Peace, peace, peace... please

[sidd]

Re:  the West has made great strides in reducing pollution

Yes. They exported it. As Summers famously remarked, "Africa is underpolluted"

sidd

[etienne]

We have a cease fire in Lebanon. Let's hope it holds.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/nov/26/joe-biden-announces-ceasefire-deal-to-end-fighting-between-israel-and-hezbollah

It is supposed to be for 60 days, but could be definitive.

What is worrying is that the language used isn't really de-escalating, at least on the Israeli side. Looks like the other side didn't say much.

[KiwiGriff]

[The Walrus]

We have a cease fire in Lebanon. Let's hope it holds.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/nov/26/joe-biden-announces-ceasefire-deal-to-end-fighting-between-israel-and-hezbollah

It is supposed to be for 60 days, but could be definitive.

What is worrying is that the language used isn't really de-escalating, at least on the Israeli side. Looks like the other side didn't say much.

It’s a start.

[be cause]

looks less likely to be a ceasefire here on ASIF . Seems this page has just become a new place to squabble .

[Neven]

Because there isn't a real discussion on how to get peace, except perhaps on an individual level (etienne's sensible list). When it comes to a collective understanding, we end up with clichés like 'it has always been thus', 'it's human nature', 'it's not in my name, I just happen to live here', 'Putin and Trump are the reason there is war'.

If your starting point is that war is almost always a racket for minorities on both sides of a conflict, who each manipulate their majority to go to war, you may get somewhere useful. But if you then follow this train of thought to its logical conclusion, you inevitably end up critiquing and perhaps even opposing elements on your side, which means you are an appeaser or even a traitor. Few people want to go there.

And so you get a War thread where people get angry if you talk about US neocons or corrupt West Ukrainian officials and Neonazis. Because the focus must be on the other side, which is Putin, and well, millions have to die for Ukraine's right to be a NATO member. Which is the superficial narrative.

And so, basically, this thread has reached its end, unless people want to continue to discuss what should be done on a collective level. In other words, what should we in the West do collectively to prevent war? Better late than never.

[Rascal Dog]

Jason Box has a planetary peace plan...
It is absurd, but contains the right idea. Bitcoin, seriously? To demonetize the warmongers with a new decentralized currency? Hm, yeah, but really?

Non monetary states are not threatened by bitcoin. Think North Korea.

[etienne]

And so, basically, this thread has reached its end, unless people want to continue to discuss what should be done on a collective level. In other words, what should we in the West do collectively to prevent war? Better late than never.

Neven, we are individuals, so the only thing we can do collectively is individual actions, and if more people do it (refusing to go to the army https://www.refuser.org/, reducing fossil fuel and drugs consumption, not justifying war, boycotting companies controlled by warmongers, respecting and creating links with the other side, contacting the politicians...), we will have a huge collective impact.

you seem to have clear ideas of what you would want to do. So talk about it.

I can't agree that the problems are the others, or that I am the problem, but I agree that :

• I only can change myself
• I have to start first if I want the others to follow me.

Like I already said, I believe that protests are more a team building experience for peace, and a way to contact new people, than an objective. Maybe is is also a KPI. But it shouldn't be more than the part of the iceberg that's above the sea level.

[The Walrus]

Socrates once said, “All wars are fought for money.”  Perhaps we should be focusing our efforts on bringing people out of poverty.  This won’t stop greed, but may make headways.

[Bruce Steele]

I used to do fish politics. Most choices either favor money considerations or biological decisions and rarely favored both. Fish politics is finding some middle ground where fishermen can continue to fish while biological concerns maintain healthy stocks , although usually reduced from virgin stock levels.
 Because there are far more meetings to attend than any self funded fisherman can afford to travel to I  tried to attend those meetings where I thought I could help the sea urchins. So I was trying to represent the sea urchins biological interests. There were always plenty of people representing the interests of money.
 If this peace peace or war, or birth control verses none,  or disease suppression verses natural selection, or food verses famine were the only options for the control of human numbers then from the perspective of All other life forms threaten by humans how would you proceed. If you could think of some other values than those that always favor humans and money what would be the management decisions that would assure all wild stocks of plants and animals some representation, some value, and some assurance that their numbers are maintained ?
And if the answer is peace, free breeding, high tech human disease controls, and fossil fuel derived food production then you are simply favoring money interests under the cover of righteousness.
Because this path will also destroy human existence , but there will be a profit in it.

