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Archimid

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5700 on: September 13, 2018, 01:07:43 AM »
Oh no! Red and Green. My arguments fall to the power of font colors! LOL

Quote
So basically if I say that people don’t need hair to survive, you accuse me of wanting to ban hair and execute those who are found with a hair. You are such intellectually dishonest scum.

Great description. I wonder if you have the capacity to apply that to yourself. Let me see:

Article: Audi creates a Carbon neutral manufacturing plant

Your argument: audi paying for some wind and solar does NOT make the manufacturing of a vehicle take any less energy.

That's a blatant nonsequitor.  It's basic physics. but you create a false argument so you can whine and complain that something can't be done.
 
Your use of color now indicates to me that there may be no malice in you. Only ignorance. You can't even catch yourself doing what you accuse others of doing. That so Trumpish that it confused me. 

Quote
So basically your argument morphs from one retort to the next. You are such intellectually dishonest scum.

LOL. You are so blind.

Quote
Me: I believe a steep carbon tax and payments for sequestration will do the trick. However, when I describe what I think this will look like (95%+ less transportation, manufacturing of only durable goods, localized food production).

Archimid: Your solution is a complete fantasy.

95% less transportation? How do you implement that without disrupting food production, education, medical care?

Manufacturing only durable goods? How do you ship your durable goods with only 5% transportation?

localized food production? What happens to areas with high population density? What happens when the local corps fail?
 
Nah. Your solution is a fantasy. Well not really a fantasy, if it is implemented it will result in most of the world population disappearing.

While I agree we need a carbon emissions tax, the technologies that will replace the energy needs of a carbon neutral civilization need to be developed and deployed now and as fast as possible.

Colors really? What a disappointment.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

oren

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5701 on: September 13, 2018, 08:04:59 AM »
Oren, why constantly lecture me and never say a word to intellectually dishonest scum like archimid. My guess is because you hope Tesla succeeds and so you are adverse to criticizing Tesla fanbois. That is really really disappointingly weak.  [and no, im not convinced ICE cars take significantly less energy to manufacture than EVs, but I am convinced the differences are not significant enough to be thought of as solutions or honestly even beneficial stop gap measures]
Off-Topic Alert
If I were Archimid I'd quit this personal flame war a long time ago. I personally do not think you lie, though you post a lot of factual errors (IMHO). It's a big difference. And yet I see him mostly responding to your often off-topic and often inaccurate statements, so if you were to stop making them he would probably stop responding. Besides, your tendency to make personal accusations and over-the-top derision (fanbois, hahahaha etc.) is rather irksome, so I'm not surprised when someone is irked.
About the off-topic part, I tend to agree with you about the need to reduce consumption, but I think you are missing the human nature part (greed, not caring about the future, politics, etc.) that currently prevents it, and instead in your anger you blame Tesla and the Musk Cult as if they are what prevents the managed collapse / degrowth / stopping the BAU that you support. They are not, and this is why many of your posts are in the wrong thread and against the wrong targets. I strongly recommend that you (and all other readers) search this forum for "degrowth", "Managed collapse", "Green BAU" and half the older posts by JimD. Countless threads have discussed this. Here are some examples - this is extremely off-topic here, and will be the last time I derail this thread to try and shift you from straying. If you continue the off-topic derailment I will be convinced you do not want to listen.

The Degrowth imperative
Climate Destabilization: Tragedy of the Markets or Imperial Defence ?
BAU until they peal my cold dead hands from it - one of my very own early posts
BAU until they peal my cold dead hands from it - JimD's response

Read these long posts for a start, but even better read the whole threads from beginning to end. I do this from time to time and it's very educational. A lot of the posters have moved on, so you are missing a lot by only reading the new posts every day. If you feel you have something to add, post in those threads to revive their discussion, and leave this thread for narrower discussions of cars and trucks and transportation news.
End Off-Topic Alert

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5702 on: September 13, 2018, 07:20:46 PM »
And yet I see him mostly responding to your often off-topic and often inaccurate statements, so if you were to stop making them he would probably stop responding. Besides, your tendency to make personal accusations and over-the-top derision (fanbois, hahahaha etc.) is rather irksome, so I'm not surprised when someone is irked.

90% of everything I have written on these threads are responses to inaccurate statements...

someone claims that a steel manufacturer has converted to using solar...WRONG
someone claims that Tesla has a solid business outlook...WRONG
someone claims that EVs are the remedy for GHG emissions...WRONG
someone claims that Audi plant is carbon neutral...WRONG
someone claims that Tesla going private is logical and likely...WRONG
someone claims that industry is on the cusp of greening...WRONG
someone claims that Musk deserves to be believed...WRONG
someone claims that the Tesla bulls aren't biased...WRONG
someone claims that "$420" wasn't a drug reference...WRONG
someone claims that the $7500 expiring won't hurt Tesla...WRONG
someone claims that all Tesla negative info is FUD...WRONG

these are all as objectively obvious things that I can imagine. to let them go unchallenged is a total disservice to the conversation.

