Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....

[GoSouthYoungins]

TESLA had better get the cheapo TESLA 3 in the sale rooms pdq. The Hyundai is but the first of a stream of low priced alternatives that will roll out in the next couple of years.

So, if they don't make any significant profit selling the $60k version, how are they going to make money selling the $35k version? There are billions in loans coming due as well as constantly mounting legal fees and fines, to say nothing of the capital required to develop already announced projects.

It's really hard to come to any reasonable conclusion other than that the legacy automakers are going to be the ones producing EVs. Elon is to EV as Tom is to FB.  It's probably a good thing, because Tesla's smash and grab (and lie) approach to car manufacturing is rather flammable dangerous.

[Buddy]

Tesla is NEVER going to compete on “the cheap end” for cars.  There will be several car makers that do .... but Tesla won’t be one of them.  I’m sure Tesla’s upcoming small SUV will sell at a premium to the major manufacturers.  The vehicles I’m interested in seeing from Tesla are its trucks.  Both the semi that has already been introduced AND it’s upcoming pickup truck in a couple years.  I expect their pickup truck to be a “game changer”.  Tesla is like Apple, in that Apple also avoids the “inexpensive side” of the product paradigm.

[GoSouthYoungins]

Tesla is NEVER going to compete on “the cheap end” for cars.  There will be several car makers that do .... but Tesla won’t be one of them.  I’m sure Tesla’s upcoming small SUV will sell at a premium to the major manufacturers.  The vehicles I’m interested in seeing from Tesla are its trucks.  Both the semi that has already been introduced AND it’s upcoming pickup truck in a couple years.  I expect their pickup truck to be a “game changer”.  Tesla is like Apple, in that Apple also avoids the “inexpensive side” of the product paradigm.

I'm excited to see you have the inside scoop. Please share: where are these introduced/upcoming SUVs, Trucks, and Semis going to be built? And with what money?

[Sigmetnow]

At the link below is an analysis written a few years ago about the obstacles each of the big ICE vehicle manufacturers faces in the transition to EVs.  It’s not pretty.

... these automakers must amortize these gas car assets over 10 if not 20 years, moving only gradually away from deriving income from gas car tech. Unable to "shift ... quickly", the incumbents’ "competitive response" will be lackluster at best....

http://tesla.dauger.com/disrupts/incumbentsshackles.html

[Sigmetnow]

Quick Look At New Energy Vehicle Sales In China Through August 2018
https://insideevs.com/new-energy-vehicle-sales-china-cumulative/

Most of the New Energy Vehicles are all-electric

[Sigmetnow]

A more immediate worry for automakers than the transition to EVs is the concern over a “hard Brexit.”

Ford warns against hard Brexit, backs trade deal

Ford Motor Co. (F, -0.34%) on Tuesday became the latest auto maker to caution against Britain crashing out of the EU without a deal and to voice its support for a frictionless U.K.-EU trade agreement.

"For Ford, a hard Brexit is a red line. It could severely damage the U.K.'s competitiveness and result in a significant threat to much of the auto industry," Group Vice President and President of Europe, Middle East and Africa Steven Armstrong said.

The U.S. car maker, which operates three major manufacturing plants in the U.K., said it would take "whatever action is necessary" to protect its business in the event of a hard Brexit. 

Ford also warned that a deal in the vein of Canada's trade agreement with the EU, which removes duties on many products and services but doesn't remove border controls, would be problematic.  "If this was introduced for all U.K.-EU trade, the level of congestion and blockages at the ports would undermine our just-in-time manufacturing system," the company said.

Germany's Bayerische Motoren Werke AG (BMW.XE) has previously said it will close one of its U.K. factories for at least a month after Brexit day to hedge against a no-deal scenario.

Daimler AG's (DAI.XE) Chief Executive Dieter Zetsche has described a hard Brexit as an issue of great concern for the European economy, while Jaguar Land Rover has already cut production at its Castle Bromwich plant due in part to Brexit.

Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. (7201.TO) has also warned the U.K. government that its plan to pull the country out of the EU could seriously disrupt the Japanese car maker's operations in north-east England.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ford-warns-against-hard-brexit-backs-trade-deal-2018-10-16-114854943

[Sigmetnow]

Nice!

