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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5750 on: September 27, 2018, 06:30:27 PM »
...
But in the real world right now not everyone has a Tesla, charging networks, at least here in the UK, are unreliable and often the only option is to use a Type 2 charger which means a 30 minute stop will leave you needing another charge in much less than 50 miles. Yes, it's inconvenient but it's the price you will pay for being an early adopter. I recently stopped at a service area near Birmingham. The CCS/CHAdeMO system was down (not uncommon) and I started to top up with a type 2. A family in a Leaf then arrived with a totally drained battery. I was happy to give them the "pleasure" of getting a  few miles in the tank so they could seek another option and headed off home burning a bit of carbon using my i3's Rex, passing a 12 stall Supercharger on the way out with not a Tesla in sight.

This is exactly why EVs with less than 200 miles of range are increasingly deemed unsatisfactory by the majority of people who are considering their first EV today.  They know longer-range EVs exist, and companies producing their first EVs know their customers will demand it.  Short-range, and long-range, EVs are geared to two different markets today.

The reason superchargers are often empty is because Teslas have so much range that they don’t need to supercharge very often.  And when they do stop to charge, they don’t stay long. ;)
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5751 on: September 27, 2018, 06:55:45 PM »
”However, this is the trend.  It can only get worse as the volume of Tesla's on the road increases.  Probably I read speculation on where it would go.”

The Tesla “trend,” now that their fleet is growing exponentially, is for newer cars to pay for supercharging (older Teslas have “grandfathered” free supercharging for life, which remains with the car, not its owner).  The electricity price is as consistent as is possible, given various country, state and local utility regulations.  (Priced by the kWh, or by the minute.  If by the minute, it varies according to the rate of charge being supplied.)
It is almost always cheaper than an ICE alternative.  Play with the calculator here:
https://www.tesla.com/supercharger

And yes, collecting a fee for remaining parked in a charging spot when you have finished charging, during a time of heavy station use, and thus preventing others from being able to charge...  is likely to continue.  Etiquette and Protocol, please! ;)
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5752 on: September 27, 2018, 07:07:38 PM »
Speaking of the devil:

Audi: By 2020 Our Electric Cars Will Fast Charge To 80% In 12 Minutes

https://insideevs.com/audi-electric-cars-charge-80-in-12-minutes/

Quote
Audi BEVs will get 350 kW ultra-fast charging
Currently, Audi is introducing its first all-electric model – the e-tron – which will be able to charge from 0 to 80% in around 30 minutes. That’s at 150 kW of power, which is industry-leading level for passenger cars. Also, the on-board charging (3-phase at 22 kW is swell too).

However, 150 kW is not the goal, but just a temporary level for the first two cars – the e-tron and e-tron Sportback (2019).

The third model – Audi e-tron GT – built on a second BEV platform and equipped with tech from Porsche, will be capable of charging at 350 kW. 80% state of charge should be achievable in 12-minutes.

Easy.  Because we have a very small battery pack! ;) ;D

Seriously:  faster charging is definitely on the way.  But the cars that can use it still need to be built. 
Musk’s most recent comments have been that 250 kW is about the best top speed for charging cars, because anything faster frags the pack.  So it will be interesting to see how these Audi batteries hold up.  Perhaps they are going with a battery chemistry that is less about long battery life and more about short-term convenience.
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NeilT

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5753 on: September 27, 2018, 07:37:49 PM »

That generalization is true but like everything else the specifics can be quite different than the generalization.  It is likely the case that Tesla's BMS simply does not allow power draw below a significantly dangerous threshold. No doubt that reaching the lower limits will have some degradation but it is probably insignificant if only used sporadically.

Not quite the point.  Simply by exhausting the cell and re-charging it degrades the cell.  The only way not to degrade the cell is not to drop it below 70% capacity.  Thus gaining tens of thousands of charges, so long as it does not overheat.  If you fully exhaust the cell, then it gets degraded.  No matter how good your charger is.  This is a physical issue with the technology.

Ok. But why would anyone do that other than "for science"?


People do that with ICE’s all the time.  Granted if you are paying $65k for a car you are not likely to do that.  However if you are paying $35k for a car you are more likely to be putting less power into it more times.

You can't misuse a supercharger.  Regardless of the SoC it will charge using the safest way possible


As stated above, you are not misusing the supercharger, you are misusing the cells in the battery.  Simply by discharging them fully and only partially charging before discharging them fully again, damages them.

It doesn’t matter if you are supercharging them or normal charging them.  You have cycled the cell, whereas putting that much power in at 70% does not cycle the cell.

This is vital and important information about how to charge and use EV’s.  If it is not understood here on this thread, then god help the ordinary person in the street.


In ICE this is the equivalent of not changing oil frequently enough.

Not quite.  There is no equivalent in an ICE for bad charging in an EV.  If you give an ICE a small amout of fuel or a large amount of fuel it does not care and operates the same way.  ICE oil chages are reaching 12,000 to 20,000 miles now.  It is such a long interval that modern technology monitors the quality of the oil viscosity and tells you when to change it.  This is vastly different from the daily EV charge or semi weekly EV charge.



Why not? I'm sure many fleets will be perfectly fine with that charging behavior.

The pressures of fleet life will force more partial charges at a lower charge rate.  This degrades the battery more quickly. True Tesla may be able to eke out 100k miles in the very worst scenario and that may be fine for fleet vehicles, however it will impact the sell on price of these vehicles which will impact the overall cost of ownership in the long run.

That case is specific to you. A significant number of drivers have the same problem as you. However most drives have none of the problems you mention.

I’ll go with that.  I know I’m not standard in this.  But I have an inbuilt dislike of companies who try to make their problem mine.  i.e. not enough range?  Work harder at stopping and charging.
 
The "immigrant issue"? Can you explain what you mean?

Sorry I assumed it was common knowledge.  The entire west coast from Brittany to Belgium is flooded with illegal immigrants determined to illegally enter the UK.  They are breaking into trucks, fighting with the police, breaking into cars, putting trees on the Autoroute to cause accidents so they can break into the vehicles which have to stop for the tailback.  They are flooding rest areas and breaking into vehicles as far away as 100 miles.

All non serviced rest areas within 50 miles of Calais, heading into Calais from North or South, are permanently closed due to issues with illegal immigrants trying to break into vehicles and stow away.

She is now paranoid about it.  We know too many people who have been impacted by it.


That makes sense now but hopefully incremental increases in EV range, infrastructure and charging technology will eliminate that issue for people of your needs. Like all problems "divide and conquer" is the best approach to accelerate the advent of the electric car. First solve the easy problems and then use those solutions to tackle the hard problems.

Yep I know this but I’m the kind of person who believes telling the unvarnished truth, warts and all, means less people will be disappointed.  Also if the whole truth is told, simple actions like changing fuelling habits will mean less degradation and more happy customers.


Huh? That video promotes only reality. They recorded a charge, reduced it to 3 minutes and added a graph of the charging behavior.

