Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....  (Read 632083 times)

GoSouthYoungins

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 756
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 35
  • Likes Given: 106
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5650 on: September 16, 2018, 05:53:35 PM »
if not, STFU

I don't have a problem with your opinions, but if you don't want things to escalate, you need to put more thought into your style. It would also make your arguments more convincing.

And when I say 'you don't want things to escalate', I mean I don't want things to escalate. I want to be able to unsubscribe from threads without having to coming back again within 48 hours.

noted. apologies.

can you chime in occasionally when accusations of shilling for Big Oil get thrown around, or is that seen as valid? I think calling ppl trolls when they are not trolling is an escalation. I think calling people paid shills is an escalation.
big time oops

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6499
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 318
  • Likes Given: 214
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5651 on: September 16, 2018, 07:49:05 PM »
can you chime in occasionally when accusations of shilling for Big Oil get thrown around, or is that seen as valid? I think calling ppl trolls when they are not trolling is an escalation. I think calling people paid shills is an escalation.

If it happens too often, I will. But I'm not a policeman.

OK, back on-topic. What would a Tesla filing or bankruptcy mean for EVs? Would someone step in, or would we get another EV-1 scenario?
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

GoSouthYoungins

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 756
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 35
  • Likes Given: 106
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5652 on: September 16, 2018, 08:49:07 PM »
can you chime in occasionally when accusations of shilling for Big Oil get thrown around, or is that seen as valid? I think calling ppl trolls when they are not trolling is an escalation. I think calling people paid shills is an escalation.

If it happens too often, I will. But I'm not a policeman.

OK, back on-topic. What would a Tesla filing or bankruptcy mean for EVs? Would someone step in, or would we get another EV-1 scenario?

I think there could be significant enough damage to the brand that Tesla may cease to exist. The gigafactory will get bought by somebody, cuz batteries will continue to get more and more important. Not sure if it will be auto related though. The Fremont plant will probably go idle for a while. The supercharger network is the most curious asset. I have no idea.

Tesla has about the same market cap that Enron did. I wouldn't be surprised to see a Tesla bankruptcy burst the global everything bubble. Does the world order survive? Does china lead a new coalition to challenge the West with a gold/silver backed money system? Would there be any hope of addressing climate change with china in the drivers seat? I doubt it. I think we have to hope that we are all totally in the dark, platos cave style, and that some secret group rules everything and tricks us all about everything. But, I doubt it.
big time oops

oren

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3353
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 382
  • Likes Given: 842
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5653 on: September 16, 2018, 09:42:17 PM »
If Tesla goes bankrupt now, the big auto companies will try to re-bury EVs. And might succeed too. If it goes bankrupt in 2-3 years, re-burial should be impossible.

Archimid

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1748
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 101
  • Likes Given: 120
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5654 on: September 16, 2018, 09:47:17 PM »
If Tesla goes bankwupt then the advent of the electric car decelerates. The genie is out of the bottle, EV's are better than ICEV's. The world will continue slowly moving in that direction, but not fast enough.

Without Tesla carving automotive market share across all automotive segments car companies will take their time to bring to the market very large volumes of EVs. Someone may eventually emerge as a clear leader and push the rest of the pack, but it will be years before anyone has the EV production capacity Tesla has.

China would certainly have a commanding lead in battery production, but their lack of automotive influence in the west means world wide EV adoption will be one sided for a couple of very vital years.

Also battery adoption for home, comercial, industrial and grid use will slow down.

The difference between the bankwuptcy scenario and the scenario I expect is that the pressure Tesla is placing across automotive and energy markets should generate innovation and an acceleration of the transition away from fossil fuels.

I don't think the Arctic is saved on either scenario and unless geoengineering is used, civilization collapses anyway.

However, the more homes with their own power source, the more resilient we become. The more communities set up with renewable microgrids, the more diversified the risk. The more comercial and government buildings that can at least partially operate on their own power the more civilization will survive.

All of this while at the same time significantly reducing emissions, just in case the Arctic holds long enough for us to remove all that garbage from the air.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

NeilT

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 808
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 62
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5655 on: September 16, 2018, 10:58:45 PM »
OK, back on-topic. What would a Tesla filing or bankruptcy mean for EVs? Would someone step in, or would we get another EV-1 scenario?

Neven if you had asked that question with the political situation 10 years ago, I think the answer would have been clear.  Today it is not that clear.  Probably the most likely result would be a slowing down of EV production around the world.

Today the question is surrounded by other questions.  Is the EU really serious about the end of new ICE vehicles by 2040?  Is China going to go all in on EV and try to resolve some of their own pollution problems and at the same time create a large enough EV market to support serious sales world wide?  Are states like California going to make laws which outlaw ICE sales and drive the adoption of EV whether the people want them or not?

