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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2600 on: November 20, 2017, 07:20:40 PM »
Uber orders whopping 24,000 Volvo XC90 plug-in hybrids for fleet of driverless autos
Quote
This morning Uber Technologies Inc. announced that they have agreed to purchase 24,000 Volvo XC90 plug-in hybrids from the Swedish company to for a fleet of driverless cars. Let that sink in for a moment, 24 thousand self-driving sports utility vehicles. That is 10,000 more than the number of yellow cabs in New York City.

The Volvo XC90’s are of the plug-in hybrid variant... and will be delivered between 2019 and 2021. This is the first commercial order of a ride-hailing provider, according to Volvo. Uber will add its own sensors and software to enable driverless operation.

While Volvo has said to be committed to electric vehicles promising to at least hybrid-ize all of its vehicles by 2019, Uber seems to be committed to replacing their highest cost factor, namely human drivers in its on-demand taxi service. The San Francisco based company already agreed to use 100 XV90’s in self-driving tests in Pittsburgh.
...
https://electrek.co/2017/11/20/uber-volvo-xc90/
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Buddy

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2601 on: November 20, 2017, 11:50:17 PM »
24,000 Volvo XC90's.  In poker....I believe they call that "all in."

That light at the end of the tunnel will keep approaching MUCH faster than most expect.
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2602 on: November 22, 2017, 01:54:13 AM »
All of sudden vehicle to grid technology is a hot topic in the British mainstream media:

V2G Explained by the Mainstream Media

Quote
A few days ago The Times newspaper published an article on vehicle-to-grid technology.

Today the BBC have followed the Times’ lead by publishing an article by Theo Leggett with a slightly different perspective. Unfortunately they included at the top a stock photo of what looks a lot like a Renault ZOE instead of a Nissan LEAF.

However despite the best efforts of the UK's leading investigative journalists we can reveal a world exclusive photograph!



Quote
Do you suppose that if and when the “cost and complexity” reduces and V2G does “make commercial sense” in Tesla’s view, power will suddenly start flowing in the opposite direction down that stout red cable?
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2603 on: November 22, 2017, 02:27:18 PM »
All of sudden vehicle to grid technology is a hot topic in the British mainstream media

The associated "tweet" seems to have achieved "lukewarm" status at least:

https://twitter.com/V2gUK/status/933249903957962752

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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #2604 on: November 22, 2017, 04:10:16 PM »
Tesla finally opens up Model 3 orders to regular reservation holders
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Electrek received several reports from regular Model 3 reservation holders (non-Tesla employee, family members or company insiders) who have started to receive invitations to configure and order their new electric cars.

Tesla confirmed that the latest batch of invitations included non-Tesla employees.

The automaker first guided that the deliveries to regular reservations holders would start in “late October”, but that was delayed last month when Tesla announced some production difficulties pushing back the target for a production rate of 5,000 units per week from December to “the end of the first quarter 2018.”

It looks like the delay for the first Model 3 deliveries to regular reservation holders is a little shorter since people configuring their orders now are being told that they will take delivery by the end of the year, which is just a few weeks away at this point. ...
https://electrek.co/2017/11/21/tesla-model-3-order-regular-reservation-holders/
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #2605 on: November 23, 2017, 12:15:04 AM »
Tesla escapes special ‘EV tax’ in its important market of Norway
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After the Norwegian government announced last month that it was planning a new electric vehicle tax that seemed to be targeted at Tesla’s vehicles, it was expected that the automaker’s growth in this important market could be significantly affected.

But they passed the budget today and fortunately for Tesla buyers, it doesn’t include the new tax geared toward heavier electric vehicles. ...
https://electrek.co/2017/11/22/tesla-escapes-special-ev-tax-norway/
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #2606 on: November 23, 2017, 04:50:17 PM »
Wow! This is much cheaper than everyone thought it would be!

Tesla releases ‘expected price’ of semi electric truck: $150,000 to $200,000
Quote
After focusing on the cost of operation instead of the purchase price during the unveiling event last week, Tesla has now released what it refers to as the “expected price” of the Tesla Semi electric trucks.

The company is listing pricing significantly lower than what we and even the most aggressive forecasts in the industry put forward.

Regular production versions for the 300-mile and 500-mile range versions will be $150,000 and $180,000 respectively, while the company is also listing a ‘Founders Series’ version for $200,000.

For comparison, most diesel semi trucks today cost around $120,000.

Reservation holders were previously reporting a required deposit per truck of $5,000, but Tesla is now listing a “base reservation” of $20,000 for the production version and the full $200,000 for the Founders Series. ...
https://electrek.co/2017/11/22/tesla-semi-expected-price-electric-truck/

https://www.tesla.com/semi/
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Bob Wallace

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« Reply #2607 on: November 23, 2017, 06:23:38 PM »
My big question remaining is what the tractor will weigh.  One person who has cooked the numbers thinks that there won't be an loss in maximum load while anti-Tesla guessers are talking about a 10,000 pound loss.

Single trailer rigs in the US are limited to 80,000 pounds so any increase in tractor weight means less cargo can be hauled, if the cargo is dense.