It’s perception.  Maybe I’m just too much of a pessimist and a cynic.
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NeilT

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5754 on: September 27, 2018, 07:52:06 PM »
Easy solution:  an EV with 300+ miles of range. ;)

If you absolutely, positively, must drive 600 miles without stopping, then definitely place an order for the Tesla Roadster 2.0.  It may end up having even more range than that.  You’ll probably also need a supply of adult diapers, though. ;D

Not a solution at 300, she needs to arrive and have power after having driven 400 miles without stopping.

As for 600 miles without stopping, yes 5 minute toilet break every 300 miles or so. I don't stop to eat when I'm driving long distance, when I get fuel and pay for it (10 minutes), I buy something I can eat on the move.  My safe driving capability stops at 20 hours non stop.  Then I have to have an hour or two of sleep.  If I had to fit 5 hours of charging into that, my journey is going to double as I’ll have to sleep overnight at least once, maybe twice, I won’t get the benefit of that in charging because once 1.5 hours of that is done charging, the rest is lost time.

That doesn’t even begin to deal with the Autobahn situation.  A Model 3 travelling at around 130mph will last 40 minutes and then need to sit there for the full supercharger session before it can go again.  The whole point  about the Autobahn is that when the road is clear, like at night, you just put your foot down and get on with travelling.  My best is 240 miles in two hours but then the car needed to slow down as it was vaporising oil.

On the Autobahn high speed is very common and used to get places fast.  Yep you have to pay for it, but the option is there and significant numbers of people are willing to do that.  EV’s simply cannot do that, they don’t have the power and they take far too long to charge.
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NeilT

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5755 on: September 27, 2018, 07:58:23 PM »
Seriously:  faster charging is definitely on the way.

Only to 90% until they change the battery technology.  Go back to the supercharger video and read the power pushed into the pack.  As it hits around 70%, the power drops rapidly to stop overheating.

The only way to have faster charging is to build MUCH bigger battery backs and only charge them to 90% but have a massively more parallel charge approach.

With current technology that is weight and weight reduces performance and m/kwh.

Seriously?  We need a step change in battery technology before we see a step change in range, power and charging times.

Come on the technology, today, is good, it is pushing the boundaries of the Li technology, Tesla is doing a fantastic job with it.  But reality is that charging times are not going to half and ranges are not going to double until the underlying technology changes.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5756 on: September 27, 2018, 09:03:28 PM »
”Tesla may be able to eke out 100k miles in the very worst scenario and that may be fine for fleet vehicles...”

In the very worst scenario of supercharging multiple times a day, every day, up to 95%, Tesloop’s shuttle-service Teslas are doing just fine at 300,000 miles and more.

Tesloop’s Model X 90D “Deuxy” Achieves 300,000 Miles In Less Than Two Years
https://www.tesloop.com/blog/2018/8/2/model-x-90d-300000-miles-in-two-years


Edit:
“I have had a $TSLA for 6 years. I have supercharged a total of 3 times. There is no use for intraday charging for daily driving.”
https://twitter.com/misckawitz/status/1045390799377223680
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 09:18:27 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #5757 on: September 27, 2018, 09:48:06 PM »
So... it’s pretty clear they were only making these to get the subsidy.  But at least (they claim) they will soon be offering PHEVs with more electric range.

German automakers stop selling plug-in hybrids after losing incentives
Quote
German automakers from BMW to Porsche are pulling their plug-in hybrids from sale in Europe after the change from the NEDC standard to the WLTP standard is resulting in them losing incentives.

By changing the standard in Europe, buyers get to see more accurate electric range out of automakers, but the new test cycle is also reducing the official efficiency rating of the vehicles.  They need CO2 emissions below 50 grams per kilometer in order to get the incentives.  Several plug-in hybrids don’t comply and therefore, the automaker decided to simply pull them from the market.

Auto News Europe gathered comments from a few automakers about several vehicles that won’t be available temporarily or indefinitely:

- VW has stopped sales of the midsize Passat GTE, Europe’s No. 2-selling plug-in hybrid. A VW spokesman said the model will not be sold again until next July, when an update for the Passat range is due.
- VW also has stopped selling the compact Golf GTE, Europe’s No. 4-selling plug-in hybrid. The company did not give a date for its return.
- Porsche has pulled sales of its plug-in hybrid Panamera sedan and Cayenne SUV. “We will not start taking orders again until the cars are being built, the timing of which has not yet been confirmed,” a spokesman said.
- Mercedes currently has no plug-in hybrids available to order but will start selling them again within the next two months, starting with the S-class and E-class models. The C class is not due until next year, a spokesman said. All will record under 50g/km of CO2, he said.
- BMW is working to switch its plug-in hybrids over to WLTP. The company says the 530e sedan is available to order with emissions below 50g/km. The BMW 225xe Active Tourer minivan also can be ordered but with a CO2 figure of 57g/km, which is above the critical threshold.

A few other vehicles, like the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV and the Volvo XC60 PHEV, still have access to the subsidy and they are staying available on the market.
https://electrek.co/2018/09/27/german-automakers-stop-selling-bmw-porsche-plug-in-hybrids-losing-subsidy/
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Archimid

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5758 on: September 27, 2018, 10:34:41 PM »
Not quite the point.  Simply by exhausting the cell and re-charging it degrades the cell.  The only way not to degrade the cell is not to drop it below 70% capacity.  Thus gaining tens of thousands of charges, so long as it does not overheat.

I'm going to have to ask for a source for your claim that above 70% there is no degradation.

This is how Li+ batteries degrade:




Quote
As stated above, you are not misusing the supercharger, you are misusing the cells in the battery.  Simply by discharging them fully and only partially charging before discharging them fully again, damages them.

Yes, but that damage is already accounted for in the life of the battery. The battery will degrade overtime. That's inevitable, but using a BMS degradation can be gradual enough to last 10 years and hundreds of thousands of miles.


Quote
It doesn’t matter if you are supercharging them or normal charging them.  You have cycled the cell, whereas putting that much power in at 70% does not cycle the cell.

This makes sense for lead acid batteries not Li+. Read this:

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

Also, and this is very important, Tesla batteries are never fully discharged. They stop providing power to the car at 3V but the real 0 of a Li+ batteries is much lower than that.

Quote
The pressures of fleet life will force more partial charges at a lower charge rate.  This degrades the battery more quickly. True Tesla may be able to eke out 100k miles in the very worst scenario and that may be fine for fleet vehicles, however it will impact the sell on price of these vehicles which will impact the overall cost of ownership in the long run.

The opposite is happening. Fleet vehicle seem to be quite commercially viable.

Quote
“The Model S have held up beautifully since they’ve been put to work in 2014, having an average of over 250,000-300,000 km (155,000 – 186,000 miles) on each odometer by the end of 2017. Taxis and other commercial vehicles have a very different usage pattern and could drive up to over 100,000 km (62,000 miles) per year.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-x-replaces-model-s-taxis-netherlands/

 
Quote
Sorry I assumed it was common knowledge.  The entire west coast from Brittany to Belgium is flooded with illegal immigrants determined to illegally enter the UK.  They are breaking into trucks, fighting with the police, breaking into cars, putting trees on the Autoroute to cause accidents so they can break into the vehicles which have to stop for the tailback.  They are flooding rest areas and breaking into vehicles as far away as 100 miles.