Also we know that VAG and other manufacturers in the EU only got off as easily as they did over the diesel emissions scandal because they committed to EV production and a transition to EV as the core vehicle product in the next decade and a half.

I think we have long gone past the point where the survival or Tesla, or not, will derail the transition from ICE to EV.  The model has been proven, the technology is there.

At some point we are going to get a breakthrough in battery power which gives us 3 x the deliverable power that Li gives today and at that point we're going to see EV's with a 900 mile range possibility and much cheaper EV's with a 300 mile range and a lot lighter too.

There is simply too much impetus and too many actual products on the market; for EV's to now be tied to the success or failure of Tesla.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13823
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 193
  • Likes Given: 110
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5656 on: September 17, 2018, 12:45:53 AM »
The slow death of diesels continues;  the 2019 Nissan LEAF still lacks range improvement;  and a Tesla owner recorded a trip averaging 225 Wh/mile:

BMW cancels the new 540d xDrive after only a few months, and drops diesel options on other all models in the U.S.
BMW cancels all diesels from North America for 2019
Quote
When the 328d goes, it will be the last diesel car available in the U.S. from a German brand. Mercedes-Benz, a carmaker that has sometimes been considered near-synonymous with diesel, offered no 2018 model year diesel cars in the United States. Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche have also done away with diesel-powered offerings. Porsche's diesel engines available in the Cayenne were provided by Volkswagen.
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/09/11/bmw-cancels-diesels-united-states-2019/
(This is not to say that BMW is ready to go all-electric.  They are currently betting on hybrids and “performance oriented gasoline engines.”  ::))

And here is BMW’s EV concept car for 2021:
BMW unveils its iNEXT next-gen electric crossover concept, describes it as ‘building block for the future’
https://electrek.co/2018/09/15/bmw-inext-electric-crossover-concept/


Nissan announces 2019 LEAF US pricing, says longer-range version available ‘in the future’
https://electrek.co/2018/09/14/nissan-leaf-2019-us-pricing-longer-range-version/
Starts at a MSRP of $29,990, same as 2018.  The much-anticipated longer-range version “will be available in the future” — but no details were released.


Tesla recently offered owners a free trial of Autopilot.  (They’ve done this before, so don’t freak. ;))  This owner used the opportunity to test their car’s energy efficiency:
“During the 2 week AP trial, I tracked our #Model3 energy consumption. Using AP as much as possible and on a road trip to the coast, the @Tesla Model 3 is still more efficient than our leaf. …”
https://twitter.com/snoozethroughf1/status/1041054665461260288
225 Wh/mile.  Image at the link.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

jacksmith4tx

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 266
    • View Profile
    • Photon mine
  • Liked: 25
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5657 on: September 17, 2018, 02:49:58 AM »
Several of the Volt owners had purchased their cars used, as well.

Thank you, Sustainable Tallahassee!
Thanks for the trip report Tor. We have a group here in DFW that sponsors EV days and solar home tours too. http://www.ntreg.org/

I think I made a Volt sale yesterday. The lawnmower guy working across the street came over and asked me a lot of questions about my Volt because his wife wants one. I gave him ride in my car and he seemed pretty impressed. I emailed him the names of some good websites to shop for used and lease returns and told him the best deals are seasonal and linked with annual lease promotions.

Earlier this year Consumer Reports said the Volt has the single highest customer satisfaction rating-- 93% of any car in the market, even higher than the Porsche 911 with 91%. I guess I should enjoy it while it lasts as Chevy hasn't committed to Volt production beyond 2022.

PS: I have a 1500 watt AC pure sine wave inverter I can plug into my Volt and run my critical loads if the grid fails. Unfortunately my solar panels shut down if the grid goes down so this is still not optimal solution. A work in progress.
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

GoSouthYoungins

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 756
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 35
  • Likes Given: 106
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5658 on: September 17, 2018, 06:00:19 AM »
The slow death of diesels continues.

Tesla recently offered owners a free trial of Autopilot.  (They’ve done this before, so don’t freak. ;)

Diesel, maybe. But gasoline, no. 2018 is projected to see the most ICE vehicle sales ever. (who cares about the specific weight of the fuel for used in ICE vehicles???)

Despite the hype, Tesla is way behind in autopilot. Many car companies are ahead of Tesla, and there are even some companies who no one has ever heard that Tesla is behind. Tesla has been taking payments from customers for FSD (full self driving) for about 2 years, even though the tech doesn't exist. They claim the customers are paying for the hardware which will be capable of getting updated to FSD once it exist. Of course, how is anyone supposed to know what hardware is going to be required for some yet unrealized tech. In fact, on the most recent earnings call, Tesla admitted they had a new component which will be necessary for FSD. But that's just a little chip or something. There will have to be sensors and who knows what else.