Sigmetnow

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« Reply #2608 on: November 23, 2017, 07:33:21 PM »
My big question remaining is what the tractor will weigh.  One person who has cooked the numbers thinks that there won't be an loss in maximum load while anti-Tesla guessers are talking about a 10,000 pound loss.

Single trailer rigs in the US are limited to 80,000 pounds so any increase in tractor weight means less cargo can be hauled, if the cargo is dense.

Good question.  Electrek says:
Quote
Also, everyone seems to assume that the truck will actually be heavier than the average diesel truck. I am not so quick to say that it will be the case here. While there’s no doubt that batteries are heavy, diesel engines are too and there are likely other areas that can be improved.

The powertrain components alone in a diesel truck can weight between 3,000 and 4,000 lbs – with a typical class 8 truck tractor weighing in at about 16,000 to 17,000 lbs.

It’s not impossible for Tesla to beat that. ...
https://electrek.co/2017/11/13/tesla-semi-unveiling-electric-truck-expectations/

Even if the batteries weigh as much as a diesel engine, those small (Model 3!) electric motors driving the wheels mean there’s a lot of diesel drive-train weight missing from an electric truck.  And the strongly-tapered front end of the Tesla means the cab should incorporate less steel.  (Also, Musk admits he borrows SpaceX technology to improve Tesla products.)  I think the Tesla will weigh will close to, and maybe even beat, a traditional truck. 
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2609 on: November 23, 2017, 07:38:14 PM »
This light-duty, all-in-one solar car-charging station requires no grid connection.  And installs in about ten minutes.

Solar EV ARC wants to be ‘the future of fuel’ by combining solar, batteries, and electric car charging
https://electrek.co/2017/11/23/solar-ev-arc-future-of-fuel-solar-batteries-electric-car-charging/
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Bob Wallace

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« Reply #2610 on: November 23, 2017, 08:04:37 PM »
Randy Carlson who has done some pretty good estimations of what the next Tesla product will look like (specs wise) is figuring that the Tesla tractor will weigh about the same as a diesel.  That would mean no load reduction.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4127262-tesla-semi-revisited?ifp=0&v=1511354700

Tesla may well have a new higher capacity battery chemistry about ready for the big time. Renault us announced a much larger battery pack (from 22 kWh to now 36 kWh) with no increase in weight.  50% more range with no weight change.

litesong

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« Reply #2611 on: November 24, 2017, 06:25:28 AM »
Was hot to get a Chevy Bolt EV. But, here's why I may wait for the Hyundai Ioniq to arrive with a 250(?) mile range(I know, I know, they are crawling just to get the tiny range car out in the market now). We have 2 Hyundai Elantras(wheels, very common 5x4.5inch(114.3mm) bolt pattern, one for which we bought new high quality Goodyear tires. After the "generous" $150 rebate, we still had to pay $650. Later, we got three excellent Les Schwab tires & those tires cost $330. Yeah, two "deals" for $1000! Many people pay much more without a second thought, but that chocked me. Looked on Craigslist & found some fair used wheel/tire deals. But then, I got rolling. Bought two sweet 18inch used chrome wheels(with used, but wearing like iron mounted tires) - $60! Bought three used, but nice 18inch alloy wheels with good mounted tires-$50!! Bought 2 sets of 4, used, but good 18 & 15 inch tires, each set $20. Several people gave me a total of 4 used but good "FREE" tires!!! Anyhow, the Ioniq also has the very common 5x4.5 inch(114.3mm) bolt pattern. If I wait for the 250mile range Hyundai Ioniq, I will save thousands of dollars on replacement wheels & tires. There ya go. Hyundai Ioniq is on my future list. Oh, yeah, as you can tell, I've met great people on Craigslist. 
« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 03:00:21 PM by litesong »

Sigmetnow

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« Reply #2612 on: November 24, 2017, 02:31:09 PM »
Of course, we should not forget the effect on oil companies, who now have clear evidence that truckers can go diesel-free for a much lower price than most imagined, and in fact can have a lower cost of operation “from Day 1” per Musk.  80% of truck routes are under 250 miles, meaning a round trip (fully loaded) can be completed without needing to stop and charge.  That’s a huge chunk of oil demand poised to disappear.

Oil companies could start pushing hydrogen as an alternative: The Nikola One hydrogen fuel cell semi truck (with sleeper cab) may have their promised range of 1,200 miles — but, at their $5,000 per month lease price, in three or four years you could be half way through their 84-month lease… or, own your Tesla truck outright.  Nikola is promising to build out hydrogen fueling infrastructure, but as more of the industry discovers how electric trucks can work for them, the “need” for hydrogen will quickly disappear.
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Bob Wallace

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« Reply #2613 on: November 24, 2017, 08:04:10 PM »
Some speculations about where battery costs may be when the Tesla tractors start rolling out of the factory...

500 mile semi = $150,000
300 mile semi = $120,000

200 miles more range for $30,000 additional

< 2 kWh per mile.  Musk.  And there are studies which back this up.

First, well under 2 kWh per mile...

500 miles at 1.5 kWh per mile = 750 kWh
300 miles at 1.5 kWh per mile = 450 kWh
                                               -----
                                                300 kWh

300 kWh for $30,000 = $100/kWh.  Retail.


