Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....  (Read 652183 times)

Lurk

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 440
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 63
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6700 on: May 13, 2019, 05:02:36 AM »
Anecdotal, but another fascinating suggestion of how quickly things are changing in Norway.


It's because of the Laws and the tax/fees situation. iow it's solely because of the actions, policy and law-making of the Norway Govt and the Govt is what it is because of The Enlightened Rational Idealistic People of Norway.

It's got nothing to do with Elon Musk or Tesla per se - they and the tech didn't drive this change in Norway - the people of Norway did while Tesla is adapting to those changes as are all the other MV manufacturers.

Now if the USA wants to be like China and Norway then the People need to grow up and get real. There's no chance of that happening anytime soon unfortunately.

Quote
May 06, 2019
It was always destined to be like that. In years to come it will be the same everywhere. Govt regulation and taxes drives not only positive change but innovation as well.  "The Market" is a joke, a lie.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,438.msg198102.html#msg198102
While you're here, please take this opportunity to visit our Sponsor https://www.tesla.com and play an active role in saving the planet. Join the Tesla Family today!

Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1140
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 113
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6701 on: May 13, 2019, 05:26:03 AM »
Norway's total emissions are down 3,5% since 1990.
https://www.ssb.no/en/natur-og-miljo/statistikker/nrmiljo/aar

The dent is made by EV's when checking the other nuimbers there, but far from enough of course.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

Lurk

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 440
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 63
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6702 on: May 13, 2019, 06:25:27 AM »
Norway's total emissions are down 3,5% since 1990.
https://www.ssb.no/en/natur-og-miljo/statistikker/nrmiljo/aar

The dent is made by EV's when checking the other nuimbers there, but far from enough of course.

Yes. When it comes to being "enlightened" the devil is in the details. I wonder how much GHGs they imported from India and China which doesn't get counted. Compartively however Norway is still ahead of the pack in some respects - eg EV take up due to Govt laws and incentives not being replicated elsewhere as yet.

Imagine if every nation applied all the "best practice" responses universally? It would still not be enough!

In the early days they attacked FF electricity generation and made some progress, but not enough. Then they attacked FF transportation most recently ICE cars with EV cars, but still not enough. The dial has been bent imperceptibly as the total GHG emissions continue to increase from these sectors.

One day they might attack the major source of GHG emissions sitting somewhere near 50% all up .... being Industry, Mining, Cement and Agricultural Land Use .... then again maybe they won't.
While you're here, please take this opportunity to visit our Sponsor https://www.tesla.com and play an active role in saving the planet. Join the Tesla Family today!

Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1140
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 113
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6703 on: May 13, 2019, 07:06:22 AM »
The link posted above shows reported emissions from Norwegian economic activity, no matter where it happens in the world and includes emissions from Norwegian shipping and air transport firms outside of Norway. I think those are the best official numbers available. And that's a western nation with a fully clean grid, even better than Sweden.

Norways energy consumption is rising, clearly visible in the other set with reported domestic emissions:
https://www.ssb.no/en/natur-og-miljo/statistikker/klimagassn/aar-endelige
This is what's included in that one (unfortunately not avialble in English):
https://www.ssb.no/natur-og-miljo/artikler-og-publikasjoner/hvilke-utslipp-dekkes-av-statistikkene

However accurate those numbers are, they are far away from those 10-15% cuts required (per year). Not much to be fascinated about.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 07:11:56 AM by Sleepy »
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6561
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 337
  • Likes Given: 239
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6704 on: May 13, 2019, 12:17:11 PM »
By the time I released this comment, several more were posted already:

So just WHO is going to do this banning and dictating how companies spend their money?  Are you suggesting a single monarch who has final say over this with worldwide authority?

Nothing describes my frustration with this forum better than this nicely packaged paragraph.

Your proposal to an alternative of status quo manufacturing conglomerates controlled by immensely powerful billionaires...  is feudalism. How rotten has your brain become? That this the only thing you can envision. With all your creativity and intellect, the only alternative to capitalism is Primitive Accumulation by authoritarian monarchs. Not even for a moment could you muster the thought of democratic control.