I did not go out on a mission to attack ppl. I have been called a liar, an enemy of humanity, a Big-Oil shill.  Guess what? THAT IRKS ME, and it should not be surprising that I'm going to call out the intellectually dishonest bullshitters for what they are. 

On topic (telsa-thread):  11 of the 23 executives named by Teslarati 4 months ago have now left the company (most recently VP of global finance).  there are widespread and wide ranging issues with model 3 deliveries and quality control.  bond yields continue to rise.  production appears to have slowed to between 3k-4k/wk.  the backlog appears to be largely exhausted, and there is significant surplus of certain variants that are not correlated to any current demand.  IMO, 90% chance Tesla is bankrupt by 4/1/2019 (less than a year after Musk pranked about it for April Fools). "Global shortage of red flags being attributed to Tesla."
big time oops

Lurk

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5703 on: September 13, 2018, 08:38:39 PM »
someone claims that you want to force everyone to live in 2 acres and grow their own food..... WRONG
 
Then asks ... Nicolas Maduro is that you?

So I'm not surprised when someone is irked either. :)
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” ― Soren Kierkegaard

magnamentis

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5704 on: September 13, 2018, 09:27:38 PM »
On topic (telsa-thread):  11 of the 23 executives named by Teslarati 4 months ago have now left the company (most recently VP of global finance).  there are widespread and wide ranging issues with model 3 deliveries and quality control.  bond yields continue to rise.  production appears to have slowed to between 3k-4k/wk.  the backlog appears to be largely exhausted, and there is significant surplus of certain variants that are not correlated to any current demand.  IMO, 90% chance Tesla is bankrupt by 4/1/2019 (less than a year after Musk pranked about it for April Fools). "Global shortage of red flags being attributed to Tesla."

assuming that they're doing their best to hide all bad things, i consider the visible/obvious problems the tip of the iceberg and that's the REAL REASON why i believe and say what i'm saying which is more or less what you are saying.

deep underneath the facade it must be boiling because i'd never quit a well paid job in a soaring startup/business as long as the outlook is intact and business ethics are observed. there must be a reason why the "non-rats" escape the (sinking?) ship while some jump once they see the torpedos coming.

only reason that i can imagine other than the above would be if i have serious issues with the boss on a personal level which i have to admit is a possibility as well, perhaps all are true, who knows.
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Archimid

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5705 on: September 13, 2018, 11:24:48 PM »
sorry Oren. You have indeed warned me to leave this alone and I appreciate the concern. But how can I let these people distort reality? sorry I can’t. If these fossil fuel shills are going to spread lies here I will try to correct them. sometimes I gain knowledge but when they get stuck repeating the same lies there is little to gain. Also ASIF probably hates me for feeding the trolls. 

But what can I do. I can’t just ignore them or block them. Then they will contaminate this forum with their lies. I must face them, when I have the strength. Lies are so much powerful than the truth.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5706 on: September 14, 2018, 03:08:30 AM »
Less weight — but also less aerodynamic.

Volvo unveils all-electric and autonomous truck without a cab
https://electrek.co/2018/09/13/volvo-all-electric-autonomous-truck-without-a-cab/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5707 on: September 14, 2018, 05:27:28 AM »
Sorry
But it looks like a sports car that knocked the pins out of a parked trailer & paid a terrible price. :-[
Terry

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5708 on: September 14, 2018, 04:52:17 PM »
Less weight — but also less aerodynamic.

Volvo unveils all-electric and autonomous truck without a cab
https://electrek.co/2018/09/13/volvo-all-electric-autonomous-truck-without-a-cab/

Less aerodynamic than what? I image there is a very large amount of "drag" on a product that is supposed to be produced by an insolvent company...

The number of customers who paid in full weeks ago but don't have their cars continues to grow. It appears that some are being held by vendors, possible as collateral for unpaid bills. And a huge number of cars that are attempted to be delivered to customers are being refused due to clear and obvious defects. Quite a few more get accepted, but the new owners soon find problems and are having trouble getting tesla to fix them.  Many, many lots around the country with thousands of Tesla just stored in variable conditions. The assumptions is that they need serious rework and that for liquidity reasons tesla is choosing to do nothing with them accept hold them as collateral. Vendors, suppiliers, creditors not getting paid (or customers who have paid not getting what they have paid for)...the wheels appear to have come off the wagon faster than forecast. 50% chance telsa files before xmas...which is stunning because it is next year when the big bills start coming due.
big time oops

etienne

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5709 on: September 14, 2018, 06:25:07 PM »
Sorry
But it looks like a sports car that knocked the pins out of a parked trailer & paid a terrible price. :-[
Terry
LOL, I fully agree, and if you think how powerfull the trailer is, it would probably not require much engineering to transform it in a sports car.

oren

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5710 on: September 14, 2018, 10:20:16 PM »
GSY, your "Tesla rumors" sound like total BS. Any objective source reporting this?

