Europe

[Freegrass]

This is a European forum, and we don't have a thread for Europe?
Ridiculous…
So here it is.

I send this video to my friend, Bjorn Soenens, who I've been in contact with for many years, and who is the lead America reporter for VRT, our public broadcasting network.

His response was “fascinating”. He's been wanting to interview Jeffrey Sachs for many years now, but he never succeeded.

After seeing this video, he told me he will try it again.

Bjorn is coming back to Belgium at the end of this year. So this may be his last wish. He knows Jeffrey is right. He just needs him to back up what he's learned from living in the US for all these years.

GO EUROPE!!!

Thank you Zenith for this interview.
Just stop being an asshole.

[etienne]

There are few very good points in the video, but also things that are completely US centered. You can't just say that things you don't understand are stupid, like about the relations between the Baltic states and Russia.
Europe is the country of the human rights, so yes, China is not as great as what he thinks for Europe. China right now is a main competitor on world markets, so yes, it's not sure that the best thing Europe can do is open the doors.
Of course Europe needs peace with Russia, but peace requires trust. It's the war in Ukraine that made the way for Finland and Sweden in the NATO, so you could say that it was also a mistake that Russia made.
My recommendation would be that if people wouldn't just find stupid what they don't understand, maybe it would be easier to built a better world.
I agree that Europe needs to find a way that is independent of the US before the US decide that they don't need Europe anymore. If Europe has to pay the US for it's protection, it can also organize it without the US. Europe would probably be better off now that the US seem to wish war around Europe.
Since WWII, there was a deal between the US which was US protection for an open European  market, and if the US break their part of the deal, there is no reason for Europe to keep its part.
By the way, Hungary isn't know as the best example of democracy, but it looks like the US don't care about democracy, for sure not in South and Central America or in the middle east. That's one main difference between the two sides of the north Atlantic. Well, Europe didn't care for democracy in the colonies.

[kassy]

Your comment is also rather US centered since (western) European politics since WW2 are aligned like that.

The modern world is more and more connected so by and large we are becoming more of a global monoculture where we now suddenly do Halloween the US way and copy more of their christmas excesses.

Europe did not care for democracy at home until it had too.

[zenith]

she knows that us empire is fighting for it's life and taking the vassal states down with it. the vassal states need to realign and act in their best interests, not allow themselves to be sacrificed on the stars and stripes alter.

Germany Deindustrialising & Subordinated - Sevim Dağdelen, Alexander Mercouris & Glenn Diesen

[etienne]

I didn't watch the video, but googled the people I didn't know. If you put together a Putin's fan club, you probably can't get an objective result. I'll trust the Guardian more even if they support the establishment.
I agree that Europe needs to be independent, but that doesn't mean looking for another superpower to bend under.

[zenith]

I agree that Europe needs to be independent, but that doesn't mean looking for another superpower to bend under.

false dichotomy. the united states is the sole world superpower, the global hegemon. if europe doesn't reassert it's sovereignty then you're done. the united states empire is in irreversible decline and you're being sacrificed. that you're doing it willingly is insane.

[zenith]

I didn't watch the video, but googled the people I didn't know. If you put together a Putin's fan club, you probably can't get an objective result. I'll trust the Guardian more even if they support the establishment.

maybe you should watch the video instead of commenting out of ignorance. they discuss how the guardian calls the BSW party far right while other western msm call them far left. she discusses their policy positions, they sound reasonable to me. i wish our left parties would take such positions.

[Neven]

I didn't watch the video, but googled the people I didn't know. If you put together a Putin's fan club, you probably can't get an objective result. I'll trust the Guardian more even if they support the establishment.

Why don't you watch the video and see what happens? You may come to the conclusion that they're critical of western policies, rather than a Putin fan club. Of course, if you're afraid you'll reach that conclusion, don't watch it, continue relying exclusively on The Guardian and Google, and contradict yourself at every turn.

[Freegrass]

Europe did not care for democracy at home until it had too.

Europe invented democracy in the 5th century BC, where the city of Athens had a direct democracy.

In other words, people directly made decisions by voting for aspects of the city's government.

https://www.europeana.eu/en/stories/a-history-of-democracy-in-europe-from-ancient-greece-to-the-european-union

[The Walrus]

Europe did not care for democracy at home until it had too.

Europe invented democracy in the 5th century BC, where the city of Athens had a direct democracy.

In other words, people directly made decisions by voting for aspects of the city's government.

https://www.europeana.eu/en/stories/a-history-of-democracy-in-europe-from-ancient-greece-to-the-european-union

But it was precisely the people directly voting for decisions that led to its failure.  Consequently, few countries have chosen to emulate Athens firm if democracy.

[Rodius]

Europe did not care for democracy at home until it had too.

Europe invented democracy in the 5th century BC, where the city of Athens had a direct democracy.

In other words, people directly made decisions by voting for aspects of the city's government.

https://www.europeana.eu/en/stories/a-history-of-democracy-in-europe-from-ancient-greece-to-the-european-union

But it was precisely the people directly voting for decisions that led to its failure.  Consequently, few countries have chosen to emulate Athens firm if democracy.

Given it was 2500 years ago and the beginnings of civilisation, one would hope we had made improvements since then,

And there is zero chance the fall of Athens was just how people voted. If things were so easily narrowed down like that, history would be easy.

