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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2750 on: December 12, 2017, 03:28:48 PM »
BenB wrote: “I just don't think that they will be producing 4-5 times more EVs than anyone else next year or that they will be producing more batteries at one factory than the rest of the world put together at all of the other battery factories in the world.”

Tesla is not just EVs.  There is also their Energy Storage business.  As I stated above, Musk expects that part of the business to be even greater than the EV portion.  Tesla has already spent a billion dollars and has a 5-year head start — and Musk knows the global battery business, in detail... I dare say, better than we do.  ;)
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2751 on: December 12, 2017, 03:30:23 PM »
Can Coke be far behind?  ;D

Tesla Semi receives important order of 100 electric trucks from PepsiCo
https://electrek.co/2017/12/12/tesla-semi-order-100-electric-trucks-pepsico/
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numerobis

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2752 on: December 12, 2017, 05:22:10 PM »
BenB wrote: “I just don't think that they will be producing 4-5 times more EVs than anyone else next year or that they will be producing more batteries at one factory than the rest of the world put together at all of the other battery factories in the world.”

Tesla is not just EVs.  There is also their Energy Storage business.  As I stated above, Musk expects that part of the business to be even greater than the EV portion.  Tesla has already spent a billion dollars and has a 5-year head start — and Musk knows the global battery business, in detail... I dare say, better than we do.  ;)

There's far more than 35 GWh of lithium batteries produced in 2016 -- and even more in 2017 -- that were produced outside the gigafactory:
https://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/08/daily-chart-8

For the claim to become true as you interpret it, battery production outside the gigafactory would have to fall to well below what the world produced in 2016 or 2017 (The Economist doesn't list data for 2015, but implies that in 2013 the total was less than 35 GWh). That's exceedingly unlikely, short of war with North Korea blowing up all of Samsung's and LG's battery factories -- of course, such a war would probably also disrupt Tesla's business.

Musk obviously knows this, so the likeliest explanation is that he carefully worded a claim in such a way that it would be true under the correct interpretation, while leaving wilder interpretations open for others to adopt.

And this is good news! It doesn't mean Tesla is failing to produce a lot of batteries, it means the rest of the world is producing *even more batteries*.

Alexander555

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2753 on: December 12, 2017, 05:30:54 PM »
In what way do they have a 5 year head start ? Just correct me if i'm wrong. For the moment they buy small batteries ( like AA size) from Panasonic. They put a couple 1000 of them in module, and a few modules are a battery pack. So what are they going to do in that giga factory ? Are they going to produce a new model from zero?

Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2754 on: December 12, 2017, 05:37:31 PM »
When Tesla announced they would build a massive battery factory you can be sure they had already made sure they could source the materials they would need to manufacture the batteries.  Lithium suppliers knew a big move was afoot before the general public.

When Tesla announced that they were going to build a massive battery factory you can be sure that every other battery manufacturer started discussing their own expansion plans and their material sourcing people started talking to their suppliers about whether materials for larger production levels would be available.

When Tesla ... you can be sure that ever lithium, cobalt and other materials suppliers started making expansion plans. 

You can be sure that every battery manufacturer is and has been tracking the progress of the Gigafactory and tracking Tesla sales (along with other EV sales).  There's new business coming and the people who manufacture batteries and supply materials want a share of that expanding business.

It's just not the case that there are phone calls that run "Hi, Lithium Producer, we just opened a new huge battery plant like Tesla built and we're wondering if you could ship us out a few extra tonnes of lithium this week?".

Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2755 on: December 12, 2017, 05:44:52 PM »
In what way do they have a 5 year head start ? Just correct me if i'm wrong. For the moment they buy small batteries ( like AA size) from Panasonic. They put a couple 1000 of them in module, and a few modules are a battery pack. So what are they going to do in that giga factory ? Are they going to produce a new model from zero?

Tesla started selling a long range EV more than five years ago.  Five years ago this month they started selling the Model S.

