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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6000 on: November 10, 2018, 03:39:38 PM »
...
The issue created by the unforgivable lack of local infrastructure is for visitors coming here unaware that we're an EV charging laggard. This extends also to the considerable number of Victorian terraced properties that have to rely on street parking and have no ready access to home charging.

The sooner we get some local fast chargers in the town the better but in the short term I'm able to use my EV efficiently without them.

Unfortunately I can’t find the tweet, but I’ve seen a photo of an EV parked and charging on the side of a back road rounding a steep hill, where a power tap had been installed because there was no driveway!  Where there’s a will, there’s a way. :)
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silkman

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6001 on: November 10, 2018, 07:27:45 PM »
Unfortunately I can’t find the tweet, but I’ve seen a photo of an EV parked and charging on the side of a back road rounding a steep hill, where a power tap had been installed because there was no driveway!  Where there’s a will, there’s a way. :)

There are kerbside solutions out there.

However, it's really difficult to see them working in narrow, parked up, urban residential environments. My daughter lives in a typical, now fashionable, Victorian terraced street in Bristol (UK), a popular location for young professionals and just the right demographic to support the growth in EVs. These  streets and houses weren't built to cater for car owners but everyone now has one or sometimes two and just parking can be a nightmare. Even with massive investment in the appropriate infrastructure, and that's not going to happen any time soon in the UK, it's really difficult to see the lack of kerbside chargers in residential areas not being a drag on the uptake of EVs.

Things are different in town and city centres where longer term onstreet parking used by commuters and visitors would provide a good location for kerbside charging points.

But, as you say, where there's a will there's a way and where there's an unmet need someone will surely find a solution.

In the meantime my daughter has solved the problem the old fashioned way. She walks the mile and a half to work and back every day!


Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6002 on: November 10, 2018, 07:54:23 PM »
Unfortunately I can’t find the tweet, but I’ve seen a photo of an EV parked and charging on the side of a back road rounding a steep hill, where a power tap had been installed because there was no driveway!  Where there’s a will, there’s a way. :)

There are kerbside solutions out there.

However, it's really difficult to see them working in narrow, parked up, urban residential environments. My daughter lives in a typical, now fashionable, Victorian terraced street in Bristol (UK), a popular location for young professionals and just the right demographic to support the growth in EVs. These  streets and houses weren't built to cater for car owners but everyone now has one or sometimes two and just parking can be a nightmare. Even with massive investment in the appropriate infrastructure, and that's not going to happen any time soon in the UK, it's really difficult to see the lack of kerbside chargers in residential areas not being a drag on the uptake of EVs.

Things are different in town and city centres where longer term onstreet parking used by commuters and visitors would provide a good location for kerbside charging points.

But, as you say, where there's a will there's a way and where there's an unmet need someone will surely find a solution.

In the meantime my daughter has solved the problem the old fashioned way. She walks the mile and a half to work and back every day!

People with such circumstances will be the early adopters of ride-share cars.  They’ll love not having to worry about parking, or struggling with a charging solution!
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sedziobs

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6003 on: November 10, 2018, 10:04:56 PM »
My town and its surrounding villages have a total population of about 75,000. There are no public charging points and the nearest one is 10 miles away yet there are increasing numbers of EVs on the roads.

As long as you have the capacity to charge at home then that can comfortably meet your needs and those of your visitors who drive an EV. I have a solar array and charge whenever the sun shines so a significant proportion of my local miles are locally generated.
I have the exact same situation in my town of 70,000.  Range may become an issue in the winter here, where daily highs are below freezing for a few months (and snow can block the solar panels).  But I'll still comfortably manage most trips with home charging alone.

Archimid

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6004 on: November 11, 2018, 03:27:36 AM »
Renault EZ Pro & EZ Ultimo | Fully Charged



A glimpse into the future, if the arctic holds.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6005 on: November 12, 2018, 07:22:32 PM »
Jaguar I-Pace Sales Exceeded 1,000 In October
Electrification becomes the main force of growth for Jaguar.
Quote
Jaguar sold in October 1,200 I-PACE. It’s a new highest result, which brings total deliveries to 2,468.
When we look at Jag’s total volume of 13,764 (up 11.6%) for the month, we note that I-PACE not only accounted for 8.7% share for the brand, but almost the entire increase of sales for Jaguar fall on the I-PACE’s shoulders.
So far it seems that the introduction of I-PACE was a very smart move for Jaguar, which in the near future probably will try to utilize its platform to develop other models.
We believe there should be no problem in exceeding 2,000 units a month sometime soon.
https://insideevs.com/1200-jaguar-i-pace-sold-october/amp/

 
Diess did not give a timeframe:
VW could build up to 50 million electric cars
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-electric-ceo/volkswagen-capable-of-building-50-million-electric-vehicles-ceo-in-automobilwoche-idUSKCN1NH1BJ

 
“Expect our production to begin around the same time as our USA version in 2022-2023.”
Tesla Semi rival Nikola unveils third truck amid release of 11.5k deposit refunds
Quote
Last Monday, the company opened reservations (at zero cost) for a hydrogen-electric truck that’s specifically designed for European markets. Dubbed as the Nikola Tre, the vehicle boasts 500 to 1,000 HP, 6×4 or 6×2 configurations and a range of 500 to 1,200 kilometers depending on options. The truck, which arguably looks the most conventional among Nikola’s offerings, is also created to fit within the current size and length restrictions for the European region.
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-semi-rival-nikola-tre-release-11-billion-reservation-refunds/

Edit:
Maybe not:
Volkswagen CEO: 'We Have Sourced Batteries for 50 Million Electric Cars
Quote
BMW board member Klaus Fröhlich says that batteries will cost €100-150 per kilowatt-hour (kWh), and using the model of VW's smallest confirmed EV battery capacity of 48 kWh, VW's €50 billion would buy just over 10.4 million of VW's smallest batteries, powering barely a fifth of its forecasted EVs, and that's without any customers opting for larger 64 or 111 kWh packs.

A Bloomberg analyst predicts that lithium-ion battery costs will fall 52 percent by 2030, but even accounting for that reduction in costs, VW's €50 billion would be inadequate to purchase more than 21.7 million of its smallest EV batteries. If costs fall as Bloomberg predicts, VW will need at least €115.2 billion for batteries, but if battery prices remain where BMW forecasts they'll be, VW could need €240 billion to cover battery costs for its 50 million EVs.
http://www.thedrive.com/news/24853/volkswagen-ceo-we-have-sourced-batteries-for-50-million-electric-cars
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 08:36:00 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6006 on: November 12, 2018, 07:29:14 PM »
CleanTechnica reports on their recent EV survey.  They note a high degree of brand loyalty for owners of LEAFs, and Volt owners planning to buy a Bolt.
Quote
You’re going to be shocked — the electric car that respondents most frequently said they were most likely to buy next (or for the first time in the case of non-EV drivers) was the Tesla Model 3.