Then, just under 2 kWh per mile...

500 miles at 1.9 kWh per mile = 950 kWh
300 miles at 1.9 kWh per mile = 570 kWh
                                                ----
                                                380 kwh
 
380 kWh for $30,000 = $79/kWh.  Retail.

Selling at a loss?  Selling at cost?  The new cost of batteries?

Sigmetnow

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« Reply #2614 on: November 25, 2017, 12:22:42 AM »
“... The new cost of batteries?“

I think Musk has ‘uncorked’ the ‘bottleneck’ in his battery assembly line, and is confident the (billion+?) dollars Tesla has invested in the Gigafactory is — or shortly will — result in such speed and volume of battery pack production that Tesla’s cost will blow away historical industry pricing.
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #2615 on: November 25, 2017, 04:54:25 PM »
Cross-brand V2G demonstration conducted in Denmark
Quote
Parker is testing a wide range of new and existing grid services to examine how EVs can best contribute to balancing the power system and whether EVs can deliver such grid services across car brands. Partners include electric utilities Enel, Nuvve, Insero, and the Technical University of Denmark.

Parker is testing seven Enel chargers with four different V2G-equipped EVs from Mitsubishi, PSA and Nissan. The comprehensive test plan will assess the vehicles’ ability to provide 11 services, including frequency regulation and grid overload prevention, as well as to intitiate charging in accordance with a signal which informs the vehicle of when CO2 emissions from energy producers are at their lowest. ...
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/cross-brand-v2g-demonstration-conducted-in-denmark/
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #2616 on: November 25, 2017, 08:59:11 PM »
More on the Tesla semi truck:

Powering the Trucks of Tomorrow
http://www.ttnews.com/videos/powering-trucks-tomorrow
Hour-long webcast from trucking industry folks featuring the Tesla truck unveiling;  nice to hear them addressing emissions and greenhouse gasses in a non-negative way.  There’s some talk of efficient diesel (using money from the VW Dieselgate settlement) and natural gas (CNG).  The Supply Chain Director for Frito-Lay (around minute 50+) indicates their interest in electric trucks like Tesla’s because, as with a heavy natural gas tank, truck weight is not a big issue with them, given their light-weight cargo.  (Snacks. :) )


The Tesla semi truck provides “a way for a company to decrease its net CO2 emissions without having to undertake expensive endeavors like sponsoring the construction of renewable power plants.”
Walmart plans to pilot test the new Tesla Semi
https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/17/walmart-plans-to-pilot-test-the-new-tesla-semi/


Lengthy physical descriptions of the new truck in this article.  And then this:
“Rob Penner, chief executive officer of Bison [Transport, a Canadian fleet company], told Trucknews.com “I was down in Santa Clara earlier and was able to test drive the Tesla “mule” (Tesla tech in a Cascadia) and the performance was really impressive. They have been running this truck for about a year moving their own parts in and out of Nevada with very good performance data. …”
Tesla semi hits the streets
https://www.trucknews.com/equipment/tesla-semi-hits-streets/1003081886/
     A Tesla semi truck has been running 250 miles over the mountains between the Fremont, California factory and the Nevada Gigafactory?  I guess it’s possible!  There have been spy shots of such a “mule” on the street in California:
Where are the exhaust pipes? :D
https://insideevs.com/tesla-semi-mule-video/
    And:
Tesla requested permission to test electric truck prototypes for platooning and self-driving in Nevada and California earlier this year.
   Tesla to be its own first electric semi truck customer with cargo route between Fremont and Gigafactory 1
https://electrek.co/2017/11/25/tesla-semi-electric-truck-customer-cargo-route-fremont-gigafactory/
The bottom video in that article is a clip from a recent presentation in the Netherlands by the Tesla VP of Truck programs Jerome Guillen where he says Tesla’s goal is to have the same cargo weight capacity as a diesel truck.

Edit: The CA-NV route, on Interstate 80, goes over Donner Pass, an elevation of 7,000 feet (2,133 m).
« Last Edit: November 25, 2017, 09:42:44 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #2617 on: November 25, 2017, 09:47:50 PM »
Totally unsurprising that the Tesla semi truck was built to specs that could handle the max loads Tesla needs to haul between Fremont and the Gigafactory.  After all, the Model S can seat seven because Musk needed to fit all his kids!  ;D
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Tor Bejnar

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« Reply #2618 on: November 25, 2017, 09:48:58 PM »
Tesla's PR makes me want to have a second career as a trucker!
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« Reply #2619 on: November 26, 2017, 12:39:46 AM »
If it was anyone but Musk, I'd be hollering BS at the top of my lungs.
I've actually written in this vein twice before, but trashed the posts as being too controversial. Today however Bloomberg jumped on board.


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-24/tesla-s-newest-promises-break-the-laws-of-batteries


Bloomberg is concerned with the specifics of battery technology, while my concerns are more varied.


The central drivers position, while futuristic, makes no sense if backing your trailer into a narrow slot, even driving forward from a centered position will take training. Did anyone note that one of the new trucks sported very wide "West Coast" mirrors, while another apparently relied on cameras and screens? Laws will need to be rewritten in each state they are driven in if cameras are the final configuration.