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5711 on: September 15, 2018, 12:25:06 AM »
GSY, your "Tesla rumors" sound like total BS. Any objective source reporting this?

Look at the bonds yields. The only companies that have yields like that have gone bankrupt or are on the edge. That should be proof enough. But...

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-tesla-sales-delivery-problems-20180912-story.html

http://www.thedrive.com/news/23588/union-pacific-is-holding-hostage-20-tesla-model-3s-from-owners-awaiting-delivery-report

https://electrek.co/2018/09/09/tesla-model-3-immediate-deliveries-first-come-first-served-basis/

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/09/13/elon-musk-vows-to-fix-teslas-nightmare-customer-response/

https://pilotonline.com/business/consumer/article_f5219417-d4a7-530c-9f88-63ecdd745a9a.html

https://www.ft.com/content/9c6b3468-b863-11e8-b3ef-799c8613f4a1

And now apparently Debtwire (expensive subscription-based analytics company, you won't be able to read) has an article out on tesla. Debtwire only covers distressed debt.

https://twitter.com/Paul_M_Huettner/status/1040686372468731906

When will you people come to your senses are readjust what you interpret as BS?!?
big time oops

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5712 on: September 15, 2018, 07:38:50 AM »
Tesla Bulls...you are in good company.

“Tony Byrd, in charge of guitars, keyboards and Kool-Aid”

“I don’t have anything green on!”

“You lick me, I lick you”
big time oops

oren

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5713 on: September 15, 2018, 09:36:05 AM »
GSY, you write this:
Quote
The number of customers who paid in full weeks ago but don't have their cars continues to grow. It appears that some are being held by vendors, possible as collateral for unpaid bills. 
When asked for a source, you post a bunch of links, as if that settles it. I clicked and this is what I found:
Quote
So the Salt Lake City Service Center had 20 cars shipped via the Union Pacific Railroad. This is their first (and last) time doing this. My car happens to be in that shipment. Apparently the rail yard security won't allow Tesla to retrieve the cars. They've been here for a week.

My original delivery date was Sept 1st. Then it was bumped to Sept 8th because it hadn't left Fremont. Then, it was bumped to the 15th because of the train yard. And now the date has been removed until further notice because they can't get the rail to release the cars and don't know when they will.
This implies nothing of the tall statements you wrote earlier. Delivering thousands of cars a week, a few get lost or stuck in beaurocracy, the company is aware and trying to improve.

Some of your other links (LA, FT) I can't access from here. But to back tall claims you need more than just a link. Why not quote relevant paragraphs?

The only fact you wrote is that the bond yields are high. Indeed, this implies high risk but certainly not a 50% chance of bankruptcy by year-end.

As a general comment, I can't believe a science forum has fallen to this level. This thread has become so muddied because of lack of moderation. Rumor mongering, over-the-top repetitive derision, constant off-topic posts, hogging the thread for no good reason, all of these should not be allowed. If I were Neven, I would have put you on moderation a long time ago, and not because your opinions go against my opinioms (whatever they may be). Because you are disrupting a good discussion.

Neven

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5714 on: September 15, 2018, 02:36:55 PM »
I'm sorry, guys, I unsubscribed from this discussion last week. I find it difficult to moderate this, because I'm somewhat torn on the subject myself and have trouble processing all the propaganda.

I don't want to kick off GSY just for this, even though I agree his style is provocative and as sceptical as he may seem, he doesn't apply the same sceptical standards to the stuff he posts (sometimes backing up statements, sometimes not). But I don't want to moderate and pre-approve his comments either, because I just don't have the time for that.

If I were him, I'd make my point and then just wait for the truth to sink in, occasionally re-iterating my point. There's no sense in posting endless sarcastic rants.

Maybe I should open a separate Tesla thread after all, where people can just post the pro/contra PR stuff and articles, etc, with no discussions on veracity.* The general discussion about the future of EVs can then still take place here.

For instance, what happens if Tesla fails? Who in the auto industry will try and take its place? Or do we get the EV-1 scenario all over again?



---
* Yes, that's what I'll do.
Compare, compare, compare

Neven

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5715 on: September 15, 2018, 02:49:56 PM »
Okay, there's a new Tesla glory/failure thread for posting articles mainly. This thread is for general discussions on EVs (again).

I hope this works. Fingers crossed.  ;)
Compare, compare, compare

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5716 on: September 15, 2018, 03:04:25 PM »
Okay, there's a new Tesla glory/failure thread for posting articles mainly. This thread is for general discussions on EVs (again).