Electric car drivers can now 'roam' in the US and Canada on ChargePoint and FLO charging networks

A week after announcing a similar deal in Europe, ChargePoint has unveiled a new “roaming partnership” with FLO to allow electric vehicle drivers to use both charging networks across North America with “a seamless charging experience.”.
...
The agreement, which is a first of its kind in North America, is coming into effect today.

ELECTREK’S TAKE

As I commented with the previous agreement, these deals make a ton of sense.

Dealing with multiple accounts between different charging networks is a pain and this should make the process of jumping from one network to another less painful.

Also, ChargePoint and FLO have two of the biggest EV charging networks in North America. It should set an example for other networks who use the Open Charge Point Interface (OCPI) protocol to get on board with roaming partnerships.

https://electrek.co/2018/10/16/electric-car-drivers-roam-us-canada-chargepoint-flo-charging-networks/ 

[NeilT]

Ford warns against hard Brexit, backs trade deal

Well of course it did because that would be the easiest option for Ford.  Stuff the UK and what is best for the UK, let's make it easy for manufacturers like Ford to keep on trading all over the EU..

Never mind the fact that the UK is such a large import market for vehicles form Mainland Europe that it totally distorts the balance of trade.  If the UK bangs out without a deal Ford gets to expand where PSA, VAG, BMW and Mercedes can't go so easily.

But that's political.  Not really about EV's at all.  Brexit won't change much on the EV landscape in the medium term.

[NeilT]

Tesla is NEVER going to compete on “the cheap end” for cars.

NEVER is a very long day.  I'm sure that Ford was NEVER going to have any kind of luxury car, sports car or anything other than a mainstream workhorse....

[Jim Hunt]

Some interesting news from the eMove360° conference and trade fair in Munich today:

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2018/10/wallbox-announces-the-first-ever-dc-charger-for-the-home/

It's 22 kW, bi-directional and passively cooled. Apparently it's artificial intelligence understands verbal instructions too:

Wallbox is also making it easier to manage electric vehicle charging at home. The company is introducing software that allows spoken commands, and cognitive intelligence that learns about an owner’s charging behaviour and preferences, in order to predict optimum energy balance with home and grid.

This unique two-tier combination of software technologies means that you can speak directly to your home charging system and it will interpret your requirements in the most energy efficient manner. For instance, you can simply say: ‘I need my car fully charged for the morning’ and Wallbox will take care of the rest, with consideration for all other home energy demands during the same period of charging.

The ability for Wallbox software to automatically manage charging in this way adds another smart layer to dynamic load balancing between between vehicle and the home, and vehicles parked in the same area.

[NeilT]

Yeah I can just see it.  Come home, plug the car in, walk out the garage, talking on the phone and say to the other person "suck it up".  Only to find an empty battery in the morning.....

 

After all if an Amazon echo can misinterpret a couples sex talk in bed to mean "record what we are saying and send it to xxx on our contacts", this scenario is not impossible...

[Jim Hunt]

Yeah I can just see it.

You old cynic you!

Surely the Barcelona based ex Apple/Tesla folks couldn't possibly make the same cock ups as the many Bezos minions?

[Jim Hunt]

An image revealing the size of the single phase DC Wallbox:

http://www.v2g.co.uk/2018/10/wallbox-announces-the-first-ever-dc-charger-for-the-home/#comment-65882

[silkman]

"This unique two-tier combination of software technologies means that you can speak directly to your home charging system and it will interpret your requirements in the most energy efficient manner. For instance, you can simply say: ‘I need my car fully charged for the morning’ and Wallbox will take care of the rest, with consideration for all other home energy demands during the same period of charging."


Jim
This is an interesting development. My standard home charging practice is pragmatic. l watch the weather and my SMART meter and if the house starts exporting excess power to the grid from my array I manually start trickle charging via a standard 13 amp plug. This way I use the full output of my array on site whenever I can and I estimate that more than a third of the miles I drive locally are using power generated by the array. This makes me feel good and saves me a modest sum.

Would the Wallbox manage this process for me?

V2G seems a while away yet but it might be good to be prepared.

[NeilT]

You old cynic you!

Surely the Barcelona based ex Apple/Tesla folks couldn't possibly make the same cock ups as the many Bezos minions?

My brother is a testing exec.  He has a phrase for that.