Where does the second driver sit, or does this require a different cab?
Will a "Slim Jim" configuration be made available for pulling doubles that push the maximum length rules, or will these laws also need to be revised?


I'm unsure how important minimal wind resistance is, but claiming a Tractor Trailer can offer less resistance than a sports car is very hard to swallow.
The extreme acceleration will require extreme care in loading. Trailers are typically loaded to assure little or no damage to goods under hard braking conditions, now the G-force from acceleration will also need to be taken into account. The strains put on the frame and trailers will require heavier components, so I hope this has been taken into account.


Bloomberg digs into the batteries and concludes that Musk must be counting on big improvements in battery technology by the time the trucks are offered for sale, and battery weight has been a concern of mine.


I hope Musk can deliver.
Terry

Bob Wallace

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« Reply #2620 on: November 26, 2017, 03:05:20 AM »
From your Bloomberg link...

Quote
These claims are so far beyond current industry standards for electric vehicles that they would require either advances in battery technology or a new understanding of how batteries are put to use

I wonder if Bloomberg considered that Tesla might already have a much better battery technology?  Remember, Tesla has hired some of the best battery people in the business.  And they've made an open offer to anyone who thinks they have a superior battery to bring it to Tesla and Tesla will evaluate it.

If I had a new battery that I thought better than what is being used I'd take it straight to Tesla because I'd want to license it out and make as much money as possible as quickly as possible seeing how there's almost certainly to be an even better battery one day and the smart move would be to maximize income while possible.

No one, for the next several years, is going to use more batteries than Tesla.  It may be five years or more before anyone catches up with Tesla in terms of cells consumed considering that Tesla will soon be manufacturing 4x to 5x as many EVs per year as the next highest volume manufacturer. 

Add in Tesla's storage business and battery use at their charging stations.  Tesla is going to be far and away the major user of cells for a long time.

Bob Wallace

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« Reply #2621 on: November 26, 2017, 03:37:37 AM »
Quote
it would still require a battery capacity somewhere from 600 kilowatt hours to 1,000 kilowatt hours to deliver on Musk’s claims, according to estimates from Bloomberg New Energy Finance. Split the difference, at 800 kWh, and it would mean a battery that weighs more than 10,000 pounds and costs more than $100,000—even before you build the truck around it.

The Bloomberg article is simply a "We can't figure out how Tesla could do this so let's spread doubt".

Tesla is a publicly traded company.  The CEO cannot get up in public and make false statements without opening up the company to lawsuits from unhappy stockholders.

Quote
The central drivers position, while futuristic, makes no sense if backing your trailer into a narrow slot

Makes a lot of sense.  Driver on the left has a harder time seeing the right side of the truck.  Plus cameras.

Quote
Where does the second driver sit, or does this require a different cab?

The first release will be a "day cab".  Later on a sleeper cab (perhaps).  Actually Tesla might never release a sleeper because we could be only a short time away from driverless trucks.  Especially on the long interstate highway runs which will be the easiest to run without a driver.

Lots of savings when the trucking company does not have to pay for two people in the cab on a multi-day run.

Quote
I'm unsure how important minimal wind resistance is, but claiming a Tractor Trailer can offer less resistance than a sports car is very hard to swallow.

Look back at my CEO/lawsuit statement.  I'm sure Tesla has done the work to determine the Cd for this truck and trailer.  But, remember, Cd is only a measure of the 'slipperiness'.  Total frontal area has to be included as well. 

The Tesla truck can equal or beat the Cd of a sports car because it has no big air intake in the front end and it has a smooth underbelly.  They did a bunch of other stuff to make this puppy slick.

Quote
so I hope this has been taken into account

I'm not aiming this specifically at you, Terry, but at a huge number of comments I've seen when it comes to innovative things like this truck. 

Do you really think that people whose field is to design vehicles overlook shifting loads or don't understand the strength requirements of components?

I saw someone today claim that Tesla must have not given any thought to the fact that trucks have to climb mountains.  Tesla has been running battery powered mules between Fremont and Reno - there's a mountain range between the two factories.

Sigmetnow

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« Reply #2622 on: November 26, 2017, 02:34:48 PM »
“Where does the second driver sit, or does this require a different cab.”

There is a second (fold-away) seat, behind and to the side of the driver.  Musk sat in it when he was driven onstage.
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #2623 on: November 26, 2017, 02:55:48 PM »
Bob Wallace wrote:  The Bloomberg article is simply a "We can't figure out how Tesla could do this so let's spread doubt".

Exactly. 

Arthur C. Clarke said it best:  “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”
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« Reply #2624 on: November 26, 2017, 03:14:19 PM »
In the last couple of years we have already seen BMW, Nissan, Renault, Samsung increase the capacity of the batteries in their cars by between 50% and 100% (in the same volume). I wouldn't bet that Tesla hasn't improved their batteries by similar or better amounts.