I hope this works. Fingers crossed.  ;)

Thanks, Neven.  Even if I did just have to re-edit two planned posts. ;)
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5717 on: September 15, 2018, 03:07:28 PM »
"The WLTP approval tests have confused production at VW. Now even the sale of the top model is stalled."
VW stops Golf production due to lack of demand
https://amp.handelsblatt.com/unternehmen/industrie/autohersteller-vw-stoppt-golf-produktion-wegen-mangelnder-nachfrage/23063256.html

VW to stop making the iconic Beetle in 2019
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/vw-to-stop-making-the-iconic-beetle-in-2019/

—-

Nissan exits Europe's compact car segment
Nissan is ending sales of two compact cars in Europe and Russia, citing a consumer swing away toward utilities in the segment.
Quote
Nissan stopped building the Pulsar hatchback for Europe in June and will end production of the Almera sedan in Russia later this year, the company said.
The decision was made in response to "a rapidly increasing switch by European customers from traditional vehicle segments to crossovers," Nissan said in a statement. "The story in Russia is similar," a spokesman said. The electric Leaf is the only remaining non-SUV compact car sold by Nissan in Europe.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20180912/COPY01/309129961/nissan-exits-europes-compact-car-segment



“People are sick and tired in Europe of small cars with poor performance engines. Tired of paying 7$ a gallon . Tired of crazy taxes they pay for those small boxes . When [a well-respected EV maker ;) ] puts the foot in Europe properly then Asia the support encountered will be unseen .”
https://twitter.com/florindoc2003/status/1039885612524990464
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5718 on: September 15, 2018, 03:11:32 PM »
When “oilprice.com” is posting articles like this, it’s clear they see the electric revolution is inevitable.

EV Revolution Could Wipe Out $21 Trillion In Oil Revenue
Quote
In oil, Aurora Energy Research predicts that revenues could fall from US$1.5 trillion in 2016 to US$1.1 trillion in 2040 on the back of fast EV adoption combined with major improvements in energy efficiencies. Meanwhile, oil prices could plummet to as little as US$32 a barrel.

This is what could happen under a “Burnout” scenario developed by the research firm that envisages fast growth in EV adoption and equally fast growth in electricity demand on the back of digital tech use driven by the expansion of the Internet of Things.

Under this scenario that might as well be called “Doomsday” as far as it concerns the oil industry, Aurora Research sees the number of EVs on the roads in 2040 at 540 million. For context, another research, from 2016, saw the total number of cars on the road in that year at 2 billion, so EVs would be a pretty solid portion of the total.

As a result of the advent of EVs, crude oil demand will peak long before 2040, in the mid-2020s. By 2040, oil prices will have fallen to US$32. Coal will be doing even worse, with a ton selling for just US$28 thanks to the increased use of low-carbon power generation capacity replacing coal power plants.
https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/EV-Revolution-Could-Wipe-Out-21-Trillion-In-Oil-Revenue.amp.html


This one references the Bloomberg New Energy Finance study:
EVs Could Erase 7 Million Bpd In Demand
https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/EVs-Could-Erase-7-Million-Bpd-In-Demand.html
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5719 on: September 15, 2018, 03:30:08 PM »
Up from 54,000 today.

ChargePoint pledges to deploy 2.5 million electric vehicle charge points by 2025
https://electrek.co/2018/09/14/chargepoint-million-electric-vehicle-charge-points-2025/
Quote
Earlier this year, the company said that it now delivers 8 GWh of electricity in over 1 million electric car charges per month.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5720 on: September 15, 2018, 07:10:14 PM »
Up from 54,000 today.

ChargePoint pledges to deploy 2.5 million electric vehicle charge points by 2025
https://electrek.co/2018/09/14/chargepoint-million-electric-vehicle-charge-points-2025/
Quote
Earlier this year, the company said that it now delivers 8 GWh of electricity in over 1 million electric car charges per month.


Or almost enough energy to allow 1 Tesla Semi to go from Fremont California to Chicago Illinois, then back home to Fremont, per month.
2 KWh/1mile, or 8GWh/4k mile - per Elon Musk.
 Fremont to Chicago = 2,150 miles


If ChargePoint increases it's GWh output as rapidly as it promises to increase it's outlets, by 2025 they will be delivering 20GWh/month. This would allow one Tesla spec. semi to travel 10,000 miles/month.
So by 2025 1 ESemi could drive from Fremont California to Vancouver, then on to St Johns NFL, then back to Vancouver - each month.

That's a lot of electricity to move freight that could have been put on about 1/4 of a flat bed rail car.

Terry

wehappyfew

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5721 on: September 15, 2018, 07:19:56 PM »
Terry, you're off by a factor of 1000 again.

8 GWh = 8,000,000 kWh ... not 8,000 kWh

Therefore 8 GWh is enough for one Tesla semi to travel 4 million miles.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5722 on: September 15, 2018, 10:33:02 PM »
Quote
Norwegian politicians no longer focused on hydrogen cars. It is a big change since 2016, when all political parties supported hydrogen. Tone now is hydrogen “not viable” and EVs “obvious choice”, as reported by business news site E24 today.
https://twitter.com/m_xalher/status/1040923074714132485

http://e24.no/makro-og-politikk/bil/flere-partier-snur-om-hydrogenbiler-foretrekker-elbil/24441516

Via Google Translate:
Quote
According to Dagsavisen , it is only two years since the Right, the Frp, the Left and the KrF announced that they wanted a nationwide network of hydrogen stations. Now the tone is another from KrF's Hans Fredrik Grøvan.