Please stop posting this, EV-revolution-now, Tesla-is-amazing BS. I don't enjoy refuting it, but I will not let it echo around totally unaddressed making everyone ill-informed.
big time oops

oren

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3353
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 382
  • Likes Given: 842
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5659 on: September 17, 2018, 07:57:56 AM »
GSY - so you are posting out of concern of anyone being ill-informed, and this is why you respond to anything at all that mentions Tesla? I am sure the forum thanks you for your concern.
In this case though,  the point of the post was driving an EV using only 0.225 kWh/mile, not a discussion of Tesla's AP.

GoSouthYoungins

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 756
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 35
  • Likes Given: 106
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5660 on: September 17, 2018, 08:44:34 AM »
the point of the post was driving an EV using only 0.225 kWh/mile, not a discussion of Tesla's AP.

okay  ;)
big time oops

Archimid

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1748
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 101
  • Likes Given: 120
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5661 on: September 17, 2018, 01:21:52 PM »
Quote
Despite the hype, Tesla is way behind in autopilot. Many car companies are ahead of Tesla, and there are even some companies who no one has ever heard that Tesla is behind.

Oh yeah way behind. Except for numbers of people using the software, numbers of real world miles driven, roads in which it can be used, sales. And let's ignore the thousands of new users joining Tesla's Autopilot fleet with almost every Model 3. Totally behind I tell you. Totally behind. /s

The only technology even close to Tesla is GM Cruise. It can only be used on the relatively few roads GM mapped. They only sell this in one very low volume model.

Waymo keeps self driving in very limited roads and using simulated driven miles for data (big mistake). 

All the companies have a similar thing to Autopilot but they are all limited to lower speeds or particular road scenarios. I don't see any real fleet learning from any other company.

Tesla's fleet learning is far ahead of the competition and increasing with every Model 3.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

TerryM

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4268
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 60
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5662 on: September 17, 2018, 01:27:14 PM »
Are self driving autos something that we need, or even want?


Terry

Archimid

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1748
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 101
  • Likes Given: 120
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5663 on: September 17, 2018, 01:44:59 PM »
Electric for All

https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/stories/now-the-crucial-phase-begins-4191

Quote

EVs are still part of a niche market. What’s missing to bring about the breakthrough?

Thomas Ulbrich: Basically, there are two types of EVs at the moment: the first has long ranges and digital connectivity, but is very expensive. The second is more or less affordable, but often not particularly attractive. People want both, though: a great electric car at an affordable price. That will bring about the breakthrough for EVs. And that is precisely what we will be putting on the road with the I.D.

How are you going about it?

Christian Senger: With the modular electric toolkit (MEB) we have developed a platform designed specifically for electric cars. The I.D. models aren’t combustion engine versions that have been converted, they are 100%, thoroughbred electric vehicles. And they will always be online and upgrade- and update-ready. So we’re making optimal use of the possibilities this technology brings …

Thomas Ulbrich: … and creating massive economies of scale at the same time. Some 10 million Group vehicles will be based on the MEB in the first wave alone. The MEB is the economic and technological backbone of the electric car for all.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6499
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 318
  • Likes Given: 214
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5664 on: September 17, 2018, 02:53:07 PM »
Are self driving autos something that we need, or even want?

Terry

It may be a good idea for motorways to increase efficiency, reduce accidents and congestion, etc. Some have espoused the idea that far less vehicles are needed if cars could self-drive and be shared more easily. I don't know about that, but I don't live in a city, so my needs are different.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

crandles

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2163
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 31
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5665 on: September 17, 2018, 03:48:43 PM »
Are self driving autos something that we need, or even want?

Terry

No doubt there are petrolheads that don't want them. Elderly people worried about losing mobility certainly should and do want them assuming they will improve safety and not lose mobility. But more important than such special interests, driver is usually largest cost of car/van transport so I think it is coming whether we like it or not. Reduced cost is likely to result in more usage. We may not like or want the effects of this, but it probably makes economic sense.

You will note I expect more congestion from this not less. There may be fewer vehicles more easily shared which makes economic sense (less cost) but those fewer vehicles will do a lot more miles such that there will be more vehicle miles making more congestion.

So it is lower cost driving this which we want, even if we don't like consequences.

I do wonder about other effects, does concentrating on difficult tasks like driving safely with poor eyesight keep the brain active and help reduce speed of degeneration of the mind.




Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13823
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 193
  • Likes Given: 110
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5666 on: September 17, 2018, 04:06:10 PM »
Are self driving autos something that we need, or even want?

Terry

100 people die in car accidents evey day.  Even considering merely driver-assist technology, let alone full self driving:  automous driving saves lives and prevents injuries.  (Example:  40% fewer Tesla crashes in cars with AP, compared to cars without it.) 
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

TerryM

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4268
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 60
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5667 on: September 17, 2018, 04:49:40 PM »
Are self driving autos something that we need, or even want?

Terry

It may be a good idea for motorways to increase efficiency, reduce accidents and congestion, etc. Some have espoused the idea that far less vehicles are needed if cars could self-drive and be shared more easily. I don't know about that, but I don't live in a city, so my needs are different.


I've lived my life in moderate sized cities. Public transportation has been sporadic and undependable at best.


Sig, possibly in another thread, recently posted of a battery powered train being developed by Bombardier. This would be powered and recharged by intermittent overhead wires and allows a seamless transition to E-Rail. Wonderful stuff for those of us that appreciate having, or being a part of an audience while commuting.


If this were to be extended to E-Buses that recharged themselves whenever they returned to major thoroughfares we might end up with an urban transportation system that would work for everyone.


I see no advantage to a driverless car, but recognize that it would eliminate millions of jobs. Buses, trolleys, light rail, subways, and high speed rail all have a place in a sustainable future. Cars, garages, driveways, charging stations, life might go on without them.


Those who are so agoraphobic that they don't wish to share a vehicle with others should at least be willing to pilot the damn thing.
Terry

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13823
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 193
  • Likes Given: 110
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5668 on: September 17, 2018, 04:59:32 PM »

Those who are so agoraphobic that they don't wish to share a vehicle with others should at least be willing to pilot the damn thing.
Terry

Whether I’m in a car or a bus, I don’t think I’d want to share the road with this person.  They’ll either be driving like a bat out of hell, or near walking speed.  ;D
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

crandles

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2163
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 31
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5669 on: September 17, 2018, 05:19:11 PM »
I see no advantage to a driverless car, but recognize that it would eliminate millions of jobs. Buses, trolleys, light rail, subways, and high speed rail all have a place in a sustainable future. Cars, garages, driveways, charging stations, life might go on without them.

Those who are so agoraphobic that they don't wish to share a vehicle with others should at least be willing to pilot the damn thing.
Terry

>eliminate millions of jobs
Do you see this as a good thing - how society get wealthier, or a bad thing - job losses & capitalism, or something that makes it inevitable or ... ? 'no advantage to a driverless car' seems a bit weird; disadvantages outweighing advantages I could understand even if I disagree.

>Buses, trolleys, light rail, subways, and high speed rail all have a place
An elderly person with mobility issues and poor eyesight might take issue and suggest a driverless car also has a place.

GoSouthYoungins

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 756
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 35
  • Likes Given: 106
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5670 on: September 17, 2018, 06:08:20 PM »
(Example:  40% fewer Tesla crashes in cars with AP, compared to cars without it.)

Wow, that is a ringing endorsement for self driving. Cuz if the worst self driving tech (Tesla) with the most misleading name (Auto Pilot) leads to less crashes, it really does speak volumes about how much safer self driving is.
big time oops

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13823
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 193
  • Likes Given: 110
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5671 on: September 17, 2018, 06:39:05 PM »
...
>Buses, trolleys, light rail, subways, and high speed rail all have a place
An elderly person with mobility issues and poor eyesight might take issue and suggest a driverless car also has a place.

Not to mention the millions who don’t live near any mass transit options.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

TerryM

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4268
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 60
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5672 on: September 17, 2018, 06:40:15 PM »


>eliminate millions of jobs
Do you see this as a good thing - how society get wealthier, or a bad thing - job losses & capitalism, or something that makes it inevitable or ... ? 'no advantage to a driverless car' seems a bit weird; disadvantages outweighing advantages I could understand even if I disagree.

>Buses, trolleys, light rail, subways, and high speed rail all have a place
An elderly person with mobility issues and poor eyesight might take issue and suggest a driverless car also has a place.
Chris

My take on it is that we're not suffering from a lack of semi skilled workers. More dollars for those with easy access to capital isn't high on my list of priorities.


I've personally past middle age some time ago, and while my vision has improved since cataract operations, and my mobility is much better than when I was in a chair, I can't imagine a time when I would have wanted to own, rent, or hire a driverless vehicle.


If my health was compromised I'd prefer to be in the company of someone capable of observing my problems and reacting appropriately. If I were relatively hale, even though frail, I'd prefer to converse with someone other than HAL.