"we enjoyed making that mistake so much we decided to do it all over again"

[Jim Hunt]

V2G seems a while away yet but it might be good to be prepared.

We're preparing, with the aid of another tranche of UK plc funding:

http://www.v2g-evse.com/2018/10/18/v2g-evse-isosec-project-attracts-olev-funding/

As for the DC Wallbox with added AI, thus far I've only seen the pictures and read the press release. As I said in that article, I've been too busy in "on street" mode to head over to Munich in "domestic" mode!

I did talk to their UK Director as well, and I did ask to evaluate one. It seems as though I'll have to wait a while yet!

[Sigmetnow]

Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe. Too bad it’s so difficult and expensive to get it into your fuel tank.

2019 Hyundai Nexo Fuel Cell:  First Drive
https://insideevs.com/2019-hyundai-nexo-fuel-cell-first-drive/amp/

[Sigmetnow]

Wow!  Did not expect this so soon!

Google Maps adds EV charging locations around the world

Google announced that it will add electric vehicle charging stations to Google Maps from several networks around the world.

A quick search for keywords like “EV charging”, “EV charging stations” or any other similar term on Google Maps will display the nearest supported stations.

To help you make a quick decision about which station to use, Google Maps will show you information about the business where the station is located, the types of ports available, charging speeds, and how many ports there are. You’ll also see information about the station from drivers, including photos, ratings, reviews and questions.
 
In addition, businesses that have EV charging stations will now feature a link to information about the chargers.

Google Maps now supports charging stations around the world, including:

Global: Tesla, Chargepoint
US: SemaConnect, EVgo, Blink
UK: Chargemaster, Pod Point
AU & NZ: Chargefox

https://electriccarsreport.com/2018/10/google-maps-adds-ev-charging-locations-around-the-world/

[Neven]

This is an interesting development. My standard home charging practice is pragmatic. l watch the weather and my SMART meter and if the house starts exporting excess power to the grid from my array I manually start trickle charging via a standard 13 amp plug. This way I use the full output of my array on site whenever I can and I estimate that more than a third of the miles I drive locally are using power generated by the array. This makes me feel good and saves me a modest sum.

Would the Wallbox manage this process for me?

V2G seems a while away yet but it might be good to be prepared.

This isn't V2G (yet), but have you heard of the Zappi?



It's actually engineered in the UK, which was a big surprise to me. 

There is very, very little news about the development and production of the EV I have ordered (and hoping to receive two years from now), but they did put this flashy video on YouTube today (with English captions if you press CC):



I can wait for that car for two years, but I can't stand having to spew out more CO2 for two more years. I'm going to Germany next week - en route to my mother in the Netherlands - and will probably buy a second-hand Mitsubishi i-MiEV there. I hope it all works out with the purchasing itself, and then getting the car back to Austria (using a special car train that goes to Vienna, as driving would take far too long). And then, of course, I hope it can provide enough range to get us to Graz and back, twice a week.

But if all goes well, I'll be happy to have taken another small step.

[Jim Hunt]

And then, of course, I hope it can provide enough range to get us to Graz and back, twice a week.

How far from Graz are you Neven, and how hilly is the route?

Kasia suffers from acute range anxiety going up and down the hills of Dartmoor and Bodmin Moor. However recently she skilfully nursed a 40 kWh Nissan e-NV200 home through some foul weather with perhaps 2 indicated miles left in the "tank". It stops reporting when you get below 6 miles left and starts flashing a warning indicator instead!

[Jim Hunt]

FAO @Neven:

https://twitter.com/LollyLaunder/status/1052964840774488067

1MWh of lovely free sun diverted to the car in just over seven months.

[Neven]

How far from Graz are you Neven, and how hilly is the route?

Graz is 60-70 km from here. As for hilly, see the attached image. Graz elevation is approximately 100 metres higher, and the highest hill is a little under 250 metres high.

The official range for the i-MiEV is 150 km, but it's lower in real life, of course (probably around 100 km during winter). The car I want to buy, is relatively new (2017, 15K), so the battery should be good. I'll be in Graz every time for a couple of hours, so if I can charge the car for say 1.5 hours @ 2.3 kW, that should get me an additional 30 km. On the way back, there are a couple of fast-charging options, so I should be okay.

Edit: Just remembered that I've ordered a Type 1/Type 2 charging cable, so should be able to get 3.4 kW in Graz, ie 40-45 km for 1.5 hours of charging. 