All non serviced rest areas within 50 miles of Calais, heading into Calais from North or South, are permanently closed due to issues with illegal immigrants trying to break into vehicles and stow away.

She is now paranoid about it.  We know too many people who have been impacted by it.

Easily solvable problem by just allowing people to work and pay taxes. However, people fear what is different and that fear transfers to government. Very dark times ahead as solutions to government created migrant problems are implemented

Quote
Yep I know this but I’m the kind of person who believes telling the unvarnished truth, warts and all, means less people will be disappointed.  Also if the whole truth is told, simple actions like changing fuelling habits will mean less degradation and more happy customers.

I believe you. The problem is that you can't possibly know the truth. You can only know the truth from the small amount of knowledge you have relative to how much knowledge there is. We are all subject to that limit.

We must hold temporary truths in order to make sense of the world but ideally that truth can be changed as soon as a new information emerges.

Quote
It’s perception.  Maybe I’m just too much of a pessimist and a cynic.

Blue and black dress vs  white and gold dress.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

litesong

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5759 on: September 28, 2018, 02:12:55 AM »
I can't believe that EVs are driving down the cost of used ICE cars, WOW. It is such a strong trend, that it is driving down the price of used EVs too. (used model S price falling $1k a month and accelerating)
It's NOT the EVs that drive down used EV prices. Its obvious from EV "testers" & specially the long-term testers in magazines, & on internet websites, that many EV drivers DON'T use ways to lengthen battery life. They use every technique to abuse battery packs.  Reading & watching all these battery abusers, people then conclude, "I'll buy a new EV instead of a battery abused used EV". Treat the battery pack with the best battery saving techniques, & get 200,000 to 300,000 miles.   

NeilT

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5760 on: September 28, 2018, 08:47:45 AM »

Easily solvable problem by just allowing people to work and pay taxes. However, people fear what is different and that fear transfers to government. Very dark times ahead as solutions to government created migrant problems are implemented

I don't have a lot of time as I'm flying out to Germany today.

It is not an easily solvable problem in the EU.  These people do not want to work and pay taxes in France, they want to work and pay taxes in the UK.  They entered the EU illegally in Spain or Italy or Greece and then, against EU law, refused to apply for asylum in they country they landed in because they want to get to the UK.

There is a similar problem in Sweden where people walk and hike more than 1,000 miles to get to Sweden when they could simply have applied in Greece or Italy and stopped.

It is quite an intractable problem.   The UK does not want them and has a hard border.  The EU has rules to allow them in and has a porous border.

Anyway, that is a political off topic which is causing  a problem that ICE's don't have and owning an EV would exacerbate.
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Archimid

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5761 on: September 29, 2018, 02:51:44 AM »
Tesla v9 Beta - Drive by Navigation

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GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5762 on: September 29, 2018, 06:06:57 AM »
Tesla v9 Beta - Drive by Navigation

What a joke. I can name 10 companies further along with self driving tech than Tesla. Can you name one company that is doing anything related to self driving that is behind Tesla? NOPE
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GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5763 on: September 29, 2018, 06:17:28 AM »
It appears there is not the demand for EVs that was previously assumed. At least relative to current models at their current prices. It seems increasingly likely that legacy car companies will dominate the EV market and transition fairly slowly.
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5764 on: September 29, 2018, 06:23:30 AM »
I'd like to start a betting pool regarding the number of pro Tesla tweets Sigmetnow will post on this thread in the week prior to Tesla filing for bankruptcy. I'm going to draw the over-under line at 20. I'll open the wagers with $50 on the over. (obviously satire...any spare $50 go to Tesla put options of course)
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Archimid

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5765 on: September 29, 2018, 12:26:00 PM »
The following video is 13 minutes long and has great info. I'm posting this video starting at 10:55 because at that point Bjorn uses a graph that compares the charging behavior of Tesla, Ipace, Kona, and Niro.


Jaguar I-Pace charging on 350 kW fast charger


https://youtu.be/0YAwTSpt4pk?t=10m55s
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5766 on: September 29, 2018, 03:32:59 PM »
I'd like to start a betting pool regarding the number of pro Tesla tweets Sigmetnow will post on this thread in the week prior to Tesla filing for bankruptcy. I'm going to draw the over-under line at 20. I'll open the wagers with $50 on the over. (obviously satire...any spare $50 go to Tesla put options of course)

And what week will that be exactly??  You’ve been claiming Tesla will be bankrupt by Q3, then by Q4, and more recently “in March.”  Talk about moving the goalposts! Those predictions have been made constantly since 2008, and they are even more false now than they were then.

If on November 7 Tesla announces a profit for Q3, will you please do us all a favor and shut up about bankruptcy?  At least until Q4 results are announced?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2018, 03:38:47 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5767 on: September 29, 2018, 03:52:37 PM »
Trump administration to world:  Drop Dead.

Trump administration sees a 7-degree rise in global temperatures by 2100
Quote
September 28
Last month, deep in a 500-page environmental impact statement, the Trump administration made a startling assumption: On its current course, the planet will warm a disastrous 7 degrees by the end of this century.

A rise of 7 degrees Fahrenheit, or about 4 degrees Celsius, compared with preindustrial levels would be catastrophic, according to scientists. Many coral reefs would dissolve in increasingly acidic oceans. Parts of Manhattan and Miami would be underwater without costly coastal defenses. Extreme heat waves would routinely smother large parts of the globe.

But the administration did not offer this dire forecast as part of an argument to combat climate change. Just the opposite: The analysis assumes the planet’s fate is already sealed.

The draft statement, issued by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), was written to justify President Trump’s decision to freeze federal fuel efficiency standards for cars and light trucks built after 2020. While the proposal would increase greenhouse gas emissions, the impact statement says, that policy would add just a very small drop to a very big, hot bucket.

“The amazing thing they’re saying is human activities are going to lead to this rise of carbon dioxide that is disastrous for the environment and society. And then they’re saying they’re not going to do anything about it,” said Michael MacCracken, who served as a senior scientist at the U.S. Global Change Research Program from 1993 to 2002.

The document projects that global temperature will rise by nearly 3.5 degrees Celsius above the average temperature between 1986 and 2005 regardless of whether Obama-era tailpipe standards take effect or are frozen for six years, as the Trump administration has proposed. The global average temperature rose more than 0.5 degrees Celsius between 1880, the start of industrialization, and 1986, so the analysis assumes a roughly 4 degree Celsius or 7 degree Fahrenheit increase from preindustrial levels.

The world would have to make deep cuts in carbon emissions to avoid this drastic warming,the analysis states. And that “would require substantial increases in technology innovation and adoption compared to today’s levels and would require the economy and the vehicle fleet to move away from the use of fossil fuels, which is not currently technologically feasible or economically feasible.”