Tesla is not using the same batteries that you can buy.  They've made changes in how their batteries are constructed (thinner separator layers), a larger size, and probably a different chemistry.

The new battery plant will be fully automated.  Videos of cell manufacturing have to be slowed down so that you can see the machines operating.  At normal speed things are just a blur. 

But mostly, the Gigafactory will be producing huge numbers of cells.  The GF will manufacture as many batteries in a year as all the battery factories in the world were manufacturing when the GF was announced. 


Alexander555

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2756 on: December 12, 2017, 05:56:32 PM »
Maybe they are working on something like this, that would be a big difference. Point 3 and 8, just below the you-tube movie.

https://batterybro.com/blogs/18650-wholesale-battery-reviews/103090502-why-do-lithium-ion-batteries-die-long

numerobis

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2757 on: December 12, 2017, 06:40:23 PM »
In what way do they have a 5 year head start ? Just correct me if i'm wrong. For the moment they buy small batteries ( like AA size) from Panasonic. They put a couple 1000 of them in module, and a few modules are a battery pack. So what are they going to do in that giga factory ? Are they going to produce a new model from zero?

Gigafactory is a joint venture with Panasonic. They're already producing a lot of batteries there (4 GWh if you believe The Economist's estimate).

rboyd

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2758 on: December 12, 2017, 07:39:44 PM »
Uber lost $2.5 billion in 2015, probably lost $4 billion in 2016, and is on track to lose $5 billion in 2017

More analysis showing that the Uber business model is simply not sustainable. That huge cash mountain is disappearing fast.

This environment is feeling more and more like the "dot.com" bubble just before the music stops. May go on for a few more months, but cant see it lasting past next summer. Too many companies that are making no money valued at ridiculous levels based on "future prospects."

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/12/can-uber-ever-deliver-part-eleven-annual-uber-losses-now-approaching-5-billion.html

ghoti

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2759 on: December 12, 2017, 08:13:33 PM »
The same was said for Paypal, Amazon, Facebook and Google.... These ventures don't plan on being profitable early on.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2760 on: December 13, 2017, 04:10:12 PM »
Toyota plays catch-up, after betting for too long on hydrogen vehicles.

Toyota courts Tesla’s battery partner Panasonic ahead of electric car push
Quote
Panasonic has risen to the top position as a battery cell supplier for the auto industry through its partnership with Tesla, which has become the largest battery consumer in the world.

Now Toyota is courting the company for a battery partnership as the major Japanese automaker is playing catch up in the EV space.  The two Japanese companies announced today a deal to “begin studying the feasibility of a joint automotive prismatic battery business.”

They described the agreement in a press release today:

“This agreement between the two companies aims to help find solutions to pressing societal issues such as global warming, air pollution, the depletion of natural resources and energy security. Furthermore, this agreement is intended to address growing demand and expectations for electrified vehicles. In order to realize these objectives, Toyota and Panasonic target further advancements in automotive batteries, which are crucial technologies in electrified vehicles.”

Toyota has been entrenched in the development of hydrogen fuel cell powertrains and never focused on battery-electric vehicles.  Until recently, their biggest effort in the space was a partnership and investment in Tesla that led to the California-based automaker developing the all-electric powertrain for the Toyota Rav4 EV, which has since been discontinued as the Japanese automaker sold all its Tesla shares.

Now, Toyota plans to build its first all-electric vehicle from the ground up and it is expected to come to market in 2020 – making the company late to market compared to the rest of the industry.
...
https://electrek.co/2017/12/13/toyota-tesla-battery-partner-panasonic-electric-car-push/
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2761 on: December 13, 2017, 06:44:08 PM »
October, 2017
 
Yoshikazu Tanaka, the chief engineer in charge of Toyota’s Mirai, admitted to Reuters that plug-in cars make more sense:

“Elon Musk is right – it’s better to charge the electric car directly by plugging in,”

However Toyota continues down the hydrogen pathway.  They're building a huge hydrogen plant at the Long Beach harbor.  And they plan on fueling it with "farm waste".