[silkman]

Neven, Jim

That's brilliant. Zappi. And it's British too!

This is exactly what I've been looking for. I've spend a lot of the last two years running an evaluation of behind the meter battery storage in a social housing/fuel poverty setting and the batteries we've used (from Powervault) use the same current clamp technique to detect export from a solar array to switch the excess power generated into the battery.

It seems to represent a sensible first step towards a fully integrated V2G system. I'll investigate further.

For the record, the fuel poverty battery study has shown modest savings for tenants that can be optimised by intelligent use - basically taking steps the use the stored energy in the evening or overnight.

The value proposition for the social housing provider is not great though and the integration of networks of household behind to meter batteries to provide grid balancing and control services will be needed to make an ROI.

[Sigmetnow]

You go, Neven! I’m rooting for you.


20% Of Car Buyers In UK Say Next Vehicle Will Be Hybrid / Electric
October 18, 2018

More than one-fifth of UK car buyers say they will switch to a hybrid or electric vehicle when they come to replace their car, according to new research.

A study of more than 20,000 people by AA Cars found that 22 percent said they would dump petrol or diesel for lower-emission alternative fuels, despite the fact that just two percent of motorists currently run a hybrid or electric vehicle (EV).

The used car website also found that searches for second-hand hybrids and EVs are up 470 percent since 2014.

However, the company says the sudden shift in consumer attitudes may be partly down to the uncertainty surrounding diesel.

Fewer than one in eight respondents (12 percent) said they would choose diesel power for their next car, with 56 percent saying government policy has put them off the fuel. Negative media coverage of diesel was also seen as a deterrent by almost six in 10 (58 percent) of those surveyed. ...

https://teslamotorsclub.com/blog/2018/10/18/20-of-car-buyers-in-uk-say-next-vehicle-will-be-hybrid-electric/

[Eco-Author]

Vehicles are a critical part of disaster preparedness and must be saught after for their high functionality!  Recommend standardizing all civil vehicles to the most function, efficient, durable, and flood resistant models with no more than 10 so as to greatly standardize parts and lower costs of better vehicles.  Other KEY considerations will need to be:

1) Electric Cars are wonderful - but should have a mail box sized micro turbine that can burn any fuel for backup when the power grid is out for months i.e. Mexico Beach/North Carolina/etc.

2) All cars should have plug in option AS WELL AS the ability to use your car as an emergency home generator!

3) I'm not overly big on EMP weapons, but would want all vehicle electronics to be able to handle 1859+ level solar flairs. 

4) Vehicles should be as flood proofed as possible!  Endless streets turned into white water rappids these days due to rain bombs makes the need for either cars taht float or at least don't need as much repairs in a flood.  Many military vehicles and helicopters use hidden inflatable rafts taht inflate along the sides when crossing the water.

[oren]

Cars that float would actually be very bad when streets turn to rivers.

[Eco-Author]

Cars that float would actually be very bad when streets turn to rivers.

They get washed/pushed down anyway so why not float and save the occupant?  Surprised no comment on the backup generator or multi-fuel power source?

[Jim Hunt]

For the record, the fuel poverty battery study has shown modest savings for tenants that can be optimised by intelligent use - basically taking steps the use the stored energy in the evening or overnight.

Do you by any chance have a link to that study?

The value proposition for the social housing provider is not great though and the integration of networks of household behind to meter batteries to provide grid balancing and control services will be needed to make an ROI.

Our ISOSEC project includes assessing the feasibility of a "novel business model" for on-street EV charging designed to be attractive to local authorities. That isn't a million miles away from a "social housing provider" with "networks of households".

Perhaps we should talk?!

[silkman]

Jim

I just sent you an email.

[NeilT]

There is a dynamic to the whole EV and autonomous driving which I have been wondering about for a while.

Today a lot of people drive to the train station, pay to park and then take a train to work.  A lot of others, having paid out the cost of the vehicle, balk at the cost of both parking and the train and just drive.

With an autonomous vehicle the possibility will be there to drive to the train station and send the car home. Where, with the correct equipment, it could "dock" and suck solar power during the day.

At night the car can come and pick you up, ordered from your smartphone.  Fully charged.