The White House did not respond to requests for comment.

World leaders have pledged to keep the world from warming more than 2 degrees Celsius compared with preindustrial levels, and agreed to try to keep the temperature rise to 1.5 degrees Celsius. But the current greenhouse gas cuts pledged under the 2015 Paris climate agreement are not steep enough to meet either goal. Scientists predict a 4 degree Celsius rise by the century’s end if countries take no meaningful actions to curb their carbon output.  ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/trump-administration-sees-a-7-degree-rise-in-global-temperatures-by-2100/2018/09/27/b9c6fada-bb45-11e8-bdc0-90f81cc58c5d_story.html?utm_term=.7131caede9b9

We’ve been through all this before!  Why should my country take action if yours does not?  The thing is, all countries have agreed to take action.  Not enough action, granted, but we have to start somewhere.  Some backsliding was inevitable, I suppose.  And this fits right in with the fossil fuel attempts to make as much money as they can in the short time they have left — future generations be damned.
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GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5768 on: September 29, 2018, 04:12:07 PM »
You’ve been claiming Tesla will be bankrupt by Q3, then by Q4....

That's called a lie.
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5769 on: October 01, 2018, 10:23:43 AM »
You’ve been claiming Tesla will be bankrupt by Q3, then by Q4....

That's called a lie.

No that's called an interpretation.  In Q2 you were sure Tesla was going bust.  In Q3, you were sure Tesla was going bust.  It is now Q4 and you are sure Tesla is going bust.

Anyway there is a thread for that.



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NeilT

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5770 on: October 01, 2018, 10:27:49 AM »
I saw this over the weekend.

It is an interesting concept.  In fact it is being sold as a Charging infrastructure for Electric heavy vehicles right now.  But the concept is much more interesting than that.  If a Semi connects whilst fully charged, it can drive on the overhead power and drop off for local delivery on battery.  When it gets back on the Autobahn for the next leg it can top off the battery and arrive at the next local delivery fully charged.

Now that idea is actually viable and would make the world of electric trucking extremely feasible.  Allowing the full range of ICE trucking today with the clean power of electric.

Notably people are already attacking it as "wasteful" thinking that batteries will do it all.  Those who are delivering the power know different.
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #5771 on: October 01, 2018, 02:44:01 PM »
I saw this over the weekend.

It is an interesting concept.  In fact it is being sold as a Charging infrastructure for Electric heavy vehicles right now.  But the concept is much more interesting than that.  If a Semi connects whilst fully charged, it can drive on the overhead power and drop off for local delivery on battery.  When it gets back on the Autobahn for the next leg it can top off the battery and arrive at the next local delivery fully charged.

Now that idea is actually viable and would make the world of electric trucking extremely feasible.  Allowing the full range of ICE trucking today with the clean power of electric.

Notably people are already attacking it as "wasteful" thinking that batteries will do it all.  Those who are delivering the power know different.

Interesting, but will it really be needed, in a world where fully-loaded Class 8 semi trucks have a range “closer to 600 miles” (965 km)?  The autobahn is only 273 miles (440 km).

A megacharger will add 400 miles in 30 minutes.  Need to compare the time and costs of a possible brief truck charging stop, versus all the infrastructure needed for overhead lines along the length of road required to charge the same amount.  At the 56 mph limit specified for the system in that link, I bet getting a brief charge, then back on the road at top speed would be more efficient.

Also: if the autobahn can tolerate trucks at that speed, for that long, let’s not hear any more complaints about EVs being unacceptable if they can’t drive for hours at ridiculously high speeds just because the autobahn allows it. ;)
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NeilT

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« Reply #5772 on: October 01, 2018, 03:22:06 PM »
I'm going to have to ask for a source for your claim that above 70% there is no degradation.

This is how Li+ batteries degrade:





Yes I've seen all that, I've read hundreds of articles and I've listened to the way people talk.  There is a massive amount of information on batteries in this youtube link posted by Jim up thread.  Watch it, it is very interesting.  Especially the parts about the battery management and the number of sensors and how much the management system knows about the battery.  I'm sure there is a section in there about how to charge from fully depleted and what not to do but I just don't have time to watch it all.  I was skipping.

However, some things you have to read between the lines because almost every article on the internet deals with what "to do" not what "not to do".  But you can understand what not to do from the information

In this article from Battery University, it discusses the way you can get the very best out of the batteries.  However, very interestingly, it also gives you enough information to determine what will happen if you act like a complete idiot.

Remember this is individual cell level, battery management can be as smart as it likes, it will can do nothing about the way you use the battery, only the way you charge it.

So what does it say?

Quote
Similar to a mechanical device that wears out faster with heavy use, the depth of discharge (DoD) determines the cycle count of the battery.

Not how much did I charge it, not how many times I charged it, but very like a car battery as opposed to a Leisure battery, too many deep discharges takes the life away from the battery.

The whole article talks about depth of discharge.  If you look at what that really means, it is voltage. Essentially the closer to 3V you get the deeper you have discharged the battery.

There is no empirical evidence I can find that only partially charging a battery after 100% DoD, continually, will not constitute a full cycle.  But, on the other hand, every single article on the subject says that the deeper you discharge the battery the more damage you do.

Therefore it is logical that if only discharging 10% and charging 10% will allow 10,000 cycles, before degradation, instead of 500 cycles; then discharging totally (or as low as Tesla allows), then only charging partially (say 30%), then fully discharging the battery again, is going to do the opposite.

So, for instance, if you run your tesla from 90% to 60% 1,000 times, you will see a percentage of degradation at around 110,000 miles.

If, on the other hand, you deep discharge your battery and only put 30% in it, continuously, you are likely to get the same degradation at 250 cycles.  i.e. you are degrading the cycles twice as fast whereas in the other example you are degrading it half as fast as a normal full cycle.

In the second scenario you will do 4 times the cycling and see the same degradation at 27,500 miles.  This is OK because most Tesla's (but certainly not all), only see around 10% degradation in that 110,000 miles.

That being said, if the owner continues with this destructive deep cycling of the battery, the Tesla could easily see the battery drop close to 30% degradation at around 100,000 miles.

Which is why, I firmly believe, Tesla has changed their "mass market" warranty to meet that.


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NeilT

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« Reply #5773 on: October 01, 2018, 03:51:36 PM »
Interesting, but will it really be needed, in a world where fully-loaded Class 8 semi trucks have a range “closer to 600 miles” (965 km)?  The autobahn is only 273 miles (440 km).

Where did you get that from?  Munich to Hamburg, Via Autobahn, is 500 miles. Also there are significantly hilly ground over much of the route.  Your 600 miles will rapidly be 300 before you know it.  Germany also suffers from fairly cold winters the further north you go so more energy expended on heating and wipers etc.

Also I did mention that this solution allowed the trucks to travel on electrical power for the whole autobahn.  This reduces battery degradation and leaves the truck fully charged, at the end of the Autobahn journey and able to do off Autobahn deliveries without charging.