[zenith]

the least popular reality.

"On this episode, Nate is joined by systems ecologist William E. Rees. Professor Rees outlines why most of the challenges facing humanity and the biosphere have a common origin - ecological overshoot. Bill also unpacks “the ecological footprint” - a concept that he co-created, that measures the actual resources used by a given population. Bill also describes his experience as a leading thinker in public policy and planning based on ecological conditions for sustainable socioeconomic development, and the challenges he’s faced working in a system which (so far) rejects such premises. Is it possible for a different way of measuring the system to set different goals of what it means to be successful as a society?"

William E. Rees: "The Fundamental Issue - Overshoot" | The Great Simplification

[etienne]

And if the answer is peace, free breeding, high tech human disease controls, and fossil fuel derived food production then you are simply favoring money interests under the cover of righteousness.
Because this path will also destroy human existence , but there will be a profit in it.

Bruce, I don't really get why you associate peace with free breeding and nature destruction. The military has a huge carbon footprint :
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/warfares-climate-emissions-are-huge-but-uncounted/

A 2022 report by the Conflict and Environment Observatory suggested that militaries could account for around 5.5 percent of global greenhouse gas emissions — but that could be an underestimate.

And a 2022 report was written before the start of the Ukraine and the Gaza war.

Mine fields are not better for humans than for animals.

There were pictures of sunflowers during the winter in Ukraine that were full of seeds because no bird came to eat it.

If we want to control climate change, I believe that we need to degrowth, and I can't imagine how this is possible with a war.  In a war context, the military industry has unlimited credits. You just replace the scrap people buy on Temu with ammunition. I can't imagine that the impact on climate is better. Since people become poor in a war context, the pressure on nature would become even bigger.
War also includes many rapes, which means babies that will probably be traumatized, not the best start for a world where people should respect one another.  https://www.standspeakriseup.lu/

[Bruce Steele]

We either control human population or we don’t. I am just saying there are only the time tested ways to do so. Collectively we haven’t voluntarily limited our reproduction. We haven’t found out how to feed ourselves without fossil fuels, we try as hard as we can to suppress disease and vectors. None of the means to control our population have been adopted and so I refuse to exempt war.
 I also believe even the worst war torn environs would return to nature if our numbers were reduced to low numbers preventing human rehabitation. Check out Chernobyl or Hanford
 So from the perspective of wildlife I believe you are simply protecting humans and human interests.

I think what Zenith says about using a different set of values/ goals to determine what constitutes
a successful society/ civilization is more in tune with what I propose.  That all life is considered, not just human omnipotence .

And to be blunt you are underestimating the power of war to limit our numbers.
 

[zenith]

humans loathe limitations, we're constantly using our brain power to transcend them in every way imaginable. indeed, all species attempt to spread as far and wide as possible but they hit limits, usually environmental, that keep them in an ecological niche. war is a fight over resources in the beginning and the end, dress it up however you want.

if you've never seen this documentary it's incredible, the complete savagery in the quest to not only survive but dominate.

Brothers In Blood The Lions Of Sabi Sand 2015


@7:34 - as he's announcing the invasion of iraq following the collapse of the soviet union...

"we have before us the opportunity to forge for ourselves and for future generations a new world order. a world where the rule of law, not the law of the jungle, governs the conduct of nations. when we are successful, and we will be, we have a real chance at this new world order..."

President George H.W. Bush Announces Persion Gulf War 1-16-91


it's the story of the lion and the unicorn.

unipolar world order, one world trade center, non-binary sexuality, transhumanism and the singularity.

edit - other people have other ideas and being dominated isn't part of their agenda.

[Paddy]

Because there isn't a real discussion on how to get peace, except perhaps on an individual level (etienne's sensible list). When it comes to a collective understanding, we end up with clichés like 'it has always been thus', 'it's human nature', 'it's not in my name, I just happen to live here', 'Putin and Trump are the reason there is war'.

We have to recognise that some goals, such as world peace, have never been achieved in the past and keep our expectations reasonable, such as reducing the scope and harm of war.  As for a broader reason of “Why war” and “how not to war”, a big part of it has to be countering the philosophical arguments of the kind of nationalist extremists who argue for invading other countries to “liberate” places that were historically at some point ruled from the same place that they are and/or contain people of some vague ethnolinguistic kinship. This kind of nationalist extremism was the fundamental issue with national socialism, after all; and its also the fundamental problem with Russky Mir, and its proponents such as the Neo-Nazi Dugin.