Sigmetnow

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« Reply #2625 on: November 26, 2017, 03:32:36 PM »
Also, Tesla has been working on the semi truck with people from the trucking industry, for some time. Tesla knows what they need/want!  And they’ve told him, “Now just tell us how much it will cost, and when we can get them.”
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #2626 on: November 26, 2017, 04:52:47 PM »
Irony alert!  This is pretty much what Tesla has been doing, or trying to do, in the U.S. states.  (This is essentially only a U.S. thing, apparently.)

"With all the things we've talked about, autonomous cars, ride-sharing and car-sharing, you wonder if the auto dealership will be transformed from a full-service automotive provider to basically a delivery agent for the manufacturers."

U.S.:   Mom and pop auto dealers are looking to sell
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/24/mom-and-pop-auto-dealers-are-looking-to-sell.html



Backgrounder:
Why You Can't Buy a Tesla in These 6 States
https://www.ecowatch.com/states-cant-buy-tesla-2278638949.html
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2627 on: November 26, 2017, 06:51:59 PM »
The denial machine has put out talking points that the Tesla semi specs are just on paper and there’s no prototype. Also they’ve proven from the pictures of the prototype (which doesn’t exist) that the truck can’t turn.

Bob Wallace

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« Reply #2628 on: November 26, 2017, 07:34:44 PM »
The denial machine has put out talking points that the Tesla semi specs are just on paper and there’s no prototype. Also they’ve proven from the pictures of the prototype (which doesn’t exist) that the truck can’t turn.

Tesla has been running mules - diesel tractors with their engines and transmissions removed and replaced with batteries and electric motors - between their California and Nevada factories.  On the way from Fremont to Reno those battery powered trucks climb the western slope of the Sierra Mountains.

The prototype displayed by Tesla recently may not be a fully functional truck.  Prototypes are often pushed on and off the stage/display because a prototype is a display of what the company plans to build.  Prototypes are mostly what the vehicle will look like.

Put the operating mules (that look like the regular tractor that contributed the body) with the aerodynamics and features of the prototype that was displayed.  That will give you an idea of what the delivered product will be.

Except the delivered product will likely be even better.  Two or three more years of a large number of very intelligent, creative people thinking up and discovering better solutions than we have today.  If Tesla delivers the world of large trucks changes overnight.

Bob Wallace

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« Reply #2629 on: November 26, 2017, 07:53:52 PM »
In the last couple of years we have already seen BMW, Nissan, Renault, Samsung increase the capacity of the batteries in their cars by between 50% and 100% (in the same volume). I wouldn't bet that Tesla hasn't improved their batteries by similar or better amounts.

I got involved (at the consumer/user level) in digital photography early.  The first affordable (only moderately expensive) digital cameras I owned used NiMH AAs.  At first the rechargeable batteries held 900 mAh, had a self discharge problem, and had to be 'reconditioned' periodically in order to keep them fully functional. 

With a new market for better batteries that would let you shoot all day and have your camera functional when you picked it up after not charging the batteries for a few days we saw rapid battery improvement.  Now you can purchase 3400 mAh batteries for about the same or less than we paid for 900 mAh batteries.

It became clear at least five years back with the release of the Tesla S that there was a developing demand for much better batteries.  In fact, it goes back at least four years earlier when we saw funding for new battery plants written into the economic recovery stimulus plan put in place during the Bush recession.  It became clear to many people that there were fortunes to be made by those who could develop better batteries and money flowed into battery research.

We should be seeing that research paying off now.  We're still a long way from the theoretical limit of lithium-ion batteries and there are other formulations under study.  Five years from now we're likely to look at today's batteries as crude.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2630 on: November 26, 2017, 08:39:20 PM »
The denial machine has put out talking points that the Tesla semi specs are just on paper and there’s no prototype. Also they’ve proven from the pictures of the prototype (which doesn’t exist) that the truck can’t turn.

 ;D  ;D  ;D
I guess they didn't bother to watch the actual unveiling of the (non-existent) prototype, then.  The panels in back of the cab are “active” — they move!  MAGIC!
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #2631 on: November 26, 2017, 09:11:21 PM »
The VP of Tesla's truck program gives a talk.  Article and Video at the link.

Guillen compared the aerodynamic design of the Tesla Semi to a bullet train.

Tesla’s VP of Trucks talks about new electric semi, weight, charging, and more
Quote
- He confirmed that Tesla intends to have the same cargo capacity as diesel trucks – meaning that it should weigh about the same as a diesel truck.
- Guillen compared the aerodynamic design of the Tesla Semi to a bullet train.
- He also addressed development work to adapt the Tesla Semi design to European trucking regulations, which is apparently in the [works], but it doesn’t sound like they have all the solutions yet.
- The exec expects that the Tesla Semi cost of operation advantage should be even greater in Europe than in the US due to the higher cost of diesel.
- On top of the Megachargers to enable longer routes, Tesla also plans to offer destination chargers for its electric trucks.
- Guillen also confirmed that Tesla uses the same Autopilot hardware suite developed for their passenger vehicles to enable Enhanced Autopilot features on Tesla Semi trucks.
- Tesla Semi offers a 360-degree view all around the vehicle with cameras in order to eliminate blind spots.
- Like the Tesla Model 3, Tesla Semi doesn’t have a key and instead it relies on the Tesla mobile app.
https://electrek.co/2017/11/26/tesla-semi-vp-trucks-electric-presentation/
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Bob Wallace

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« Reply #2632 on: November 26, 2017, 10:23:54 PM »
Quote
He confirmed that Tesla intends to have the same cargo capacity as diesel trucks – meaning that it should weigh about the same as a diesel truck.