It is an interesting concept and would allow a greater take up of public transport without having to massively increase the parking spaces available.  Something which is an issue all over the EU, if not in the US.  Southern England is massively populated and space is a real premium.

Of course in the UK that would mean they'd actually have to put more trains on when the only option is to wait for the next train because you can't actually squeeze yourself on the carriage....

I like to look forward to opportunities with new tech, rather than walk backwards looking at where we have been.

There will, one day, be some very interesting opportunities with EV tech.  Something the traditional car companies would have spent 100 years getting around to giving us.

[Sigmetnow]

There is a dynamic to the whole EV and autonomous driving which I have been wondering about for a while.

Today a lot of people drive to the train station, pay to park and then take a train to work.  A lot of others, having paid out the cost of the vehicle, balk at the cost of both parking and the train and just drive.

With an autonomous vehicle the possibility will be there to drive to the train station and send the car home. Where, with the correct equipment, it could "dock" and suck solar power during the day.

At night the car can come and pick you up, ordered from your smartphone.  Fully charged.

It is an interesting concept and would allow a greater take up of public transport without having to massively increase the parking spaces available.  Something which is an issue all over the EU, if not in the US.  Southern England is massively populated and space is a real premium.

Of course in the UK that would mean they'd actually have to put more trains on when the only option is to wait for the next train because you can't actually squeeze yourself on the carriage....

I like to look forward to opportunities with new tech, rather than walk backwards looking at where we have been.

There will, one day, be some very interesting opportunities with EV tech.  Something the traditional car companies would have spent 100 years getting around to giving us.

Yes, the “last mile” conundrum is a serious one. 

But with autonomous vehicles, there would be less need to own one yourself, particularly if the majority of your travel is by mass transit.  Summon a car to take you to the train, then free it to help other people the same way.  Or, make your own car a part of a rideshare network (— it generates income for you) — but it stops in time to charge at a clean energy charging station then pick you up for the ride home.

[oren]

In other words, if taxi rates were 1/10 of what they are now, would most people take a taxi to the train station, and ditch their car?

[Sigmetnow]

VW is building an all-electric vehicle factory for 300,000 cars per year in China
October 20, 2018

VW started construction on its first factory specifically designed for the production of its new MEB platform for all-electric vehicles.  The new factory will be in China and it will have a capacity of 300,000 cars per year. 

Through its SAIC Volkswagen joint-venture, they broke ground at their Anting, Shanghai location.
Dr. Herbert Diess, CEO Volkswagen Group, commented on the milestone:

“By building the first factory specifically designed for MEB production, we are opening a new chapter for the Chinese car industry together with our joint venture partner SAIC VOLKSWAGEN. We are strengthening our activities in China’s fast growing e-mobility market.”

The MEB platform will first go into production in Germany next year, but it will not be at a factory especially designed for the platform.  The first vehicle to be produced at the new plant will be an all-electric SUV in 2020, but there will be a range of different EVs.
...
As we previously reported, VW will start with a capacity of 100,000 electric cars per year for its first plant to go electric in Germany by 2020.

http://lithium-news.com/2018/10/20/vw-is-building-an-all-electric-vehicle-factory-for-300000-cars-per-year-in-china/


Inevitable comparison :  As of the last quarterly conference call, Tesla was targeting production of 1 million EVs in 2020, including in China.

[Sigmetnow]

”The chargers will cost retailers between $300,000 and $400,000 per store on average.”

Porsche Dealers Gear Up For Electric Cars

However, time is scarce as the planned U.S. arrival of the Taycan – Porsche’s first electric sedan – is set for 2020, just over a year from now. And judging by the most recent developments and information coming from the carmaker, Porsche is clearly embracing electrification. And there’s no better sign of that than more than €6 billion ($6.9 billion) the company intends to spend on vehicle electrification by 2022.

“We expect by 2025, roughly 50 percent of our products to be electrified, either with a fully electric engine or with a plug-in hybrid,” Porsche sales chief Detlev von Platen told Automotive News.

