing field in regards to manufacturing.

Which is not good for the US.

So, in a way, isolationism appears to be the logical answer for the richer countries. It isnt, but it looks like the answer.

Not sure why divorce rates are part of the problem.
What matters more is women entering the workforce... now that plays a huge part in the situation today because when women entered the workforce it allowed capitalists to keep incomes down and increase their profits.

And today, the economy is geared for as many men and women as possible to work to keep incomes down. Sadly, the workforce appears to be mostly working and incomes cant be forced down with women anymore.... but to fix that problem all you need to do is find more people. Immigration is the answer.

Capitalism only survives because of never ending growth. Without it, the system fails.
If population growth isnt doing the job then increased efficiency can do it for a while. Th introduction of AI and automation will keep the ball rolling for a while in the regard.

Either way, incomes stay down, isolationism will probably become more common in rich countries, the rich will get richer, and it keeps going until the methods of growth fail of the environment collapses to make a mockery of everything we have done.

Until then, wealth will continue to concentrate at the top, the working classes will keep their heads just above water because a hungry population kills the rich ones, and the wheel will spin taking us nowhere.

From what I have read, divorce is both a cause and effect.  Money issues can lead to divorce, which leads to more money issues.  The top of the ladder has a significantly lower divorce rate than the bottom. 

Isolationism has changed over time.  During the 19th century, isolationism allowed the U.S. to prosper, as it was removed from foreign entanglements.  The U.S. was self-sufficient, which enabled the country to succeed where smaller countries could not.  As the U.S. (and other wealthy nations) prospered, goods became more expensive.  Globalization lowered the price of many goods, as poorer nations good manufacture them more cheaply.  This had the added benefit of increasing the wealth of those countries.  During the 20th century, manufacturing moved progressively to Japan, Taiwan, Korea, China, Vietnam, towards the cheapest workforce. 

The wealth does concentrate at the top, but the top changes constantly.  Globalization has increased upward (and downward) mobility as it has allowed new ideas and products to prosper.  While some, like Warren Buffett, Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg came from money, others, like Jeff Bezos, Michael Bloomberg and Steve Jobs did not.  This is diminished in poorer countries, as wealthy landowners have greater control. 

While the push to return manufacture jobs within the borders has large political appeal, it has low economic attraction.  High-paying manufacturing jobs is an oxymoron in wealthy countries, but still exists in poorer countries, where workers can make more money than farming. 

Yes, capitalism is based on never ending growth.  However, it also leads to ever increasing efficiency.  This has allowed (for better or for worse) larger populations to exist on smaller pieces of land, which nature would not have allowed.

zenith

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #93 on: December 17, 2024, 06:21:34 PM »
Yes, capitalism is based on never ending growth.  However, it also leads to ever increasing efficiency. 

... and worker efficiency is way up but wages aren't, it all goes to the top as profits for shareholders.

when every institution in nearly every country in the "collective west", the closest allies of the hegemon, are rotten to the core it causes chaos. enter the trumps of the world, the old political left has been destroyed and replaced by corporatism and identity politics so the irony is that people are turning to the right out of desperation but it will only deliver the more of the problem on steroids.

trump will run into the empire internally at every turn and all his nationalist rhetoric will be out the window. it was funny listening to mike benz explain how vast and varied the american empire is to rogan and rogan says "it sounds like trump is going to run into some headwinds". gee, ya think joe?
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The Walrus

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #94 on: December 17, 2024, 07:26:38 PM »
Yes, capitalism is based on never ending growth.  However, it also leads to ever increasing efficiency. 

... and worker efficiency is way up but wages aren't, it all goes to the top as profits for shareholders.

when every institution in nearly every country in the "collective west", the closest allies of the hegemon, are rotten to the core it causes chaos. enter the trumps of the world, the old political left has been destroyed and replaced by corporatism and identity politics so the irony is that people are turning to the right out of desperation but it will only deliver the more of the problem on steroids.

trump will run into the empire internally at every turn and all his nationalist rhetoric will be out the window. it was funny listening to mike benz explain how vast and varied the american empire is to rogan and rogan says "it sounds like trump is going to run into some headwinds". gee, ya think joe?

Don't know about other western nations, but wages have grown about 5% in the U.S., compared to inflation hovering around 3%.  That is down slightly from the ~5.5% wage growth in 2023, when inflation was running higher at 4.5%.

gerontocrat

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #95 on: December 17, 2024, 08:05:54 PM »
At last something about what may really happen during Trump_2. I've heard all the blah blah a million times already.