That said, the Tesla Model 3 didn’t account for the majority of answers, demonstrating that the electric car market is broad and goes far beyond the Model 3. Delving into the less desired models is perhaps more interesting than dwelling on the Model 3’s dominance, since they get much less attention but are still cars that many consumers are eager to place in their garages.
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/11/11/45-of-current-electric-car-drivers-plan-to-buy-a-tesla-next-cleantechnica-report/



Very well-written explanation:
Why don't bigger car companies such as Ford start producing electric cars, eliminating Tesla's presence in the emerging market, thus claiming said market share for themselves?
https://www.quora.com/Why-dont-bigger-car-companies-such-as-Ford-start-producing-electric-cars-eliminating-Teslas-presence-in-the-emerging-market-thus-claiming-said-market-share-for-themselves/answer/Bill-MacDonald

Real data on the endangered OEM ICE assets here:
http://tesla.dauger.com/disrupts/incumbentsshackles.html
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Archimid

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6007 on: November 13, 2018, 02:43:27 AM »
I like Jaguar's position. They make high end luxury cars with an attitude. All the best features of an EV, instant torque, 0 fumes, silent power train, home charging (no more gas stations like the unrefined brutes :D) makes Jaguar the perfect manufacturer to switch to EVs.

VW looks like it's getting serious too. I think it will be more difficult for VW than for Jaguar, but they certainly have the resources and knowledge to pull it off. The ID concept vehicles I've seen look like the future. 

The trucks? I'm not convinced about hydrogen fuel cell technology for mobile applications. Seems cumbersome. But who knows.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6008 on: November 13, 2018, 04:24:06 PM »
...
The trucks? I'm not convinced about hydrogen fuel cell technology for mobile applications. Seems cumbersome. But who knows.

If Nikola had their trucks and hydrogen distribution network up and running today, they might have a few good years of business. But the Tesla semi truck will begin production in 2019, and Daimler and others have smaller electric trucks in production now, so by Nikola’s “2022-2023,” investment in hydrogen won’t make sense to most buyers.
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oren

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6009 on: November 13, 2018, 04:37:18 PM »
IMHO Nikola is doomed due to the gamble on hydrogen.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6010 on: November 13, 2018, 05:09:21 PM »
Article with new video from the Gigafactory 1.  While major automakers struggle to attain Tesla’s current battery capabilities, Tesla keeps on improving and lowering their cost.  Sounds like battery cost savings expected in 1Q19 are (part of) what will make the $35,000 base Model 3 profitable.

Tesla is working on new and improved battery cells
https://electrek.co/2018/11/13/tesla-battery-cells-improved/

Edit: deleted suspect graph image.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 02:48:53 AM by Sigmetnow »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6011 on: November 14, 2018, 03:13:38 PM »
GM: “The core business is going to be the core business for a couple of decades to come. There will not be any AV/EV pickups.”

Is GM really that far out of touch, and so far behind in development?  Or is the company lying, because it needs to reassure its traditional customers to keep buying ICE pick-up trucks (for now)? 

Electric pickup trucks are not in GM's plans for the next couple decades, says exec
https://electrek.co/2018/11/12/electric-pickup-truck-gm/

Elon Musk's Tesla pickup truck will likely have few competitors from legacy auto
https://www.teslarati.com/elon-musk-tesla-pickup-truck-few-electric-powered-competitors/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6012 on: November 14, 2018, 03:25:07 PM »
Big news for Europe.  This also opens the way for other EVs to use Tesla Superchargers in the future, once they have the right software/authorization.

Tesla confirms Model 3 is getting a CCS plug in Europe, adapter coming for Model S and Model X
Quote
After years of speculation, Tesla finally confirmed today that Model 3 is getting a CCS Combo 2 plug in Europe and an adapter is coming for Model S and Model X.

With growing third-party fast-charging infrastructure in Europe, electric vehicle owners are starting to have many options.

Tesla owners have access to those networks on top of Tesla’s own Supercharger networks, but they had to use an expensive CHAdeMO adapter, which has its own limitations and isn’t yet compatible with Model 3.

In order to give buyers access to those networks, Tesla had been rumored to be considering adding a CCS connector, which is the standard used for fast-charging at most of the new stations, on the Model 3 for the European market.

We reported last week on a new Tesla Model 3 with a different plug being spotted ahead of the European launch.

Today, Tesla confirmed that the Model 3 sold for the European market will come with a CCS Combo 2 charge port and released official renderings. Furthermore, Tesla said that they will start retrofitting European Supercharger stations with “dual charge cables” to both support the existing connector and CCS standard. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/11/14/tesla-model-3-ccs-2-plug-europe-adapter-model-s-model-x/
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oren

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6013 on: November 14, 2018, 04:44:17 PM »
Big news for Europe.  This also opens the way for other EVs to use Tesla Superchargers in the future, once they have the right software/authorization.

Tesla confirms Model 3 is getting a CCS plug in Europe, adapter coming for Model S and Model X
This is important news. The inter-operability of charging networks is a must-have for faster adoption of EVs. At some point the competitor charging systems would have surpassed Tesla's closed system, at least in aggregate, and forcing consumers to choose between the standards was not a good bet for the future of Tesla.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6014 on: November 14, 2018, 05:16:51 PM »
Big news for Europe.  This also opens the way for other EVs to use Tesla Superchargers in the future, once they have the right software/authorization.

Tesla confirms Model 3 is getting a CCS plug in Europe, adapter coming for Model S and Model X
This is important news. The inter-operability of charging networks is a must-have for faster adoption of EVs. At some point the competitor charging systems would have surpassed Tesla's closed system, at least in aggregate, and forcing consumers to choose between the standards was not a good bet for the future of Tesla.

I’m not the first to think that within five to ten years, Tesla will be a major power supplier/utility, soon rivaling GE or oil companies.  Not hard to imagine big, Tesla-branded EV charging plazas, replacing gas stations (and back-of-the-mall parking lot chargers) of yore!
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6015 on: November 14, 2018, 05:23:45 PM »
Here’s a twitter thread on EV Growth, rolled up into one handy page:

Quote
1/ The EV sales growth take-off point is now arriving and everyone is going to have to revise their projections (again). IEA and EIA are of course the farthest behind. But even BNEF may have to revise. China is of course leading the way, but edge-economy California also roaring.
...
6/The EIA in their latest outlook forecasts a 4th straight year of no growth in US gasoline demand. US sales of ICE vehicles peaked in 2016, falling last year, this year, and are expected to fall next year as well.
...
12/ The oil industry, like the auto industry, will follow in the footsteps of $GE which, despite all the data, cost curves, and trends being quite available and quite accessible, stubbornly refused to absorb what was coming in global electrification. ...
https://threader.app/thread/1050408954898001920
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6016 on: November 16, 2018, 09:46:47 PM »
After many years of concept vehicles and vaporous promises, the move is one of the first concrete steps from the automaker to signal that it might actually be serious about producing electric vehicles once and for all.