[kassy]

Europe did not care for democracy at home until it had too.

Europe invented democracy in the 5th century BC, where the city of Athens had a direct democracy.

In other words, people directly made decisions by voting for aspects of the city's government.

Yes but it was not a universal solution in Greece. Imperial Rome did not care nor did the later monarchs care and they were around for a long time. You have to go forwards to the French revolution and that did not bring democracy but it demonstrated the power of the modern nation state and that you could replace kings.

Almost the whole continent ended up with a multiparty system with proportional representation but it took a couple of wars and revolutions.

[The Walrus]

Europe did not care for democracy at home until it had too.

Europe invented democracy in the 5th century BC, where the city of Athens had a direct democracy.

In other words, people directly made decisions by voting for aspects of the city's government.

https://www.europeana.eu/en/stories/a-history-of-democracy-in-europe-from-ancient-greece-to-the-european-union

But it was precisely the people directly voting for decisions that led to its failure.  Consequently, few countries have chosen to emulate Athens firm if democracy.

Given it was 2500 years ago and the beginnings of civilisation, one would hope we had made improvements since then,

And there is zero chance the fall of Athens was just how people voted. If things were so easily narrowed down like that, history would be easy.

That, and it had no checks and balances.  The people thought too highly of themselves and voted to go to war with Sparta, and that ended horribly.  They even voted down Spartas favorable terms for peace.  This is same democratic procedure that voted to execute Socrates.

Ultimately, Athens fell due to outside military conquests; first Macedonia, then Rome. 

[Rodius]

That, and it had no checks and balances.  The people thought too highly of themselves and voted to go to war with Sparta, and that ended horribly.  They even voted down Spartas favorable terms for peace.  This is same democratic procedure that voted to execute Socrates.

Ultimately, Athens fell due to outside military conquests; first Macedonia, then Rome.

Do you see the parallels between the US and Ancient Greece?

[The Walrus]

That, and it had no checks and balances.  The people thought too highly of themselves and voted to go to war with Sparta, and that ended horribly.  They even voted down Spartas favorable terms for peace.  This is same democratic procedure that voted to execute Socrates.

Ultimately, Athens fell due to outside military conquests; first Macedonia, then Rome.

Do you see the parallels between the US and Ancient Greece?

No.  Completely different systems.  Not to mention Athens had the weaker military.

[Rodius]

That, and it had no checks and balances.  The people thought too highly of themselves and voted to go to war with Sparta, and that ended horribly.  They even voted down Spartas favorable terms for peace.  This is same democratic procedure that voted to execute Socrates.

Ultimately, Athens fell due to outside military conquests; first Macedonia, then Rome.

Do you see the parallels between the US and Ancient Greece?

No.  Completely different systems.  Not to mention Athens had the weaker military.

Not so much the systems... but the approach of the empires.

Athens had outside military conquests and were aggressive about it which was one reason it fell.

The US has a large military and is aggressive about it... hasnt fallen yet but the signs are all there.

Those are parralells for many empires just before they fail.

[The Walrus]

That, and it had no checks and balances.  The people thought too highly of themselves and voted to go to war with Sparta, and that ended horribly.  They even voted down Spartas favorable terms for peace.  This is same democratic procedure that voted to execute Socrates.

Ultimately, Athens fell due to outside military conquests; first Macedonia, then Rome.

Do you see the parallels between the US and Ancient Greece?

No.  Completely different systems.  Not to mention Athens had the weaker military.

Not so much the systems... but the approach of the empires.

Athens had outside military conquests and were aggressive about it which was one reason it fell.

The US has a large military and is aggressive about it... hasnt fallen yet but the signs are all there.

Those are parralells for many empires just before they fail.

In Athens case, the outside militaries (Sparta, Macedonia, Rome) were the stronger.

[Rodius]

That, and it had no checks and balances.  The people thought too highly of themselves and voted to go to war with Sparta, and that ended horribly.  They even voted down Spartas favorable terms for peace.  This is same democratic procedure that voted to execute Socrates.

Ultimately, Athens fell due to outside military conquests; first Macedonia, then Rome.

Do you see the parallels between the US and Ancient Greece?

No.  Completely different systems.  Not to mention Athens had the weaker military.

Not so much the systems... but the approach of the empires.

Athens had outside military conquests and were aggressive about it which was one reason it fell.

The US has a large military and is aggressive about it... hasnt fallen yet but the signs are all there.

Those are parralells for many empires just before they fail.

In Athens case, the outside militaries (Sparta, Macedonia, Rome) were the stronger.

And the US is in decline... it wont be the strongest for much longer but they will still fight all the to the bottom.
Every civilization fails and the signs of collapse are showing up all over the place with the US. I suspect the fall will be fast... it is also interesting that nobody sees the collapse just before it happens.

[kassy]

But that is digressing from the topic which is Europe.

You are overthinking Athens too. Yes it had a good run for a while then it got worse and the local democracy phase was gone. Things change across history and for a long time democracy in Athens was not a thing and it was not a thing for thousands of years in most of Europe.

Yeah sure Athens invented democracy but it was not popular until much later when the world had changed.

[etienne]

Athens was a great try, but a democracy where everyone isn't a citizen is not really a democracy. The interesting thing is that the Councillors were not elected, but selected by lot to avoid manipulation. Well, it seems that it didn't work too well because everybody doesn't seem to agree about the procedure.