It also massively reduces battery degradation as, for the bulk of the long distance driving, the battery would not be in use.

This is a sensible suggestion.  Germans are pragmatic people. They don’t expect EV suppliers to tell them how to live their lives just because they can’t produce the technology to replace what customers already have.

Also the Tesla Semi is hardly going to provide the same performance with EU rated semi’s.  EU load capacity is 40 metric tonnes for normal Semi’s and 44 metric tonnes for Containerised transport.  Significantly higher than the Class 8 US Semi’s 36.3 metric tonnes.  Which means significantly less distance for the same battery pack.

Tesla has brought out a Semi with a 300 mile effective range between 30 minute charges, for a Semi which can max out at 36.3 tonnes.  At 40, or more especially 44, metric tonnes that pack is not going to give the same performance.

Germany probably won’t see volume Tesla Semis for a decade. What are they supposed to do?  Wait?  Germany has Mercedes, Mann, Volvo and Scania trucks.  They are moving to EV only by 2030. Putting out infrastructure there which makes the whole move easier is only sensible.  It is the next best thing to trying to move all the freight back onto rail.
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #5774 on: October 01, 2018, 03:53:12 PM »
...
Remember this is individual cell level, battery management can be as smart as it likes, it will can do nothing about the way you use the battery, only the way you charge it.
...

Battery management software controls the pack at individual module, even individual cell, level.  It most certainly can control how each small part of pack responds to a driver’s use, including charging (regen) and discharging various cells so as to keep all of them in the most optimal range possible.  A pack at “50%” does not mean every cell is at 50%.  Tesla’s proprietary Battery Management Software can make their performance markedly different from other batteries.
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #5775 on: October 01, 2018, 04:22:31 PM »
Interesting, but will it really be needed, in a world where fully-loaded Class 8 semi trucks have a range “closer to 600 miles” (965 km)?  The autobahn is only 273 miles (440 km).

Where did you get that from?  Munich to Hamburg, Via Autobahn, is 500 miles. Also there are significantly hilly ground over much of the route.  Your 600 miles will rapidly be 300 before you know it.  Germany also suffers from fairly cold winters the further north you go so more energy expended on heating and wipers etc.

Also I did mention that this solution allowed the trucks to travel on electrical power for the whole autobahn.  This reduces battery degradation and leaves the truck fully charged, at the end of the Autobahn journey and able to do off Autobahn deliveries without charging.

It also massively reduces battery degradation as, for the bulk of the long distance driving, the battery would not be in use.

This is a sensible suggestion.  Germans are pragmatic people. They don’t expect EV suppliers to tell them how to live their lives just because they can’t produce the technology to replace what customers already have.

Also the Tesla Semi is hardly going to provide the same performance with EU rated semi’s.  EU load capacity is 40 metric tonnes for normal Semi’s and 44 metric tonnes for Containerised transport.  Significantly higher than the Class 8 US Semi’s 36.3 metric tonnes.  Which means significantly less distance for the same battery pack.

Tesla has brought out a Semi with a 300 mile effective range between 30 minute charges, for a Semi which can max out at 36.3 tonnes.  At 40, or more especially 44, metric tonnes that pack is not going to give the same performance.

Germany probably won’t see volume Tesla Semis for a decade. What are they supposed to do?  Wait?  Germany has Mercedes, Mann, Volvo and Scania trucks.  They are moving to EV only by 2030. Putting out infrastructure there which makes the whole move easier is only sensible.  It is the next best thing to trying to move all the freight back onto rail.

I blame Siri for the 300 mile quote.  ;)

You are making up stuff about Tesla again.  The ~600 mile range is for a fully loaded class 8 semi at highway speeds.  So, it would still travel the entire autobahn with room to spare.  Compare the cost of adding a few megachargers along the way... to the cost of wiring up 500 miles of autobahn!  And only in one lane, so if there are slow vehicles in that lane....  Oh wait, they can leave that lane.  Running on batteries!

I’m sure even German truck drivers would love the freedom to choose the lane and the speed they can travel, as permitted by law.  Distributors would be quite unhappy about the delay for trucks forced to go no more than 56 mph for 500 miles.  And how well does the overhead system work in rain? or freezing rain? or snow? or even high winds?

Tesla is well aware of European truck requirements — the guy heading the project (until recently ;) ) previously headed truck development for Daimler.  Tesla homologates its cars for Europe within a year or two after launch.  Tesla semi’s will be across the pond by 2021, not, as you claim, “a decade.”
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oren

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5776 on: October 01, 2018, 05:35:52 PM »
Sig - the 600 miles of range is not an official number, rather 500 miles is the official one as of now, and in real life ranges are shorter anyway. In addition, a European truck weighs more than a US truck when fully loaded, so the range should be shorter as well due to that. I'm not saying it's a showstopper, but the range argument cannot be brushed aside.
Neil - that link was interesting but I think the downsides are quite significant, especially the need to wire most of the autobahns before it becomes really useful.
Other downsides were mentioned in the article:
Quote
The systems need to be installed on fairly long distances in order to supply a significant charge and that can be costly. Also, a connector and deployment system needs to be installed on the trucks using the overhead contact line, but several truck makers have shown interest in the technology.

Another limitation is the speed, but Siemens says that its solution allows the truck to travel at up to 90 km/h (56 mph), which is reasonable.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5777 on: October 01, 2018, 06:15:42 PM »
Sig - the 600 miles of range is not an official number, rather 500 miles is the official one as of now, and in real life ranges are shorter anyway. ...

Thus my “~600.” ;)  Referring to Musk’s repeated claim, after more testing and tweeking of the prototypes that were out and about on the road after the reveal, that the semi specs would be better than what was revealed, and range would be “probably closer to 600 miles.”  And that’s normal driving, under the worst conditions.  So even a heavier truck should be able to get “~600 miles” by managing energy/speed a bit more closely than “normal driving.” 

P.S.:  The U.S. has mountains, and cold weather, too. :)
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #5778 on: October 01, 2018, 08:04:49 PM »
Electric vehicle sales achieve new record in Norway with 45% of new cars being all-electric and 74% plug-in
Quote
The new car sales numbers for September from Norway are in and the country, which is already known for spearheading electrification, is reaching new levels of electric domination and low emission average.

10,620 new passenger cars were registered in Norway last month. About 45% of them were all-electric vehicles and the number goes up to 74% when including plug-in hybrids, according to official registration data.

It’s a new record for the country.

Average CO2 emissions of new cars registered are now at a record low of 55g per km, which is an impressive 16g per km lower than in September 2017. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/10/01/electric-vehicle-sales-new-record-norway-tesla/


Edit: correction?  In a good way: This says 52% were pure EVs.  Government numbers....