"KrF believes it is important to invest in electric cars in the years to come. The hydrogen car has not proven to be as viable in today's market, he says.
Hyundai first started selling hydrogen cars in Norway before 2015 , before the infrastructure was built

—-
Prof Ray Wills (@ProfRayWills)9/15/18, 5:44 AM
EV growth is ramping fast: simpler tech, simpler build than #hybrids
Hybrid around for >decade, hasn't broken out, so logically soon redundant
#PHEV already eclipsed by #BEV - and is still an ICE hybrid
BEVs will outsell hybrids this year!

Last call on ICE + ICE hybrid 2025
https://twitter.com/profraywills/status/1040899261280378880
Image below.

—-
Audi already advertising e-tron electric SUV ahead of the launch event
https://electrek.co/2018/09/15/audi-advertising-e-tron-electric-suv/

‘starting price of €80,000’ in Germany, and a more ‘realistic’ range of ~250 miles [400km] after updating the figure from the NEDC standard.

—-
Conserving water!
9/14/18, 2:29 PM
Who washes their car in a hurricane?  ;D
https://twitter.com/conservativeptz/status/1040668955646611457
Video at the link.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5723 on: September 15, 2018, 10:52:51 PM »
hey sigmetnow, did petrol burnt for transport go down during the time periods you are discussing? if not, STFU, and stop hoping/pretending that it is all finally working

"but, it is all ramping so so fast." YA, NO SHIT!!! A NEGLIGIBLE PART OF THE ECONOMY CAN SHIFT REALLY FAST. it does not matter
big time oops

oren

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5724 on: September 15, 2018, 11:15:21 PM »
hey sigmetnow, did petrol burnt for transport go down during the time periods you are discussing? if not, STFU, and stop hoping/pretending that it is all finally working

"but, it is all ramping so so fast." YA, NO SHIT!!! A NEGLIGIBLE PART OF THE ECONOMY CAN SHIFT REALLY FAST. it does not matter
If it doesn't matter, why post so many tesponses about it?
And what's with the language (STFU)??

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5725 on: September 15, 2018, 11:19:08 PM »
hey sigmetnow, did petrol burnt for transport go down during the time periods you are discussing? if not, STFU, and stop hoping/pretending that it is all finally working

"but, it is all ramping so so fast." YA, NO SHIT!!! A NEGLIGIBLE PART OF THE ECONOMY CAN SHIFT REALLY FAST. it does not matter
If it doesn't matter, why post so many tesponses about it?
And what's with the language (STFU)??

None of my post purport to be about something they are not. so no, im not interested in STFup; i would rather continue to call out those who claim to support an inherently false premise. good day
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5726 on: September 15, 2018, 11:36:22 PM »
Sustainable Tallahassee sponsored an Electric Car Expo in a church (not mega-church) parking lot today. 

There were 30 or 40 e- and plug-in cars (8 Model 3s), a "truck" (max 25mph vehicle with a flat bed), a city bus, and bicycles, and plenty of folks oohing and awing. 

I stayed late and got a ride in a Model S that seats seven - the owner showed off the acceleration and self-driving capacity of the vehicle; his wife called right at the end of the trip, knowing he'd been out for a drive, cause her phone told her so (It's actually her car.).  A fellow from a factory in Montgomery, AL showed up whose factory makes part of the radiator-like battery cooling system (the ~4" wide metal fins with internal tubes that run the length of the battery pack, so that every cell can be chilled - I remember this from a video posted somewhere up-thread).  He came in a Ford C-Max plug-in hybrid (which I'd never heard of).  One man's Chevy Volt had an inverter plugged in with a fan blowing (it's like 97F here now); another had his Model 3 decked out with an air mattress (non-Tesla) laid out in the back (back seat folded down) and surfboard on top (surfboard reduces mileage by 8%) and said he has stayed at a campground, plugged in, and ran his A/C all night.  The two men with Rad Power bikes said is was by far the best on the market, and less expensive than some, and referred to advice from a local bike shop that services them. One owner 'couldn't wait for a Model 3' and bought a used Model S ('half the sticker price') for his 60-mile (one way) daily commute (we talked about China after I saw his CD favorites included Chinese children's music).  Several of the Volt owners had purchased their cars used, as well.

Thank you, Sustainable Tallahassee!
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litesong

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5727 on: September 16, 2018, 02:36:48 AM »
Seven Reasons Why The Internal Combustion Engine Is A Dead Man Walking.....
Yeah. Lotsa people talking about batt negatives, but improvements are coming rapidly. But no one complains about the wonderfully efficient electric motor...... & how sweetly these motors are being constructed. All ya have ta do, is watch internet or YouTube & the excellent, rapid precision of stator & large motor & vehicle frame constructs & assemblies. Watch Chinese, European, Tesla, Audi, BMW, Hyundai, & Nissan Vids to see the various approaches of robot & personnel integration to put together excellent EV vehicles. 