Really, we have to recognise that what makes people decent is not nation, but such simple things as “is this person honest? Are they generous and forgiving? Do they volunteer to help others?” Etc. And to recognise that we all share our nations both with people who are decent and who aren’t, and that to go to war leaves some of the worst of people free to indulge the worst angels of their natures, even when we don’t release rapists and murderers from prison to go rape and murder in a country being invaded, and when we don’t set up systematic torture facilities for Nazis to go carve swastikas into the skins of captives.

[etienne]

And to be blunt you are underestimating the power of war to limit our numbers.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/population?time=1821..latest&country=~OWID_EUR

Well, below a graph of the european population since 1760.
There have been many wars during these years. Napoleon, 1870, WW1, WW2...

War doesn't change the growth paradigm. Peace limited population growth. Sometimes around the end of the cold war.

Added : this graph covers a time of colonization with many European people moving abroad all over the world.

[zenith]

newsflash - neither europe nor the united states are the world.

[zenith]

the west went all in with ukraine as they wanted to strip ukraine of their wealth and collapse russia so they could strip it bare too but it failed. now it's looking existential for europe in particular. they could have done business but they got greedy and tried to dominate all of eurasia and lost.

"making it (the eu) work isn't easy and europe has made some absolutely fundamental mistakes in the last 20 years in particular. basically, in my view the most fundamental mistake, ironically, is that it put the capitol of europe and the capitol of nato in the same city and it completely lost it's sense of european perspective, it became really a vassal of the united states. and my country is a very peculiar country, it has delusional aspirations of global hegemony, it's completely ignorant geographically, it's not operating in europe's interests and europe is no longer operating in europe's interest..."

Can Europe Return to Reason & Reverse Its Decline Jeffrey Sachs, Alexander Mercouris & Glenn Diesen


“Too rich to be relevant to the world's poor, [Europe] attracts immigration but cannot encourage imitation. Too passive regarding international security. Too self-satisfied, it acts as if its central political goal is to become the worlds most comfortable retirement home. Too set in its ways, it fears multicultural diversity”
― Zbigniew Brzezinski, The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and its Geostrategic Imperatives (1997)

the wars in the middle east, libya and now ukraine have certainly stimulated immigration into europe. how's that going?

[etienne]

the wars in the middle east, libya and now ukraine have certainly stimulated immigration into europe. how's that going?

Yes, and as you can see on the graph, it didn't increase European population.
Ukraine, Belarus, and part of Russia are in Europe. An Ukrainian can't emigrate in Europe, just like a Canadian can't emigrate in America.

[etienne]

newsflash - neither europe nor the united states are the world.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/population?time=1918..latest&country=~VNM
If you check Vietnam, you couldn't imagine that there was a war.

[zenith]

the wars in the middle east, libya and now ukraine have certainly stimulated immigration into europe. how's that going?

Yes, and as you can see on the graph, it didn't increase European population.
Ukraine, Belarus, and part of Russia are in Europe. An Ukrainian can't emigrate in Europe, just like a Canadian can't emigrate in America.

many say that europe ends at the ural mountains, georgians consider themselves europeans. it's ironic that you start a thread calling for peace but then betray your own completely euro-centric vision of the world. you obviously feel threatened and what you really want is peace for your own little patch. that's not going to happen for all sorts of reasons, not least of which is that the world order is being turned on it's head.

europe has lots of ukrainian refugees these days unless you don't count poland et al european either.

there are plenty canadians living in the unted states and plenty of americans living in canada. i have no idea what you're talking about.

[etienne]

You won't find out when the atomic bombs exploded on Nagasaki and Hiroshima on a population graph.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/population?time=1918..latest&country=~JPN

[etienne]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe

Europe and America are continents. The United States of America are a country, but the European Union not.There are many other organizations (ECHR, EFTA...), each having a different geographical radius.

[zenith]

you can keep posting all the broad sweeping graphs you want but if you focused in you'd see that millions died the wars. what you're doing is whitewashing and it's disgusting actually.

[zenith]

try this one if your point is ecological overshoot.

https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/

[Rodius]

And so, basically, this thread has reached its end, unless people want to continue to discuss what should be done on a collective level. In other words, what should we in the West do collectively to prevent war? Better late than never.