Why do you believe that the elderly would prefer a solitary journey to one in the company of others?
Terry

Archimid

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1748
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 101
  • Likes Given: 120
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5673 on: September 17, 2018, 07:04:11 PM »
Electric pit stop

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/technology/porsche-e-mobility-fast-charging-modular-building-blocks-system-electricity-grid-visitor-frequency-space-constraints-power-electronics-cooling-unit-pit-stop-missione-taycan-engineering-2018-1-15796.html

Quote
For the first time, economic viability and user-friendly design are brought together in a charging solution that will help electromobility gain greater acceptance.

Looking at the fast-charging stations in use today, the disadvantages of the system are readily apparent at a glance. At present, all of the components needed for charging are installed in every single cabinet: transformer, galvanic isolation, power electronics, cooling and connectivity—significant outlays that make each individual charging station disproportionately expensive. So for Porsche Engineering, a charging park with a new system architecture and a new generation of charging stations quickly crystallized as an alternative. This new generation of devices is characterized by impressive fast-charging technology. It provides an attractive interface to the customer and, thanks to low operating costs, also presents a compelling business case for a wide variety of operators. The innovative charging park system designed by Porsche Engineering also provides the capability to charge the batteries of multiple electric cars at the same time. Thanks to 800- volt technology, batteries can store enough energy for roughly 400 kilometers of range in just 20 minutes. Enough time for a coffee break at the rest stop or a few errands in the supermarket or shopping area.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

TerryM

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4268
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 60
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5674 on: September 17, 2018, 07:04:30 PM »

Not to mention the millions who don’t live near any mass transit options.


Even those in rural enclaves had access to bus service in the not too distant past. I'm personally enamored of the possibility of E-Buses that could avail themselves of overhead power when on major roads, then operate on battery power while plying the residential blocks. Very similar to the Bombardier system you posted about for rail.


I think we'll need to give up something if we want to survive what is coming. Many millions world wide live their lives without cars. It can be done, and with the right infrastructure it could be a more pleasurable lifestyle.


Terry

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13823
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 193
  • Likes Given: 110
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5675 on: September 17, 2018, 07:44:30 PM »
125-mile (200 km) range.  “Geared toward urban distribution.”

Mercedes-Benz delivers first 10 eActros all-electric heavy-duty trucks
https://electrek.co/2018/09/17/mercedes-benz-eactros-all-electric-heavy-duty-trucks-deliveries/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

litesong

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 20
  • Likes Given: 15
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5676 on: September 17, 2018, 08:51:50 PM »
The slow death of diesels continues......
Tho I never believed "clean" diesel hype, & the VW diesel emission scandal didn't take me by surprise(except for their extended criminality), I was attracted to the Chevy Eco Cruze or the diesel Chevy Cruze for a while. The Chevy diesel Cruze was good(?), but only comprised 2% of Cruze sales. My featherfoot could have gotten highs of 55+MPG. However, my close Chevy dealer would never give me good deals (on either the Eco Cruze or the diesel) & he told me to go get a Hyundai Elantra. Elantra had its own problems with misrepresenting MPG. Eventually, I did buy a good deal gas 6speed auto Elantra & averaged 39MPG, with highs of 45 MPG. The auto Elantra has been TOTALLY trouble-free, & later, I bought a superb deal 6speed manual Elantra.....which has had highs of 46MPG AND ALSO TOTALLY TROUBLE-FREE. With both Elantras approaching a total of 120,000 miles, nothing has ever gone wrong with them.     
« Last Edit: September 17, 2018, 09:12:05 PM by litesong »

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6499
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 318
  • Likes Given: 214
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5677 on: September 17, 2018, 09:03:32 PM »
With both Elantras approaching a total of 120,000 miles, nothing has ever gone wrong with them.

How much CO2 is that?
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

TerryM

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4268
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 60
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5678 on: September 17, 2018, 09:08:08 PM »
With both Elantras approaching a total of 120,000 miles, nothing has ever gone wrong with them.

How much CO2 is that?