Tesla Driver (@m_xalher) 10/1/18, 3:10 PM
Norway, September 2018: 52% (fifty two percent!) of all new cars sold in Norway were pure EVs. Front page of business daily Finansavisen tomorrow. (Petrol 16.1%, diesel 12.4%, rest hybrids)
https://twitter.com/m_xalher/status/1046839757341433857
Norway, September 2018: Tesla by far the biggest car brand in Norway - 5 times as large as Merc, 15 times Audi! So far in 2018 Tesla is 6th largest, ahead of Merc, Audi, Ford (who all have rapidly falling sales). Love it! (offcial govt statistics at ofvas.no)
Of all cars delivered in Norway in September 2018, Tesla had a 20 percent market share. Just imagine what will happen when Model 3 arrives here!

Image below.  I can’t count in Norwegian ;) , but this looks pretty good to me.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 12:46:52 AM by Sigmetnow »
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #5779 on: October 01, 2018, 08:21:34 PM »
Toronto:
Model 3 Owners Club (@Model3Owners) 10/1/18, 12:56 PM
I get asked quite often how much it costs to charge my Tesla per month. Here’s my recent report from my utility company, I’m on a special pilot program for EV owners. This includes my household power consumption...
https://twitter.com/model3owners/status/1046806047959080960
I pay an adjusted $.02/kWh between 12-6AM
 ~3200km [2,000 miles] a month usage.
(Image at the link.)

Houndog5 (@houndog5) 10/1/18, 1:07 PM
I've found that is costs me about $100/month. I was spending nearly $650/month in gas for my jeep. Ive now not been to a gas station in 5 months. It's weird still to drive by my local station and, out of habit, my eyes glance down to see what my "gas gauge" says... then I giggle.
https://twitter.com/houndog5/status/1046808853638086660

Love The Earth (@amcgrath815) 10/1/18, 1:03 PM
 I'm also on a pilot program for EVs, with a separate meter. It costs me between $12 and $15 a month to charge. That includes a daily round-trip commute of 60 miles.
https://twitter.com/amcgrath815/status/1046807728738488320

CD Shaw (@prsist) 10/1/18, 1:00 PM
My calculations show I’m paying a little over $14 US a month to charge my Model 3 at home.
https://twitter.com/prsist/status/1046807123756167168

Wilson Schreiber (@akatylerdurden) 10/1/18, 1:54 PM
… Model 3 comes comes out to $0.041/mile ($0.030/mile if using off-peak), as compared to $0.111/mile for my ICE car of similar size (Jetta 1.8T). In this example, model 3 is 63-73% lower cost to drive. These are using costs of electricity & gas (my ICE gets 30 MPG) in New Hampshire
https://twitter.com/akatylerdurden/status/1046820731915571200
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5780 on: October 01, 2018, 08:51:38 PM »
Quote
P.S.:  The U.S. has mountains, and cold weather, too.
The mountains are crumbling and the islands are warming, per other threads on this forum.  Soon, we might not have either.  (Disclaimer, I think like a hard-rock geologist, and a million years is 'nothin'.)
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

Archimid

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« Reply #5781 on: October 02, 2018, 12:20:45 AM »
Audi e-tron cracks mark of 10,000 reservations

https://www.electrive.net/2018/09/27/audi-e-tron-knackt-marke-von-10-000-reservierungen/ (German)

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.electrive.net%2F2018%2F09%2F27%2Faudi-e-tron-knackt-marke-von-10-000-reservierungen%2F (tranlated to english)

Quote
According to Lahouari Bennaoum, France boss of the car manufacturer, Audi already records 10,000 pre-orders worldwide for its recently presented first fully electric series model e-tron and also mentions the relationship of private and commercial interested parties
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #5782 on: October 02, 2018, 12:57:04 AM »
Audi e-tron cracks mark of 10,000 reservations

Not quite 400,000 ;) — but good on them.  From the article, it looks like they expect 70% of their sales to be for fleets.  Apparently private reservations are rare enough that they all get a phone call for verification:

Quote
Audi is calling people who make a reservation for the e-tron.
Less than 3 hours after my reservation, I received a courtesy phone call from my local @Audi dealer. Looks like they might actually have the capacity to distribute and service their cars without putting customers through any kind of "hell."
https://twitter.com/midwesthedgie/status/1041690720359333888
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GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5783 on: October 02, 2018, 02:12:25 AM »
Not quite 400,000 ;) — but good on them.

Hey there dum dum. Please stop ignoring that the number you are referencing comes from a "420,000 reservations remaining" claim.

Will you ever admit that Musk just makes up numbers which he likes and that he thinks are clever?!? (AKA: childish fraud). Stop polluting this thread with your Tesla related stupidity. Please limit that nonsense to the Tesla glory/failure thread.

ir.tesla.com/news-releases/news-release-details/tesla-q2-2018-vehicle-production-and-deliveries

"The remaining net Model 3 reservations count at the end of Q2 still stood at roughly 420,000 even though we have now delivered 28,386 Model 3 vehicles to date."
« Last Edit: October 02, 2018, 05:05:51 AM by GoSouthYoungins »
big time oops

oren

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« Reply #5784 on: October 02, 2018, 07:26:42 AM »
Electric cars cast growing shadow on profits

These are just excerpts. Read the whole thing - I think it clearly shows traditional automakers will not make an EV revolution unless forced by regulation, Tesla or both.

Quote
Battery models making their car-show debut in Paris this week ... will erode profitability ... executives generally acknowledge.

But concerns are mounting that the impact could be worse, as consumers resist paying more for electrified vehicles - forcing carmakers to sell them at a bigger loss to meet emissions goals.

"What everyone needs to realize is that clean mobility is like organic food – it's more expensive," said Carlos Tavares, chief executive of Peugeot , Citroen and Opel manufacturer PSA.
...
"VW is about to launch a load of electric vehicles at the same price as gasolines, and therefore at a loss," said Laurent Petizon, a managing director at consulting firm AlixPartners.
...
Electric cars still cost 7,800 euros more to produce on average than conventional ones, AlixPartners calculates. Plug-in hybrids - which combine a smaller rechargeable battery with a combustion engine - overshoot by 5,000 euros.

When that cost gap is reflected in the price, few are sold.
...
"It absolutely is impacting the profitability of the industry," said Rebecca Lindland, a senior analyst at Kelley Blue Book, which tracks vehicle pricing. "Demand doesn't justify investment at all - it's all regulation."

Which is why, on this subject more than most, European carmakers talk from both sides of their mouths. While executives exude confidence for investors' and customers' benefit, their Brussels lobby group ACEA warns of an imminent threat to the region's 3.4 million automotive manufacturing jobs.

"The conditions for such a systemic change clearly aren't met, and consumers just aren't ready for full-electric," ACEA Secretary General Erik Jonnaert said recently.

https://www.investing.com/news/stock-market-news/electric-cars-cast-growing-shadow-on-profits-1629798

Archimid

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« Reply #5785 on: October 02, 2018, 11:53:50 AM »
Yeah that's kind of sad.

Quote
"The conditions for such a systemic change clearly aren't met, and consumers just aren't ready for full-electric," ACEA Secretary General Erik Jonnaert said recently.