I wish they would flesh that out a little more.  Capacity in terms of weight or only in terms of volume?

If there's a significant loss of maximum load then the companies that might use the truck declines.  Although there are probably very many companies that hit the volume limit well before weight. 

UPS ships a lot of air inside its cardboard boxes.  Very few shipments of lead.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2633 on: November 27, 2017, 12:27:58 AM »
Quote
He confirmed that Tesla intends to have the same cargo capacity as diesel trucks – meaning that it should weigh about the same as a diesel truck.

I wish they would flesh that out a little more.  Capacity in terms of weight or only in terms of volume?

If there's a significant loss of maximum load then the companies that might use the truck declines.  Although there are probably very many companies that hit the volume limit well before weight. 

UPS ships a lot of air inside its cardboard boxes.  Very few shipments of lead.

Tesla has been working with trucking people from early on.  They know what an electric truck must do to be competitive with the diesel options — including weight and volume.  Everything we've seen suggests little if any sacrifices will need to be made to switch to their truck.

As I noted above, Frito-Lay, with their large volume of lightweight snack cargo, figures electric trucks should work fine for their needs.
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #2634 on: November 27, 2017, 04:03:21 AM »
Dieselgate conviction in U.S.

VW engineer sentenced to 40-month prison term in diesel case
Quote
A federal judge in Detroit sentenced former engineer James Liang to 40 months in prison on Friday for his role in Volkswagen AG's multiyear scheme to sell diesel cars that generated more pollution than U.S. clean air rules allowed.

U.S. District Court Judge Sean Cox also ordered Liang to pay a $200,000 fine, 10 times the amount sought by federal prosecutors. Cox said he hoped the prison sentence and fine would deter other auto industry engineers and executives from similar schemes to deceive regulators and consumers.

Liang was part of a long-term conspiracy that perpetrated a "stunning fraud on the American consumer," Cox said, as the defendant's family looked on in the courtroom. "This is a very serious and troubling crime against our economic system."

Liang pleaded guilty earlier this year to misleading regulators, and had cooperated with U.S. law enforcement officials investigating Volkswagen. ...
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1B51YP
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #2635 on: November 27, 2017, 02:01:26 PM »
Hey, TerryM:  Good news!

Tesla’s VP of Trucks says they are developing the tech for convoys of three trucks — not mile-long platoons. 
I hope that helps assuage your concerns about causing major disruptions to other folks’ commutes. :)
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2636 on: November 27, 2017, 02:56:15 PM »
Can we get back to this side of the Atlantic and the cars, cars and more cars bit?

Mini BEV enthusiasts in here might be interested in this shock revelation on the V2G UK Twitter feed?

https://twitter.com/V2gUK/status/935083301529939968
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« Reply #2637 on: November 27, 2017, 03:03:43 PM »
Hey, TerryM:  Good news!

Tesla’s VP of Trucks says they are developing the tech for convoys of three trucks — not mile-long platoons. 
I hope that helps assuage your concerns about causing major disruptions to other folks’ commutes. :)


It does.
My concerns are the concerns of one who drove cross country for a portion of his misspent youth. The all around cameras may relieve some concerns WRT the centered steering position. The reason truckers always back straight or turn to the left when backing is that when turned, the mirrors become totally ineffective.
If cameras were mounted on the trailer this might be mitigated, but keep in mind that trailers are often owned by shippers rather than the transport companies that own or lease the tractors. A particular tractor might pull hundreds of trailers over a year, and the length, volume, and axle positions on the various trailers will vary.
Trucks as envisioned will require a total rollout of rolling stock including all of the trailers.


Most team drivers are married couples that own and operate their own cabs. They prefer decent living quarters as compared to the bolt on doghouses I slept in. A cab designed for short haul, say a day run between Reno and California, isn't optimal for a wild cat freighter running the full 48 while picking up loads from all sources, or a husband/wife team hauling bedbugs, (furniture).
Most or all states allow pulling double trailers, coming upon three of these electronically tethered might cause problems.


This is the greatest change to the industry in my lifetime, I just hope that Musk can deliver something close to what he's promising.
Terry

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« Reply #2638 on: November 27, 2017, 04:05:24 PM »
Re cameras on “other” trailers:  why not have a separate, remote camera or two that you can afix to the back of any trailer using a magnet, and connect it to the Tesla viewscreens via Bluetooth?

Re living conditions:  people are already talking about using a Tesla semi truck as a base for an incredible RV (recreational vehicle).  :D  We’ll need to see whether comfy trucker sleeper accommodations become a thing... before fully autonomous (or, remotely piloted!) trucks take over the industry....
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« Reply #2639 on: November 27, 2017, 04:07:39 PM »
BMW invest $240 million to bring electric car range to 430 miles with new battery cell center
Quote
They expect the new facility to be completed in 2019 and play a central role in enabling BMW’s fifth generation electric drivetrain, which they plan to release in 2021.