Volkswagen Converting Zwickau Automotive Plant To Produce Electric Vehicles
...a move that it believes is the first of its kind in the world for a [working] major car factory
Quote
The fact that VW is celebrating the start of the conversion of one of its factories as the first in the world highlights just how far ahead of the competition Tesla is. Legacy auto manufacturers are only just beginning to explore what is needed to secure battery production capacity and to explore, for the first time, what it would take to produce electric vehicles at scale. Welcome to the game, finally, and we will keep an eye out for your SEC-approved #BatteryCapacitySecured tweets over the coming weeks and months!
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/11/16/volkswagen-converting-zwickau-automotive-plant-to-produce-electric-vehicles/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6017 on: November 16, 2018, 10:25:51 PM »
...
Diess did not give a timeframe:
VW could build up to 50 million electric cars
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-electric-ceo/volkswagen-capable-of-building-50-million-electric-vehicles-ceo-in-automobilwoche-idUSKCN1NH1BJ
...
Edit:
Maybe not:
Volkswagen CEO: 'We Have Sourced Batteries for 50 Million Electric Cars [but...]
Quote
BMW board member Klaus Fröhlich says that batteries will cost €100-150 per kilowatt-hour (kWh), and using the model of VW's smallest confirmed EV battery capacity of 48 kWh, VW's €50 billion would buy just over 10.4 million of VW's smallest batteries, powering barely a fifth of its forecasted EVs, and that's without any customers opting for larger 64 or 111 kWh packs.

A Bloomberg analyst predicts that lithium-ion battery costs will fall 52 percent by 2030, but even accounting for that reduction in costs, VW's €50 billion would be inadequate to purchase more than 21.7 million of its smallest EV batteries. If costs fall as Bloomberg predicts, VW will need at least €115.2 billion for batteries, but if battery prices remain where BMW forecasts they'll be, VW could need €240 billion to cover battery costs for its 50 million EVs.
http://www.thedrive.com/news/24853/volkswagen-ceo-we-have-sourced-batteries-for-50-million-electric-cars

:o ::) ;D :-\

Everyone:  Yeah, that sounded too good to be true....

VW now says it could build up to 15 million electric cars, not 50
reuters.com · 11/16/2018, 8:29:56 AM
Quote
Volkswagen could build up to 15 million electric cars over several years on its new electric vehicle production platform, the company said on Friday, adding that its Chief Executive Herbert Diess had misspoken in an interview on Monday.

Automotive News on Monday quoted Diess as saying that VW could build 50 million electric vehicles globally across its brands, beginning in 2020, and had battery sourcing agreements for them.

A spokesman on Friday said that the figure, which referred to a theoretical long-term goal for the MEB electric car manufacturing platform, was overstated.

"Diess meant to say 15 million, not 50 million cars," the spokesman said.
https://pub.webull.com/us/news-html/78ecebda33f149a2ab19a6275dcbda99.html


At the link: VW claims in 2013 that it will be a world leader in e-mobility by 2018
Vladimir Grinshpun (@VGrinshpun)
11/16/18, 12:33 PM
Well, given their insistence in 2013 on being global EV leaders by 2018, I would say it's all good.
It is within the VW definition of margin of error.
media.vw.com/en-us/releases…
https://twitter.com/vgrinshpun/status/1063485223625723904

« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 10:34:20 PM by Sigmetnow »
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oren

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6018 on: November 16, 2018, 11:48:42 PM »
Maybe their strategy to tackle EVs begins with adopting Elon Time...  ;D ::)

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6019 on: November 17, 2018, 12:25:23 AM »
Sigmetnow and Oren: I'm blaming you for my laughing out loud, then guffawing.
 :)
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6020 on: November 17, 2018, 04:39:46 PM »
Hyundai Will Satisfy U.S. Hunger For Kona Electric
Quote
Will accept orders from every state

Early reviews of the Hyundai Kona Electric have been quite positive and we expect there is quite a bit of pent-up demand out there for an all-electric crossover that marries over 250 miles of range with a reasonable price tag. With the initial U.S. sales plan consisting of supplying only California dealers, with the eventual addition of stores in other ZEV states, there has been, however, some amount of disappointment in the car’s suspected unobtainium status. Turns out, that worry about availability may be premature.

According to Wards Auto, the U.S. plan now is to start delivering cars in California before the end of the year, followed by the other ZEV states within two short weeks. For would-be customers in other areas, there is hope as well. The automaker says it will also ship the Kona Electric to dealers in non-ZEV states if they have a “sold order.” ...
https://insideevs.com/hyundai-kona-electric-u-s-demand/



Nio deploys 18 battery swap stations covering 2,000+ km expressway in China
Quote
No one in the electric vehicle space has managed to make battery swapping work yet, but Nio is trying big time with 18 new battery swap stations covering a 2,000+ km expressway in China.

Several companies tried and failed at battery swapping. Tesla had a battery swap system that they seemingly abandoned and Better Place went bankrupt.

But you could say Tesla didn’t try that hard and has instead bet on fast-charging and Better Place was a little too ahead of its time.

Now Nio is trying to make battery swapping a reality.

We reported earlier this month about them building a battery swap station right next to a Tesla Supercharger – highlighting the growing options that EV drivers are getting.

It was only the beginning because today the startup unveiled 18 NIO battery swap stations located in 14 service areas along the G4 Expressway linking Shijiazhuang, Zhengzhou, Wuhan, Changsha, Guangzhou and other major cities. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/11/15/nio-battery-swap-stations-network/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6021 on: November 17, 2018, 04:51:39 PM »
Maybe their strategy to tackle EVs begins with adopting Elon Time...  ;D ::)

“Elon Time” does start with the adoption of impossibly difficult goals, so you may be right.  ;)
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6022 on: November 18, 2018, 04:57:36 AM »
The legendary Potholer54 picks apart and turns to shreds a piece by Bjorn Lomborg about the carbon footprint of electric cars :



Interesting note here : The video by Bjorn Lomborg is produced by Prager University.