And for Porsche dealers in the U.S., that means they’ll have to get busy installing electric vehicle chargers. However, even Porsche Cars North America CEO Klaus Zellmer concedes that this will be a huge financial undertaking for the retailers, who will be faced with a prolonged payoff of the investment. However risky, it may be one of the most financially sound decisions they will ever make. After all, high-performance machines from Porsche are already a highly coveted item, let alone the planned onslaught of potential EVs from the carmaker set to arrive in the future.

https://insideevs.com/porsche-dealers-gear-up-electric-cars/

[Archimid]

Hyundai’s Chief Designer: EVs Shouldn’t Reek of Aerodynamics

https://insideevs.com/evs-reek-of-aerodynamics/

Chris Chapman: Not really. The only thing that EVs bring to the equation is the reduction of the things you’re accustomed to with internal combustion engines. You get into an electric car, hit the power button, and nothing really happens. It might light up and say, “I’m ready.” But you don’t have the visceral engagement of an engine starting up.

When you accelerate, there’s no gearing. It’s connected to the bottom of your foot, so you go instantaneously as fast or as slow as you want according to your foot position. It’s the reduction of classic things associated with ICE. It makes an ICE vehicle feel old and outdated.

When you charge the car, you are at home at night. Every morning you wake up with a full charge. But when you have an ICE car, on Monday or Tuesday you’re fine, but maybe by Wednesday you’re down to a quarter of a tank. Even though you could get to work with no hassle, it’s weighing on your mind all day. I have to go fill up before I come home. It’s these small subtle things associated with ICE that are eliminated.

You remove a lot of the hassle of getting from point A to point B. And maybe you actually feel a little energized and rejuvenated.

[Sigmetnow]

Hyundai’s Chief Designer: EVs Shouldn’t Reek of Aerodynamics

https://insideevs.com/evs-reek-of-aerodynamics/
...

The surprisingly short range of the Jaguar I-PACE has people wondering if Jaguar simply didn’t care about aerodynamics... or had to work with inefficient electric motors or battery management software to get the performance characteristics they wanted.

Jaguar I-Pace Range Just 234 Miles, MPGe Figures Disappoint
https://insideevs.com/jaguar-i-pace-range-just-234-miles/

[Sigmetnow]

"There are so many demands on automakers these days for plug-in hybrids, fully electric vehicles, autonomous vehicles, semi-autonomous vehicles," Lutz told CNBC earlier this month. "There is not enough engineering manpower to go around."

From Ford to Volkswagen, rivals become frenemies* to share the cost and risk of building self-driving cars
- From Ford to Volkswagen, automakers are forming new alliances on new technologies that may take years to get to market and even longer before turning a profit.
- Volkswagen is spending $40 billion to develop autonomous and electrified vehicles through 2022.
- Nobody has that much cash, which is why there are so many new alliances.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/19/automakers-turn-rivals-into-frenemies-to-share-cost-of-new-technology.html

*“Frenemies” are people who become friendly with a historical rival or ‘enemy’

[Sleepy]

This isn't V2G (yet), but have you heard of the Zappi?

It's actually engineered in the UK, which was a big surprise to me. 

I have and I'm still waiting for my Eddie and Harvi to be properly engineered:

Haven't updated on the Eddi & Harvi since April because there was a big issue for me and everyone else out there who's on 3-phase grids. Despite what the manual claims, there's no support for 3-phase systems and further; the feature to set an export margin doesn't work either. So I had to rewire some stuff at home, otherwise the Eddie would increase my electricity consumption...

The reason for updating now is that they (after close to five months of silence and ignoring emails about the timeframe) promises to roll out the firmware update. I'm looking forward to it. But the dark months are here now so I won't have any use of it, until spring.

Apart from that it does work properly and if I ever buy another car again, and the update works as supposed, I will go for the Zappi as well.

[Jim Hunt]

I just sent you an email.

Message received and understood!

[Jim Hunt]

There is a dynamic to the whole EV and autonomous driving which I have been wondering about for a while.

Likewise Neil. Our nascent CAV resources page:

http://www.v2g-evse.com/v2x-resources/v2x-technology-in-a-nutshell/

Anyone for Lego in the BEIS basement?

http://www.v2g.co.uk/2017/10/v2g-in-the-beis-basement/

A record of our trip to a UK plc CAV briefing in a ProPILOT equipped 2018 Nissan LEAF:

[GoSouthYoungins]

Ford making a not very veiled swipe at Tesla.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVlfclOpsK8&feature=youtu.be

[Sigmetnow]

Note:  Apparently “FFV” (Fossil Fuel Vehicle) is the new term for “ICE” vehicle.