Earlier this year, BMW seriously updated its EV plans with 12 all-electric cars by 2025. The first one is expected to be the long-overdue all-electric Mini, which BMW says is coming in 2019.

The ones on the next generation enabled by new battery cells will have significantly better performance, says BMW. They are aiming for a range of 700 km (430 miles) on a single charge. The company also says that it is developing its next-generation electric motors without rare earth metals. ...
https://electrek.co/2017/11/27/bmw-invest-electric-car-range-new-battery-cell-center/
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« Reply #2640 on: November 27, 2017, 04:25:47 PM »
ICE cars 🚗 = TOAST after 2025 in the US.  Sooner in some European countries....



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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2641 on: November 27, 2017, 04:35:35 PM »
Honda is working on 15-minute charging for its upcoming electric cars
Quote
According to a report from Nikkei, the Japanese automaker is working on a new battery technology to enable “240 km (150 miles) of range in 15 minutes.”

It would represent roughly a doubling of the current best charging capacity on an average-size vehicle, but they are reportedly not planning to include the technology in their EVs until 2022.

Honda is planning to release new electric vehicles before then, but they will feature current battery technology.

The automaker currently sells its only all-electric vehicle, the Clarity Electric, a compliance car, and it plans to bring a new retro-looking urban EV to market in 2019. ...
https://electrek.co/2017/11/27/honda-electric-car-15-minute-charging/
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2642 on: November 27, 2017, 05:39:37 PM »
Tesla RV blog  (a link for what Sigmetnow posted earlier today)
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2643 on: November 27, 2017, 05:53:07 PM »
On backing trucks--
Probably the easiest would be to have a belly box to remotely control the truck, while the trucker stands outside and watches.  This technology already exists for cranes.

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« Reply #2644 on: November 27, 2017, 07:19:36 PM »
On backing trucks--
Probably the easiest would be to have a belly box to remotely control the truck, while the trucker stands outside and watches.  This technology already exists for cranes.

You mean remote control by a human?  I’d call that state of the art, today.

But I’m betting Tesla will code an AI assistant to back the truck automatically, similar to the Summon and Park commands its cars have now.  The problem will be: guessing the size of non-Tesla trailers — will a screen allow the driver to input the trailer’s length/wheelbase?  Or will some sort of calibration test be required (go walk behind the truck with a special-sized cardboard target)?  Or will the AI just figure it out on its own, using the cameras and perspective, much the way autonomous software works now?


Edit:  Never mind!  The Tesla semi truck as revealed appears to have cameras built into its moveable side panels (“wings”)!
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-semi-autopilot-cameras-convoy-technology/amp/
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 07:36:16 PM by Sigmetnow »
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« Reply #2645 on: November 27, 2017, 07:28:00 PM »
More on the IONITY charging agreement with Shell that Jim Hunt referenced above....

Ionity ultra-fast electric car charging network partners with Shell to deploy chargers at petrol stations
Quote
IONITY, the new ‘ultra-fast’ joint electric car charging network by BMW, Mercedes, Ford and Volkswagen, is starting to take shape in Europe.

Today, the venture announced a series of new partnerships for the deployment of its charging stations. Interestingly, they are all with petrol station and truck stop companies.

The network plans 400 stations with a capacity of 350 kW across Europe by 2020 – starting with 20 stations by the end of the year.

They had already announced partnerships with “Tank & Rast”, “Circle K” and “OMV” to deploy stations in Germany, Norway, and Austria.
...
The deal with Shell will bring IONITY charging stations to Belgium, France, Great Britain, the Netherlands, Austria, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, the Czech Republic and Hungary. ...
https://electrek.co/2017/11/27/ionity-ultra-fast-electric-car-charging-network-partners-with-petrol-stations-chargers/

From Jim’s Bloomberg article:
Shell “wants 20 percent of profit margins from fuel sold in its retail forecourts to come from vehicles that don’t burn diesel or gasoline by 2025.”
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2646 on: November 27, 2017, 08:16:12 PM »
Stupid question: How much does it cost to charge your car at a charging station? And how does that compare to fossil fuel? Is the price the same everywhere?
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« Reply #2647 on: November 28, 2017, 12:05:05 AM »
Stupid question: How much does it cost to charge your car at a charging station? And how does that compare to fossil fuel? Is the price the same everywhere?

 In fact, that is a great question! The cost to charge an electric car ranges from “free“ to “very expensive.”  Depending on your schedule and your location, you may, or may not, have a lot of choices. Of course, comparisons involve local electric prices and local gas prices, so it’s hard to give a firm answer, but you should be able to drive electric for less than the cost of driving on fossil fuels.

Free:  Tesla Superchargers (OK, you can consider it as part of the purchase price of a Tesla.). This benefit is going away, however:  newer cars will get 400 kWh supercharging (about 1,000 miles?) a year free, then be charged.  But these are intended to be used for long distance travel, not everyday use.

Also free: some slow and medium-fast (level 2) public chargers, particularly at some municipal locations (courthouse, parks), and “destination” chargers at hotels, restaurants, malls, etc. who figure they will get money out of you by other means.  But many other similar locations will charge you. 