Neven, we are individuals, so the only thing we can do collectively is individual actions, and if more people do it (refusing to go to the army https://www.refuser.org/, reducing fossil fuel and drugs consumption, not justifying war, boycotting companies controlled by warmongers, respecting and creating links with the other side, contacting the politicians...), we will have a huge collective impact.

you seem to have clear ideas of what you would want to do. So talk about it.

I can't agree that the problems are the others, or that I am the problem, but I agree that :

• I only can change myself
• I have to start first if I want the others to follow me.

Like I already said, I believe that protests are more a team building experience for peace, and a way to contact new people, than an objective. Maybe is is also a KPI. But it shouldn't be more than the part of the iceberg that's above the sea level.

I dont think there is much we can collectively do to prevent anything anymore.

The horse has bolted and is long gone.
Individuals, and collective action is just yelling for the horse that doesnt hear you so it wont change its direction.

Collective solutions is a pipe dream.

And I am an optimist lol.

I remember talking to my mother about 15 years ago when she asked me about the future and my answer reflects my thinking today... The best we can do is reduce the damage that is coming, but there is no chance we will change enough to prevent a complete collapse of modern society. Basically, we are doomed and all we can do is reduce the damage and lengthen the time between now and the collapse.

Given this is the situation and we are STILL fighting to keep business as usual with tweaks going, the logical solution isnt to do anything about it but to prepare for the outcome.

The tricky part is when you have kids (mine are 16 and 11) is to prep them for a world of slow decline so learning a job still matters but also have the skills to grow food, hunt, and stay fit if running and bike riding is required to escape. And learning to sail.

There is no point hoping for a good outcome.
Prepping is the only thing we can do.

And even though I focused on personal prepping, I also mean on a country level.

Things like prepping crops for different local climates, water management, reducing desertification (the green wall in Africa, for example), moving cities further inland, removing reliance on fossil fuels in as many plaecs as possible, stuff like that.

If I was to get active for large scale activism, that would be what I focus on. Nobody is listening to prevent and hardly anyone is prepared to do what is required to combat it.

[etienne]

Rodius, basically I think like you, originally because of climate change, and nowadays because of the way we walk toward war.
But I also believe that war is a self fulfilling prophecy, and that the first thing to do to avoid it is to keep hope alive that in might be avoided.
I'm somehow similar and opposite to Netanyahu, he bombed Lebanon up to the last minute before cease fire, and I will hope for peace until the last minute before war starts, I might even not believe it directly when I hear it started.

[Rodius]

Rodius, basically I think like you, originally because of climate change, and nowadays because of the way we walk toward war.
But I also believe that war is a self fulfilling prophecy, and that the first thing to do to avoid it is to keep hope alive that in might be avoided.
I'm somehow similar and opposite to Netanyahu, he bombed Lebanon up to the last minute before cease fire, and I will hope for peace until the last minute before war starts, I might even not believe it directly when I hear it started.

We are walking into bigger wars because those in power in the West want the resources the West craves for.

And the reason we want more is because our society ti sick with greed and a desire for more stuff, newer stuff, better stuff.

This is not sleep walking, it is manipulation of the masses to buy stuff that keeps people in power who also want more because they are, literally, insane for power and are sociopaths and narcists.

To me, the ONLY way we can stop them is to stop buying stuff. Just dont buy anything beyond the bare basics.
Less buying means less requirement to work, more time for important things like living a life... but we wont do that.

We are slaves who believe the fairy tales we are told. There is no stopping it until the illusion is broken with a collapse. There is no stopping it until then.

We are talk, can can imagine ways to prevent is and belive incremental changes will do the job, but lets be serious here.... there is no chance enough will be done to stop the planetary collapse and sweet fuck all we can do to stop the pending wars between the West and the Rest Who Have Resources We Want For "Free".

I am not a doomer, I am simply stating what is almost certainly going to happen. And if this is the case, the most sensible thing to do is forget about stopping it and start prepping.

Peace wont happen because we cant stop buying stuff we dont need... it is complete insanity and expecting the insane to do the right thing while in a delusional state is crazy.

Forget peace, forget climate adaption, we are screwed.

If anyone here can show me any evidence to the contrary, please share it. I am always open to changing my mind when enough evidence is presented... but it will need to be more the increment and hopeful wishful thinking.

People are predictable. And one of those things is people dont change behavior until it personally affects them in a significant manner. The West hasnt had that experience yet.