Prices For Popular New EVs Are Lower Than ‘Used’ Prices

This seems crazy. We are used to a pattern of mass-produced cars depreciating in value over time by 15–20% or more per year, as they start to accumulate wear and tear and become less efficient and less reliable. Depreciation has long been the greatest cost of ownership on new cars, by far. We are now looking at zero deprecation, or even price increases of 25% or more for the most attractive EVs during the first year, whilst their fossil fuel vehicle (FFV) counterparts lose 20% as soon as they drive off the lot (see the Black Book — Fitch reports for more detail).

On the US average priced $35,000 car, that means buying a FFV will cost you — just on first-year depreciation alone — $15,750 more than buying one of these EVs. Quick takeaway: FFVs are a massive money pit, don’t buy a new one unless you have money to burn! ...

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/10/20/tesla-model-3-is-a-crazy-bargain-new-prices-lower-than-used-prices/

[GoSouthYoungins]

The surprisingly short range of the Jaguar I-PACE has people wondering if Jaguar simply didn’t care about aerodynamics... or had to work with inefficient electric motors or battery management software to get the performance characteristics they wanted.

Jaguar I-Pace Range Just 234 Miles, MPGe Figures Disappoint
https://insideevs.com/jaguar-i-pace-range-just-234-miles/

Maybe they give conservative estimates, under worst case scenarios. Under-promise and over-deliver. (The opposite of Tesla modus operandi.)

[oren]

Price appreciation? Sounds highly unlikely, unless it's assumes original price net of some incentives or tax breaks.

[Sigmetnow]

Price appreciation? Sounds highly unlikely, unless it's assumes original price net of some incentives or tax breaks.

Yes, but....
From the article:

In Norway, the Kona EV is selling used for prices that are 30–33% above the new price, even with thousands of kilometers on the odometer. In Germany, used Kona EV prices are around 25% over cost to buy new (taking the €4,000 grant into account). In the Netherlands, the used markup is around 2% to 4% over new. I wasn’t able to find a large sample of used Kona EVs in Europe outside of these 3 markets (see end of article for my methodology).

The next most impressive EV for price appreciation in Europe may surprise you, given the negative press — the Opel Ampera-E (European sibling of the Chevrolet Bolt). The price bump for used is 10–12% over new in Norway, 15% in Germany, and pretty much holding original value in all other parts of Europe where it is available. It may also surprise you that, even in the US — once we take into account incentives (of $7,500 to $10,000) that effectively reduce the new price — the Bolt is also holding value after a year of use, or even slightly appreciating in price.

The Hyundai Ioniq EV is a highly efficient EV with modest range (124 miles EPA combined rating) but extremely fast charging (around 18 minutes 10–80% on optimal charging stalls). These qualities are widely appreciated in Norway, where 1-year-old used Ioniqs are selling for 25% above their new prices. Even after 2 years (and many thousands of kilometers on the odometer), they trade for 18% price increase over new. In Germany the price increases by a more modest 15% over the first year. In the US, the Ioniq EV is also holding value well, or in some cases slightly appreciating in value used over new. In the Netherlands and UK, the Ioniq’s used prices do depreciate over new, but very gently, with 16% over 2 years, where a FFV equivalent would be in the range of 30–40% depreciation at best.

Research Methodology and Sources:

The only significant vehicle depreciation metric worthy of our attention is the difference in the net outlay price to the new owner, and the price they can sell it for on the used market. To calculate the effective outlay price to the new owner, I use the new list price and deduct the local incentives as outlined in the article. I track trim level and other variants when calculating the price change of new over used. Typical annual mileage of the country is taken into account when sampling used prices over one and two year time frames. The data sampling is steered towards private sales whenever available, and use price guidance (market averages, above, below) are employed to reinforce the data wherever these are indicated on the website.

[oren]

A. IMHO tax and incentive arbitrage is NOT price appreciation. Extreme example: If I buy an EV in the US in CA, get $10,000 in incentives, and then sell the car in Mexico, no wonder it appreciated with this methodology.
B. Is the used price taken for the calculation the actual price of actual used sales?
C. What is the economic reason for someone to buy a used EV for a higher price than the same new EV? Unless it's A above.

Caveat: Silly me haven't read the entire article yet, due to lack of time at the moment, plus a certain skepticism of the claims therein.