Probably about as much as a cruise ship belches in clearing port. ::)
Terry

magnamentis

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1967
    • View Profile
    • Philosophy Ethics Numerology Mikrocirkulation Vaskular Therapie Gesundheit Blut Gesundheit Schmerzen Multiple Sklerose Diabetes Immunsystem Fibromyalgia Modular Mobile Computing iOS Software OSX Android Custom Rom Rooted
  • Liked: 77
  • Likes Given: 106
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5679 on: September 17, 2018, 09:12:03 PM »
If Tesla goes bankrupt now, the big auto companies will try to re-bury EVs. And might succeed too. If it goes bankrupt in 2-3 years, re-burial should be impossible.

i think this is the first time i 100% disagree, sorry

the process is unstoppable and too much has been invested by the big auto-makers and the number of models will multiply, about double the number of models have gone into production for 2019 release and 2-3 times more models are in for 2020, those are models that are already road-tested and basically ready to go after through testing.

i usually would have agreed because it's common practice indeed but this time it's simply too late for various, not only the above mentioned reasons.

even consumers more and more start to feel great owning an EV, some kind of point of no return has been reached. soon one will be seen as an outlaw using a full big size ICE powered car, similar to public smoking and using a cellphone in restaurants etc.

i remember when i was one of  a few hundred cell-phone owners ( suitcase size LOL ) and one was admired while nowadays one has to keep it quiet and get out to talk ;)
http://magnamentis.com
Knowledge, Understanding & Insight Are Among The Best Sources For Personal Freedom & Vitality !

litesong

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 20
  • Likes Given: 15
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5680 on: September 17, 2018, 09:41:33 PM »
With both Elantras approaching a total of 120,000 miles, nothing has ever gone wrong with them.
How much CO2 is that?
  About 44 tons of CO2 & that emission is due to both, my wife & me in both Elantras. Now take one of the young dock workers who drives his Hummer to work. He BRAGS he only gets 10MPG, & he dumps 168 tons of CO2 into the air every 120,000 miles. So, over 120000 miles, both my wife & I save 124 tons of atmospheric CO2 over the uncaring dock worker. Of course over a lifetime, the dock worker would dump 1050+ tons(more?) of CO2 into the air.
In addition, that doesn't include savings of CO2, due to no parts, repairs & work time pollution percentage, expended in repairs (which Hummers are prone to). Also, saved (& not factored in) are new cost of tires & their pollution index, since we have switched to used tires(purchased for a song or free), which would be moldering in tire dumps (& not giving service), from which we have rescued them. The Hummer driver spends more money on big tires, than I have paid for entire vehicles.  It is incredible the huge millions of good used tires, people abandon for one reason or another.     
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 12:22:37 AM by litesong »

Neven

  • Administrator
  • ASIF Royalty
  • *****
  • Posts: 6499
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 318
  • Likes Given: 214
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5681 on: September 17, 2018, 09:46:29 PM »
Thank the lord for cruise ships and young dock workers helping them clear port.  ::)
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

GoSouthYoungins

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 756
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 35
  • Likes Given: 106
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5682 on: September 17, 2018, 09:50:34 PM »
I also have an Elantra with over 120k, and have had no problems. I'm a firm believer that all cars are bad but that currently the greenest cars are small, reliable, cheap, unsexy ICE vehicles.
big time oops

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13823
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 193
  • Likes Given: 110
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5683 on: September 17, 2018, 10:20:37 PM »
Here’s a map showing what your ICE car’s MPG must be, to be cleaner than an EV powered by that region’s grid.  Remember too that the grids are continually getting cleaner as coal plants close and more renewables come on-line.

(I’d love to see this down to a more local level, and a similar one for Europe, etc., but this is a start.)
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

GoSouthYoungins

  • ASIF Middle Class
  • Posts: 756
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 35
  • Likes Given: 106
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5684 on: September 17, 2018, 10:37:57 PM »
Here’s a map showing what your ICE car’s MPG must be, to be cleaner than an EV powered by that region’s grid.  Remember too that the grids are continually getting cleaner as coal plants close and more renewables come on-line.

(I’d love to see this down to a more local level, and a similar one for Europe, etc., but this is a start.)

Lord have mercy. Back to this study....According to their methodology this car is low emissions to manufacture...
big time oops

litesong

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 20
  • Likes Given: 15
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5685 on: September 18, 2018, 12:29:43 AM »
Thank the lord for.... ships and young dock workers helping them clear port.
Yeah, just a few months ago, some dockworkers were killed & injured by snapping dock lines.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 12:47:42 AM by litesong »

litesong

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 20
  • Likes Given: 15
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5686 on: September 18, 2018, 12:39:15 AM »
Here’s a map showing what your ICE car’s MPG must be, to be cleaner than an EV powered by that region’s grid.
I suspect the map doesn't include CO2 emitted by fuel tankers, just getting fuel to gas stations, so people can conveniently fuel their ICE.

crandles

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2163
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 31
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5687 on: September 18, 2018, 01:29:16 AM »
Why do you believe that the elderly would prefer a solitary journey to one in the company of others?
Terry