Many different charging companies have installed networks of medium-fast level 2 chargers, requiring a couple hours to get a decent charge.  Most require their own membership or access card (which can be a pain), and cost varies by location, anywhere from free to very expensive.  You may have to pay for parking, as well.

You can charge at home, and pay whatever your electric company charges.  If you have varying, “Time Of Use” billing, you can schedule your car to charge during the cheapest period — usually overnight.  And if you have solar panels, you can charge yourself for “free.”

The above is U.S.-centric; other countries have their own quirks but should be similar.

The “PlugShare” app and website ( https://www.plugshare.com ) shows locations of chargers around the world, and their cost.  Do check it out.  Many EV owners list their home chargers there, enabling you to stop in and charge on their dime! 


Here’s one article that tries to crunch the numbers.  I’ll see if I can find another. 

https://pluginamerica.org/how-much-does-it-cost-charge-electric-car/
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #2648 on: November 28, 2017, 12:16:35 AM »
Electricity Costs for Charging
Quote
The fuel efficiency of an all-electric vehicle may be measured in kilowatt-hours (kWh) per 100 miles rather than miles per gallon. To calculate the cost per mile of an all-electric vehicle, the cost of electricity (in dollars per kWh) and the efficiency of the vehicle (how much electricity is used to travel 100 miles) must be known. If electricity costs $0.11 per kWh and the vehicle consumes 34 kWh to travel 100 miles, the cost per mile is about $0.04.

If electricity costs $0.11 per kilowatt-hour, charging an all-electric vehicle with a 70-mile range (assuming a fully depleted 24 kWh battery) will cost about $2.64 to reach a full charge. This cost is about the same as operating an average central air conditioner for about 6 hours. General Motors estimates the annual energy use of the Chevy Volt is about 2,520 kilowatt-hours, which is less energy than what is required to power a typical water heater or central air conditioning. To compare the fueling costs of individual models of conventional and plug-in vehicles, see the Vehicle Cost Calculator.

For EV and PHEV charging, the stability and planning benefits of household electricity rates offer an attractive alternative compared to traditional petroleum-based transportation. Learn more from Idaho National Laboratory's report: Comparing Energy Costs per Mile for Electric and Gasoline-Fueled Vehicles (PDF). [See quote below.]
https://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_charging_home.html



Comparing Energy Costs per Mile for Electric and Gasoline-Fueled Vehicles
Quote
The fuel cost of driving an electric vehicle depends on the cost of electricity per kilowatt-hour (kWh) and the energy efficiency of the vehicle. For example, to determine the energy cost per mile of an electric vehicle, select the location on the left axis (Electricity Cost per kWh) at 10 cents in the graph below. Draw a horizontal line to the right until you bisect the EV 3 mi/kWh line. Now draw a vertical line down until you bisect the bottom axis (Energy Cost per Mile). This tells you that the fuel for an electric vehicle with an energy efficiency of 3 miles per kWh costs about 3.3 cents per mile when electricity costs 10 cents per kWh.

  The national average cost for electricity in the U.S. is about 10 cents per kWh, while the average residential rate is about 11.7 cents per kWh. Some electric utilities have historically had electric vehicle charging rates that vary by time of use, day, and season. In the past, these rates have ranged from 3 cents to as high as 50 cents per kWh. Older electric vehicles have energy efficiencies of about 2 miles per kWh. Some electric vehicles, such as the EV1 from General Motors, had energy efficiencies of over 6 miles per kWh under some testing. 

To determine the energy cost per mile of a gasoline vehicle, pick the location on the right axis (Gasoline Cost per gallon) at $3.50. Draw a horizontal line to the left until you bisect the Gas 22 mi/gal line. Now draw a vertical line down until you bisect the bottom axis (Energy Cost per Mile). This tells you that the fuel for a gasoline vehicle with an energy efficiency of 22 miles per gallon costs about 15.9 cents per mile when gasoline costs $3.50 per gallon. The mileage for commercial fleet vehicles such as light-duty pickups ranges from below 17 miles per gallon to generally about 22 miles per gallon. 

The energy cost per mile is also included for a hybrid electric vehicle (HEV) with an energy efficiency of 45 miles per gallon, as these types of vehicles are increasingly being used. If $3.50 per gallon of gasoline is also assumed for the HEV that gets 45 mpg, the energy cost per mile would be 7.8 cents per mile.
https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/costs.pdf
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Sigmetnow

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« Reply #2649 on: November 28, 2017, 12:23:03 AM »
Tesla has a calculator where you can input electricity and gas costs for comparison.  It includes time and distance factors.  Bottom of this page:   https://www.tesla.com/charging

This page has a chart comparing average price per mile to charge an EV in each of the U.S. states:
http://teslarumors.com/USA-Residental-Energy-Cost-2011-by-State.html

The True Cost of Powering an Electric Car
Focus on Low Kilowatt-Hours, Not Cost Per Gallon
https://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/the-true-cost-of-powering-an-electric-car.html

The Real Price of EV Public Charging
http://www.plugincars.com/guide-to-public-charging-costs.html
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 12:31:39 AM by Sigmetnow »
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