There's no farm waste in Long Beach.  Are they going to truck in manure from cattle feedlots in the Central Valley?  Where are they going to source farm wastes that don't cost more in transportation energy than they can extract from the wastes?

Doesn't Toyota have know some great secret about hydrogen that no one else knows?

Is there a Trump clone running Toyota?

numerobis

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2762 on: December 13, 2017, 07:53:30 PM »
The same was said for Paypal, Amazon, Facebook and Google.... These ventures don't plan on being profitable early on.

The problem with Uber is that the business model is too easy to replicate. For under $100k you can set up a website with an app. The vast bulk of the ridership are people who live in that city, so the barrier to entry is an ad campaign in one city. The only advantage they had was their willingness to brazenly ignore the law and break the taxi monopoly -- but now that the monopolies have been broken and the laws eased up, anyone can benefit from that advantage.

Their only hope is developing self-driving cars.


A financial services company like Paypal requires a lot of trust on sides -- and PayPal particularly requires two parties who don't trust each other to both trust a third party -- so it's hard to set up a competing service.

Amazon has huge efficiencies of scale, so it's hard to set up a new one (but Alibaba did).

Facebook is one of many of the same thing; there's a natural monopoly in social media, but it could be broken in a year if a new cool social media app comes out.

Google had technology that was hard to replicate, and used that to spread into other domains before the technology became obsolete.

rboyd

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2763 on: December 14, 2017, 06:08:07 AM »
Uber's cash burn is increasing as time goes on, by now the losses should be reducing if the business model works.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2764 on: December 14, 2017, 06:45:20 AM »
Uber has a contract with Volvo to purchase 25,000 self-driving EVs to be delivered between 2019 and 2021.

Robotaxis should be a gamechanger.

TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2765 on: December 14, 2017, 12:40:55 PM »
Uber has a contract with Volvo to purchase 25,000 self-driving EVs to be delivered between 2019 and 2021.

Robotaxis should be a gamechanger.


Why?
Drivers aren't terribly well paid, and, AFAIK driverless cars aren't allowed in very many jurisdictions. ::)
Volvo has a great reputation for safety, but 2019 is less than 13 months away, and taxi's typically operate in areas swarming with pedestrians and traffic. Not where you would likely want to risk a new technology.
Terry

numerobis

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2766 on: December 14, 2017, 01:18:49 PM »
Drivers are something like half the cost of running a cab:
- Medallion $200k, which is about 10k/year in interest costs (at 5%)
- Car $40k every four years, about $10k a year
- Gas single-digit thousands a year.
- Driver $30k a year.


TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2767 on: December 14, 2017, 01:53:50 PM »
Drivers are something like half the cost of running a cab:
- Medallion $200k, which is about 10k/year in interest costs (at 5%)
- Car $40k every four years, about $10k a year
- Gas single-digit thousands a year.
- Driver $30k a year.
I drove cab for a few months in Las Vegas in the early 70's.
No medallions to individuals in Las Vegas.
At that time it was a clean 50% off the meter, and they paid everything.


Since then they chopped off the "open the door" charge, a slice for extra fuel costs that was tacked on when fuel was high, but never came back, and a fixed fee for dispatching.


It was a good paying job at one time, but, in that venue at least, it's not what it once was.
Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2768 on: December 14, 2017, 02:56:54 PM »
Encouraging signs.  Tesla sent out the first notifications in late November for many “regular” Model 3 reservation holders (i.e., not Tesla employees) to choose the options they want on their cars.  Now some parts (gears, axles) are being shipped by air to ensure quick delivery.

Tesla Model 3 production is increasing to 5,000 units per week, say suppliers
Quote
Several Tesla suppliers are now reporting that Model 3 production is increasing rapidly and they are back to working on Tesla’s guidance of 5,000 units per week in December, which was delayed last month.