It turns out the that Prager University is not a university at all, but instead a Youtube channel funded by the Wilks brothers. If you don't know these guys, they are like the Koch brothers, rich because of fossil fuels, and fully committed to spend their money on people that deny climate science :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_and_Farris_Wilks

Can't make this stuff up.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6023 on: November 18, 2018, 04:24:15 PM »
What's Happening With Apple's Mysterious Car Project?
Quote
Apple CEO Tim Cook... told Bloomberg this in 2017:

Clearly, one purpose of autonomous systems is self-driving cars -- there are others. And we sort of see it as the mother of all AI projects. ... It's probably one of the most difficult AI projects to work on. So autonomy is something that is incredibly exciting for us. But we'll see where it takes us -- we're not really saying from a product point of view what we'll do. It's a core technology that we view as very important.

Of course, Cook didn't want to say precisely what Apple will use its autonomous tech for, but some more details were inadvertently revealed recently when a former Apple employee was caught stealing plans for a self-driving car circuit board from Apple earlier this year. ...
https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/11/17/whats-happening-with-apples-mysterious-car-project.aspx
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6024 on: November 18, 2018, 06:25:18 PM »
The legendary Potholer54 picks apart and turns to shreds a piece by Bjorn Lomborg a
Bjorn Lomborg - no more needs to be said
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6025 on: November 19, 2018, 05:03:51 PM »
20,000 BAIC EC-Series Sold In Another Record China Electric Car Sales Month

While overall car sales fell in October in China, PEV (plug in vehicle) sales kept their momentum - reaching close to 120,000 new registrations in a single month - and on target for 1 million in 2018 as a whole (the global PEV market just reached a million in 2017).  Year-on-year growth rate of 85%. Foreign car market share of PEV's in China is only 6%! As the headline says, BAIC sold 20,000 of just one model in October (getting on for 30,000 of all PEV models in October). With this rate of growth, it will be the likes of BAIC and BYD rather than Tesla that will become the volume leaders (with all the efficiencies and learning curves that that leads to).

This is where the real PEV car centre is, with the Chinese government very fully driven to keep it going. If energy independence in the USA is measured by how many new shale oil wells are drilled, in China its by how much they can reduce oil usage (or at least the growth in oil usage), and therefore imports that have to travel through the Straits of Malacca. The PEV S-curve seems to be in full flow in China.

As a massive majority of car sales in China are not replacements (the opposite of the US), probably 80%+ of new car sales will have to be PEVs, plus increasing efficiencies in ICE cars, before the growth in oil usage tends toward zero. There also seems to be a big drive in the light-truck area - perhaps developing into heavy-trucks (will have to research that). Of course, China has a growing fully-electrified rail network as well.

Market share of PEV's was 5.8% in October, and 3.8% year to date. Will probably be higher by December. I personally doubted the Chinese governments very aggressive directive for PEV market share, but they certainly seem to be making it happen.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/11/18/20000-baic-ec-series-sold-in-another-record-china-electric-car-sales-month/

rboyd

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6026 on: November 19, 2018, 05:17:48 PM »
Chinese electric-car makers charge ahead, powered by state

"The momentum lies with Chinese manufacturers, which have a running start from years of state subsidies and protection. Foreign automakers are racing to catch up, as it becomes clearer that the experiment in transitioning from combustion engines will happen here, in the world's largest car market."

"Both companies have taken the lead in China's electric vehicle market. New-energy passenger vehicle sales from January to October jumped 91% on the year to 726,000 units. Of that amount, BYD sold about 163,000 cars for a share topping 20%, while BAW [BAIC] sold about 114,000 vehicles.

More than the environment, however, Chinese officials have their sights set on fostering domestic industry. New-energy vehicles are one of 10 core fields in President Xi Jinping's "Made in China 2025" strategy to modernize the country's industry. As the rules of the auto industry change, China sees a chance to assume leadership from American, European and Japanese rivals that dominated the combustion engine age."

"Chinese battery makers have grown rapidly as a result. They control more than 60% of global market share thanks to companies like CATL, which has emerged as the world leader."

This is why the U.S. is getting so aggressive with China, as China is moving from a technology-dependent follower to a leader in important future areas - including ones where it can leapfrog other countries with old technology dependent industries (e.g. ICE car manufacturers). PEVs, batteries, wind turbines, solar cells and nuclear generation - all being very successfully supported by the Chinese government. Also a lot of support for self-driving cars.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Electric-cars-in-China/Chinese-electric-car-makers-charge-ahead-powered-by-state

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6027 on: November 19, 2018, 10:10:55 PM »
Hyundai Sold Record Number Of Plug-In Electric Cars In October 2018
And most of them were pure electric models
Quote
October was big for Hyundai, which set several new records.

In October, total sales of plug-in cars – reported by Hyundai – stands at an all-time high of 7,139, which is 191% more than a year ago.

The plug-in car share out of overall volume increased to a record 4.3%! The biggest splash comes from Kona Electric....

Sales by model:

Kona Electric – 4,617 (2,473 in South Korea and 2,144 exported)
IONIQ Electric – 1,718
IONIQ Plug-In – 794
Sonata Plug-In – 10
Total cumulative sales of Kona Electric now exceed 12,000.
https://insideevs.com/hyundai-sold-record-plug-in-cars/



Zero-emission rules mean fewer electric car choices for most Canadians
Quote
Unless the federal government moves ahead with a promised national ZEV mandate of its own quickly — something critics think is unlikely — green car advocates fear the provincial schemes will merely suck electric vehicles out of other parts of the Canadian market in order to beef up sales in B.C. and Quebec — without increasing the total national supply.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/zero-emission-canada-1.4906767



I think they mean “at least half as sexy.” ;)  But yes, it takes years to design and mass-produce a svelte EV from scratch. 


'When will you build an electric car that is only half as sexy as a Tesla?', German minister says to automakers
Quote
Germany’s Minister of Economic Affairs Peter Altmaier is apparently not satisfied with the electrification effort of German automakers. He reportedly asked the top brass of Germany’s auto industry ‘When will you build an electric car that is only half as sexy as a Tesla?’
https://electrek.co/2018/11/19/electric-car-half-sexy-tesla-german-automakers/
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Sleepy

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« Reply #6028 on: November 19, 2018, 10:27:07 PM »
At some point I think  I will buy this charger as it measures how much goes out to the grid and automatically puts that amount into the car battery (I need it to be three phase though, instead of just one): Zappi

Since I remembered seeing this post Neven, both Zappi and Eddi should now handle three-phase grids with this update (and the Harvi along with three CT-sensors...). I've yet not tested it since I received it today.

Lifting this thread since it's close to my own issue now. I've retired my solar hot water panels after the latest recent failure and temporarily placed PV-panels on top of them (at a 51° angle which is spot on this time of year).