Below is a report from Reuters on recommendations from Trump's transition team on policies and actions on the US auto sector (and batteries). They seem a good fit with Trump's statements on the campaign trail.

There is a good chance that much of this will become reality? If yes, the US auto industry will be heading in the opposite direction to and increasingly isolated from much of the rest of the world.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/trump-transition-team-plans-sweeping-rollback-biden-ev-emissions-policies-2024-12-16/
Quote
Exclusive: Trump transition team to roll back Biden EV, emissions policies
By Jarrett Renshaw and Chris Kirkham
December 16, 20248:51 PM GMTUpdated a day ago

Summary

- Trump plans to cut EV support, impose tariffs on battery materials
- Proposals aim to boost U.S. production, redirect funds to national defense
= Transition team suggests rolling back emissions standards, blocking California's stricter rules

Dec 16 (Reuters) - Incoming U.S. President Donald Trump’s transition team is recommending sweeping changes to cut off support for electric vehicles and charging stations and to strengthen measures blocking cars, components and battery materials from China, according to a document seen by Reuters.

The recommendations, which have not been previously reported, come as the U.S. electric-vehicle transition stalls and China’s heavily subsidized EV industry continues to surge, in part because of its superior battery supply chain. On the campaign trail, Trump vowed to ease regulations on fossil-fuel cars and roll back what he called President Joe Biden’s EV mandate.

The transition team also recommends imposing tariffs on all battery materials globally, a bid to boost U.S. production, and then negotiating individual exemptions with allies, the document shows.

Taken together, the recommendations are a stark departure from Biden administration policy, which sought to balance encouraging a domestic battery supply chain, separate from China, with a rapid EV transition. The transition-team plan would redirect money now flowing to building charging stations and making EVs affordable into national-defense priorities, including securing China-free supplies of batteries and the critical minerals to build them.

The proposals came from a Trump transition team charged with crafting a strategy for swift implementation of new automotive policies. The team also calls for eliminating the Biden administration’s $7,500 tax credit for consumer EV purchases, a plan that Reuters first reported last month. The policies could strike a blow to U.S. EV sales and production at a time when many legacy automakers, including General Motors (GM.N), opens new tab and Hyundai (005380.KS), opens new tab, have recently introduced a wider array of electric offerings to the U.S. market.
Cutting government EV support could also hurt sales of Elon Musk’s Tesla, the dominant U.S. EV seller. But Musk, who spent more than a quarter-billion dollars helping to elect Trump, has said that losing subsidies would hurt rivals more than Tesla.

The transition team calls for clawing back whatever funds remain from Biden’s $7.5 billion plan to build charging stations and shifting the money to battery-minerals processing and the "national defense supply chain and critical infrastructure.”

While batteries, minerals and other EV components are “critical to defense production,” electric vehicles “and charging stations are not,” the document says.

The Defense Department in recent years has highlighted U.S. strategic vulnerabilities because of China’s dominance of the mining and refining of critical minerals, including graphite and lithium needed for batteries, and rare-earth metals used in both EV motors and military aircraft.

A 2021 government report said the U.S. military faces “escalating power requirements” for weapons and communication equipment, among other technologies. “Assured sources of critical minerals and materials” are “critical to U.S. national security,” the report found.

Trump transition spokeswoman Karoline Leavitt said voters gave Trump a mandate to deliver on campaign promises, including stopping government attacks on gas-powered cars.
"When he takes office, President Trump will support the auto industry, allowing space for both gas-powered cars and electric vehicles," Leavitt said in a statement.

ALLOWING MORE TAILPIPE POLLUTION
Automakers globally have been shifting toward electric vehicles in part to comply with stricter government limits on climate-damaging tailpipe pollution.
But the transition team recommendations would allow automakers to produce more gas-powered vehicles by rolling back emissions and fuel-economy standards championed by the Biden administration. The transition team proposes shifting those regulations back to 2019 levels, which would allow an average of about 25% more emissions per vehicle mile than the current 2025 limits and average fuel economy to be about 15% lower.

The proposal also recommends blocking California from setting its own, stricter vehicle-emissions standards, which more than a dozen other states have adopted. Trump barred California from setting tougher requirements during his first term, a policy that Biden reversed.
California has asked the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency for another waiver to incorporate a stronger set of requirements beginning in 2026, which would eventually require all vehicles to be electric, plug-in hybrid or hydrogen-powered by 2035. The Biden administration’s EPA has not approved California’s request.

Many of the transition-team proposals appear aimed at encouraging domestic battery production, primarily for defense-related interests. Others appear aimed at protecting automakers, even those producing EVs, in the United States.