What you're seeing here is nothing new. It's the success of neoliberal/capitalist propaganda  poisoning people's brains into thinking that there is no alternative to capitalism. I recommend reading Mark Fischer's book Capital Realism to help deprogram yourself:

Quote
Capitalist Realism: Is There No Alternative? is a 2009 book by British theorist Mark Fisher, published by Zero Books. It explores Fisher's concept of "capitalist realism," which he takes to describe "the widespread sense that not only is capitalism the only viable political and economic system, but also that it is now impossible even to imagine a coherent alternative to it."

The book investigates what Fisher describes as the widespread effects of neoliberal ideology on popular culture, work, education, and mental health in contemporary society. Capitalist Realism was an unexpected success, and has since influenced a range of writers.

This forum is an amazing case study of what Fisher describes. The posters here are of an older demographic that have been thoroughly indoctrinated from Cold War propaganda. They are obsessed with market based solutions to climate change. Capitalism Is The Only Way.

We already have proven solutions to the problem of transportation: Public transit, car sharing cooperatives, bicycling, and better urban planning. But those ideas are either ignored, claimed as idealistic, or even disparaged. Having democratic control of our infrastructure is impossible. So let's focus on something more "realistic":

Instead of car-sharing cooperatives, let's just keep building more and more cars, but make them electric

Instead of subways, let's build tunnels that can transport our electric cars (what the fuck?)

Instead of buses, trams, and bicycles, let's build autonomous cars and cross our fingers the technology works before climate change kills us all.

Instead of better urban planning, let's build more suburbs with bigger garages so I can fit my model S, 3, X, and Y, so I can be S3XY
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

oren

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3489
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 420
  • Likes Given: 913
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6705 on: May 13, 2019, 12:40:53 PM »
What this debate fails to capture is that there is some sort democratic control, and sadly I feel that this is what the voters want. Not that they wouldn't want better public transit and less pollution, but it's always fourth and sixth and tenth priority items behind "defense", "the economy", "abortions and gays", and more of that stuff.
Politicians are afraid to raise the taxes on gasoline, and/or a general carbon tax, because they are afraid they will not get voted. So what do voters want?
Politicians are afraid to ban ICE cars. To mandate only renewable electricity. Ban or triple the cost of flying. Not just because of hidden corporate interests and immensely powerful billionaires. But also to a large degree because of the voters.

Coming back to the cars topic, I would love for governments large and small to finally do something serious about cleaning up transportation. I am fine with limiting choices and banning ICE cars, removing private car lanes to make way for public transport, increasing taxes on gas, using lots of the public budget for railroads and metros, and whatever not. But I look around me and these things aren't happening, certainly not fast enough.
In my stupid country public transport is shut off during the sabbath, despite 80%+ of the population expressing a desire for it to change. But when they vote, they vote for "security", "terrorism", "corruption", "left vs. right" and other soundbites. So everybody needs a car for the weekend, and once they have the car they naturally tend to use it for commuting as well.
So my plan is to get me an EV. Will it solve the world's problems? It won't. But at least my local travels (when I use the car and not the bus) will be much cleaner. And I am happy that private corporations are developing these EVs even when governments don't do much to help them (besides carbon credits which many folks on this forum dislike, and some tax breaks, and some rarities like Norway). Maybe when governments see the popularity of EVs, and the availability of EVs, they might be braver and legislate further changes.

Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1140
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 113
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: No Cars, no cars and no more cars. And no trucks, and no....
« Reply #6706 on: May 13, 2019, 02:01:14 PM »
Sorry for the edited subject ^.

Why have so many been hell-bent over the years to make this a topic about cars and EV's? This topic was never intended to be about cars, or EV's (especially not Tesla) the answer for this topic was intended to be: 'no cars'.

Which reminded me of Norway again.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

gerontocrat

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4690
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 629
  • Likes Given: 12
Re: No Cars, no cars and no more cars. And no trucks, and no....
« Reply #6707 on: May 13, 2019, 02:22:50 PM »
Sorry for the edited subject ^.

Why have so many been hell-bent over the years to make this a topic about cars and EV's? This topic was never intended to be about cars, or EV's (especially not Tesla) the answer for this topic was intended to be: 'no cars'.

Which reminded me of Norway again.
Don't be sorry. I wrote something like this once and sent it into the wall of indifference. Splat.

How to be a prophet in the wilderness, cursed and derided. Suggest that sustainability means having less things, including less personal transport, flights to holiday resorts a long way away et al.