I've ordered this unit together with a "harvi": *ttp://myenergi.uk/products/#eddi
A bit expensive but specs looks good and if someone in here has any real world experience of it, I'm all ears.

What a lucky coincidence, today on November 19, I recieved the hub and should be able to update my Eddie so that it should be able to work properly on a three-phase grid. Adding the updated manual for the Eddie and also the update pdf's sent out for both the Eddie (available FW version 2.027) and the Zappi (available FW version 2.000).
The unfortunate part is that I've got at least two dark months ahead.

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rboyd

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6029 on: November 20, 2018, 01:56:13 AM »
Electric trucks may deliver the goods for China's ambitions

Seems that China is pretty focused on electric trucks too:

"Last year, the number of electric light-duty commercial vehicles - both all-electric and plug-in hybrids - sold in China was roughly 200,000, about 6 per cent of the market for trucks under six tonnes."

https://www.straitstimes.com/business/electric-trucks-may-deliver-the-goods-for-chinas-ambitions




Sigmetnow

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« Reply #6030 on: November 20, 2018, 07:42:34 PM »
Elon Musk pushed the idea of Tesla mobile service vans, being cheaper for the company, and more convenient for the customer, than a service center visit.  But the big vans are ICE-powered, which is embarrassing, so Tesla designed a smaller version that fit inside a Model S sedan for less complex jobs.  Still, Musk would love to do an electric van (if Tesla had the time/resources) and is even open to working with Daimler/Mercedes to do it.

Quote
<< Shame that’s not a Tesla VAN. Because we REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY need a good tough as nails electric trades van. We burn fuel like crazy.
Elon Musk:  Maybe interesting to work with Daimler/Mercedes on an electric Sprinter. That’s a great van. We will inquire.
Lot on our plate, so it’s either get van gliders (no battery, powertrain or compute tech) from Daimler & produce sooner or do all & produce later. Not a big difference to total vehicles produced either way. Priority list is Model Y, solar roof tiles, pickup, semi, Roadster.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1064624811794526208

[But wouldn’t you need to change a lot on that van to make it electric, like you had to do with the original Roadster?]
Elon Musk: No, it’s got enough load capacity & volume to carry the battery pack & our current pack energy density is about double that of original Roadster. Still, it would probably only save about 30% to 40% of effort, all things considered.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1064638194434469888

Elon Musk says he's open to working with Mercedes-Benz on an electric van
https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-open-to-working-with-mercedes-benz-on-electric-van-2018-11



Edit: more vans....

FedEX is getting a fleet of 1,000 electric vans from Chanje EV startup
Quote
Earlier this year, they partnered with Ryder to service their vehicles. Ryder also ordered a large fleet of 500 all-electric vans to build an electric rental fleet.
Now it looks like they will need to expand that fleet because out of the 1,000 V8100 electric delivery vehicles that FedEX is getting, 100 will be directly purchased from the company and 900 will be leased from Ryder. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/11/20/fedex-fleet-electric-vans-chanje/
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 08:17:02 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6031 on: November 20, 2018, 09:40:14 PM »
Inside Rivian’s plan to challenge Detroit and electrify the American truck & SUV
Quote
Rather than spending hundreds of millions of dollars on building their own factory, Rivian has decided to acquire an existing automotive factory. Rivian purchased a former Mitsubishi factory and all of its contents in January 2017 for $16M. The purchase price represents just 1% of the $1.6B investment (in 2018 dollars) Mitsubishi and Chrysler made building the facility in 1988. The plant houses stamping presses, paint lines, body assembly, general assembly, and a few other sub-assemblies. Even in its heyday, the factory never reached its peak production capacity, which is thought to be above 300,000 vehicles per year.
https://www.teslarati.com/rivian-electrify-american-truck-suv-market-challenges-detroit/
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #6032 on: November 22, 2018, 05:43:21 PM »
British Columbia, Canada

Provincial government puts B.C. on path to 100% zero-emission vehicle sales by 2040
Quote
VICTORIA – In a move aimed at removing a major source of air pollution and climate change, the provincial government has put British Columbia on a path to require the sale of all new light-duty cars and trucks to be zero-emission vehicles (ZEVs) by the year 2040.

Premier John Horgan has announced the government, in partnership with the B.C. Green caucus, will introduce legislation next spring to phase in targets for the sale of zero-emission vehicles (ZEVs). This legislation will set targets of 10% ZEV sales by 2025, 30% by 2030, and 100% by 2040, while government will take additional steps to make ZEVs more affordable.

“There’s nothing more important than taking care of the place we call home,” said Premier Horgan. “As a province, we need to work together to put B.C. on a path that powers our future with clean, renewable energy and reduces air pollution.”
https://archive.news.gov.bc.ca/releases/news_releases_2017-2021/2018PREM0082-002226.htm
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #6033 on: November 22, 2018, 06:39:07 PM »
Nissan Motor's board voted on Thursday to oust Carlos Ghosn from his post as chairman following his shock arrest this week on charges including personal use of company money and under-reporting of his earnings for years.

Nissan board to meet for ousting Ghosn as future of alliance in focus
Quote
The Franco-Japanese alliance, enlarged in 2016 to include Japan’s Mitsubishi Motors, has been rattled to its core by Ghosn’s arrest in Japan on Monday, with the 64-year-old group chairman and industry star accused of financial misconduct.

Ghosn had shaped the alliance and was pushing for a deeper tie-up including potentially a full Renault-Nissan merger at the French government’s urging, despite strong reservations at the Japanese firm.

Amid growing uncertainty over the future of the alliance, Japan’s industry minister and France’s finance minister are due to meet in Paris on Thursday to seek ways to stabilise it. ...
https://www.reuters.com/article/nissan-ghosn/corrected-nissan-board-to-meet-for-ousting-ghosn-as-future-of-alliance-in-focus-idUSL4N1XW5ID
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6034 on: November 22, 2018, 06:52:21 PM »
Australia’s struggles with EV charging.

The new electric vehicle highway is a welcome gear shift, but other countries are still streets ahead
Quote
... smart charging strategies aimed at preventing the peak load period for electric car charging from overlapping with the residential peak.

The issue is even more acute when using domestic renewable energy, because of the “duck curve” – which shows the timing imbalance between peak demand and peak renewable energy production. As the name suggests, the graph is shaped like a duck.

The duck curve can be smoothed out with the help of power storage technologies such as batteries, and by behavioural change on the part of consumers (such as temporal load shifting).

THE RIGHT NETWORK
Our model can also help electric vehicle owners find a nearby charging station with the least estimated waiting time and cost, in real time. This also opens up a new avenue for the electric utilities, which can work with charging service providers to adjust the prices at different charging locations so as to to distribute the load evenly across the charging network, and reduce waiting times into the bargain.
https://www.universal-sci.com/headlines/2018/11/2/the-new-electric-vehicle-highway-is-a-welcome-gear-shift-but-other-countries-are-still-streets-ahead
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Neven

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« Reply #6035 on: November 22, 2018, 08:38:07 PM »
Some good news and some bad news from Sono Motors today (a start-up that wants to produce solar cars and start delivering them next year): They've announced their collaboration with Continental, who will deliver the electric drive unit. This is a serious partner, the world’s second largest automotive supplier. So, that's a good sign that the car will actually be built.

The bad news is that they've announced a new price for the battery: 9600 euros. It used to be 4000 euros, so an increase of 140%. And the battery will be 35 kWh, not the 40-45 kWh reservation holders were hoping for. Still, these 35 kWh should still provide a range of 250 kilometers (255 kilometers under the WLTP standard) per charge, as Sono Motors has promised. The battery will consist of 51Ah-PHEV-II cells, which feature the best energy density on the market, as well as reduced cobalt content, according to Sono Motors.

The car will now cost almost 26 thousand euros (barring anymore price increases), which is getting close to regular EVs like the Ioniq. Hopefully it doesn't get more expensive, or I may have to reconsider, which will also depend on how Sono Motors communicates henceforward.
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TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6036 on: November 22, 2018, 10:10:36 PM »
Neven


Wintry weather is upon us here in Southern Ontario. When things cool off in your neck of the woods could you keep us informed as to how your newly acquired EV responds.


I've read that the lithium batteries have fewer problems than lead/acid batteries on the discharge side, but that charging below 0C will cause permanent damage. Not a problem for those charging in a heated garage, (although it kind of defeats the purpose), but those using exposed charging stations along the highways might face problems.


Here in Canada many keep an old "beater" pickup for the coldest months while saving their dream cars from the heavily salted slush. Keeping an EV heated may prove difficult in Canadian winters, (VW at one time offered petroleum burning heaters in their vans), and I wonder if the heater cuts heavily into your E-mileage.


Stay Warm!
Terry

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6037 on: November 22, 2018, 11:34:02 PM »
Neven


Wintry weather is upon us here in Southern Ontario. When things cool off in your neck of the woods could you keep us informed as to how your newly acquired EV responds.


I've read that the lithium batteries have fewer problems than lead/acid batteries on the discharge side, but that charging below 0C will cause permanent damage. Not a problem for those charging in a heated garage, (although it kind of defeats the purpose), but those using exposed charging stations along the highways might face problems.


Here in Canada many keep an old "beater" pickup for the coldest months while saving their dream cars from the heavily salted slush. Keeping an EV heated may prove difficult in Canadian winters, (VW at one time offered petroleum burning heaters in their vans), and I wonder if the heater cuts heavily into your E-mileage.


Stay Warm!
Terry

charging itself is producing so much heat (see mobile phones) that it has to be held in check, hence whatever the temps of the surrounding are, the temps directly around that pack will be above zero for sure, considering temps in the Latitudes we're talking here and as long as there is a garage, heated or not, no winds.

under normal circumstances charging in the wild would probably be an exception.

so the problem you're describing would occur with very very low temps and some wind chill involved. the moment the air is still the charging process will heat the immediate environment and provide a several mm thick layer of sufficiently warm temps, especially inside the closes compartment where batteries are usually stored in a car.

silkman

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6038 on: November 23, 2018, 09:44:57 AM »
Keeping an EV heated may prove difficult in Canadian winters, (VW at one time offered petroleum burning heaters in their vans), and I wonder if the heater cuts heavily into your E-mileage.


Stay Warm!
Terry
While I'm unlikely to encounter Canadian conditions up here in NW England, heating is an issue as the temperature drops. In my i3 it's easy enough to stay cosy but it's clearly at the expense of range so it's not a problem with the majority of local miles but becomes a bit more challenging over longer distances.

The most effective gadget I have is a heated seat that is amazingly efficient and has no noticeable impact on range. As a result I'm getting used to driving longer distances with a warm backside and cold feet.

The only thing I miss about an ICE is the ready availability of the waste heat resulting from its inefficiency so chilly toes are a constant reminder of why I'm in an EV! A price worth paying I think.

Sigmetnow

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« Reply #6039 on: November 23, 2018, 02:11:16 PM »
...
 Keeping an EV heated may prove difficult in Canadian winters, (VW at one time offered petroleum burning heaters in their vans), and I wonder if the heater cuts heavily into your E-mileage.

Stay Warm!
Terry

Garaged or not, if an EV is plugged in to charge overnight, batteries with thermal control will use a trickle charge as needed to keep the battery at a proper temperature while maintaining the requested charge level.  Although there is a mileage drop during operation in cold weather, most EVs offer heated seats and steering wheel, which are very effective at keeping one comfortable without wasting a lot of energy trying to heat the entire cabin.  And passengers in the back seat may enjoy toasty toes courtesy of the warm battery pack. ;)


 ::)
“Say it is very cold outside. How long should you run the motor of an electric car while staying still to let it warm up before driving?”
- Quora
https://www.quora.com/Say-it-is-very-cold-outside-How-long-should-you-run-the-motor-of-an-electric-car-while-staying-still-to-let-it-warm-up-before-driving
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #6040 on: November 23, 2018, 02:23:27 PM »
More on the Sono Motors drive train announcement that Neven mentioned:
Continental to build electric drive unit for Sono Motors’ electric car
https://electriccarsreport.com/2018/11/continental-to-build-electric-drive-unit-for-sono-motors-electric-car/



Porsche is touting the wonders of the drivetrain for its Taycan EV:

Porsche says Taycan will be relatively light thanks 'high power density' and electric motors
Quote
”Theoretically, one would have to pack only a correspondingly large battery in the vehicle to get a lot of range. But that would not be typical Porsche, if only because of the excessive weight. Instead, we use very light electric motors. In addition, we can achieve a range of 500 kilometers via the high power density and high efficiency of the electric drive. This results in low power consumption, so we can use smaller and lighter batteries.”
...
Porsche executives have previously insisted that the Taycan will be able to go long distances at high-speed, like traveling on the German autobahn, or to complete a few laps on the race track.

During the interview, Weckbach also reinforced the clear Porsche marketing push about the Taycan “being a real Porsche despite being electric” – something the automaker has been saying every chance it got.

The vehicle is expected to have a range of over 250 miles and the most impressive feature is arguably the 800-volt system. That is double the voltage of most EVs and should allow a charge rate of up to 350 kW, which could charge the car up to 80% in only 15 minutes.