[Paddy]

One piece of contrary evidence to the Ukraine war being about the West being “hungry” for resources: it actually restricts our access to resources, due to the sanctions on Russian goods.  And any future path that offers increased access to resources for the West seems extremely tenuous.

It has, of course, been profitable to rival sellers of resources, and sellers of arms. But that’s another issue.

For Ukraine and Russia themselves, the war may partly be about resources, as the land being fought over now is in Ukraine’s most resource-rich region; although even here, the benefit for Russia might not be so much gaining more resources as eliminating a potential rival seller of them, and also the benefit of having a land bridge to the Crimea. The main issue for both countries however remains future security in the context of a total loss of trust; which is partly why Russian demands that Ukraine demilitarise and commit never to joining NATO are so problematic.  Russia doesn’t want a well-armed NATO member on its border, and Ukraine doesn’t want to be anything but a well-armed NATO member for fear of being invaded a third time.  Ukraine obviously also doesn’t want to legitimise Russia’s land thefts, and vice versa in the rather smaller case of the Kursk region.

Overall, resources aren’t the main issue here.

[Florifulgurator]

(...)
Forget peace, forget climate adaption, we are screwed.

If anyone here can show me any evidence to the contrary, please share it. I am always open to changing my mind when enough evidence is presented... but it will need to be more the increment and hopeful wishful thinking.

(...)

Here is some good news for you from Europe:
Just a few years ago, cheap Russian pipeline gas was forever.
That is, not just quite some emissions (incl. methane) were baked into the European energy system,
but also no economical incentive to change that.
The European dependence on cheap Russian gas was a major hindrance for decarbonisation that worried me for decades. No longer!
Meanwhile, end of this year the last fossil gas addicts, Austria, Slovakia and Hungary will be cut off from their dealer.

Short-term of course Trump will happily deal us more LNG, which however is way more expensive.
Suddenly millions of fossil fools (I know some) no longer want a new gas home heating system (except a few electrophobic Barvarians (I know some) who have pipe dreams of hydrogen). While hydrogen will not warm our European behinds for physical-economical reasons, it is the way forward for chemical and steel industry. If Germany is too calcified to kick-start a green hydrogen industry, then China will do, as always in recent industrial history.

It is of course sad that it needs war and destruction to kick the Late Homo S Sapiens into doing some 20th century homework - but well, what to expect? While it is ridiculous that Putin achieved more than Greta (and Greta meanwhile grew up to become ridiculous herself) it is still the first happy climate news in this century!

[be cause]

historically war leads to more births than deaths , from the baby boom after WW2 to the war wracked / wrecked countries of the present . Rape is a lot more available than contraceptives and saying no to an army wanting into your knickers is not wise anywhere from Ukraine to Sudan . Is there a scarcity of children in Yemen or Gaza ? ( of course , Israel is working hard to achieve this goal) .

[kassy]

historically war leads to more births than deaths , from the baby boom after WW2 to the war wracked / wrecked countries of the present

Probably only in modern times where we can keep a lot more people alive while civilians are less of a target and armies do not live of the field. It wasn´t really true for those who opposed Ghenghis Khan or in many of the earlier wars in Europe.

With the arrival of the nation state and early industrialization population became more valuable because you need them for soldiers and to outproduce the enemy but that is all recent.

[etienne]

Tomorrow is buy nothing day, good night.

[kassy]

Every day should be buy nothing day.

[uniquorn]

Every day should be buy nothing day.

nope, I need to replace an inverter. Saving 10% makes sense.

[kassy]

You can buy things you need. But do check if you actually save 10% if you get it on Black Friday related sales since many are fake. People buy lots of things they do not need and this they should skip on all days of the year.

[uniquorn]

You can buy things you need. But do check if you actually save 10% if you get it on Black Friday related sales since many are fake. People buy lots of things they do not need and this they should skip on all days of the year.

thanks for your permission and advice

[etienne]

Well, on Buy Nothing Day/Black Friday, it is harder to buy only things you need. I went for groceries and had to hold back a few times.

[kassy]

Promoting buy nothing only around a sales day is symbolism. It´s like people doing some crash diet to go back to their old habits after a while. If you really want to change you change your ways forever. Build resistance to consumerism.

Source locally what you can because all the cheap crap from the internet means that the money goes out of local circulation etc. Fight the modern Verelendung! And buy a pitchfork if you find a good deal.