Archimid

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5728 on: September 16, 2018, 03:07:41 AM »
Audi CO2-Neutral Automobile Production Explained

I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5729 on: September 16, 2018, 05:04:24 AM »
Yeah. Lotsa people talking about batt negatives, but improvements are coming rapidly.

Did you write this in the 1980s? Solar and wind have also been about to break onto the scene in a big way, lol.
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oren

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5730 on: September 16, 2018, 08:31:27 AM »
Seeing as how wind and solar combined have surpassed hydro in your graphic, I think they already broke into the scene, though not in a big way (yet).

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5731 on: September 16, 2018, 09:30:50 AM »
Seeing as how wind and solar combined have surpassed hydro in your graphic, I think they already broke into the scene, though not in a big way (yet).

DAMN. Is that what you see when you look at that graphic? This is even more of an uphill battle than I could have imagined.
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TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5732 on: September 16, 2018, 09:43:06 AM »
Terry, you're off by a factor of 1000 again.

8 GWh = 8,000,000 kWh ... not 8,000 kWh

Therefore 8 GWh is enough for one Tesla semi to travel 4 million miles.


J. H. Christ on a Crutch!


KMG --- KMG --- KMG ---KMG ---KMG


I'll write the next 95 on the blackboard before class is over - I promise.


Thanks again guys, can't imagine why I keep ignoring that "M" between the "K" & "G".
I did the same thing at a dinner this evening. Now I've about a dozen egg heads to apologize to.


Terry

Lurk

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5733 on: September 16, 2018, 10:59:16 AM »
Seeing as how wind and solar combined have surpassed hydro in your graphic, I think they already broke into the scene, though not in a big way (yet).

DAMN. Is that what you see when you look at that graphic? This is even more of an uphill battle than I could have imagined.

There's nothing harder, stronger or more powerful than a belief. Not even a diamond, not even a nuke. Nothing can kill beliefs. They can only to be let go of on the inside first, consciously released, before new better beliefs can be formed and arise and then manifest outwardly in a person's life.

Unfortunately, the sheer shock of discovering one has been holding to a false belief can kill people. And that's not necessarily the person who held the belief but others. 
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” ― Soren Kierkegaard

Neven

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5734 on: September 16, 2018, 11:18:12 AM »
if not, STFU

I don't have a problem with your opinions, but if you don't want things to escalate, you need to put more thought into your style. It would also make your arguments more convincing.

And when I say 'you don't want things to escalate', I mean I don't want things to escalate. I want to be able to unsubscribe from threads without having to coming back again within 48 hours.
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GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5735 on: September 16, 2018, 05:53:35 PM »
if not, STFU

I don't have a problem with your opinions, but if you don't want things to escalate, you need to put more thought into your style. It would also make your arguments more convincing.

And when I say 'you don't want things to escalate', I mean I don't want things to escalate. I want to be able to unsubscribe from threads without having to coming back again within 48 hours.

noted. apologies.

can you chime in occasionally when accusations of shilling for Big Oil get thrown around, or is that seen as valid? I think calling ppl trolls when they are not trolling is an escalation. I think calling people paid shills is an escalation.
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Neven

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5736 on: September 16, 2018, 07:49:05 PM »
can you chime in occasionally when accusations of shilling for Big Oil get thrown around, or is that seen as valid? I think calling ppl trolls when they are not trolling is an escalation. I think calling people paid shills is an escalation.

If it happens too often, I will. But I'm not a policeman.

OK, back on-topic. What would a Tesla filing or bankruptcy mean for EVs? Would someone step in, or would we get another EV-1 scenario?
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GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5737 on: September 16, 2018, 08:49:07 PM »
can you chime in occasionally when accusations of shilling for Big Oil get thrown around, or is that seen as valid? I think calling ppl trolls when they are not trolling is an escalation. I think calling people paid shills is an escalation.

If it happens too often, I will. But I'm not a policeman.

OK, back on-topic. What would a Tesla filing or bankruptcy mean for EVs? Would someone step in, or would we get another EV-1 scenario?

I think there could be significant enough damage to the brand that Tesla may cease to exist. The gigafactory will get bought by somebody, cuz batteries will continue to get more and more important. Not sure if it will be auto related though. The Fremont plant will probably go idle for a while. The supercharger network is the most curious asset. I have no idea.

Tesla has about the same market cap that Enron did. I wouldn't be surprised to see a Tesla bankruptcy burst the global everything bubble. Does the world order survive? Does china lead a new coalition to challenge the West with a gold/silver backed money system? Would there be any hope of addressing climate change with china in the drivers seat? I doubt it. I think we have to hope that we are all totally in the dark, platos cave style, and that some secret group rules everything and tricks us all about everything. But, I doubt it.
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oren

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5738 on: September 16, 2018, 09:42:17 PM »
If Tesla goes bankrupt now, the big auto companies will try to re-bury EVs. And might succeed too. If it goes bankrupt in 2-3 years, re-burial should be impossible.