Who says they won't be able to if they want and can afford it? If there becomes a choice between current taxi prices for human driven car vs half the price for driverless, would you want everyone to be stuck with only the first of these options or for everyone to have the choice? There is possibility of demand for former choice falling drastically and either pushing up price of that option or even making it too scarce so people are left with only the latter choice. But at least this is the cheaper option so you are less likely to be deprived of mobility because of unaffordability.

sidd

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4345
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 114
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5688 on: September 18, 2018, 05:43:09 AM »
Re: CO2 emitted by fuel tankers

ocean shipping fuel consumption per gallon shipped is tiny, so is rail, most of it comes from tanker trucks runnin last miles. 6000 gallon capacity, 5 mpg, typical drive out west from refinery  or railhead to filling station might be 3-4 hundred miles . Call it a hundred gallons on top of the 6K in the tank. Down in the noise.

sidd
 

oren

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 3353
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 382
  • Likes Given: 842
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5689 on: September 18, 2018, 08:44:23 AM »
Some thoughs re self-driving technology:
A. Lower taxi prices will surely reduce demand for car ownership.
B. Self-driving minibuses could bring affordable public transport to suburban and even rural locations.
C. Self-driving EVs (and buses) could go charge themselves when not in use.
D. Parking needs in dense areas could be reduced by having the car drive away to a parking lot.
E. Pedestrians and cyclists will have a much safer journey.
F. The self-driving vehicle could monitor its cleanliness, its passengers's health etc., in theory at least.

An interesting future, though one that may not come to pass as uptake time might be longer than time-to-collapse. Ask me again in a decade.

crandles

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 2163
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 31
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5690 on: September 18, 2018, 01:26:55 PM »
Curious if the elderly need to bring their own cleaning gear on pickup or if these fan-dangled new driverless taxis are self-cleaning when a drunk has vomited everywhere inside on the prior trip? :)

Driverless car will have credit card details of previous passenger and right to charge them for necessary cleaning services. If someone refuses use of car due to its state then different car goes to pick up the customer, the allegedly dirty car drives to valet service company who photographs for evidence and considers whether it needs a clean allowing last passenger to be charged or doesn't need a clean, car goes to next customer and passenger refusing trip gets charged for two unnecessary trips and the valet company's assessment. I think this creates appropriate incentives that most people will try to leave the car clean and tidy and not accept car in unsuitable state.

Maybe this need to be expanded with customers photographing any minor issues they are prepared to accept and emailing photo to driverless car management company, but I don't see a major issue with creating such systems.

.

Yes one of the best things is the potential to redevelop some of the city centre parking locations that are no longer needed.

Archimid

  • ASIF Upper Class
  • Posts: 1748
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 101
  • Likes Given: 120
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5691 on: September 18, 2018, 01:29:56 PM »
Cameras and a bit of AI can probably monitor cleanliness with enough accuracy to handle most cases.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13823
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 193
  • Likes Given: 110
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5692 on: September 18, 2018, 02:03:39 PM »
Here’s a map showing what your ICE car’s MPG must be, to be cleaner than an EV powered by that region’s grid.  Remember too that the grids are continually getting cleaner as coal plants close and more renewables come on-line.
...

The Cradle-to-Grave study shows conclusively that after the first six months to a year of driving, an EV’s total emissions to date will have equaled a comparable ICE vehicle.
Then, while the EV gets cleaner over time (as the grid gets cleaner, and battery management software improves via updates), the ICE vehicle only get dirtier, as its emissions control equipment ages. (Otherwise, continual emissions testing would not be required!)
Quote
Manufacturing emissions are important, but much less of a factor than fuel emissions.

The emissions estimates presented above compare the use of an EV compared to using a gasoline vehicle. However, there are also emissions associated with the production of these cars, and in general making EVs produces more emissions than a comparable gasoline car. We studied this issue in our “Cleaner Cars From Cradle to Grave” report in 2015 and found that the extra emissions from making an 80-mile range EV (compared to a similar gasoline car) are about 15% higher. However, this extra emissions ‘debt’ is quickly recovered by the savings that accrue while using the electric vehicle.

How quickly the emissions are recovered depends on where the car is charged, but for an EV the size of the Nissan LEAF, we found that the break-even point occurs after 6 to 13 months of use (depending on electric grid region), well shorter than the likely lifespan of the car.
https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/new-numbers-are-in-and-evs-are-cleaner-than-ever
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13823
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 193
  • Likes Given: 110
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5693 on: September 18, 2018, 02:30:29 PM »
Audi’s big reveal of the e-tron in the U.S. yesterday:

Audi launches e-tron electric SUV with $74,800 starting price
https://electrek.co/2018/09/17/audi-launches-e-tron-electric-suv-with-74000-starting-price/
 
Quote
The “Connect” version will enable smart capabilities like time-of-use charging as well as interfacing with a smart solar inverter to charge with solar power if the location is equipped with a solar array.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

TerryM

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4268
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 60
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5694 on: September 18, 2018, 06:59:14 PM »
My local gas station has added Ev charging to the 16 gasoline bays, convenience store, and auto car wash services they have been providing.