[Rodius]

Promoting buy nothing only around a sales day is symbolism. It´s like people doing some crash diet to go back to their old habits after a while. If you really want to change you change your ways forever. Build resistance to consumerism.

Source locally what you can because all the cheap crap from the internet means that the money goes out of local circulation etc. Fight the modern Verelendung! And buy a pitchfork if you find a good deal.

This is exactly how we stop wars .

Maybe it seems over simplistic but I honestly believe this.

Stop buying anything beyond your basic needs.

Only drive if it is more than 5km, ride a bike, a scooter, walk, anything but a car.

Stop buying clothes. Shit, I read an article on how much clothes we buy per year and it is gobsmacking. I cant recall the exact numbers but it is something like 80 billion items per year. That is 400% more than 20 years ago. It is insanity.

There are so many things we can do to reduce our consumption which reduces the need for resources and reduces the powerful benefits for war.

Too simple?

[LeftyLarry]

Socrates once said, “All wars are fought for money.”  Perhaps we should be focusing our efforts on bringing people out of poverty.  This won’t stop greed, but may make headways.

Look at a country like Egypt.
With no chance of being able to feed them, Egypt adds about , 500,000 babies every 6 months.
How can you stop poverty with that growth rate?

[Florifulgurator]

(...)
Too simple?

Too individualo. Without a representative mass movement the effect is just individual symbolism and virtue signalling. The effect is zero or perhaps even negative (Monty Python's palestinian suicide army) - except you have fun... The way to peace has 2 variables: More fun with less junk.

[SteveMDFP]

 If this peace peace or war, or birth control verses none,  or disease suppression verses natural selection, or food verses famine were the only options for the control of human numbers then from the perspective of All other life forms threaten by humans how would you proceed. If you could think of some other values than those that always favor humans and money what would be the management decisions that would assure all wild stocks of plants and animals some representation, some value, and some assurance that their numbers are maintained ?
And if the answer is peace, free breeding, high tech human disease controls, and fossil fuel derived food production then you are simply favoring money interests under the cover of righteousness.
Because this path will also destroy human existence , but there will be a profit in it.

[Paddy]

Socrates once said, “All wars are fought for money.”  Perhaps we should be focusing our efforts on bringing people out of poverty.  This won’t stop greed, but may make headways.

Look at a country like Egypt.
With no chance of being able to feed them, Egypt adds about , 500,000 babies every 6 months.
How can you stop poverty with that growth rate?

Actually, the birth rate in Egypt as of 2023 was 2 million a year, or 1 million every 6 months. Which is actually significantly lower than the peak in 2014 of 2.7 million a year. And another figure that should be considered alongside the absolute birth rate is the fertility rate, which is 2.88 children per woman according to the world bank - significantly above replacement fertility, but far from the highest in the world.

Something else worth considering alongside this: lower poverty rates tend to lead to reduced birth rates, so you may be putting the cart before the horse here.  Although we run the risk of getting thoroughly off-topic by debating this in depth.

[etienne]

(...)
Too simple?

Too individualo. Without a representative mass movement the effect is just individual symbolism and virtue signalling. The effect is zero or perhaps even negative (Monty Python's palestinian suicide army) - except you have fun... The way to peace has 2 variables: More fun with less junk.

It's always nice not to be alone for such an action. Boycott works better if more people agree not to buy some products. The BDS movement https://bdsmovement.net/ has a list of products regarding Israel.
But regarding the war in Ukraine, I am not sure that some specific companies can be targeted, but a general reduction of the consumption of fossil fuels, included the embedded fossil fuels make sense. Both sides get their money from oil and gas.
To be effective, it needs to be talked about. Just acting without sharing the info is a beginning, but it's better if other people follow.

[Florifulgurator]

Yeah, it feels great being the only one in a dozen million who does carbon sequestration by home heating and cooking.  (I'm even fulgurating spectacular flowers on the result, but nobody cares...    )
 

Yes, the fossil fuels. That's what it's all about. Fossil economic dementia and psychopathy. This is the last stand of the fossil fools. Who wants to be a bloody fool? (Hmmm, looks like half of mankind... But only half!)