In October, a few days before Tesla’s earnings and the announcement of the Model 3 production ramp-up delay, Taiwanese auto component maker Hota Industrial Mfg. Co announced that Tesla slashed its orders for Model 3 parts by 40% (5,000 per week to 3,000).

Now the same supplier, which makes gears and axles, told Taiwanese media that Tesla increased the demand for parts back to 5,000 units per week this month.

Chairman Shen Guorong even said that they now have to mobilize the whole company and work overtime in order to comply with the change and that they are even shipping parts by airplanes instead of boats.

The report also cites other Taiwanese suppliers for Tesla’s Model 3 saying that production is now increasing following the bottlenecks. ...
https://electrek.co/2017/12/14/tesla-model-3-production-increasing-to-5000-units-per-week-suppliers/

Automation!  Get those humans off the production line, and let ‘er rip. ;D
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numerobis

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2769 on: December 14, 2017, 03:14:05 PM »
Terry, if you have numbers suggesting that the cost of transport isn't much affected by the cost of drivers, do share.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2770 on: December 14, 2017, 04:55:43 PM »
“Uber paid out $2.72 billion to driver contractors in the first half of 2015, just under 75% of bookings.”
https://www.forbes.com/sites/briansolomon/2016/01/12/leaked-ubers-financials-show-huge-growth-even-bigger-losses/


Which is no doubt why the Uber CEO was quoted as saying that in 2020, if Telsas are autonomous, he’d want to buy all 500,000 of the estimated 2020 production.  And that he has, reportedly, ordered 100,000 Mercedes self-driving cars.
https://electrek.co/2016/03/18/uber-order-mercedes-100000-autonomous-cars/

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Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2771 on: December 14, 2017, 05:08:41 PM »
Looking at taxi companies, they aren't buying $40,000 cars.   I see a lot of Camrys (Camries?) and more recently South Korean cars.  I'd guess mid-$20k range cars.

The median annual Taxi Driver salary is $34,346.  I don't know what employer overhead is now but when I was budgeting payroll I used 28%.  That brings driver cost to $44k.

If the company is keeping the cab in service ~16 hours then double driver cost and it's $88k for drivers.  $6k to $7k per year to pay for the car if it's used for four years.  Eliminating drivers would make the cost of operating a taxi service vastly cheaper.

Uber has created a presence in public transportation.  It's built a brand name.  Uber can start phasing in self-driving cars and be far ahead of companies that have yet to start up.  And Uber can price in at or just under the cost of using a driver and make extra profit until competition comes into the market forcing their rates down.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2772 on: December 14, 2017, 07:35:28 PM »
Starting to see more EV truck prototypes become production reality:

Daimler starts delivering all-electric trucks in Europe
Quote
The FUSO eCanter is meant for urban routes with a range of only 100 kilometers (62 miles) and a load capacity up to three and a half tons – depending on body and usage. The vehicle is powered by an electric powertrain with six high voltage lithium ion battery packs with 420 V and 13.8 kWh each for a total of ~83 kWh of capacity.
https://electrek.co/2017/12/14/daimler-fuso-ecanter-all-electric-trucks-europe/
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2773 on: December 14, 2017, 10:03:45 PM »
Spotted this electric van making deliveries in Rome about four weeks ago.


Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2774 on: December 15, 2017, 12:09:04 AM »
Tesla Semi and other electric trucks to be popular in Ontario with new $75,000 govt incentive
Quote
After Tesla started taking reservations for its new electric truck, a surprising number of those pre-orders were coming from Canada.  Now we learn that fleet operators and truck drivers in Ontario, Canada’s biggest province, are going to have access to an important incentive.

The Ontario government is about to announce the new program, reported Reuters:
“The program will offer buyers rebates of up to 60 percent of the incremental purchase cost of an electric truck, compared with an equivalent diesel vehicle, up to a cap of C$75,000 per vehicle, according to documents seen by Reuters.”