They're open 24/7 with access to Hwy 401 & hwy7 & 8.
No restaurant, shopping, bar, or motel within walking distance.


1 - CHAdeMO 500V by 125A High Speed DC charger
1 - Combo High Speed Charger
2 - 35 A by 220V Slow Chargers


The lone attendant on duty last night didn't believe they had seen any use in their first few weeks of availability & was unable to answer any questions re. the chargers. The HS chargers were charging $20/hr.


Terry
Preston, Ont. Canada

Zythryn

  • ASIF Lurker
  • Posts: 59
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2
  • Likes Given: 32
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5695 on: September 18, 2018, 07:02:41 PM »
Here’s a map showing what your ICE car’s MPG must be, to be cleaner than an EV powered by that region’s grid.  Remember too that the grids are continually getting cleaner as coal plants close and more renewables come on-line.

(I’d love to see this down to a more local level, and a similar one for Europe, etc., but this is a start.)

That is actually out of date.  Here is their latest report:
https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/new-data-show-electric-vehicles-continue-to-get-cleaner



As you said, EVs continue to get cleaner.

As for self driving cars, I think those are more than worthwhile if they encourage some multiple car households to become single car households.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13823
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 193
  • Likes Given: 110
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5696 on: September 18, 2018, 07:09:43 PM »
Here’s a map showing what your ICE car’s MPG must be, to be cleaner than an EV powered by that region’s grid.  Remember too that the grids are continually getting cleaner as coal plants close and more renewables come on-line.

(I’d love to see this down to a more local level, and a similar one for Europe, etc., but this is a start.)

That is actually out of date.  Here is their latest report:
https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/new-data-show-electric-vehicles-continue-to-get-cleaner
...

Thanks for the update!
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

  • ASIF Emperor
  • Posts: 13823
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 193
  • Likes Given: 110
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5697 on: September 18, 2018, 08:24:04 PM »
My local gas station has added Ev charging to the 16 gasoline bays, convenience store, and auto car wash services they have been providing.

They're open 24/7 with access to Hwy 401 & hwy7 & 8.
No restaurant, shopping, bar, or motel within walking distance.

1 - CHAdeMO 500V by 125A High Speed DC charger
1 - Combo High Speed Charger
2 - 35 A by 220V Slow Chargers

The lone attendant on duty last night didn't believe they had seen any use in their first few weeks of availability & was unable to answer any questions re. the chargers. The HS chargers were charging $20/hr.

Terry
Preston, Ont. Canada

Hi, Terry!  Is this the station?
If so, the chargers have only been in operation since August 15 or so. 
There have been seven check-ins on Plugshare, with a wide variety of EVs: LEAF, Volt, eGolf, even an Ioniq! 
And of course, not all EVs use the Plugshare app. ;)
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

jacksmith4tx

  • ASIF Citizen
  • Posts: 266
    • View Profile
    • Photon mine
  • Liked: 25
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5698 on: September 19, 2018, 05:32:19 AM »
How fast can you deploy a life saving device like a defibrillator, EpiPen or critical drug?

Drone company Flirtey completed its first delivery flight under a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) pilot program in Reno, NV, the city announced.

The multi-drone delivery demonstration was conducted under the FAA’s Drone Integration Pilot Program (IPP), which gave 10 local governments the authority to fast-track regulatory approvals for drone delivery in order to collect data for more widespread implementation. During the test, a single pilot simultaneously flew several Flirtey drones to deliver automated external defibrillators.

The tests used the company's next-generation drone, designed for heavier payloads over long distances. Flirtey founder and CEO Matthew Sweeny said in a statement that the test was a "major milestone toward scaling drone delivery nationwide," and touted the potential for delivery of medical supplies and equipment in emergencies.


https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/news/reno-nv-conducts-faa-approved-drone-delivery-flight/532451/

While not exactly like having a ambulance deliver the same service I do know it costs thousands per trip to use our local EMT service.
Science is a thought process, technology will change reality.

TerryM

  • ASIF Governor
  • Posts: 4268
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 60
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5699 on: September 19, 2018, 08:56:46 AM »
That's the one Sig, any idea if they will be standard at Canadian Tire stations?


Local VW dealer said they sold out of this years consignment of Ev's last Nov. so there is a market here.
Terry