Because the New Technology, AI, blah blah blah will fix everything - won't it?
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 14049
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 195
  • Likes Given: 116
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6708 on: May 13, 2019, 02:41:32 PM »
Perhaps what is needed, to reduce these repeated arguments, is a thread for those who prefer to discuss The World Without Cars, separate from a thread for discussing what is actually happening with cars today.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

zizek

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 378
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 26
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6709 on: May 13, 2019, 03:05:59 PM »
Oren, this is exactly what Fischer is talking about. That you believe there is no alternative to our perverted “democratic system”.  Politicians will always vote in the interests of themselves and the lobbyist they serve. That’s it. We can never change it. The best we can do is take whatever scraps politicians throw at us, and the only real choice we have is participating in a “green market”

You have poor grasp of history. No movement was successful by being tepid and cowardly.

The successes of the civil rights movement wasn’t achieved by black people supporting black capitalists. It was from Black Panthers organizing, marching in the streets, educating their brothers, and paying with their blood and sacrifice to gain some agency in America

The labour movement in the early 20th century wasn’t won by “good politicians” or workers collaborating with less-abusive capitalists. Labour saw its success with massive sacrifice from organizing workers, many paying with their lives.

Women’s movements. Gay rights. Black Lives Matter. Bolivarian Revolution. The October Revolution. Cuba. Vietnam. China. The list goes on and on.  None of these popular movements gained traction by being defeatist like yourself. You would think you would get your head out of the sand, considering the stakes of climate change are greater than any other event in human history – the complete destruction of our society and the extinction of most of life on Earth.



In the context of vehicles. Why buy an EV when you can support a car-sharing cooperative (and most of them have EVs!!!). The small sacrifice of not having your own vehicle has big benefits – You’re a part of a democratic transportation movement that reduces emissions, reduces the number of cars built, and reduces the stress on our infrastructure. And you save money!  How hard was that? If there isn’t a car-sharing cooperative in your municipality, help start one!

Rob Dekker was applauded for purchasing a $90,000 sports car. If Rob spent that sort of money, and spent less time posting about how much he wants to bomb Syria, he could easily start a car sharing cooperative in his city/town. And imagine what we could accomplish with the billions of subsidies went to low-emission transportation infrastructure instead of building a car that Rob Dekker can brag about at dinner parties.

Successful initiatives like car and bicycle cooperatives, environmental non-profits, sustainability infrastructure working groups/organisations get paltry sums of money through grants. You’re talking tens of thousands of dollars. Even with the tiny amount of resources provided, they make HUUUUGE differences in their community.  Elon Musk gets billions of dollars for building MORE cars and to fly around in his private jet.  Why the hell is this forum obsessed with fellating him while the people on the ground making a real difference are fucking ghosts.



Sleepy

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1140
  • Retired, again...
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 113
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6710 on: May 13, 2019, 03:38:11 PM »
There's a SpaceX thread in the rest section, start a thread there?
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
-
Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 14049
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 195
  • Likes Given: 116
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6711 on: May 13, 2019, 03:43:53 PM »
Aviation, Bikes, and Ships threads are all under Policy and Solutions.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

zizek

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 378
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 26
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6712 on: May 13, 2019, 03:47:14 PM »
Perhaps what is needed, to reduce these repeated arguments, is a thread for those who prefer to discuss The World Without Cars, separate from a thread for discussing what is actually happening with cars today.
That's a great idea. Make more threads that only cater to you.

Shared Humanity

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3363
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 139
  • Likes Given: 19
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6713 on: May 13, 2019, 04:27:51 PM »
Perhaps what is needed, to reduce these repeated arguments, is a thread for those who prefer to discuss The World Without Cars, separate from a thread for discussing what is actually happening with cars today.

This thread is the perfect place to discuss both. When I post that the number of ICE vehicles worldwide is increasing by perhaps 80 million per year, this is not me cheering for more cars. I am simply putting factual numbers out there to inform the discussion.

Discussing the need for no cars fits in this thread as well. The latest IPCC report stated that we need to reduce CO2 emissions by 40% by 2030 and be carbon neutral by 2050. We need to recognize that we (humanity) will have to deal with the fact of less transportation consumption in general if we are to achieve this.