That’s the equivalent of an incentive worth up to $59,000 USD.   Ontario already has a significant EV incentive of up to $14,000 CAD for passenger cars, but with the new Green Commercial Vehicle Program, electric trucks would now be included.

Electrek’s Take:
Interestingly, the news comes just after BYD announced a new electric truck assembly factory in Ontario. The company is likely going to benefit from this new incentive. ...
https://electrek.co/2017/12/14/tesla-semi-other-electric-trucks-ontario-govt-incentive/
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numerobis

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2775 on: December 15, 2017, 01:30:38 AM »
Quote
Uber has created a presence in public transportation.  It's built a brand name.  Uber can start phasing in self-driving cars and be far ahead of companies that have yet to start up.  And Uber can price in at or just under the cost of using a driver and make extra profit until competition comes into the market forcing their rates down.

If it survives long enough. I've heard (second-hand) of AI researchers at Uber feeling that the music is likely to stop soon, but hey the money is good and the work is fun.

Tesla and Waymo seem much more likely to get through to shipping this stuff. The other companies are years behind, but could catch up.

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2776 on: December 15, 2017, 10:48:37 AM »
Electric delivery vans are an interesting area, as they pollute in cities and are rapidly expanding due to Internet shopping. Does anyone know the average daily km driven by a delivery van in a city? I suspect it's quite low, due to all of the stopping for small deliveries/pick-ups. Also, electric motors are ideal for stop-start driving. Most vans also return to their depots one or more times during the day, allowing top-up charging. I imagine that if it makes financial and logistical sense, the big courier/delivery companies will make big orders soon.

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2777 on: December 15, 2017, 01:00:27 PM »
Spotted this electric van making deliveries in Rome about four weeks ago.

I drove this electric van to a V2G (dis)charging point at Aston University recently:

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2017/08/an-exeter-nissan-e-nv200-heads-north/
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2778 on: December 15, 2017, 04:52:41 PM »
Perhaps it's time for cities to issue operating permits for vans within their city limits.  Grandfather in ICE vans (for a limited number of years) and force delivery companies to move to battery powered.

There could be a process for getting a 'one day' exception.

Neven

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2779 on: December 15, 2017, 07:20:46 PM »
That Nissan E-NV200 is the most interesting EV for me, but maybe next year something more interesting/cheaper comes along. I like the fact that you can stuff 7 people in there and that it's V2G-ready, but a 60 kWh battery would be nice too.
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« Reply #2780 on: December 15, 2017, 07:44:26 PM »
BenB:

Interesting and valid point regarding stop and start.  Just think of all the gas/energy that is wasted by ICE vehicles......epecially in big cities.  All that wasted energy....that will NOT be wasted in the future.  Atlanta, New York City, LA, Houston, etc..etc...etc.
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2781 on: December 15, 2017, 08:32:46 PM »
That Nissan E-NV200 is the most interesting EV for me, but maybe next year something more interesting/cheaper comes along.

Unfortunately the 7 seater version costs considerably more than one with a standard van body. The 2018 model will have a 40 kWh battery pack, but 60 kWh is rumoured to be arriving in the not too distant future.

Here's the "Amsterdam taxi" flavour:
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2782 on: December 15, 2017, 09:11:35 PM »
Spotted this electric van making deliveries in Rome about four weeks ago.

I drove this electric van to a V2G (dis)charging point at Aston University recently:

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2017/08/an-exeter-nissan-e-nv200-heads-north/


The body appears to be a near knock-off of my rather aged minivan.
I love it, the wife hates it, but agrees that it's fabulous for weekend camping trips.
If available as hybrids, at the right price point, I think they'd sell like hot cakes.
Terry


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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2783 on: December 15, 2017, 09:48:29 PM »
If available as hybrids, at the right price point, I think they'd sell like hot cakes.
Terry

Nissan are "idealogically" opposed to hybrids I'm afraid.