[Rodius]

Yeah, it feels great being the only one in a dozen million who does carbon sequestration by home heating and cooking.  (I'm even fulgurating spectacular flowers on the result, but nobody cares...    )
 

Yes, the fossil fuels. That's what it's all about. Fossil economic dementia and psychopathy. This is the last stand of the fossil fools. Who wants to be a bloody fool? (Hmmm, looks like half of mankind... But only half!)

Acting as an individual is not trivial because the actions we take are within our control.
So if I do what I can and it is far less than the average, it matters.

Having more people replicate it in their way helps, having a movement helps, but  on a personal level, taking control of the things you have influence is hugely important.

It is like voting. People will tell you one vote doesnt matter and those who say that are typically in power and is helpful for them. One vote matters. One person reducing their consumption matters.

Making is large scale is hard especially when we are up against the propaganda and marketing sciences that infiltrate our lives and influence us to buy, buy, buy.

As for marketing events like Black Friday (where did that come from???), I am in favor of buying as many products that I need at the lowest possible price possible, so I buy on special all the time and rarely buy anythign but essentials at full price. I do that because the profits are lower for the companies and I know they cant stay in business if those prices are the usual reason people buy products.

I love specials because it screws the companies over, but the discipline of entering a store and only buying what you need and only when on special is not easy. The Black Friday events are profitable because people by the specials and then buy non special items at the same time.

[LeftyLarry]

(...)
Too simple?

Too individualo. Without a representative mass movement the effect is just individual symbolism and virtue signalling. The effect is zero or perhaps even negative (Monty Python's palestinian suicide army) - except you have fun... The way to peace has 2 variables: More fun with less junk.

It's always nice not to be alone for such an action. Boycott works better if more people agree not to buy some products. The BDS movement https://bdsmovement.net/ has a list of products regarding Israel.
But regarding the war in Ukraine, I am not sure that some specific companies can be targeted, but a general reduction of the consumption of fossil fuels, included the embedded fossil fuels make sense. Both sides get their money from oil and gas.
To be effective, it needs to be talked about. Just acting without sharing the info is a beginning, but it's better if other people follow.

Yea BDS works real well. Here in America they had a few stores that decided not to carry Israeli goods from the West Bank, then , well meaning Christians and Jews bought 2 times as many things like couscous and olive oil etc. Etc and started boycotting the markets that didn’t carry Israeli products.
That ended the BDS very quickly.

[Rodius]

(...)
Too simple?

Too individualo. Without a representative mass movement the effect is just individual symbolism and virtue signalling. The effect is zero or perhaps even negative (Monty Python's palestinian suicide army) - except you have fun... The way to peace has 2 variables: More fun with less junk.

It's always nice not to be alone for such an action. Boycott works better if more people agree not to buy some products. The BDS movement https://bdsmovement.net/ has a list of products regarding Israel.
But regarding the war in Ukraine, I am not sure that some specific companies can be targeted, but a general reduction of the consumption of fossil fuels, included the embedded fossil fuels make sense. Both sides get their money from oil and gas.
To be effective, it needs to be talked about. Just acting without sharing the info is a beginning, but it's better if other people follow.

Yea BDS works real well. Here in America they had a few stores that decided not to carry Israeli goods from the West Bank, then , well meaning Christians and Jews bought 2 times as many things like couscous and olive oil etc. Etc and started boycotting the markets that didn’t carry Israeli products.
That ended the BDS very quickly.

The Evil Empire wins again.

[The Walrus]

(...)
Too simple?

Too individualo. Without a representative mass movement the effect is just individual symbolism and virtue signalling. The effect is zero or perhaps even negative (Monty Python's palestinian suicide army) - except you have fun... The way to peace has 2 variables: More fun with less junk.

It's always nice not to be alone for such an action. Boycott works better if more people agree not to buy some products. The BDS movement https://bdsmovement.net/ has a list of products regarding Israel.
But regarding the war in Ukraine, I am not sure that some specific companies can be targeted, but a general reduction of the consumption of fossil fuels, included the embedded fossil fuels make sense. Both sides get their money from oil and gas.
To be effective, it needs to be talked about. Just acting without sharing the info is a beginning, but it's better if other people follow.

Yea BDS works real well. Here in America they had a few stores that decided not to carry Israeli goods from the West Bank, then , well meaning Christians and Jews bought 2 times as many things like couscous and olive oil etc. Etc and started boycotting the markets that didn’t carry Israeli products.
That ended the BDS very quickly.

The Evil Empire wins again.

No.  It just shows more support for Israel than Gaza.