Archimid

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« Reply #5739 on: September 16, 2018, 09:47:17 PM »
If Tesla goes bankwupt then the advent of the electric car decelerates. The genie is out of the bottle, EV's are better than ICEV's. The world will continue slowly moving in that direction, but not fast enough.

Without Tesla carving automotive market share across all automotive segments car companies will take their time to bring to the market very large volumes of EVs. Someone may eventually emerge as a clear leader and push the rest of the pack, but it will be years before anyone has the EV production capacity Tesla has.

China would certainly have a commanding lead in battery production, but their lack of automotive influence in the west means world wide EV adoption will be one sided for a couple of very vital years.

Also battery adoption for home, comercial, industrial and grid use will slow down.

The difference between the bankwuptcy scenario and the scenario I expect is that the pressure Tesla is placing across automotive and energy markets should generate innovation and an acceleration of the transition away from fossil fuels.

I don't think the Arctic is saved on either scenario and unless geoengineering is used, civilization collapses anyway.

However, the more homes with their own power source, the more resilient we become. The more communities set up with renewable microgrids, the more diversified the risk. The more comercial and government buildings that can at least partially operate on their own power the more civilization will survive.

All of this while at the same time significantly reducing emissions, just in case the Arctic holds long enough for us to remove all that garbage from the air.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

NeilT

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5740 on: September 16, 2018, 10:58:45 PM »
OK, back on-topic. What would a Tesla filing or bankruptcy mean for EVs? Would someone step in, or would we get another EV-1 scenario?

Neven if you had asked that question with the political situation 10 years ago, I think the answer would have been clear.  Today it is not that clear.  Probably the most likely result would be a slowing down of EV production around the world.

Today the question is surrounded by other questions.  Is the EU really serious about the end of new ICE vehicles by 2040?  Is China going to go all in on EV and try to resolve some of their own pollution problems and at the same time create a large enough EV market to support serious sales world wide?  Are states like California going to make laws which outlaw ICE sales and drive the adoption of EV whether the people want them or not?

Also we know that VAG and other manufacturers in the EU only got off as easily as they did over the diesel emissions scandal because they committed to EV production and a transition to EV as the core vehicle product in the next decade and a half.

I think we have long gone past the point where the survival or Tesla, or not, will derail the transition from ICE to EV.  The model has been proven, the technology is there.

At some point we are going to get a breakthrough in battery power which gives us 3 x the deliverable power that Li gives today and at that point we're going to see EV's with a 900 mile range possibility and much cheaper EV's with a 300 mile range and a lot lighter too.

There is simply too much impetus and too many actual products on the market; for EV's to now be tied to the success or failure of Tesla.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5741 on: September 17, 2018, 12:45:53 AM »
The slow death of diesels continues;  the 2019 Nissan LEAF still lacks range improvement;  and a Tesla owner recorded a trip averaging 225 Wh/mile:

BMW cancels the new 540d xDrive after only a few months, and drops diesel options on other all models in the U.S.
BMW cancels all diesels from North America for 2019
Quote
When the 328d goes, it will be the last diesel car available in the U.S. from a German brand. Mercedes-Benz, a carmaker that has sometimes been considered near-synonymous with diesel, offered no 2018 model year diesel cars in the United States. Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche have also done away with diesel-powered offerings. Porsche's diesel engines available in the Cayenne were provided by Volkswagen.
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/09/11/bmw-cancels-diesels-united-states-2019/
(This is not to say that BMW is ready to go all-electric.  They are currently betting on hybrids and “performance oriented gasoline engines.”  ::))

And here is BMW’s EV concept car for 2021:
BMW unveils its iNEXT next-gen electric crossover concept, describes it as ‘building block for the future’
https://electrek.co/2018/09/15/bmw-inext-electric-crossover-concept/


Nissan announces 2019 LEAF US pricing, says longer-range version available ‘in the future’
https://electrek.co/2018/09/14/nissan-leaf-2019-us-pricing-longer-range-version/
Starts at a MSRP of $29,990, same as 2018.  The much-anticipated longer-range version “will be available in the future” — but no details were released.


Tesla recently offered owners a free trial of Autopilot.  (They’ve done this before, so don’t freak. ;))  This owner used the opportunity to test their car’s energy efficiency:
“During the 2 week AP trial, I tracked our #Model3 energy consumption. Using AP as much as possible and on a road trip to the coast, the @Tesla Model 3 is still more efficient than our leaf. …”
https://twitter.com/snoozethroughf1/status/1041054665461260288
225 Wh/mile.  Image at the link.
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jacksmith4tx

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5742 on: September 17, 2018, 02:49:58 AM »
Several of the Volt owners had purchased their cars used, as well.