The proposals include:
– Instituting tariffs on “EV supply chain” imports including batteries, critical minerals and charging components. The proposal viewed by Reuters said the administration should use Section 232 tariffs, which target national security threats, to limit imports of such products.
The Biden administration recently increased tariffs on Chinese imports of several mentioned in the Trump-transition document, including lithium-ion batteries, graphite and “permanent magnets” used in EV motors and military applications. Those tariffs were issued on economic rather than security grounds.

– Waiving environmental reviews to speed up “federally funded EV infrastructure projects,” including battery recycling and production, charging stations and critical mineral manufacturing.

– Expanding export restrictions on EV battery technology to adversarial nations.

– Providing support for exports of U.S.-made EV batteries through the Export-Import Bank of the United States.

– Using tariffs as a “negotiating tool” to open foreign markets to U.S. auto exports, including EVs.

– Eliminating requirements that federal agencies purchase EVs. A Biden policy requires all federal acquisitions of cars and smaller trucks to be zero-emission vehicles by the end of 2027.

– Ending DOD programs aimed at purchasing or developing electric military vehicles.
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zenith

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #96 on: December 17, 2024, 08:44:02 PM »
At last something about what may really happen during Trump_2. I've heard all the blah blah a million times already.

but your blah, blah, blah about your techno-utopian issues is brand new of course. people are living in tents coast to coast, there's the new techno-utopia. they barely use any energy at all.
Where is reality? Can you show it to me? - Heinz von Foerster

zenith

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #97 on: December 17, 2024, 08:52:23 PM »
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/trump-transition-team-plans-sweeping-rollback-biden-ev-emissions-policies-2024-12-16/

i bet musk, the largest welfare recipient in history, loves this plan. he could start making $100k ev station wagons so workers have a place to live.
Where is reality? Can you show it to me? - Heinz von Foerster

LeftyLarry

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #98 on: December 17, 2024, 09:23:08 PM »
So someone please remove it from the front page. Meanwhile, I have locked it.

I was hoping you'd keep it locked.

What Trump is going to do, is serve concentrated wealth. The system won't change, both fake and real wealth will continue to be accumulated and concentrated. Trump's successor will do the same.

There, I saved you 8 years of your life. You can do something else now.

Meanwhile, I will remove this thread from the front page, because I know people won't be doing something else.

God, you couldn’t be any further from the truth, it’s exactly the opposite, you have no clue .

Trump’s biggest haters are the wealthy ,  business as usual Republicans because he doesn’t serve their wealth.
Why  do you think Bush,  Cheney , Romney , the  Mitch O’Connell crowd and the other Chamber of commerce, cheap labor Rinos that Trump “ primaried” and ran out of Congress hate him so much?
Shouldn’t he be their idol if what you say is correct?
You have it 100% wrong.
Trump is for America, the U.S. of A , he’s about creating jobs and wealth and getting the corruption and overspending out of the government.
He’s about stopping wars through strength, not weakness, he kept PUTIN and Iran strapped for cash and then he didn’t have to go for war, it started in Israel and Ukraine after  he left and the weak Biden released billions to both of them in cash and the ability to sell their energy.
Trump lost a half a billion dollars in net worth by being President, the hideous left attacked all his businesses and he risk going to prison, for doing nothing that anyone in the U.S. ever goes to prison for and yet, he came back, he keeps trying to MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN,


LeftyLarry

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Re: 2025 to 2028 Trump Presidency 2
« Reply #99 on: December 17, 2024, 10:24:39 PM »
countless think tanks/foundations/ngo.

trump thinks it's a country, it's $36 trillion in debt...

And that’s for a country who has a 28 trillion dollar gross national product , that like a family who  makes $200,000/ year and has a $300,000 mortgage, it’s not fun but it’s doable.
The problem isn’t the debt, the problem is the debt will continue to increase unless we stop spending and wasting so much money .
We can:
Cut down size of government and save money
Cut down waste in military spending
Force Fair trade practices with trading partners or stop trading with them .
Cut back on Medicare and Medicaid which is out of control , old people who have nothing to do, go to the dermatologist every month to have some innocuous mole looked at or removed , unbelievable amounts of needless stress tests, EKG’s etc.etc  for healthy people who don’t need them , checking their cholesterol every 3-4 months , just too many people saying, “ it doesn’t cost me anything or very little, so I go.”
Cut down foreign assistance except where there is a direct tangible benefit .

Here is one Congressmen’s list of wasteful programs, I have seen dozens of theirs with even worse wasteful spending.

https://posey.house.gov/wasteful-spending/