[Sigmetnow]

Audi E-tron to be delayed by weeks — or months.  Battery negotiations, and... software problems?

Audi’s E-tron SUV will be delayed due to regulatory approval over a software update
The carmaker says that the vehicle will be delayed by four weeks
October 21, 2018

In September, Audi revealed the final production version of its forthcoming electric SUV, the E-tron, which is due out sometime next year. The wait for the car looks as although it’ll take a little longer: Reuters reports that Audi is delaying the vehicle’s release by four weeks due to a software issue.

According to an Audi spokesperson, the company needs to obtain new “regulatory clearance,” after some of the vehicle’s software was “modified during the development process,” and as a result, vehicle will take a bit longer to reach showrooms. Reuters cites a report from German paper Bild am Sonntag, which say that the vehicle could be delayed by several months. The paper also noted that Audi was working to negotiate with South Korean battery supplier LG Chem, which wants to boost prices because of high demand.

https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2018/10/21/18005782/audis-e-tron-suv-delayed-regulatory-approval-software-update


Audi Puts Price Tag On E-Tron In UK
https://insideevs.com/audi-puts-a-price-tag-on-e-tron-in-uk/
The big battery vehicle will start at £70,805 [~92,300 USD], and will go up against the Tesla Model X and Jaguar I-Pace in the emerging electric SUV market.

[Sigmetnow]

A. IMHO tax and incentive arbitrage is NOT price appreciation. Extreme example: If I buy an EV in the US in CA, get $10,000 in incentives, and then sell the car in Mexico, no wonder it appreciated with this methodology.
B. Is the used price taken for the calculation the actual price of actual used sales?
C. What is the economic reason for someone to buy a used EV for a higher price than the same new EV? Unless it's A above.

Caveat: Silly me haven't read the entire article yet, due to lack of time at the moment, plus a certain skepticism of the claims therein.

C.  Because people want an EV, right now, and new EVs are not available in sufficient supply!  Exceptional demand for EVs — and decreasing demand for FFVs.

B. Yes.

A. Your incentive price argument has merit.  However, as with C., a used EV with or without incentives is more valuable to some people than a new model that is not currently available at any price.

[NeilT]

Note:  Apparently “FFV” (Fossil Fuel Vehicle) is the new term for “ICE” vehicle.

Yeah, right.  So if you have an EV which charges on pure coal generated power it is an EV.  Yes it is an EV, it is also a FFV.  It may be a more efficient FFV but it is a FFV.

This is where marketing allows the denialists in.  Because if you start trying to make that distinction based on the fuel they burn, then it's going to create the possibility of doubt and the last thing we need in the EV space is doubt.

EV's are about more efficient fuel use, about no emissions at the point of use and about being able to change their fuelling from fossil fuel to carbon neutral centrally as well as locally.

This kind of thing leaves my heart in my boots because I'll have to spend the next decade telling people why they are wrong because papers like the daily mail blare the fact that EV's are not clean energy vehicles and that the people are just being lied to.

[Sigmetnow]

Note:  Apparently “FFV” (Fossil Fuel Vehicle) is the new term for “ICE” vehicle.

Yeah, right.  So if you have an EV which charges on pure coal generated power it is an EV.  Yes it is an EV, it is also a FFV.  It may be a more efficient FFV but it is a FFV.

This is where marketing allows the denialists in.  Because if you start trying to make that distinction based on the fuel they burn, then it's going to create the possibility of doubt and the last thing we need in the EV space is doubt.

EV's are about more efficient fuel use, about no emissions at the point of use and about being able to change their fuelling from fossil fuel to carbon neutral centrally as well as locally.

This kind of thing leaves my heart in my boots because I'll have to spend the next decade telling people why they are wrong because papers like the daily mail blare the fact that EV's are not clean energy vehicles and that the people are just being lied to.

The terminology itself will not change anyone’s mind about EVs, and is not meant to.  But I thnk most people will find “FFV” less confusing and easier to use when referring to a vehicle, which uses fuel and not electricity for propulsion. 

It’s like “climate change” and “global warming” — skeptics wil throw the words back at anyone who says something they don’t agree with, as though the term itself proves their point, but the majority of folks understand the broad meaning of what the words encompass, without needing a paragraph of explanation.