10,000 Audi reservations and Tesla prove otherwise. I'm obviously in favor of Tesla, but I need for traditional automakers to jump in the EV revolution.  The faster the world transitions away from fossil fuels the better. I do believe that if legacy automakers can't make the transition they are going the way of the horse and buggy.
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #5786 on: October 02, 2018, 04:50:52 PM »
Yeah that's kind of sad.

Quote
"The conditions for such a systemic change clearly aren't met, and consumers just aren't ready for full-electric," ACEA Secretary General Erik Jonnaert said recently.

10,000 Audi reservations and Tesla prove otherwise. I'm obviously in favor of Tesla, but I need for traditional automakers to jump in the EV revolution.  The faster the world transitions away from fossil fuels the better. I do believe that if legacy automakers can't make the transition they are going the way of the horse and buggy.

Q4, Day 1:

Norway Deliveries...
Tesla: 8
Jaguar: 14
BOOOOOOOOM!!!

( https://twitter.com/prophettesla/status/1046887186971287552 )

 ;D

Audi and Jaguar’s first EVs seem much like the original Tesla Roadster:  the beginnings of a learning curve.  Hell for the car company, and less than perfect for the enthusiastic buyer, but a necessary step to better and more desirable EVs. 
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GoSouthYoungins

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« Reply #5787 on: October 02, 2018, 07:16:36 PM »
Tesla is facing a PR problem in Norway. They haven't been deliver parts to fix broken vehicles in months. Tesla is making less sales in Norway than they were last year at this time.
big time oops

Sigmetnow

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« Reply #5788 on: October 02, 2018, 08:09:06 PM »
Tesla is facing a PR problem in Norway. They haven't been deliver parts to fix broken vehicles in months. Tesla is making less sales in Norway than they were last year at this time.

In September, Tesla was the biggest brand in Norway, by far.
Quote
Norway, September 2018: Tesla by far the biggest car brand in Norway - 5 times as large as Merc, 15 times Audi! So far in 2018 Tesla is 6th largest, ahead of Merc, Audi, Ford (who all have rapidly falling sales)
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,438.msg175009.html#msg175009
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #5789 on: October 02, 2018, 10:34:28 PM »
Oh, my.  Nikola Motors celebrates its plan for its hydrogen fuel cell truck business to become the biggest energy waster user in the U.S. within 10 years. ::)

Nikola Motor Company (@nikolamotor)
10/1/18, 3:59 PM
Within 10 years,@nikolamotor will become the largest energy consumer in America. Estimated 820 stations going online by 2028. Each station fills 160 trucks daily- will consume 422 MWh of renewables (422 MWh X 828 stations = 349 GWh per day)
https://twitter.com/nikolamotor/status/1046852215565049857
Spreadsheet at the link.
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GoSouthYoungins

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« Reply #5790 on: October 03, 2018, 02:43:05 AM »
Oh, my.  Nikola Motors celebrates its plan for its hydrogen fuel cell truck business to become the biggest energy waster user in the U.S. within 10 years. ::)

Nikola Motor Company (@nikolamotor)
10/1/18, 3:59 PM
Within 10 years,@nikolamotor will become the largest energy consumer in America. Estimated 820 stations going online by 2028. Each station fills 160 trucks daily- will consume 422 MWh of renewables (422 MWh X 828 stations = 349 GWh per day)
https://twitter.com/nikolamotor/status/1046852215565049857
Spreadsheet at the link.

the basic physics behind hydrogen are way way way way way way way way way way better than lithium ion. why are you so negative on this? (yes it is a ridiculous knock off of Tesla)
big time oops

NeilT

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« Reply #5791 on: October 03, 2018, 11:58:03 AM »
...
Remember this is individual cell level, battery management can be as smart as it likes, it will can do nothing about the way you use the battery, only the way you charge it.
...

Battery management software controls the pack at individual module, even individual cell, level.  It most certainly can control how each small part of pack responds to a driver’s use, including charging (regen) and discharging various cells so as to keep all of them in the most optimal range possible.  A pack at “50%” does not mean every cell is at 50%.  Tesla’s proprietary Battery Management Software can make their performance markedly different from other batteries.

You forget my original premise.

The owner drains the pack to 0% then charges to 30% and uses it.  Over and over and over again.

In that scenario the charger can leave Einstein in the dust, but it will be able to do absolutely nothing about the way the owner is using it.

Even worse is that to supercharge the charger must charge every single cell at a high rate in parallel. Otherwise it won't be able to attain the very high initial charge rates.

Which means that if the owner drains the pack to 0% and charges to 30% over and over and over again, always using a supercharger, then every single cell is being cycled.

One dead battery coming up R.S.N.

Because of the 0% voltage mandated by Tesla, for the pack and the massive oversizing of the pack (as stated in one of the articles or one of the links therein), the pack will probably last 100,000 miles before the 70% threshold is reached, but it certainly won't go much further.  So forget the 8 year warranty for the heavy duty driver who has no idea how to mange a battery pack.

You can't just hold up the shining examples of exemplary battery use in early adopters and say "there, Tesla packs are good for 1m miles".  Especially when Tesla have stuck a 100,000 mile warranty on them.

Face reality, there are downsides and the more people buy Tesla's the worse it will be.  Even worse than that, when government laws mandate that even the biggest idiot Must buy an EV, expect worst scenario battery life to be a common thing.
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NeilT

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5792 on: October 03, 2018, 12:42:55 PM »
Neil - that link was interesting but I think the downsides are quite significant, especially the need to wire most of the autobahns before it becomes really useful.
Other downsides were mentioned in the article:
Quote
The systems need to be installed on fairly long distances in order to supply a significant charge and that can be costly. Also, a connector and deployment system needs to be installed on the trucks using the overhead contact line, but several truck makers have shown interest in the technology.

Another limitation is the speed, but Siemens says that its solution allows the truck to travel at up to 90 km/h (56 mph), which is reasonable.

Oren, I get that, truly. But you also have to understand cross EU traffic.  Germany is smack in the middle of extremely heavy cross EU travel, their Autobahns are full of trucks from as far north as norther Sweden, as far south as Spain and Portugal and, of the 6.9M large trucks in the EU, 2M of them are based in Poland.

A very large proportion of the traffic which will be utilising the German Autobahns will not originate from Germany nor end their journey there.  If Germany wants to get the emissions down for large vehicles, they are going to have to do something and this solution is quite viable.

If Germany provides such an expensive infrastructure, then they can mandate that vehicles which transit through Germany must use it.  Remember that Germany is going to move to ZEV in 2030.  In order not to fall foul of EU regulations on cross EU transit, Germany is going to have to do something.  This is a very useful solution as it means that other states can't point to the very limited capability of EV truck batteries and claim that Germany is being unreasonable.  It also gives them more than a decade to make the other states aware that they are going to do this.

As for the speed?  Trucks are limited to 80km/h on the Autobahn, so I'm wondering why that would even be mentioned.  Yes, for Busses, but this did not mention busses.