Thank you, Sustainable Tallahassee!
Thanks for the trip report Tor. We have a group here in DFW that sponsors EV days and solar home tours too. http://www.ntreg.org/

I think I made a Volt sale yesterday. The lawnmower guy working across the street came over and asked me a lot of questions about my Volt because his wife wants one. I gave him ride in my car and he seemed pretty impressed. I emailed him the names of some good websites to shop for used and lease returns and told him the best deals are seasonal and linked with annual lease promotions.

Earlier this year Consumer Reports said the Volt has the single highest customer satisfaction rating-- 93% of any car in the market, even higher than the Porsche 911 with 91%. I guess I should enjoy it while it lasts as Chevy hasn't committed to Volt production beyond 2022.

PS: I have a 1500 watt AC pure sine wave inverter I can plug into my Volt and run my critical loads if the grid fails. Unfortunately my solar panels shut down if the grid goes down so this is still not optimal solution. A work in progress.
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GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5743 on: September 17, 2018, 06:00:19 AM »
The slow death of diesels continues.

Tesla recently offered owners a free trial of Autopilot.  (They’ve done this before, so don’t freak. ;)

Diesel, maybe. But gasoline, no. 2018 is projected to see the most ICE vehicle sales ever. (who cares about the specific weight of the fuel for used in ICE vehicles???)

Despite the hype, Tesla is way behind in autopilot. Many car companies are ahead of Tesla, and there are even some companies who no one has ever heard that Tesla is behind. Tesla has been taking payments from customers for FSD (full self driving) for about 2 years, even though the tech doesn't exist. They claim the customers are paying for the hardware which will be capable of getting updated to FSD once it exist. Of course, how is anyone supposed to know what hardware is going to be required for some yet unrealized tech. In fact, on the most recent earnings call, Tesla admitted they had a new component which will be necessary for FSD. But that's just a little chip or something. There will have to be sensors and who knows what else.

Please stop posting this, EV-revolution-now, Tesla-is-amazing BS. I don't enjoy refuting it, but I will not let it echo around totally unaddressed making everyone ill-informed.
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oren

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5744 on: September 17, 2018, 07:57:56 AM »
GSY - so you are posting out of concern of anyone being ill-informed, and this is why you respond to anything at all that mentions Tesla? I am sure the forum thanks you for your concern.
In this case though,  the point of the post was driving an EV using only 0.225 kWh/mile, not a discussion of Tesla's AP.

GoSouthYoungins

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« Reply #5745 on: September 17, 2018, 08:44:34 AM »
the point of the post was driving an EV using only 0.225 kWh/mile, not a discussion of Tesla's AP.

okay  ;)
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Archimid

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5746 on: September 17, 2018, 01:21:52 PM »
Quote
Despite the hype, Tesla is way behind in autopilot. Many car companies are ahead of Tesla, and there are even some companies who no one has ever heard that Tesla is behind.

Oh yeah way behind. Except for numbers of people using the software, numbers of real world miles driven, roads in which it can be used, sales. And let's ignore the thousands of new users joining Tesla's Autopilot fleet with almost every Model 3. Totally behind I tell you. Totally behind. /s

The only technology even close to Tesla is GM Cruise. It can only be used on the relatively few roads GM mapped. They only sell this in one very low volume model.

Waymo keeps self driving in very limited roads and using simulated driven miles for data (big mistake). 

All the companies have a similar thing to Autopilot but they are all limited to lower speeds or particular road scenarios. I don't see any real fleet learning from any other company.

Tesla's fleet learning is far ahead of the competition and increasing with every Model 3.
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TerryM

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5747 on: September 17, 2018, 01:27:14 PM »
Are self driving autos something that we need, or even want?


Terry

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« Reply #5748 on: September 17, 2018, 01:44:59 PM »
Electric for All

https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/stories/now-the-crucial-phase-begins-4191

Quote

EVs are still part of a niche market. What’s missing to bring about the breakthrough?

Thomas Ulbrich: Basically, there are two types of EVs at the moment: the first has long ranges and digital connectivity, but is very expensive. The second is more or less affordable, but often not particularly attractive. People want both, though: a great electric car at an affordable price. That will bring about the breakthrough for EVs. And that is precisely what we will be putting on the road with the I.D.

How are you going about it?

Christian Senger: With the modular electric toolkit (MEB) we have developed a platform designed specifically for electric cars. The I.D. models aren’t combustion engine versions that have been converted, they are 100%, thoroughbred electric vehicles. And they will always be online and upgrade- and update-ready. So we’re making optimal use of the possibilities this technology brings …

Thomas Ulbrich: … and creating massive economies of scale at the same time. Some 10 million Group vehicles will be based on the MEB in the first wave alone. The MEB is the economic and technological backbone of the electric car for all.
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Neven

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Re: Cars, cars and more cars. And trucks, and....
« Reply #5749 on: September 17, 2018, 02:53:07 PM »
Are self driving autos something that we need, or even want?

Terry

It may be a good idea for motorways to increase efficiency, reduce accidents and congestion, etc. Some have espoused the idea that far less vehicles are needed if cars could self-drive and be shared more easily. I don't know about that, but I don't live in a city, so my needs are different.
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