Porsche is expected to unveil the production version of the vehicle next year for a launch toward the end of 2019.
https://electrek.co/2018/11/23/porsche-taycan-relatively-light-electric-motors-high-power-density/



Fully Electric Car Sales Up 56% In Germany — #CleanTechnica Electric Car Sales Report
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/11/22/fully-electric-car-sales-up-56-in-germany-cleantechnica-electric-car-sales-report/
Image below.
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #6041 on: November 23, 2018, 05:56:09 PM »
We really need that exponential EV adoption “S” curve to continue.

Europe’s last combustion car must be sold within 15 years – analysis
Quote
Higher fuel taxes and road charges, coupled with car-sharing and shifting motorists to other forms of transport, could be deployed to reduce the number of cars, tackle congestion and make cities more livable. But even an ambitious package of demand reduction measures will only deliver, at most, a 28% reduction in emissions in 2050. The heavy lifting in terms of emissions reductions requires a shift to zero-emission vehicles by 2035 at the very latest. Any remaining combustion engine cars still on the road in 2050 will need to be banned.

Thomas Earl, data analyst at T&E, said: “Shifting people from cars onto shared transport and onto bikes is an important part of the equation, but to achieve zero carbon personal mobility in 2050 requires zero emission cars. Both electric and hydrogen cars can get us to zero but hydrogen is much less efficient.”

The analysis concludes it will be nearly impossible to produce sufficient low-carbon liquid fuels cost-effectively to power all Europe’s cars. Advanced biofuels are likely to supply just 3.5% of transport fuels in 2030 and growth after this will be limited by available land and feedstock. Synthetic fuels will be expensive and inefficient, requiring huge quantities of clean electricity – equivalent to almost 70% of today’s total European electricity production – to power all cars in 2050. In contrast, a hydrogen car fleet would require 38%, a battery-electric fleet just 15%. There will also not be nearly enough biomethane available to be an option for cars, while biomethane will also be required to replace fossil gas for industry and heating.

The current proposals for car CO2 reductions in 2025 and 2030 are far below the 60% needed to be on track to achieve the Paris climate goals, the report finds. Around a third of new cars sold will need to be plug-ins to achieve the EU’s 2030 car CO2 target but, by 2035, all new cars will need to be zero emissions if we are to decarbonise the fleet. ...
https://www.transportenvironment.org/press/europe’s-last-combustion-car-must-be-sold-within-15-years-–-analysis
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« Reply #6042 on: November 24, 2018, 04:03:49 PM »
German court rules Volkswagen must reimburse owner full price of car
Quote
(Reuters) - A German court has ruled Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE) must reimburse the owner of a Golf the full original price of his vehicle bought in 2012, dealing a blow to the carmaker as the legal battles over its emissions cheating scandal drag on.

Volkswagen (VW) said it believed the court in Augsburg had misapplied the law and that it would appeal the ruling at the higher regional court.

The Augsburg civil court ruled on Nov. 14th that VW had acted immorally by deliberately installing emissions-cheating software to increase sales and profits, a spokesman for the court said on Friday.

The court ordered VW to repay the owner the original price of almost 30,000 euros ($34,200), according to a copy of the ruling. ...
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKCN1NS0NG



Leap Motor, Another Chinese EV startup raises an incredible amount of money
Quote
China is leaping over most other markets when it comes to the electrification of transport and money is flowing to finance several up and coming EV startups.  Now another Chinese EV startup, Leap Motor, has announced an important financing round.

In the last few years, Chinese startups like NIO, Faraday Future, Xpeng, BYTON, and many others have raised billions to bring electric vehicles to market.  Now, Leap Motor is adding a few hundred million dollars to the pool with a new round of financing.

Hangzhou-based electric vehicle maker announced this week that it has raised RMB 2 billion ($290 million) for its ongoing Series A round led by Shanghai Electric Group, according to Deal Asia. The company had already raised about $62 million from Sequoia Capital’s Chinese division earlier this year.  They say that they will use the funds to “complete vehicle development, EV battery, electric motor and control as well as to boost its marketing activities.”

While Leap Motor’s story sounds a lot like many other Chinese EV startups so far, it differentiates itself with the first vehicle it plans to bring to market: a relatively affordable electric coupe. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/11/23/leap-motor-chinese-ev-startup-raises-fund/
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« Reply #6043 on: November 24, 2018, 06:33:39 PM »
German court bans diesel vehicles on key autobahn
For the first time, one of Germany's famed motorways has been affected by a diesel ban. German cities have instituted or are bracing for bans on older diesel cars after violating European clean air laws for years.
Quote
A German court ruled on Thursday that authorities must ban older diesel vehicles from parts of the western German cities of Essen and Gelsenkirchen and a busy motorway in the country's industrial heartland.
Several German cities, including Hamburg, Frankfurt and Stuttgart, have put in place or are bracing for bans on older diesel vehicles that emit higher amounts of pollutants than later models. The bans follow a ruling by Germany's top administrative court in February that held such bans legal.

The latest order comes just days after a court imposed diesel bans in certain areas of the western cities of Cologne and Bonn.

It's the first time that one of the country's famed autobahn highways has been affected. The court banned older diesel cars on sections of the heavily used A40 motorway, which runs through the Ruhr industrial region. The restrictions are expected to come into effect from July next year. ...
https://amp.dw.com/en/german-court-bans-diesel-vehicles-on-key-autobahn/a-46317300



“Park and stride” schemes aim to keep vehicles away from schools

London schools tackle pollution with face masks and air purifiers
Quote
Schools across the UK are taking ever more drastic steps in an effort to mitigate the effects of air pollution on their pupils’ health.

Amid growing concern about the long-term implications of toxic air on young people’s development, the Guardian has found one London school is raising money for face masks for its pupils, while a growing number are installing air purifiers in classrooms and thousands more are trying to deter parents from using their cars on the school run.

The measures follow a flurry of new studies that show the extent of the damage being done to young people’s health from respiratory problems such as asthma.

Dr Ian Mudway, air pollution expert at Kings College London, said there was an urgent need to improve air quality, especially in congested cities, to protect the wellbeing of future generations. ...
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/24/london-schools-tackle-pollution-with-face-masks-and-air-purifiers
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TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6044 on: November 24, 2018, 07:56:27 PM »
...
 Keeping an EV heated may prove difficult in Canadian winters, (VW at one time offered petroleum burning heaters in their vans), and I wonder if the heater cuts heavily into your E-mileage.

Stay Warm!
Terry

Garaged or not, if an EV is plugged in to charge overnight, batteries with thermal control will use a trickle charge as needed to keep the battery at a proper temperature while maintaining the requested charge level.  Although there is a mileage drop during operation in cold weather, most EVs offer heated seats and steering wheel, which are very effective at keeping one comfortable without wasting a lot of energy trying to heat the entire cabin.  And passengers in the back seat may enjoy toasty toes courtesy of the warm battery pack. ;)


 ::)
“Say it is very cold outside. How long should you run the motor of an electric car while staying still to let it warm up before driving?”
- Quora
https://www.quora.com/Say-it-is-very-cold-outside-How-long-should-you-run-the-motor-of-an-electric-car-while-staying-still-to-let-it-warm-up-before-driving


Tesla's mod 3s are delivered without battery heaters.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=m3+battery+heater&rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA729CA729&oq=m3+battery+heater&aqs=chrome..69i57.10991j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

While "trickle charging" may help if you're at home in your garage, this technique would plug up any available "Super Charger" units subject to the chilling breezes found by Canada's highways for ~1/3 of the year.

According to Chemistry Views " conventional lithium-ion cells with identical battery materials that are charged at 0 °C only sustained 50 cycles before losing 20 % capacity."

https://www.chemistryviews.org/details/news/11078549/Fast_Charging_of_Lithium-Ion_Batteries_at_Cold_Temperatures.html

and the Battery University site simply states that for lithium batteries, "

No charge permitted below freezing."

Much of Canada is colder than much of the 48 States, but the coldest night I ever spent was at a truck stop on I-80 called Little America, and the heaviest snowfall this Canadian experienced was just outside Lake Tahoe.

Terry
edit/ sorry about the formatting.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6045 on: November 24, 2018, 08:52:42 PM »
Tesla's mod 3s are delivered without battery heaters.

“Battery heaters” are not required on Teslas, because the batteries are built with an integrated thermal management system.  The “sub-zero package” for the S/X adds things like heated rear seats for those that don’t have them, heated windshield wipers, etc. 

If a Tesla is parked and not plugged in, it will use its battery power as needed to keep the battery temperature within a safe range.  (You can hear fans running like crazy when they are parked in summer heat.)  Driving or charging the car also generates heat; the thermal system uses waste heat from the drivetrain to warm up the battery as well. 

Supercharging warms the battery.  After the battery is charged, it must be unplugged or “idle fees” will start to accrue (in crowded stations).  One would not use a supercharger simply to keep the battery warm.  Park it anywhere with a decent level of charge in it and it will manage itself just fine.  At home, most folks plug the car in for charging when they park and don’t bother unplugging it until they are ready to drive off — thus, the car won’t drain its battery keeping warm. (Or, pre-heating the car at your command, just before you get in.)

The popularity of Teslas in Norway should allay any fears that they are unfit for winter climes!
https://transportevolved.com/2013/12/27/winter-driving-in-norway-in-a-tesla-model-s-no-problem/
« Last Edit: November 24, 2018, 09:07:21 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Neven

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6046 on: November 24, 2018, 10:43:02 PM »
Neven

Wintry weather is upon us here in Southern Ontario. When things cool off in your neck of the woods could you keep us informed as to how your newly acquired EV responds.

It was slightly cold, around freezing, and very wet, last week. Of course, I noticed a reduction in range, and charging also took longer. It may freeze after this weekend.

Quote
I've read that the lithium batteries have fewer problems than lead/acid batteries on the discharge side, but that charging below 0C will cause permanent damage.

It doesn't say anything about that in the i-MiEV manual. It says that certain 'phenomenons' may occur from -15 °C or lower, and some are described, like 'can't be charged to 100%', or not charged at all under -25 °C. But nothing about permanent damage.

In the 10 years I've been living here, I've seen -15 °C only about once or twice per year, on average.

Quote
Here in Canada many keep an old "beater" pickup for the coldest months while saving their dream cars from the heavily salted slush. Keeping an EV heated may prove difficult in Canadian winters, (VW at one time offered petroleum burning heaters in their vans),

We still have our Opel Combo CNG, for when we can't drive the i-MiEV (like now, because there are some minor problems with the paperwork). Or when we go on a holiday. The i-MiEV is too small for that, but it's really a fantastic car. I love driving/gliding it, and even though it's small, it feels really spacious on the inside. In fact, it's so narrow that I can fit it into the part of the carport that is actually meant to be occupied by bikes.

It's no problem at all to drive to Graz and then charge there for 1-3 hours. In fact, I can even fast charge it somewhere (and save money) for half an hour, and drive home with a little bit of heating on.

I've looked into what is best for the battery, and the rule of thumb is that it doesn't like to be too empty or too full, and so my strategy is to keep it between 20% and 80% as much as I can. In theory, I could drive to Graz and back, but then I have to charge it to 100% and have only 5-10% left when coming home. Maybe this will improve in summer, once I put on some good, efficient tires.

Quote
and I wonder if the heater cuts heavily into your E-mileage.

Yes, the heater sucks up a lot of energy, so, just like silkman, I try to dress warm and just bear it for 45 minutes. Or at least, that's what I'm going to do, as soon as things get really cold.

I'm not a fan of the seat heating, though! It feels as if all the heat creeps up my ass!  ;D ;)

My biggest problem so far, just like my mom's Honda Civic back in the 90s, is condensation on the windows.
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6047 on: November 24, 2018, 11:12:44 PM »
Yes, it should be more widely shared that electric vehicles under-perform in the cold. We basically couldn't use our early model electric car (Zenn) in the winter here in Minnesota. I assume they have improved, but the basic physics of the thing mean they will always lose some performance in cold weather, it seems to me.
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TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6048 on: November 25, 2018, 01:57:29 AM »
Thanks


The 20%-80% range fits with what I've come across, but I've found more than one site warning of battery damage when charging at below freezing temperatures.
Wili's solution of keeping the EV as a seasonal ride might make sense in most of Canada.


FWIW My very low mileage VW is having what may be sensor problems that effect the driver's door as the temperatures drop here.
Terry

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6049 on: November 25, 2018, 04:26:38 AM »
Yes, it should be more widely shared that electric vehicles under-perform in the cold. We basically couldn't use our early model electric car (Zenn) in the winter here in Minnesota. I assume they have improved, but the basic physics of the thing mean they will always lose some performance in cold weather, it seems to me.

This is my ninth Minnesota winter driving an EV.
Range definitely takes a hit.  The average loss for our cars has been 30%, max range loss of 50%.  Our ICE vehicles lost 20% efficiency on average.

It is basic physics.  Cold air is denser, there is more rolling resistance, and for EVs, battery power is used to heat the car.

Charging at sub freezing temps has never damaged any EV I am aware of.  Most EVs (All?) either have temperature management, or trickle charge the batteries until they warm up enough to take a charge at normal rates.