As for overtaking?   The number of trucks on the Autobahn, except for Sundays, is so high that trucks are banned from overtaking for the largest part of the day, in some cases 24 hours per day.  I, personally, have driven for 30 miles overtaking nose to tail trucks on the Autobahn; banned from overtaking by the overhead signs. This was deep in the night so it was not a case of in the rush hour.

Eventually, with changes in battery technology, these will become outdated.  But, initially, they will probably be critical.

Cross EU trucking, especially with Polish trucks, is carried out with trucks that have up to 1,500 litres of fuel onboard and two drivers to push the driving limit to 18 hours but with a stop of 1.5 hours at the 9 hour limit.

Granted at 80KM/h we are talking 450 miles, but it comes down to politics in the end and, also, it comes down to battery quality and maintenance.  The last thing you want to do is drain your truck battery completely every time.  Best practise would be no more than 50% before charging.  In that case a truck is then severely limited.  Assuming the worst case with a 44t load, the "optimistic best case" 500 miles from Tesla (summer, no rain, flat land, etc), is going to be down to 400 miles.  If we only want to drain 50%, then we're down to 200 miles.

The German initiative to provide power on the go (we talked about the "extremely long cable" scenario), is the absolute ultimate in EV truck capability.  It means that drivers can drive their full time, not worry about battery drain or health until they leave the Autobahn and, essentially, fully replace the ICE truck.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5793 on: October 03, 2018, 03:43:58 PM »
Oh, my.  Nikola Motors celebrates its plan for its hydrogen fuel cell truck business to become the biggest energy waster user in the U.S. within 10 years. ::)

Nikola Motor Company (@nikolamotor)
10/1/18, 3:59 PM
Within 10 years,@nikolamotor will become the largest energy consumer in America. Estimated 820 stations going online by 2028. Each station fills 160 trucks daily- will consume 422 MWh of renewables (422 MWh X 828 stations = 349 GWh per day)
https://twitter.com/nikolamotor/status/1046852215565049857
Spreadsheet at the link.

the basic physics behind hydrogen are way way way way way way way way way way better than lithium ion. why are you so negative on this? (yes it is a ridiculous knock off of Tesla)

Because the basic physics of energy storage are way more than just lithium ions.  Battery storage/use is three times more efficient than hydrogen storage/use.
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5794 on: October 03, 2018, 05:45:37 PM »
Neil
I think a system similar to the below is what you're calling for



With small, light batteries and intermittent overhead power - similar to the Bombardier trains that Sig had linked to up thread - there's little reason to believe that ETrucks couldn't be viable on the autobahn or any other highway system.

Efficiencies gained by not needing to carry a huge heavy battery, as well as the time saved avoiding stationary charging systems might be substantial.

We still need to move freight by ERail, but this might do until the infrastructure is in place - particularly in N. America where we're basically starting from zero.
Terry
PS - Thanks so much for the information about European trucking.

NeilT

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5795 on: October 03, 2018, 09:01:32 PM »
Neil
I think a system similar to the below is what you're calling for

Terry,

More this one. I don't know how good your German is, I can read about half of it but the technical stuff is fairly self explanatory.  Also the video at the bottom shows how overtaking works.  So they are not stuck in one lane by any means.

It may be a huge undertaking in infrastructure, but it means trucks don't need massive batteries, power is not wasted in charging huge batteries when the power could be used for driving the truck on the road and regenerative braking can be used even when the battery is full by pushing power to other trucks on the eHighway and to the grid if there is enough.

I read a fair bit about regenerative braking and, without very strong controls, can be pretty damaging to the battery.  Controlling that power takes yet more weight and braking down 44 tons is not an easy task.
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TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5796 on: October 04, 2018, 04:33:52 AM »
No German I'm afraid, but yeh, Less battery weight equals heavier loads. Your point re. braking makes perfect sense. I've no doubt that any truck manufactured will have adequate braking, but this system allows far more of the energy to be captured during regenerative braking.
Infrastructure costs are small compared with a dedicated rail system, and costs can be recouped through tolls.


The overhead wiring needn't be continuous, merely enough to keep the battery charged, another infrastructure savings, and a 50 mile battery should save 90% of battery weight while allowing lane changes and runs to warehouses.


Not perfect, but doable and a step in the right direction!
Terry

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5797 on: October 04, 2018, 05:43:16 AM »
Oh, my.  Nikola Motors celebrates its plan for its hydrogen fuel cell truck business to become the biggest energy waster user in the U.S. within 10 years. ::)

Nikola Motor Company (@nikolamotor)
10/1/18, 3:59 PM
Within 10 years,@nikolamotor will become the largest energy consumer in America. Estimated 820 stations going online by 2028. Each station fills 160 trucks daily- will consume 422 MWh of renewables (422 MWh X 828 stations = 349 GWh per day)
https://twitter.com/nikolamotor/status/1046852215565049857
Spreadsheet at the link.

the basic physics behind hydrogen are way way way way way way way way way way better than lithium ion. why are you so negative on this? (yes it is a ridiculous knock off of Tesla)

Because the basic physics of energy storage are way more than just lithium ions.  Battery storage/use is three times more efficient than hydrogen storage/use.

Yes, that is the downside. And for small vehicles it's probably too much of a downside. However, for what I was referring to, trucking, the energy density and charge time are hugely important and are vastly superior for hydrogen vehicles. ALSO, you don't have to mine an outrageous amount of lithium and (and some rarer metals), and manufacture batteries.
big time oops

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5798 on: October 04, 2018, 06:08:00 PM »
”ALSO, you don't have to mine an outrageous amount of lithium and (and some rarer metals), and manufacture batteries.”

A lithium battery is built once and reused.  An even larger amount of hydrogen must continually be manufactured.  (See efficiency numbers in the chart above.)
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5799 on: October 04, 2018, 06:17:45 PM »
Legacy automakers agree they need help to transition to the future.

Toyota, SoftBank team up to develop self-driving car services
Quote
TOKYO, Oct 4 (Reuters) - Toyota Motor Corp and SoftBank Group Corp are teaming up to develop self-driving car services, signalling deepening alliances between top automaker and tech firms as the global race to develop autonomous cars intensifies.

Japan's biggest automaker and its most influential tech firm will jointly develop a platform to operate self-driving vehicles which can be used as mobile shops, hospitals and other services as they envision a future in which fewer people drive their own vehicles.
...
A slew of automotive technology-related deals and discussions have already resulted in myriad pairings between global automakers, ride-hailing companies and major tech firms.

Honda Motor said on Wednesday it would invest $2.75 billion and take a 5.7 percent stake in General Motors Co's Cruise self-driving vehicle unit, in which SoftBank is also an investor.

On the same day, Daimler AG and Renault SA said they may expand their cooperation to batteries, self-driving vehicles and mobility services. ...
https://www.nasdaq.com/article/toyota-softbank-team-up-to-develop-selfdriving-car-services-20181004-00081
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.