For those here who will emphatically state that no one will give up their current mobility, (cars, planes etc.) this is a perfectly acceptable position to take as long as you are willing to accept that we will blow past 2C and could very well find ourselves at a 4C warmer world by 2100.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 14049
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 195
  • Likes Given: 116
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6714 on: May 13, 2019, 04:34:21 PM »
Perhaps what is needed, to reduce these repeated arguments, is a thread for those who prefer to discuss The World Without Cars, separate from a thread for discussing what is actually happening with cars today.

This thread is the perfect place to discuss both. When I post that the number of ICE vehicles worldwide is increasing by perhaps 80 million per year, this is not me cheering for more cars. I am simply putting factual numbers out there to inform the discussion.

Discussing the need for no cars fits in this thread as well. The latest IPCC report stated that we need to reduce CO2 emissions by 40% by 2030 and be carbon neutral by 2050. We need to recognize that we (humanity) will have to deal with the fact of less transportation consumption in general if we are to achieve this.

For those here who will emphatically state that no one will give up their current mobility, (cars, planes etc.) this is a perfectly acceptable position to take as long as you are willing to accept that we will blow past 2C and could very well find ourselves at a 4C warmer world by 2100.

If everyone were as polite as you, that might work. ;)

But why aren’t the “No Cars Now” folks celebrating when I post information suggesting the imminent demise of major automobile manufacturers?
Bankruptcy! Millions of lost jobs!  People who won’t be able to afford a car to get to jobs they no longer have! 
Isn’t this exactly what they are wishing for?
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Shared Humanity

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3363
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 139
  • Likes Given: 19
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6715 on: May 13, 2019, 04:40:23 PM »
Fossil fuels have driven the dramatic increase in transport of all types across the planet. In doing this, it has provided a physical closeness unrecognizable to humans of just a century ago. We can now travel to all parts of the planet in less than a day.

Going local with all types of transport (people and goods) will be a key component of any effort to become carbon free. The days of China manufacturing 50% of all the socks consumed on the planet are numbered. If not, we are royally screwed but at least we all will have cheap socks.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 14049
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 195
  • Likes Given: 116
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6716 on: May 13, 2019, 04:46:38 PM »
Fossil fuels have driven the dramatic increase in transport of all types across the planet. In doing this, it has provided a physical closeness unrecognizable to humans of just a century ago. We can now travel to all parts of the planet in less than a day.

Going local with all types of transport (people and goods) will be a key component of any effort to become carbon free. The days of China manufacturing 50% of all the socks consumed on the planet are numbered. If not, we are royally screwed but at least we all will have cheap socks.

But that would mean a sock manufacturer in every town, which is not exactly efficient, either.  More than just transport has to evolve.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Shared Humanity

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3363
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 139
  • Likes Given: 19
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6717 on: May 13, 2019, 04:47:14 PM »
Perhaps what is needed, to reduce these repeated arguments, is a thread for those who prefer to discuss The World Without Cars, separate from a thread for discussing what is actually happening with cars today.

This thread is the perfect place to discuss both. When I post that the number of ICE vehicles worldwide is increasing by perhaps 80 million per year, this is not me cheering for more cars. I am simply putting factual numbers out there to inform the discussion.

Discussing the need for no cars fits in this thread as well. The latest IPCC report stated that we need to reduce CO2 emissions by 40% by 2030 and be carbon neutral by 2050. We need to recognize that we (humanity) will have to deal with the fact of less transportation consumption in general if we are to achieve this.

For those here who will emphatically state that no one will give up their current mobility, (cars, planes etc.) this is a perfectly acceptable position to take as long as you are willing to accept that we will blow past 2C and could very well find ourselves at a 4C warmer world by 2100.

If everyone were as polite as you, that might work. ;)

But why aren’t the “No Cars Now” folks celebrating when I post information suggesting the imminent demise of major automobile manufacturers?
Bankruptcy! Millions of lost jobs!  People who won’t be able to afford a car to get to jobs they no longer have! 
Isn’t this exactly what they are wishing for?

I think this is because most of us have not thought through the implications of what is needed and the impacts that it will have on our own lives. We have discussions that thus suffer from a profound cognitive dissonance. I include myself in this.