Mitsubishi do a V2G capable PHEV. However it doesn't look much like a minivan!
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2784 on: December 15, 2017, 10:06:43 PM »
Unfortunately the 7 seater version costs considerably more than one with a standard van body.

Yes, I know, that's why I'm holding out and hoping my Opel Combo CNG will do so too.

Talking about stop-start: Last week the telephone rang in the middle of the night. It was the wife of an acquaintance who begged me to drive her paper delivering rounds with her, as her husband was too ill to get up. It was -11° C outside and I had barely slept two hours, but off we went. Start-stop, start-stop, delivering the Austrian version of the Daily Mail. By the time we were done, I had seen all of the town. But all that time I was thinking: What a waste, what a waste, what a waste, and no wonder their car keeps breaking down.

I was depressed for two days.  ;D
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2785 on: December 15, 2017, 10:28:47 PM »
If you missed, or were disappointed in the quality of, the Tesla semi truck and roadster unveiling (the livestream/videos were ragged in spots), Tesla has finally released a cleaned up version. Here it is:

If you prefer a 9-minute supercut, Electrek includes one here:
Tesla releases full video of Semi and Roadster unveiling event
https://electrek.co/2017/12/14/tesla-full-video-semi-roadster-unveiling-event/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

idunno

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2786 on: December 15, 2017, 11:57:41 PM »
Sigmetnow...

Just curious...

1. Of the several thousand posts which you've made on here, many of which concern Elon/Tesla, can you recall one which would differ substantially from what Elon/Tesla would expect a professional PR operator to post on their behalf, in return for appropriate remuneration?

Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2787 on: December 16, 2017, 12:03:45 AM »
Sigmetnow...

Just curious...

1. Of the several thousand posts which you've made on here, many of which concern Elon/Tesla, can you recall one which would differ substantially from what Elon/Tesla would expect a professional PR operator to post on their behalf, in return for appropriate remuneration?

Go away jerk.

idunno

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2788 on: December 16, 2017, 12:39:25 AM »
Go away, but whence...

<snip>

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2000.msg136364/topicseen.html#msg136364

Bob Wallace, Sigmetnow, Elon/Tesla, and I think I'll pass.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 11:05:50 AM by Neven »

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2789 on: December 16, 2017, 01:12:29 AM »
As the Tesla fleet has increased, Tesla has been cutting back on the availability of “Unlimited Free Supercharging.”  Today the company addressed commercial use of the service — eliminating it for newly-purchased cars going forward.

Tesla introduces new ‘Supercharger Fair Use’ policy to focus on long distance travel and deter commercial use
Quote
Tesla is introducing a new ‘fair use’ policy for its Supercharger network today. This is to deter the commercial use of its charging stations, which has become a problem in some markets, and to focus on the original intended use of the Supercharger network: enabling long-distance travel in electric vehicles.

The automaker says that any new or used Tesla vehicles purchased after today and is used for commercial purposes cannot use any Tesla Supercharger worldwide.
...
https://electrek.co/2017/12/15/tesla-supercharger-fair-use-policy-deter-commercial-use/

From the Tesla legal page:
”We encourage the commercial use of Tesla vehicles while using appropriate charging solutions. Please reach out to your local sales contact to explore vehicle and charging options that suit your needs.”
https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/about/legal?redirect=no#supercharger-fair-use
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idunno

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2790 on: December 16, 2017, 01:40:46 AM »
As the Tesla fleet has increased, Tesla has been cutting back on the availability of “Unlimited Free Supercharging.”  Today the company addressed commercial use of the service — eliminating it for newly-purchased cars going forward.

Tesla introduces new ‘Supercharger Fair Use’ policy to focus on long distance travel and deter commercial use
Quote
Tesla is introducing a new ‘fair use’ policy for its Supercharger network today. This is to deter the commercial use of its charging stations, which has become a problem in some markets, and to focus on the original intended use of the Supercharger network: enabling long-distance travel in electric vehicles.

The automaker says that any new or used Tesla vehicles purchased after today and is used for commercial purposes cannot use any Tesla Supercharger worldwide.
...
https://electrek.co/2017/12/15/tesla-supercharger-fair-use-policy-deter-commercial-use/

From the Tesla legal page:
”We encourage the commercial use of Tesla vehicles while using appropriate charging solutions. Please reach out to your local sales contact to explore vehicle and charging options that suit your needs.”
https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/about/legal?redirect=no#supercharger-fair-use

Hi sigmetnow,

I'm sure this is a worry for those  people who have a legal responsibily for Tesla vehicles sold, but...

the question above???

Bob Wallace

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2791 on: December 16, 2017, 03:29:55 AM »
"I think I'll pass."

It's very simple.  If you don't wish to read the information that Sigmetnow brings to this site then just don't visit the site.


TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2792 on: December 16, 2017, 08:50:00 AM »
Idunno


I think you'll find that Bob & Sigmet each offer original thoughts when arguing the pros and cons of Tesla's products. Hardly what would be expected from a professional PR source.


Put up an argument for or against, but save the ad hominem until it's plain that you've already lost.  ::)
Terry

oren

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2793 on: December 16, 2017, 10:23:01 AM »
At the risk of responding to an ad hominem statement, which I dislike, I will just say that it's true that there are "optimists" and pessimists" on the forum, with Bob Wallace and Sigmetnow certainly belonging to the optimistic camp. That DOES not mean they are PR oriented, and their contribution to the forum is priceless, in fact they are among the top posters.

Neven

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2794 on: December 16, 2017, 11:06:11 AM »
Agreed.
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2795 on: December 16, 2017, 12:17:43 PM »
At the risk of being accused of taking Riversimple's shilling, this is especially for idunno:

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2014/06/the-open-source-electric-vehicle-hall-of-shame/

At the risk of being accused of taking Amazon's silver dollar:

"The most revolutionary thing one can do always is to proclaim loudly what is happening" - Rosa Luxemburg

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2796 on: December 16, 2017, 02:31:08 PM »
In other news... ;) :


In historic move, Hawai'i island leaders pledge to transition ground transportation to 100 percent renewable by 2045

Additionally, “The mayors of Honolulu and Maui also pledged to transition all of their fleet vehicles to 100 percent renewable power by 2035.”

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/in-historic-move-hawaii-island-leaders-pledge-to-transition-ground-transportation-to-100-percent-renewable-by-2045-300570554.html

Although 2045 seems rather far out for their goal, don’t forget the costs of shipping all those new EVs to the islands makes it a more expensive proposition than most.
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2797 on: December 16, 2017, 02:43:09 PM »
In other news... ;) :

In historic move, Hawai'i island leaders pledge to transition ground transportation to 100 percent renewable by 2045

Although 2045 seems rather far out for their goal, don’t forget the costs of shipping all those new EVs to the islands makes it a more expensive proposition than most.
Don't forget The Jones Act that makes shipping wthin the States so expensive. Probably cheaper to get the stuff from Japan or China.
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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2798 on: December 16, 2017, 05:25:22 PM »
Quote
Although 2045 seems rather far out for their goal, don’t forget the costs of shipping all those new EVs to the islands makes it a more expensive proposition than most.

They're going to be shipping something to the Islands.  Might as well be battery powered.  And fuel costs are very high, you have to ship it for every mile you drive with an ICEV.  The saving grace is that there is not a lot of distance to be driven, but it does sting when you fill up.

I think Hawaii might be one of the places to be first to all EV sales.

ghoti

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #2799 on: December 16, 2017, 05:33:34 PM »
Quote
I think Hawaii might be one of the places to be first to all EV sales.
and very oddly, given the short distances, Hawaii is one of the only places I've ever had range anxiety is a gas car! Turns out short distances sometimes mean very limited fueling options unlike on the mainland where gas stations are everywhere.

EVs will be perfect there.