We talk about the need for people to walk more and ride bicycles but don't consider how this single simple idea has profound implications about the world around us. You could walk to the corner grocery in the 1930's in America. Try riding your bike to Costco to grocery shop.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 14049
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 195
  • Likes Given: 116
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6718 on: May 13, 2019, 04:49:42 PM »
Exactly!
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Zythryn

  • ASIF Lurker
  • Posts: 62
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6719 on: May 13, 2019, 04:49:49 PM »
So just WHO is going to do this banning and dictating how companies spend their money?  Are you suggesting a single monarch who has final say over this with worldwide authority?

Nothing describes my frustration with this forum better than this nicely packaged paragraph.

Your proposal to an alternative of status quo manufacturing conglomerates controlled by immensely powerful billionaires...  is feudalism. How rotten has your brain become? ...

Nice ad hominem attack.
You took my reply out of context.  It was suggested we outlaw companies ability to do certain things, and I wanted to know how that was to be done.
I am wide open to an idea other than capitalism, but have yet to see suggestions as to what to do.
I’ll look up that book, thanks for the reference.

Someone commented on Norway leading the way.  I would agree.  However, Norway’s economic system has a Capitalistic component.
I would suggest education in critical thinking is a stronger way forward than some “I wave my hands and a miracle occurs” suggestions.
Capitalism itself isn’t the problem, people acting ONLY in their self interest with no thought to the consequences is the problem.  And until that is changed, no economic system is going to work.

While capitalism isn’t the best system, it is coming up with solutions, just not fast enough.
Mass transit and bike lanes are expanding in many areas.
Cleaner methods of power generation are expanding.

Meanwhile, the shift to an entirely new economic system is still waiting to happen.  It will be great when it finally arrives, but in the meantime I am going to keep doing what I have the power to do under the current system.

Shared Humanity

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3363
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 139
  • Likes Given: 19
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6720 on: May 13, 2019, 05:19:30 PM »
While capitalism isn’t the best system, it is coming up with solutions, just not fast enough.
Mass transit and bike lanes are expanding in many areas.

Ya think?

There are 1.2 billion cars on the road, almost all internal combustion, and we are going to put another 100 million on the road this year, again almost all internal combustion. Good luck with those bike lanes saving the planet.

Shared Humanity

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3363
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 139
  • Likes Given: 19
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6721 on: May 13, 2019, 05:21:37 PM »
Meanwhile, the shift to an entirely new economic system is still waiting to happen.  It will be great when it finally arrives, but in the meantime I am going to keep doing what I have the power to do under the current system.

The very definition of BAU which will be the death of us all.

magnamentis

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2070
    • View Profile
    • Philosophy Ethics Numerology Mikrocirkulation Vaskular Therapie Gesundheit Blut Gesundheit Schmerzen Multiple Sklerose Diabetes Immunsystem Fibromyalgia Modular Mobile Computing iOS Software OSX Android Custom Rom Rooted
  • Liked: 89
  • Likes Given: 109
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6722 on: May 13, 2019, 05:30:52 PM »
who followed my posts on cars and teslas specifically know that i predicted a soon to come shift away from tesla being the leader of the industry, neither in terms of tech nor in terms of sales.

the process has started as per the month of may, not surprisingly in germany as the producer of top quality competing vehicles that shall soon let U.S. produced units as far behind as it has happened
on the ICE cars market over decades, once they got a foot on the ground.

we're not there yet but in clearly goes into that directions while some interesting chinese
products have to be put into account as well.

any translator will translate into english or any other language.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/verkehr/elektroauto-neuzulassungen-deutschland-april-gesamtjahr-2019/

http://magnamentis.com
Knowledge, Understanding & Insight Are Among The Best Sources For Personal Freedom & Vitality !

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6561
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 337
  • Likes Given: 239
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #6723 on: May 13, 2019, 05:31:14 PM »
While capitalism isn’t the best system, it is coming up with solutions, just not fast enough.

That's because not enough people are thinking it through fast enough.

Anyway, maybe a split is a good idea. I don't like how this thread has become the one with the most replies on the entire forum. So, here's an Electric cars thread for discussing the latest in EV technology and infrastructure. This thread can continue to be used what it was meant for originally: Whether sustainable transportation is a viable option as a Green BAU solution.

On second thought: Let's turn that into a new thread as well.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin